I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately align my TS
blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link below, to combat this
problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist 'zero' the indicator at my
jointer fence (which I know to be 90o) and then place it against the TS
blade. The slightest turn of the TS wheel causes a big move at the
indicator dial. I'm sure most have you have thought of this already, but it
took me a while

Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align my
blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being crazy?

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/jigsfixtures.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

Stoutman (in ) said:

| I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately
| align my TS blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link
| below, to combat this problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist
| 'zero' the indicator at my jointer fence (which I know to be 90o)
| and then place it against the TS blade. The slightest turn of the
| TS wheel causes a big move at the indicator dial. I'm sure most
| have you have thought of this already, but it took me a while
|
| Question:
| After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and
| re-measure, guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate).
| Should I re-align my blade when using my sled? Should I make a new
| sled? Am I being crazy?
|
| http://www.garagewoodworks.com/jigsfixtures.htm

Er... Is it possible that the top surface of your crosscut sled isn't
exactly parallel to the saw table?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Er... Is it possible that the top surface of your crosscut sled isn't
exactly parallel to the saw table?

Yep, that's what I suspect. The sled is made from 1/4" hardboard and is a
little too flimsy. I think I need to make a new one with a more rigid
surface. 1/2" ply?



--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Stoutman (in ) said:

|| Er... Is it possible that the top surface of your crosscut sled
|| isn't exactly parallel to the saw table?
|
| Yep, that's what I suspect. The sled is made from 1/4" hardboard
| and is a little too flimsy. I think I need to make a new one with
| a more rigid surface. 1/2" ply?

Up to you. My first guesses would be that either there's some debris
between the table and the sled; or that the sled's runners are riding
on the bottom of the table slot and/or on debris in the slot) and
lifting the hardboard just a little bit - in which case I'd try
sanding a bit off the runners.

My crosscut sled uses 1/4" (0.022") cheap plywood - but since the
runners don't touch the bottom of the slots everything seems to stay
squared.

Your original rationale for choosing the 1/4" hardboard was probably a
good one. Don't be in a big rush to replace it.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Should that have not read .220?
"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Stoutman (in ) said:
My crosscut sled uses 1/4" (0.022") cheap plywood

CW (in t) said:

| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
| ...
|| Stoutman (in ) said:
|| My crosscut sled uses 1/4" (0.022") cheap plywood
| Should that have not read .220?

Yeah, +/- 0.00019" before I sneezed on it.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:16:13 +0000, Stoutman wrote:

I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately align my TS
blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link below, to combat this
problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist 'zero' the indicator at my
jointer fence (which I know to be 90o) and then place it against the TS
blade. The slightest turn of the TS wheel causes a big move at the
indicator dial. I'm sure most have you have thought of this already, but it
took me a while

Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align my
blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being crazy?

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/jigsfixtures.htm


This question is sort of off on a tangent ... but why the nails in that
jig? I'd like to know your reasoning for them. They look like a fragile
thing sticking way out in harms way when all you really needed to do was
to use a good piece of hardwod and cut a convex shape in the face,
possibly driving a couple of screws or pieces of brass rod flush with the
faces to provide wear points.

Hang the plunger out a little further and measure acute angles using a
sine bar.

You and Ed have got my creative juices going. While I WANT his gauge, I
think I can adapt stuff I already own to make up a 'good enough' gauge of
my own until I can afford his.

In fact, I think I've got a piece of honduran rosewood just asking for
something constructive to do.

Bill

This question is sort of off on a tangent ... but why the nails in that
jig? I'd like to know your reasoning for them. They look like a fragile
thing sticking way out in harms way when all you really needed to do was
to use a good piece of hardwod and cut a convex shape in the face,
possibly driving a couple of screws or pieces of brass rod flush with the
faces to provide wear points.

Its much easier to smack in two nails than cut a convex shape. The nails
work better than expected. Try it!

Hang the plunger out a little further and measure acute angles using a
sine bar.

Yep. Thought of this. That's for Dial Indicator Jig 2.0

You and Ed have got my creative juices going. While I WANT his gauge, I
think I can adapt stuff I already own to make up a 'good enough' gauge of
my own until I can afford his.

Ditto.


In fact, I think I've got a piece of honduran rosewood just asking for
something constructive to do.

Try what I did. You will love it.



Bill

Bill wrote:
This question is sort of off on a tangent ... but why the nails in that
jig? I'd like to know your reasoning for them. They look like a fragile
thing sticking way out in harms way when all you really needed to do was
to use a good piece of hardwod and cut a convex shape in the face,
possibly driving a couple of screws or pieces of brass rod flush with the
faces to provide wear points.

These are fixed references for the measurement. Point contact reduces
the possibility that some sort of debris would get caught between the
jig and the blade and cause error. A convex shape would provide line
contact and still be superior to a full surface contact but not quite
as good as two point contact.


Hang the plunger out a little further and measure acute angles using a
sine bar.

I can't quite picture what you mean...

You and Ed have got my creative juices going. While I WANT his gauge, I
think I can adapt stuff I already own to make up a 'good enough' gauge of
my own until I can afford his.

In fact, I think I've got a piece of honduran rosewood just asking for
something constructive to do.

Absolutely! Go for it!

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:23:24 -0800, ejb wrote:


Hang the plunger out a little further and measure acute angles using a
sine bar.

I can't quite picture what you mean...

And with good reason ... I was wrong ... it won't work. What I had in mind
was to use a sine bar and jo-blocks (which I already own) instead of the
fixed angle blocks you offer on your website (which I do NOT already own).

But the design I had in mind won't work.

Type first, think later. :-)
Bill

Why does everyone have to make fancy little jigs that measure to within a
thou. You are working with wood not engineering a bearing shaft. First
argument on jig is what is to say that the jointer fence is set accuratly?
Secondly I am sure the every one has (or at least should have) a tool in
their kit designed to set the blade and anything else for that matter at 90
deg. For those of you who do not know what it is called or what it is used
for it is called a square. It looks like a funny L shaped piece of steel.
You sit it in the table and hold it up against the blade. If you see light
at the top or the bottom the blade isn't at 90 deg so just adjust the blade
till you see no light between the blade and square. Very simple, takes
little time to dig out of draw or off the wall and works every time. And for
those who really want to be anal about it and accurate to within a thou just
use a good engineers square.


"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
. ..
I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately align my TS
blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link below, to combat this
problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist 'zero' the indicator at my
jointer fence (which I know to be 90o) and then place it against the TS
blade. The slightest turn of the TS wheel causes a big move at the
indicator dial. I'm sure most have you have thought of this already, but
it
took me a while

Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align
my
blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being crazy?

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/jigsfixtures.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 20:07:27 +1100, "Paul D"
wrote:

Why does everyone have to make fancy little jigs that measure to within a
thou. You are working with wood not engineering a bearing shaft. First
argument on jig is what is to say that the jointer fence is set accuratly?
Secondly I am sure the every one has (or at least should have) a tool in
their kit designed to set the blade and anything else for that matter at 90
deg. For those of you who do not know what it is called or what it is used
for it is called a square. It looks like a funny L shaped piece of steel.
You sit it in the table and hold it up against the blade. If you see light
at the top or the bottom the blade isn't at 90 deg so just adjust the blade
till you see no light between the blade and square. Very simple, takes
little time to dig out of draw or off the wall and works every time. And for
those who really want to be anal about it and accurate to within a thou just
use a good engineers square.

Gotta agree with you there, Paul. I have a decent square hanging off
almost every tool in the shop. When I misplace one (or in the course
of a large project, all of them) I've even been known to use a speed
square.

It's really never been a problem- but if it were one, I don't think
I'd make a jig- I'd just carefully reset the positive stops.

Gotta agree with you there, Paul.

Have you tried what i did? If not, I'm not sure you can agree with Paul.


I have a decent square hanging off
almost every tool in the shop. When I misplace one (or in the course
of a large project, all of them) I've even been known to use a speed
square.

It's really never been a problem- but if it were one, I don't think
I'd make a jig- I'd just carefully reset the positive stops.

Setting the stops on my saw is a PITA!! Did you see my saw?

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:49:31 GMT, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

Gotta agree with you there, Paul.

Have you tried what i did? If not, I'm not sure you can agree with Paul.

Well, sure I can- considering the effort and cost involved in going
out to buy a dial indicator of any sort, and then dedicating it to
squaring my saw blade, it comes out to a *lot* more work than just
using the squares that are already there and ready for use.

I'm glad it works for you, though. If it makes your hobby more
enjoyable, that's all you need to worry about.

I have a decent square hanging off
almost every tool in the shop. When I misplace one (or in the course
of a large project, all of them) I've even been known to use a speed
square.

It's really never been a problem- but if it were one, I don't think
I'd make a jig- I'd just carefully reset the positive stops.

Setting the stops on my saw is a PITA!! Did you see my saw?

Only the top, but it doesn't look too bad from that view. From what
your pictures show, it appears to be cast-iron- so I'm assuming it's
not a $100 benchtop special. But, I may be spoiled with my saw's
system, so I'll cheerfully take the suggestion back.

It's really just the dial indicator that gives me pause- I work in a
machine shop, and we use squares to check for square. There are some
very nice adjustable Starret ones that will measure to 1/100 of a
degree and have magnifying lenses on them to make the marks readable
for setup, but there no dial indicators to be found when measuring the
angles. In-process checks are done with regular old squares.

Most of those parts are going to very discerning customers who are not
shy about rejecting anything that is less than absolutely perfect- so
it's not as though we're able to just do a half-assed job.

It just seems like overkill to use a more complex and precise
measurement system to set up a tablesaw than what is customarily used
for machine shop work (note the use of "precise"- the accuracy of a
system using nails as stops is a little shady). After a few passes,
I've had enough sap built up on a blade (depending on the wood) to
affect that level of precision. But as noted above, if it really
makes your shop time easier and more enjoyable, that's reason enough
for it.

--
Stoutman Well, sure I can- considering the effort and cost involved in
going
out to buy a dial indicator of any sort, and then dedicating it to
squaring my saw blade, it comes out to a *lot* more work than just
using the squares that are already there and ready for use.

Dial indicators are cheap and you can use them for a bunch of stuff.

The indicator is FASTER and EASIER than using a square and has the added
advantage of being more ACCURATE.

Why not?

Do you still use a Slide Rule?

SNIP

Prometheus wrote:

Only the top, but it doesn't look too bad from that view. From what
your pictures show, it appears to be cast-iron- so I'm assuming it's
not a $100 benchtop special. But, I may be spoiled with my saw's
system, so I'll cheerfully take the suggestion back.

It's really just the dial indicator that gives me pause- I work in a
machine shop, and we use squares to check for square. There are some
very nice adjustable Starret ones that will measure to 1/100 of a
degree and have magnifying lenses on them to make the marks readable
for setup, but there no dial indicators to be found when measuring the
angles. In-process checks are done with regular old squares.

What kind of precision does your machine shop provide. Most modern
machine shops use Optical Comparators, Sine Bar & Indicator and Chordal
Measuring Machines to check angles. Regular old squares are used by
woodworkers, not machinists.

Most of those parts are going to very discerning customers who are not
shy about rejecting anything that is less than absolutely perfect- so
it's not as though we're able to just do a half-assed job.

"Absolutely perfect" cannot be obtained using regular old squares. If
your shop uses regular old squares to check critical dimensions then the
work put out is something less than precise.

It just seems like overkill to use a more complex and precise
measurement system to set up a tablesaw than what is customarily used
for machine shop work (note the use of "precise"- the accuracy of a
system using nails as stops is a little shady). After a few passes,
I've had enough sap built up on a blade (depending on the wood) to
affect that level of precision. But as noted above, if it really
makes your shop time easier and more enjoyable, that's reason enough
for it.

The dial indicator jig is an alternate method. No one is twisting your
arm to use it. If you prefer to sight the table saw blade in with a
plain old square then continue to do so. No one is knocking you. Just
remember there is no need to knock someone else who offers and alternate
method for setting the table saw blade to 90 degrees.

Rick

Prometheus wrote:

It's really just the dial indicator that gives me pause- I work in a
machine shop, and we use squares to check for square. There are some
very nice adjustable Starret ones that will measure to 1/100 of a
degree and have magnifying lenses on them to make the marks readable
for setup, but there no dial indicators to be found when measuring the
angles. In-process checks are done with regular old squares.

Hmmmm...... You are saying that there is an adjustable square from
Starrett that measures to 1/100 of a degree? If it's a machinist's
protractor, then it's not a "square" and it uses a vernier scale
graduated to 5 minutes of arc. Never seen one graduated in 100ths of a
degree (or any other decimal fraction of a degree). Always degrees and
minutes. Maybe you could browse through the Starrett catalog and let
us know which product it is:

http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/home/home.asp

And, are you saying that nobody in this shop uses indicators on sine
bars or angle blocks? They just use this "adjustable square" to set
angles? And, never with an indicator? Frankly, I'm having some
trouble picturing this. I'm inclined to think that this "machine shop"
comes from the imagination of a woodworker.

Most of those parts are going to very discerning customers who are not
shy about rejecting anything that is less than absolutely perfect- so
it's not as though we're able to just do a half-assed job.

You say "absolutely perfect". I'm afraid your shop probably wouldn't
get hired by most of the companies here in Boise (HP, Micron, etc.).
And, a machinist who doesn't use an indicator to align a vise, tram the
spindle, or check a sine plate setting probably wouldn't get hired by
most of the machine shops around here (except to operate that tool with
a long wooden handle and a brush mounted on one end (broom) or for
collant reservoir maintenance (clean out sumps)). I can't imagine what
would happen to a person who tried to use a square to check a spindle
tram.

It just seems like overkill to use a more complex and precise
measurement system to set up a tablesaw than what is customarily used
for machine shop work (note the use of "precise"- the accuracy of a
system using nails as stops is a little shady).

You might be surprised to see what sort of instruments use reference
points which resemble the nails that Stoutman used. I think that it's
a rather insightful feature of his jig which solves a problem which
isn't obvious to people unfamiliar with Metrology.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Prometheus wrote:
Gotta agree with you there, Paul. I have a decent square hanging off
almost every tool in the shop. When I misplace one (or in the course
of a large project, all of them) I've even been known to use a speed
square.

It's really never been a problem- but if it were one, I don't think
I'd make a jig- I'd just carefully reset the positive stops.

This reminds me of a visit I paid to a local professional shop many
years ago. The owner basically said the same thing to me. "Why do I
need your jig when I can just use a square?" So, I walked over to his
saw and started cranking on the blade tilt so that I could demonstrate.
Suddenly I heard this loud scream: "STOP! What the hell are you
doing?!". I was really startled by this and turned around quickly to
see the look of sheer panic and horror on this guys face. He then got
really mad at me for disturbing the setting on his "square cutting"
table saw. You see, he had two saws in the shop. One was very
carefully adjusted (using a square a a lot of test cuts) to exactly 90
degrees. The other was used for cutting angles. After I showed him
how easy it was to return the setting to perfectly square (or any other
angle), he wrote me a check.

Depending on the sort of work you do, a precise setting might be so
important that you would invest thousands in a duplicate machine (this
guy's "square cutting" table saw). Or, you might be quite satisfied
with the results you get from a speed square.

By the way, I long ago abandon the use of the stops on my blade tilt.
On more than one occasion I discovered that they had become covered in
sawdust and the setting was no longer accurate. Unfortunately the
discovery was made after the cut. Now I just back them off completely
and every setting that requires accuracy is checked with an Aligner.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

On 8 Nov 2006 16:00:42 -0800, wrote:


Prometheus wrote:
Gotta agree with you there, Paul. I have a decent square hanging off
almost every tool in the shop. When I misplace one (or in the course
of a large project, all of them) I've even been known to use a speed
square.

It's really never been a problem- but if it were one, I don't think
I'd make a jig- I'd just carefully reset the positive stops.

This reminds me of a visit I paid to a local professional shop many
years ago. The owner basically said the same thing to me. "Why do I
need your jig when I can just use a square?" So, I walked over to his
saw and started cranking on the blade tilt so that I could demonstrate.
Suddenly I heard this loud scream: "STOP! What the hell are you
doing?!". I was really startled by this and turned around quickly to
see the look of sheer panic and horror on this guys face. He then got
really mad at me for disturbing the setting on his "square cutting"
table saw. You see, he had two saws in the shop. One was very
carefully adjusted (using a square a a lot of test cuts) to exactly 90
degrees. The other was used for cutting angles. After I showed him
how easy it was to return the setting to perfectly square (or any other
angle), he wrote me a check.

Depending on the sort of work you do, a precise setting might be so
important that you would invest thousands in a duplicate machine (this
guy's "square cutting" table saw). Or, you might be quite satisfied
with the results you get from a speed square.

By the way, I long ago abandon the use of the stops on my blade tilt.
On more than one occasion I discovered that they had become covered in
sawdust and the setting was no longer accurate. Unfortunately the
discovery was made after the cut. Now I just back them off completely
and every setting that requires accuracy is checked with an Aligner.

To a certain extent, I can see your, and the OP's point. There's
nothing wrong with getting your tools set up carefully and doing high
quality work.

My response to the idea is informed by a realization I had when I was
first building my shop- I was reading a lot of woodworking magazines,
and reading the newsgroups, and found that with all the endless debate
regarding precision and which tools were the absolute "best", I
started to despair that I would never be able to make anything nicer
than a half-assed birdhouse or magazine rack. For several months, I
had myself so worked up over the whole deal that I didn't actually do
any woodworking at all- having convinced myself that I should wait
until I could afford new and better tools to replace the ones I
already had so I didn't just ruin the expensive wood I had bought.

Of course, with the shop sitting idle, but there for use nonetheless,
I eventually got over it a little, and had a project I really needed
to do. To my surprise, it came out just fine, even with tools I had
been told were garbage over and over again by the glossy pictures in
magazines, and intensely precise woodworkers here and on other forums
that were agonizing over the .001" of deviation on their table saw
tops. Boy, if you were to see the stuff I had availible for use back
then, you'd probably declare it not only chintzy, but possibly
dangerous to boot after reading threads like this.

So, the response is really directed less at you and Swingman than at
those beginners that might be lurking and reading this thread. It's
just a sanity check and reminder that while a guy *can* tune up their
equipment until it's good enough to manufacture aircraft, it's not an
absolute requirement for making something that is functional and
attractive. The jig is a neat idea, but I still feel it is probably
overkill for myself and most others.

No intent to start a ****ing match over it, or hurt anyone's feelings-
just a reminder that it's not always necessary to have the absolute
best to make good product.

Prometheus wrote:

To a certain extent, I can see your, and the OP's point. There's
nothing wrong with getting your tools set up carefully and doing high
quality work.

Then why the following rant?

My response to the idea is informed by a realization I had when I was
first building my shop- I was reading a lot of woodworking magazines,
and reading the newsgroups, and found that with all the endless debate
regarding precision and which tools were the absolute "best", I
started to despair that I would never be able to make anything nicer
than a half-assed birdhouse or magazine rack. For several months, I
had myself so worked up over the whole deal that I didn't actually do
any woodworking at all- having convinced myself that I should wait
until I could afford new and better tools to replace the ones I
already had so I didn't just ruin the expensive wood I had bought.

Of course, with the shop sitting idle, but there for use nonetheless,
I eventually got over it a little, and had a project I really needed
to do. To my surprise, it came out just fine, even with tools I had
been told were garbage over and over again by the glossy pictures in
magazines, and intensely precise woodworkers here and on other forums
that were agonizing over the .001" of deviation on their table saw
tops. Boy, if you were to see the stuff I had availible for use back
then, you'd probably declare it not only chintzy, but possibly
dangerous to boot after reading threads like this.

So, the response is really directed less at you and Swingman than at
those beginners that might be lurking and reading this thread. It's
just a sanity check and reminder that while a guy *can* tune up their
equipment until it's good enough to manufacture aircraft, it's not an
absolute requirement for making something that is functional and
attractive. The jig is a neat idea, but I still feel it is probably
overkill for myself and most others.

No one suggested that the indicator jig was the only method or even
needed. The original poster merely suggested that his new found jig
worked well for him.

No intent to start a ****ing match over it, or hurt anyone's feelings-
just a reminder that it's not always necessary to have the absolute
best to make good product.

No one said you had to have the best. This is your erroneous assumption.

Prometheus wrote:
So, the response is really directed less at you and Swingman than at
those beginners that might be lurking and reading this thread. It's
just a sanity check and reminder that while a guy *can* tune up their
equipment until it's good enough to manufacture aircraft, it's not an
absolute requirement for making something that is functional and
attractive. The jig is a neat idea, but I still feel it is probably
overkill for myself and most others.

Beginners need to learn about the tolerances needed to do the sort of
work that they want to do. They need to know how to properly check,
setup, and adjust their machines to achieve those tolerances. When
they know these things, then they can make an intelligent decision
concerning the adequacy of their tools and machines. It's not about
overkill, it's about knowing what it takes to do the job right.

The situation you suffered was from a lack of knowledge and expertise.
You didn't know what tolerances your projects needed. You didn't know
how to properly check, align, and setup your machines. So, you didn't
know if they could do the work. Everything you read in newsgroups and
forums rattled you because you had no basis from which to judge. You
eventually just dove in and hoped for the best. Trial and error.
Fortunately, you found out that your machines could do the work.
Essentially this is your message to the beginners. "Dive in and hope
for the best. You might be surprised like I was and find out that your
tools are good enough."

The problem is this: Some people struggle for years trying to make
things. They read stuff like this and blame their skills or waste
money on all sorts of stupid plastic gadgets from the catalogs. Darn
few of them ever wander in my direction (where they can learn the
things they need to know) because there are so many people putting down
intelligent solutions in favor of "trial and error", "test cuts", and
all other manner of ignorant nonsense. Most just give up on
woodworking because they think that the "skills" are beyond their
ability. And, the few that make it naturally join the ignorant chorus
against intelligent solutions. After all, if you don't learn it the
hard way, then you're cheating. Right?

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

"Paul D" wrote in message
...
Why does everyone have to make fancy little jigs that measure to within a
thou.

It's not just for thousands. Its SPEED. I can set my blade to 90 with this
jig faster than it takes you to bend down to squint at your "funny L shaped
piece of steel".
I just slap it against my blade and look at the dial. Turn one way or the
other on the adjustment nob and I'm there. And I 'know I'm there'.

I find it a pain in the arse to hold a square against a blade and squint for
light on the top and bottom as I adjsust the angle.

You are working with wood not engineering a bearing shaft. First
argument on jig is what is to say that the jointer fence is set accuratly?

It is much easier to hold a square againsta a jointer fence and set to 90
than it is to set a square against a blade on a TS (for me anyway). Plus my
jointer is set at 90 and stays at 90 90% of the time.

Secondly I am sure the every one has (or at least should have) a tool in
their kit designed to set the blade and anything else for that matter at
90
deg. For those of you who do not know what it is called or what it is used
for it is called a square. It looks like a funny L shaped piece of steel.

I understand your tendency to knock what I did, but before you get the
straight jacket ready for me, TRY IT! You will never slap a square against
your TS blade again.

You sit it in the table and hold it up against the blade. If you see light
at the top or the bottom the blade isn't at 90 deg so just adjust the
blade
till you see no light between the blade and square. Very simple, takes
little time to dig out of draw or off the wall and works every time. And
for
those who really want to be anal about it and accurate to within a thou
just
use a good engineers square.

Its not anal. Its lazyness. It is much faster and easier to use my jig
than to use a square. Not sure about that? Try it!!



"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
. ..
I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately align my
TS
blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link below, to combat this
problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist 'zero' the indicator at my
jointer fence (which I know to be 90o) and then place it against the TS
blade. The slightest turn of the TS wheel causes a big move at the
indicator dial. I'm sure most have you have thought of this already, but
it
took me a while

Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align
my
blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being crazy?

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/jigsfixtures.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

In article , "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

"Paul D" wrote in message
...
Why does everyone have to make fancy little jigs that measure to within a
thou.

It's not just for thousands. Its SPEED. I can set my blade to 90 with this
jig faster than it takes you to bend down to squint at your "funny L shaped
piece of steel".
I just slap it against my blade and look at the dial. Turn one way or the
other on the adjustment nob and I'm there. And I 'know I'm there'.

I'm missing something here, BIG TIME. Maybe the coffee hasn't kicked in yet
this morning... but how do you know it's square? Help me out on this one.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

I'm missing something here, BIG TIME. Maybe the coffee hasn't kicked in yet
this morning... but how do you know it's square? Help me out on this one.

It's calibrated against a known-square reference--in this case the
jointer fence. Zero the indicator at that point, take it to the saw,
get blade roughly vertical, then adjust the tilt so the indicator reads
zero again.

Chris

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

I'm missing something here, BIG TIME. Maybe the coffee hasn't kicked in yet
this morning... but how do you know it's square? Help me out on this one.

It's calibrated against a known-square reference--in this case the
jointer fence. Zero the indicator at that point, take it to the saw,
get blade roughly vertical, then adjust the tilt so the indicator reads
zero again.

Gotcha. And the known-square reference is established.... by using an accurate
square, I imagine. Seems to me that it's easier to just use that accurate
square to set the table saw, too... but whatever works...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:46:50 GMT, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:


"Paul D" wrote in message
...
Why does everyone have to make fancy little jigs that measure to within a
thou.

It's not just for thousands. Its SPEED. I can set my blade to 90 with this
jig faster than it takes you to bend down to squint at your "funny L shaped
piece of steel".
I just slap it against my blade and look at the dial. Turn one way or the
other on the adjustment nob and I'm there. And I 'know I'm there'.

Speed? I never took me that long to use a square, but if you're
looking for speed, why not use the positive stops in the saw? Mine
will put the blade within a 1/4 degree of square or so every time-
without any particular fiddling around. I usually just verify it
every so often to make sure the stop hasn't moved.

I find it a pain in the arse to hold a square against a blade and squint for
light on the top and bottom as I adjsust the angle.

Like I said, I think having a jig to set it square is a bit much, but
I can see one being handy for setting angles.

Paul D wrote:
Why does everyone have to make fancy little jigs that measure to within a
thou. You are working with wood not engineering a bearing shaft.

It's for machine setup, not workpiece tolerances. I don't think that
anybody here (except perhaps Mr. Strickland) believes that wood can (or
should) be worked to within thousandths of an inch. The idea is to
provide a very easy to read method for eliminating guesswork in a
setup. Eliminating guesswork requires accuracy and precision which
exceeds the required tolerances by a good margin. The "rule of thumb"
for machinists for that margin is 10:1. In other words, the
measurement device should be able to provide 10 times the accuracy you
need in the workpiece. If you want accuracy to within hundredths, then
you should be setting up your machine using an instrument accurate to
within thousandths.

Or, if you don't care about eliminating guesswork, you can squint for a
gap with your average woodworking square and proceed with trial and
error until you are satisfied.

First
argument on jig is what is to say that the jointer fence is set accuratly?

Good point. I suggested he get one of these:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PMAKA=418-4315

Secondly I am sure the every one has (or at least should have) a tool in
their kit designed to set the blade and anything else for that matter at 90
deg. For those of you who do not know what it is called or what it is used
for it is called a square. It looks like a funny L shaped piece of steel.
You sit it in the table and hold it up against the blade. If you see light
at the top or the bottom the blade isn't at 90 deg so just adjust the blade
till you see no light between the blade and square. Very simple, takes
little time to dig out of draw or off the wall and works every time. And for
those who really want to be anal about it and accurate to within a thou just
use a good engineers square.

This involves the "squint for a gap" method. Yep, it can be done.
I've done it myself, countless times. It doesn't fit my idea of an
"easy to read" method. It depends on ideal lighting and the assurance
that parallax isn't introducing error. Give Stoutman's dial indicator
jig a try and I bet you'll find yourself squinting a whole lot less. I
can't imagine it would cost you more than $15 and you might just learn
something new.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 02:16:13 GMT, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately align my TS
blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link below, to combat this
problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist 'zero' the indicator at my
jointer fence (which I know to be 90o) and then place it against the TS
blade. The slightest turn of the TS wheel causes a big move at the
indicator dial. I'm sure most have you have thought of this already, but it
took me a while

Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align my
blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being crazy?

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/jigsfixtures.htm

I check my equipment periodically - probably a few times a month.
I do not use gauges or dials, etc.
I cut a piece of stock and put my square to it. I also pay great
attention to how things are going together. Thats it.
Now, if Lockheed Martin calls and requests a set of stairs for say an
F-16, then I'll worry more about tolerance beyond the human eye.

I check my equipment periodically - probably a few times a month.
I do not use gauges or dials, etc.
I cut a piece of stock and put my square to it. I also pay great
attention to how things are going together. Thats it.
Now, if Lockheed Martin calls and requests a set of stairs for say an
F-16, then I'll worry more about tolerance beyond the human eye.

Its NOT just tolerances, its SPEED and convenience too. This jig is faster
and easier to use and it has the added advantage of being more accurate as
well.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
. ..


Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align
my
blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being crazy?


What happens when you try to put together two pieces of wood that were cut
on the saw? Do they fit togther nicely? Can you see the smidge (sic)?
Don't let this stuff drive you crazy. If you're not there already, worrying
too much about smidges, smidgens, RCH's, and tads will certainly get you
there.

--

-Mike-

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
. ..
I have been frustrated lately trying to quickly and accurately align my TS
blade to 90o. I made the jig pictured at the link below, to combat this
problem. It seems to work nicely. I fist 'zero' the indicator at my
jointer fence (which I know to be 90o) and then place it against the TS
blade. The slightest turn of the TS wheel causes a big move at the
indicator dial. I'm sure most have you have thought of this already, but
it took me a while

Question:
After I set my blade to 90o and put on my cross cut sled and re-measure,
guess what? It's off by a smidge (can't quantitate). Should I re-align
my blade when using my sled? Should I make a new sled? Am I being
crazy?


This may sound a little like the short story Tom Watson posted a few days
ago but,,,

One of the quickest ways to determine if you blade is 90 degrees to the
table is to cross cut a 2x4, turn one piece over and then slid the two cut
ends back together. If there is a gap, your blade is not set to 90 degrees.
Additionally, use your cutting results to determine if you saw is set up
properly.

I would say build a new sled with a bottom that is parallel to your saw
table and use flat wood when you cut.

Are you being crazy, no, maybe a little too caught up in what is acceptable
according to the dial on your gauge.
Again, what does the wood look like after you cut it?

Leon wrote:

This may sound a little like the short story Tom Watson posted a few days
ago but,,,

One of the quickest ways to determine if you blade is 90 degrees to the
table is to cross cut a 2x4, turn one piece over and then slid the two cut
ends back together. If there is a gap, your blade is not set to 90 degrees.
Additionally, use your cutting results to determine if you saw is set up
properly.

That quickest way only determines a problem, it is not a solution. Your
method can be a lengthy trial and error process.

I would say build a new sled with a bottom that is parallel to your saw
table and use flat wood when you cut.

Agreed.

Are you being crazy, no, maybe a little too caught up in what is acceptable
according to the dial on your gauge.

Why the criticism of a good idea? If you like cutting a stack of wood to
set your blade then have fun. You will never beat the indicator set-up
for speed and accuracy. Stoutman will have his blade set before you
match up your first cut.

Again, what does the wood look like after you cut it?

A true blade will always yield the best results.

Rick

That quickest way only determines a problem, it is not a solution. Your
method can be a lengthy trial and error process.

I would say build a new sled with a bottom that is parallel to your saw
table and use flat wood when you cut.

Agreed.

Are you being crazy, no, maybe a little too caught up in what is
acceptable according to the dial on your gauge.

Why the criticism of a good idea? If you like cutting a stack of wood to
set your blade then have fun. You will never beat the indicator set-up for
speed and accuracy. Stoutman will have his blade set before you match up
your first cut.

Again, what does the wood look like after you cut it?

A true blade will always yield the best results.

Rick

Well said!

"Richard Faust" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

This may sound a little like the short story Tom Watson posted a few days
ago but,,,

One of the quickest ways to determine if you blade is 90 degrees to the
table is to cross cut a 2x4, turn one piece over and then slid the two
cut ends back together. If there is a gap, your blade is not set to 90
degrees.
Additionally, use your cutting results to determine if you saw is set up
properly.

That quickest way only determines a problem, it is not a solution. Your
method can be a lengthy trial and error process.

Well, for some maybe but it requires no set up so it works pretty quickly
for me.



Why the criticism of a good idea?

Not criticisiing, I have a dial indicator and find it takes longer to tweek
the settings.


If you like cutting a stack of wood to set your blade then have fun.

You do not need a new board for every test cut and if you really know what
you are doing, 3 or 4 test cuts should be more than enough.


You will never beat the indicator set-up for speed and accuracy.

Well, you may not but many of us do.

Leon wrote:

Well, for some maybe but it requires no set up so it works pretty quickly
for me.

Did you look at Stoutman' indicator jig? It's a dedicated alignment
device. Set it once (takes about 10 seconds) and set your TS blade. The
total alignment operation takes about one minute.

Why the criticism of a good idea?

Not criticisiing, I have a dial indicator and find it takes longer to tweek
the settings.

How are you using it? What are you tweaking? How long does it take to
zero it out?

If you like cutting a stack of wood to set your blade then have fun.

You do not need a new board for every test cut and if you really know what
you are doing, 3 or 4 test cuts should be more than enough.

And this takes how long? And how accurate? Can you make three or four
cuts and adjust the blade in less than one minute?

You will never beat the indicator set-up for speed and accuracy.

Well, you may not but many of us do.

Your eyeball will never be more accurate than an indicator!

Rick

PS - It doesn't matter how you set your blade; that indeed is your
choice. Given the choice of your trial and error method or to use the
precision indicator jig, I will always choose the precision method hands
down. As long as you are happy with your choice that is all that matters!

"Richard Faust" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

How are you using it? What are you tweaking? How long does it take to zero
it out?

I had it attached to a piece of 1/2" piece of Baltic Birch indexed in the
miter slot. It worked fine but took some time to pull the tool out and find
the jig. ;~)


And this takes how long? And how accurate? Can you make three or four cuts
and adjust the blade in less than one minute?

Absolutely. About as much time as setting the blade bevel to make a 22.5
degree cut or any where in between. I have a few pieces of wood precut to
measure against for different angles. Typically however the 90 degree stop
is dead on or at least close enough that even "squinting your eye" reveils
no error.


You will never beat the indicator set-up for speed and accuracy.

Well, you may not but many of us do.

Your eyeball will never be more accurate than an indicator!

I absolutely agree but this is woodworking, not metal working. And while
many of us strive for that perfectly fitting joint and you would probably
find no fault with mine, its a touchey feeley thing for me when making many
of my adjustments. After almost 30 years of serious woodworking, I have
learned a few tricks that work well for me.


Rick

PS - It doesn't matter how you set your blade; that indeed is your choice.
Given the choice of your trial and error method or to use the precision
indicator jig, I will always choose the precision method hands down. As
long as you are happy with your choice that is all that matters!

Absolutely. But also keep in mind that regardless of how accurately your
saw is set up the quality of cut is also reflected by your technique when
feeding the wood. I am only saying to not get too caught up in having a
machine set up so perfectly that you do not have time to actually use it.
I'll be the first to say that a machine not set up properly will always
create more work for you in the long run but setting it up does not require
dial indicators for everyday adjustments. I have not had my dial indicator
out since I first got my cabinet saw set up and running about 7 years ago.

Leon wrote:
One of the quickest ways to determine if you blade is 90 degrees to the
table is to cross cut a 2x4, turn one piece over and then slid the two cut
ends back together. If there is a gap, your blade is not set to 90 degrees.
Additionally, use your cutting results to determine if you saw is set up
properly.

Or, it could indicate that the opposite edges of your 2x4 were not
straight and parallel. This is one if the most common mistakes that
people make when doing test cuts. The stock that you use for test cuts
needs to be prepared as accurately as you want your finished work to
be. This includes any planing, jointing squaring, or any other stock
preparation that is applied to the project wood. You can't just trust
any old 2x4 out of the scrap pile.

Based on experience, I would not say that using test cuts is the
quickest (or most reliable) way to square up your blade. Your mileage
might vary.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

wrote in message
ups.com...


Or, it could indicate that the opposite edges of your 2x4 were not
straight and parallel. This is one if the most common mistakes that
people make when doing test cuts. The stock that you use for test cuts
needs to be prepared as accurately as you want your finished work to
be. This includes any planing, jointing squaring, or any other stock
preparation that is applied to the project wood. You can't just trust
any old 2x4 out of the scrap pile.

Based on experience, I would not say that using test cuts is the
quickest (or most reliable) way to square up your blade. Your mileage
might vary.


Jeez Ed, I would not expect you say anything different given your need to
sell your product. :~)
Like you say however, my mileage does vary.

Hi Leon,

I assure you, there is no money for me in promoting the use of
Stoutman's jig. In fact, there are probably people who might have
purchased one of my products that will now go off and try Stoutman's
jig. Like I've said before, I'm a "truth and honesty at all costs"
sort of guy. I took one look at Stoutman's idea and knew it was a good
one. I could have come out attacking it and trying to make it look bad
but then everyone would know that I had a bad motive. So, I chose to
come out in support of his idea and suggest some improvements. Then,
perhaps someday when a person sees the need for a better solution, they
will remember me and my products.

As I see it, the best thing for me to do in a situation like this is to
provide a review comparing my product to Stoutman's idea (like my "dial
indicator on a stick" review). Or, even better, get someone else to do
the review. Still costs me money but might save a few sales.

The flaw in your method has nothing to do with my jig or his jig or
anybody making any money.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Leon wrote:

Jeez Ed, I would not expect you say anything different given your need to
sell your product. :~)
Like you say however, my mileage does vary.

In article , Leon
wrote:

One of the quickest ways to determine if you blade is 90 degrees to the
table is to cross cut a 2x4, turn one piece over and then slid the two cut
ends back together. If there is a gap, your blade is not set to 90 degrees.

A 2x4?

You have 2x4s that are flat where you live?

How do you factor in the _ing twist that is going to be present even in
a short cutoff?

Thanks for the chuckle, Leon, but the LAST thing I'd use to calibrate
ANYTHING is a _ing 2x4.