I am making some chair back rails. I made up a sample laminated and one
band sawn. My wife has chosen the band sawn. She thought the laminated
looked cheap.

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder. Would ash cut or sand
any easier? I am staining them anyhow, so I can dye the ash first and it
will be a good match for oak.

I would have to buy ash while I have a big pile of 12/4 oak, but that is
trivial compared to the work involved. Thanks.

Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 1:43am (EDT+4) (Toller) doth asketh
once again:
I am making some chair back rails. snip My wife has chosen the band
sawn. snip Would ash cut or sand any easier? I am staining them
anyhow, so I can dye the ash first and it will be a good match for oak.
snip

Do you do "anything" on your own, without asking for help first?
Experiment once in awhile. You might want to try google sometime too.

I dunno if ash will cut and sand better than oak or not. But, I've
got this feeling it ain't gonna match the oak after staining, any where
near as well as you think.

If it was me, I'd get a chunk of ash and try cutting and sanding
it. More likely I'd try routing 'em with a template/pattern, whatever I
made 'em out of. Or, rough cut, then using one of those drillpress
sanding thingies, and a template/pattern.



JOAT
It's not hard, if you get your mind right.
- Granny Weatherwax

I don't think that you would see enough difference in the cut to warrant
changing wood. As for the marks though, try a spokeshave or rasp to get the
marks out and a scraper to refine the finish. Easier than you might think
and cuts down a lot on sandpaper. I have found that the more you sand, the
more things get out of shape. The use of hand tools to get close to finish
avoids that.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am making some chair back rails. I made up a sample laminated and one
band sawn. My wife has chosen the band sawn. She thought the laminated
looked cheap.

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder. Would ash cut or sand
any easier? I am staining them anyhow, so I can dye the ash first and it
will be a good match for oak.

I would have to buy ash while I have a big pile of 12/4 oak, but that is
trivial compared to the work involved. Thanks.

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder.

A coupla ideas re. sanding:
1. If you take the inside offcut from your rail, cover it with a thin
piece of neoprene or maybe felt or something, and use that as a sanding
block, it should follow the inside curve of the rail just right. (i.e.
use convex offcut to sand concave rail face)
2. Have you tried a sanding drum in the DP? It'd be a pain to take
multiple passes with a short drum, but Lee Valley has a "large sanding
drum" that's 3" tall. Their support bearing is very nice also, which
reduces lateral load on your DP keeps the drum square to the table. I
own both of these and recommend them. (Stay away from HF sandpaper,
though.) Setting up a fence or dowel or something at a fixed distance
from the drum would give you a guide to keep the rail thickness
consistent.
Good luck,
Andy

Hi Toller,
My Wood supplier is also a WW and says that ash sands much easier than oak.
Cheers, JG
"

Toller wrote:

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder.

Time for a bigger bandsaw! 8-)

Ash would be a bit easier to cut - but whether it would be enough
easier to work than oak so as to make the extra trouble in matching the
colours worth it, now that's a question.

Ash certainly does have a long track record of being fake oak in
furniture. It works fine, so long as you accept that quarter-sawn ash
won't have the ray flake that oak will. There's even '20s and '30s
English furniture around where ray flake figure was painted onto ash to
fake it further! It's not uncommon to have a piece where the front
legs and top were real oak, but the back legs and drawer frames were
stained ash.

"Toller" wrote in message
I am making some chair back rails. I made up a sample laminated and one
band sawn. My wife has chosen the band sawn. She thought the laminated
looked cheap.

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder.

I spend less than two minutes gently "rocking" a ROS/60 grit along the
inside curve to do the same thing and have never "ruined" a shape in all the
times I've done it ... the back curve is even easier ... so I'm trying to
figure out why you find it so difficult to sand the marks out?

... unless they're so pronounced as to require that much work. In that
case, you need a better bandsaw?

Use the widest possible blade will follow the curve on your bandsaw and
you'll have fewer marks to remove.

With the ROS, use even strokes, the same length as the work piece, and let
the ROS do the work without pushing down on it.

If you can't make that work, do it by hand using the cut outs with sandpaper
attached, to follow the curve.

.... or cut outside the line, make a template, and use a router table/pattern
bit to remove the excess.

IME, this is the easy part compared to getting the mortises for the slats in
the right place on two opposing rails, so if you're having that much trouble
with this, get ready for some real trouble down the road.

Sounds like it's time to do some serious thinking/planning.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/01/06

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
I am making some chair back rails. I made up a sample laminated and one
band sawn. My wife has chosen the band sawn. She thought the laminated
looked cheap.

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder.

I spend less than two minutes gently "rocking" a ROS/60 grit along the
inside curve to do the same thing and have never "ruined" a shape in all
the
times I've done it ... the back curve is even easier ... so I'm trying to
figure out why you find it so difficult to sand the marks out?

... unless they're so pronounced as to require that much work. In that
case, you need a better bandsaw?

Use the widest possible blade will follow the curve on your bandsaw and
you'll have fewer marks to remove.

With the ROS, use even strokes, the same length as the work piece, and let
the ROS do the work without pushing down on it.

If you can't make that work, do it by hand using the cut outs with
sandpaper
attached, to follow the curve.

... or cut outside the line, make a template, and use a router
table/pattern
bit to remove the excess.

IME, this is the easy part compared to getting the mortises for the slats
in
the right place on two opposing rails, so if you're having that much
trouble
with this, get ready for some real trouble down the road.

Sounds like it's time to do some serious thinking/planning.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/01/06

... unless they're so pronounced as to require that much work. In that
case, you need a better bandsaw?

Use the widest possible blade will follow the curve on your bandsaw and
you'll have fewer marks to remove.

Well, actually what seems to happen is that every now and then it binds on
the curve and leaves a mark that is hard to get out. If I had more power I
expect it wouldn't bind like that; but since that's not an option... I was
actually going to try it with a 1/4" blade thinking it would be less likely
to bind.

With the ROS, use even strokes, the same length as the work piece, and let
the ROS do the work without pushing down on it.

If you can't make that work, do it by hand using the cut outs with
sandpaper
attached, to follow the curve.

... or cut outside the line, make a template, and use a router
table/pattern
bit to remove the excess.

Yeah, but my pattern bit is 2" and the rail is 2.5". I thought about
having it way out of the collet for the first pass, but that doesn't seem
particularly safe. I also thought about reducing the rail to 2".

Someone above suggested a drum sander with a template, but the only place
that seems to have 3" drums like that is Woodcraft, and they are out of
stock for weeks.

IME, this is the easy part compared to getting the mortises for the slats
in
the right place on two opposing rails, so if you're having that much
trouble
with this, get ready for some real trouble down the road.

Sounds like it's time to do some serious thinking/planning.

If you don't try things you don't know how to do, you don't learn anything!
Or so I tell myself.

"Tim" wrote in message

Well, actually what seems to happen is that every now and then it binds on
the curve and leaves a mark that is hard to get out. If I had more power
I
expect it wouldn't bind like that; but since that's not an option... I
was
actually going to try it with a 1/4" blade thinking it would be less
likely
to bind.

My experience is just the opposite, but I do have a well tuned, 14" bandsaw,
and use an excellent quality resaw blade for this purpose.

Yeah, but my pattern bit is 2" and the rail is 2.5". I thought about
having it way out of the collet for the first pass, but that doesn't seem
particularly safe. I also thought about reducing the rail to 2".

That is exactly why I intially designed my crest rail to be 2", instead of
the 2 1/4" that is on the original chair I was reproducing.

Designing the project around the capability of your tools is a time honored
path to sucess in woodworking, and is something that should paid more
attention to, IMO.

As it turned out, using a ROS to "fair the curve" and sand out the marks was
so easy during the prototype stage on this last chair project, that I went
back to the original dimension.

Someone above suggested a drum sander with a template, but the only place
that seems to have 3" drums like that is Woodcraft, and they are out of
stock for weeks.

While I do have a large oscillating drum sander, I didn't use it because the
ROS, with the proper technique, was so much faster.

If you don't try things you don't know how to do, you don't learn
anything!
Or so I tell myself.

That's true ... but the more time spend thinking/planning/jigging up insures
me a higher rate of success, and is why I "prototype" these days when I
venture into new territory, whether it be in the realm of joinery, or
design.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/01/06

Use pattern bit and the template from one side. Flip the piece over and use
a bit with the bearing on the end to fallow the first cut.
"Tim" wrote in message
...
Yeah, but my pattern bit is 2" and the rail is 2.5". I thought about
having it way out of the collet for the first pass, but that doesn't seem
particularly safe. I also thought about reducing the rail to 2".

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:43:07 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I am making some chair back rails. I made up a sample laminated and one
band sawn. My wife has chosen the band sawn. She thought the laminated
looked cheap.

Cutting 3" oak on my little bandsaw is a challenge, and then sanding the
marks out without ruining the shape is even harder. Would ash cut or sand
any easier? I am staining them anyhow, so I can dye the ash first and it
will be a good match for oak.

I would have to buy ash while I have a big pile of 12/4 oak, but that is
trivial compared to the work involved. Thanks.

Use your BS... make sure that you have a good quality, sharp blade and take your
time... You have more experience than I do, so you already know that, but what
the hell, it's a news group.. *g*

Do the best cut you can, then clamp the pieces together and sand them all at
once.. if the shape changes a bit, it will at least be a uniform design
improvement, not a screw-up, right?

In my experience, most marks from the BS are from too aggressive a set on the
blade, and not following the curve smoothly... every little wiggle of the stock
is going to leave marks..
Think about how we hold stuff on a TS compared to a BS... hard against the
fence, feather boards, etc... BS stuff is more ART than precision, I guess.. lol

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Tim wrote:

Someone above suggested a drum sander with a template, but the only
place that seems to have 3" drums like that is Woodcraft, and they
are out of stock for weeks.

Why get a wimpy little 3 incher when you can have 6"?
http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/c...rumsanding.htm

If you insist on 3"...
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1090
or
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1262

but in the latter I prefer 6" which is available here and there (I put
2 different grits on it, each 3")...
http://www.ptreeusa.com/sandingdrums.htm

http://www.woodworkingshop.com/cgi-b...tems.mac/itemD
isplay?qryType=STYLE&itemSt=SLEEVELESS


Lord, it is just *amazing* what can be found with Google. And I
didn't even include pneumatic drums...


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:IjbYg.1695$6D3.1186@trnddc01...
Tim wrote:

Someone above suggested a drum sander with a template, but the only
place that seems to have 3" drums like that is Woodcraft, and they
are out of stock for weeks.

Why get a wimpy little 3 incher when you can have 6"?
http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/c...rumsanding.htm

If you insist on 3"...
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1090
or
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1262

What I want is:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=257
It has a template guide at the bottom.
I have, and have tried to use, a Rigid oscillating drum sander (actually my
shaft is bent (yeah, it hurts...) and I can't get the belt sander off, but
its still about the same thing) but I can't get a smooth surface on it.
Either peaks are left, or valley are sanded in.
I was kinda hoping the template guide would make all well.

Tim wrote:

I have, and have tried to use, a Rigid oscillating drum sander
(actually my shaft is bent (yeah, it hurts...) and I can't get the
belt sander off, but its still about the same thing) but I can't
get a smooth surface on it. Either peaks are left, or valley are
sanded in.
I was kinda hoping the template guide would make all well.

You want a uniform thickness, no? Make/use a gizmo like you would on
the bandsaw for maintaining a uniform thickness when cutting curves.
Like a fence but only one point of contact...perpendicular to what a
fence would normally be and with a rounded edge...

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Tim" wrote in message

I was kinda hoping the template guide would make all well.

It looks like it would be a tad slower, but well worth a try.

Can you use one of the laminates that turned out well as a template?

Let us know how the device works.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/01/06

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:75dYg.7460$cH6.2660@trnddc07...
Tim wrote:

I have, and have tried to use, a Rigid oscillating drum sander
(actually my shaft is bent (yeah, it hurts...) and I can't get the
belt sander off, but its still about the same thing) but I can't
get a smooth surface on it. Either peaks are left, or valley are
sanded in.
I was kinda hoping the template guide would make all well.

You want a uniform thickness, no? Make/use a gizmo like you would on
the bandsaw for maintaining a uniform thickness when cutting curves.
Like a fence but only one point of contact...perpendicular to what a
fence would normally be and with a rounded edge...

Yes, that would help keep a steady feed.
I am going to try two other things though...
I am taking a bowl turning class on Mondays. They have a 20" saw. That
might make all the difference in getting a smooth cut; we'll see.
I also found the roboSand (drum sander w/guide) at Woodworker's Supply.
Between the two, I ought to get it. If I can't, there is always stamp
collecting.

"Tim" wrote in :


... unless they're so pronounced as to require that much work. In that
case, you need a better bandsaw?

Use the widest possible blade will follow the curve on your bandsaw and
you'll have fewer marks to remove.

Well, actually what seems to happen is that every now and then it binds on
the curve and leaves a mark that is hard to get out. If I had more power I
expect it wouldn't bind like that; but since that's not an option... I was
actually going to try it with a 1/4" blade thinking it would be less likely
to bind.

There is a limit to the radius your can cut with a given blade width. The
narrower the blade the tighter the curve.

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
. 1...
"Tim" wrote in :


... unless they're so pronounced as to require that much work. In that
case, you need a better bandsaw?

Use the widest possible blade will follow the curve on your bandsaw and
you'll have fewer marks to remove.

Well, actually what seems to happen is that every now and then it binds
on
the curve and leaves a mark that is hard to get out. If I had more power
I
expect it wouldn't bind like that; but since that's not an option... I
was
actually going to try it with a 1/4" blade thinking it would be less
likely
to bind.

There is a limit to the radius your can cut with a given blade width. The
narrower the blade the tighter the curve.

I am guessing, but my curve is about 25" radius. I would expect a 1/2"
blade to be okay on that, but maybe not since it did bind. Perhaps the kerf
was closing up behind it?

"Tim" wrote in message

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message

There is a limit to the radius your can cut with a given blade width.
The
narrower the blade the tighter the curve.

I am guessing, but my curve is about 25" radius. I would expect a 1/2"
blade to be okay on that, but maybe not since it did bind. Perhaps the
kerf
was closing up behind it?

Anyone with any knowledge of bandsawing and bandsaw blades would not have
wasted the bandwidth running that rabbit trail.

There is no chair back with a radius that a 1/2" blade won't cut unless it
is in a doll house.

A 1/2" blade should be able to cut a radius 1/10 of your 25" chairback
radius ... or about 2 1/2".

For future reference, print out the jpg and tape it to your bandsaw:

http://tinyurl.com/stdga


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/01/06

Tim said:

I am guessing, but my curve is about 25" radius. I would expect a 1/2"
blade to be okay on that, but maybe not since it did bind. Perhaps the kerf
was closing up behind it?

Your blade is fine.
Make certain that the blade is tracking properly on the wheel crown,
and that you have your blade lead set properly. If the blade won't
track in its own kerf, your pivot point is either too far forward of
the teeth, or too far behind, depending on which direction it wants to
(mis-)track.

FWIW

"DGG" wrote in message
...
Tim said:

I am guessing, but my curve is about 25" radius. I would expect a 1/2"
blade to be okay on that, but maybe not since it did bind. Perhaps the
kerf
was closing up behind it?

Your blade is fine.
Make certain that the blade is tracking properly on the wheel crown,
and that you have your blade lead set properly. If the blade won't
track in its own kerf, your pivot point is either too far forward of
the teeth, or too far behind, depending on which direction it wants to
(mis-)track.

What is a blade lead? The guide blocks? I haven't heard that term.

Tim said:

What is a blade lead? The guide blocks? I haven't heard that term.

Just in case there is some misunderstanding, it is blade lead - as in
to guide or direct in a course; not lead - as in a dense malleable
metal.

Blade lead refers to the direction that a particular blade wants to
track, depending on the saw's setup and the set of the teeth. Every
blade can differ.

For instance, when re-sawing, if the stock is not fed into the blade
at the angle that the blade wants it to be, it will not cut a straight
line, no matter how you force it. You only end up with score marks
and frustration. Feeding at what _appears_ to be parallel with the
blade is not enough. You have to check the lead of the blade and
compensate for its tendency to cut towards one direction or another.

When cutting curves, the same principles apply, only the pivot point
of the stock is altered to match the feed preference of the blade.

This really crude, exaggerated graphic might help:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...ges/BSLead.jpg

FWIW

What is a blade lead? The guide blocks? I haven't heard that term.

If you're not being facetious, blade lead and guide blocks are pretty
basic bandsaw concepts. Before you do anything else with your bandsaw,
I'd strongly recommend that get a bandsaw book or 2 - I like "The
Bandsaw Handbook" by Duginske, though there are several other bandsaw
books out by Duginske and others. Check your local library or
http://www.amazon.com/Band-Saw-Handb...e=UTF8&s=books
(that's http://tinyurl.com/yg9tfq if the link is too long)
Very informative, good background on bandsaws, how to set them up, tune
them to reduce vibration, what can be done with various types and
thickness of blades, etc.
Good luck,
Andy