On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 20:47:45 GMT, "The Other Funk"
wrote:

Finding the keyboard operational
George Max entered:

But back to the topic. I am totaly against government involvement where
unnecessary. But we are going to get this one like it or not. Mr.Gass isn't
going to be the one to push this through. It's the people who make it sound
like they are on your side but aren't. Yes boys and girls, the insurance
lobby. Insurance companies hate to pay claims. Hate may not be strong enough
a word. So we will see this and soon. (my WAG)

Yes, especially since it's been shown to be possible.

False triggers are going to be a problem. Not maybe, will. And it won't be
long before someone hacks the controller. Then someone will come up with a
new sensor that is less prone to false triggering or a blade that won't be
destroyed.

You noted in one of my other messages that UL is also lining up
against this? UL doesn't give a hoot whether or not the company
building it makes any money with it, nor are they concerned with legal
niceties of the operation of a companies business. They are involved
with safety. Safety under not just the ordinary conditions, but also
wildly abnormal situations. I think it's possible they see a flaw in
the device. We'll see.

My position is that SawStop or someother braking device will be on all new
table saws in the near future. The good thing is that it will save some
people from injury, The really stupid will get hurt anyhow.

Saw Stop's own site says that. The device is designed for a hand
pushing wood into the blade at some small rate. They say that a
hand/body part moving faster will still sustain serious injury.

Even if we write
to all 100 senators and the 200+? congressmen, all we will get is noise.
If I take my prognostication a wee bit further - CMS, bandsaws and scroll
saws will be next.

The article mentions exactly that. CMS, bandsaw and circular saw. No
mention made of scroll saw.

What has got me stumped is how they will stop us from getting hurt with a
hammer.
Bob


Airbag

In article ,
George Max wrote:
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:57:00 -0500, ()
wrote:

In article ,
George Max wrote:

I'm serious - where does it end?

Meat slicer at the deli?

Imagine that - a saw stop device triggering every time the clerk tries
to slice the pastrami for you.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to catch that!


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

In article ,
Leon wrote:

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...


Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a
helmet.
But it should be my decision, not forced on me.


Well, If I did not have to buy auto insurance to protect me AND the other
guy I would say the helmet should be optional also. But, if you do not wear
it and are insured and file a claim for a head injury we all have to help
pay for your rehab. Insurance premiums are high but are not a wash when
the cost of your head injury goes in to the hundreds of thousands of
dollars. The other policy holders have to pitch in then with higher
premiums.



Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down



You know, you would be a lot safer in a car accident if you were
wearing a helmet, too...


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

The cartridge is swapable without tools. It's actually more work
changing the dado than it is changing the cartridge. If you want to,
you can mount a dado without changing cartridges, but then you have to
bypass the safety which requires a key and (I think) a powercycle. It
will take about the same amount of time either way.

The brake cartridge is like the airbag in a car. It's no substitue for
common sense. You still need to be careful and wear seatbelts. But it
can save you if you ever do something stupid.

I do own a SawStop, but I'm not crazy about them trying to force feed
it to everyone. Unfortunately, I don't know that the wood machines
industry is powerful enough to pull off the auto industries trick with
airbags. Automobile airbags were invented and patented in 1968. The
auto industry resisted embracing the technology until 1988... after the
patent expired.

dcm

George Max wrote:
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:39:09 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Jim Northey wrote:

I wonder how this thing will work with a dado blade.
Jim



SawStop has a special cartridge for dado blades.


Yeah, but at what hassle? I'm thinking most users will simply change
blades without bothering with the cartridge. And if it's not possible
to mount the dao without doing that change, this is going to anger a
lot of users. That's the ticket - sell more product by angering the
customers.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 00:50:57 -0500, ()
wrote:

In article ,
Leon wrote:

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...


Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a
helmet.
But it should be my decision, not forced on me.


Well, If I did not have to buy auto insurance to protect me AND the other
guy I would say the helmet should be optional also. But, if you do not wear
it and are insured and file a claim for a head injury we all have to help
pay for your rehab. Insurance premiums are high but are not a wash when
the cost of your head injury goes in to the hundreds of thousands of
dollars. The other policy holders have to pitch in then with higher
premiums.



Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down



You know, you would be a lot safer in a car accident if you were
wearing a helmet, too...

And a full NASCAR roll cage and seat. With HANS device.

There has to be a limit.

On 8 Sep 2006 07:11:52 -0700, "Devon Miller"
wrote:

The cartridge is swapable without tools. It's actually more work
changing the dado than it is changing the cartridge. If you want to,
you can mount a dado without changing cartridges, but then you have to
bypass the safety which requires a key and (I think) a powercycle. It
will take about the same amount of time either way.

The brake cartridge is like the airbag in a car. It's no substitue for
common sense. You still need to be careful and wear seatbelts. But it
can save you if you ever do something stupid.

I do own a SawStop, but I'm not crazy about them trying to force feed
it to everyone. Unfortunately, I don't know that the wood machines
industry is powerful enough to pull off the auto industries trick with
airbags. Automobile airbags were invented and patented in 1968. The
auto industry resisted embracing the technology until 1988... after the
patent expired.

dcm

That's good to know.

Being forced just rubs me the wrong way. And I think unnecessary. If
it passes the acid test of actual use in industry, it WILL trickle
down to everyone. The inventor isn't entirely altruistic. I think he
want's the pot of gold NOW while he's young rather than getting it
much later when he's old. It could take a lifetime to build a
successful business.

Even so, I'd be interested in it. But not at $3000 (or so) While my
woodworking is a hobby and I don't have to justify a purchase, there
is only so much $ to spend.

On 8 Sep 2006 07:11:52 -0700, "Devon Miller"
wrote:



The brake cartridge is like the airbag in a car. It's no substitue for
common sense. You still need to be careful and wear seatbelts. But it
can save you if you ever do something stupid.

And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.
I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

Finding the keyboard operational
George Max entered:


What has got me stumped is how they will stop us from getting hurt
with a hammer.
Bob


Airbag

coffee spray!!!
Seriously the product warning lables are getting ridiculous. And not just
the badly translated.
I groan inwardly every time I see "caution contents may be hot" on a lid.
If it isn't hot, I'm out of business.
So it is with SawStop. As I see it there are two types of tabesaw
acccidents. Being careful operator with an Opps and the careless operator.
Both need the protection.
Having reread the SawStop web site, I am very concerned about a third kind
of trigger. If SawStop works by sensing a electrcal signal, what happens if
someone is using a motor with worn brushes in the area or an arc welder? I
know (hope) it's been tested for this but you can't test for everything.
Bob

--?
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Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
...
On 8 Sep 2006 07:11:52 -0700, "Devon Miller"
wrote:



And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.
I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.



I have go to say Joe you sound just like the person you are talking about.
One day your arrogance is going to slap you in the face.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:55:27 GMT, "The Other Funk"
wrote:

coffee spray!!!
Seriously the product warning lables are getting ridiculous. And not just
the badly translated.
I groan inwardly every time I see "caution contents may be hot" on a lid.
If it isn't hot, I'm out of business.
So it is with SawStop. As I see it there are two types of tabesaw
acccidents. Being careful operator with an Opps and the careless operator.
Both need the protection.
Having reread the SawStop web site, I am very concerned about a third kind
of trigger. If SawStop works by sensing a electrcal signal, what happens if
someone is using a motor with worn brushes in the area or an arc welder? I
know (hope) it's been tested for this but you can't test for everything.
Bob


You're in the retail coffee business? Sorta like Starbucks?

Moving onto the saw - this is what UL attempts to do. Test for
everything. They say it senses the capacitance of a human body. I
wonder if the amount of that capacitance is the same from individual
is the same, and if not, does that make a difference? The electronics
of the device can probably be shielded from interference, but the
blade is part of the circuit, I don't think that can be shielded and
in fact may act as an antenna. I'm also wondering about those teflon
coated blades, but that might not matter since the teeth won't have
teflon on them.

Since this is probably a new category of device for UL, they're going
to have to dream up tests for it. Assuming it's totally new or at
least nothing very similar.

There's going to be a heck of a lot of investigation on this.

Finding the keyboard operational
George Max entered:

You're in the retail coffee business? Sorta like Starbucks?

If you are going to start talking dirty like that, I'll give you decaf. But
yes I am in the coffee business. Check out the link in my sig.

Moving onto the saw - this is what UL attempts to do. Test for
everything. They say it senses the capacitance of a human body. I
wonder if the amount of that capacitance is the same from individual
is the same, and if not, does that make a difference? The electronics
of the device can probably be shielded from interference, but the
blade is part of the circuit, I don't think that can be shielded and
in fact may act as an antenna. I'm also wondering about those teflon
coated blades, but that might not matter since the teeth won't have
teflon on them.

Since this is probably a new category of device for UL, they're going
to have to dream up tests for it. Assuming it's totally new or at
least nothing very similar.

There's going to be a heck of a lot of investigation on this.

The capacitance of the the human body, as measured to the saw blade (or
where ever they are measuring it) will vary but I am sure they can cover the
range. It's probably cheaper and easier to cover a range then a single
value.
The SawStop site doesn't go into any detail but I would guess the blade is a
major part of the sensing part.
If I get a chance , I'll look up the patent(s) and see what I can learn.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

That has been known to trigger it. Last I heard, if you have these problems,
they will send you a filter.
"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:j8iMg.689$FS.533@trnddc04...

If SawStop works by sensing a electrcal signal, what happens if
someone is using a motor with worn brushes in the area or an arc welder?
I
know (hope) it's been tested for this but you can't test for everything.
Bob

jd wrote:
the whole sawstop thing is a perfect example of how broken our system is.
Rather than letting this (rather questionable in my opinion) product survive
in a competetive marketplace, the sawstop folks have decided that they'll
attempt to mandate the use of thier product.

Actually, that _is_ the competitive marketplace at work. After all, if
you had a product, and you saw an opportunity to ensure nationwide
sales, wouldn't _you_ take that opportunity?

Look, people, the original article cited a _press release_ from the
Sawstop people. All it said is that he's having a meeting with a
government official. That's all. If there's any chance that this'll turn
into a new requirement for table saws, we can expect to have a long
period wherein the industry will debate the issue, lobby the government,
argue back and forth...

And chances are, the deciding factor won't be the government, but
insurance companies. They might decide that, if you don't have a
Sawstop, you're not covered... and thus, it'd become practically
mandatory because of the competitive marketplace.

"Brian Siano" wrote in message
...
Actually, that _is_ the competitive marketplace at work. After all, if
you had a product, and you saw an opportunity to ensure nationwide
sales, wouldn't _you_ take that opportunity?

No, not like that. There still is a thing called ethics but, it seems that
the current idea is that nothing matters more than money. Steal it, extort
it, whatever as long as you get more of it.

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.
I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

And that attitude is going to bite you in the butt big time some day,
probably sooner than later.

There *are* documented incidents and Sawstop goes out of its way to make
sure that they're all documented for all to see. It would be financially
incompetent and careless for them to do otherwise.

Finding the keyboard operational
CW entered:

That has been known to trigger it. Last I heard, if you have these
problems, they will send you a filter.
"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:j8iMg.689$FS.533@trnddc04...

If SawStop works by sensing a electrcal signal, what happens if
someone is using a motor with worn brushes in the area or an arc
welder?
I
know (hope) it's been tested for this but you can't test for
everything. Bob

If a filter makes the device less sensitive, what is their legal exposure if
that saw then bites someone?

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
CW entered:

"Brian Siano" wrote in message
...
Actually, that _is_ the competitive marketplace at work. After all,
if you had a product, and you saw an opportunity to ensure nationwide
sales, wouldn't _you_ take that opportunity?

No, not like that. There still is a thing called ethics but, it seems
that the current idea is that nothing matters more than money. Steal
it, extort it, whatever as long as you get more of it.

Actually the SawStop folks have a legal responsibility to maximize profits
for thier investors.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:46:44 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.
I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

And that attitude is going to bite you in the butt big time some day,
probably sooner than later.

There *are* documented incidents and Sawstop goes out of its way to make
sure that they're all documented for all to see. It would be financially
incompetent and careless for them to do otherwise.

I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message

I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

There are incidents where the Sawstop has activated where someone has
unintentionally touched the spinning blade. If proper procedure was being
followed for woodworking then they were safely operating the tablesaw and no
blade was touched.

What's that, some little game you're playing with words? Grow up and get a
life.

It doesn't make it less sensitive. It filters out the static and voltave
spikes on the line that are causing misfires.

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:SJlMg.31$gN1.22@trndny08...

If a filter makes the device less sensitive, what is their legal exposure
if
that saw then bites someone?

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
CW entered:

It doesn't make it less sensitive. It filters out the static and
voltave spikes on the line that are causing misfires.

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:SJlMg.31$gN1.22@trndny08...

If a filter makes the device less sensitive, what is their legal
exposure if that saw then bites someone?

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Well I believe you but I am going to have to do some research of my own. I
thought that the trigger was a voltage spike. I'll get back to you.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

I don't want to fan the flames but this article has some interesting points
http://www.edn.com/article/CA502427.html
The add on price quoted here is $150.00 not the $400.00 that has been
bandied about.
Since the controller is a TI part, it can't be too hard to build a competing
product. The big trick is stopping the blade.
Bob
--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

In article H9pMg.32$cf2.17@trndny07,
The Other Funk wrote:
I don't want to fan the flames but this article has some interesting points
http://www.edn.com/article/CA502427.html
The add on price quoted here is $150.00 not the $400.00 that has been
bandied about.
Since the controller is a TI part, it can't be too hard to build a competing
product. The big trick is stopping the blade.
Bob

And on that note, there are proven, old tech methods of stopping
electric motors using brakes or electrical methods. Years ago I worked
at a plant that had among other things a "two roll mill." Without
getting too specific about it's operation, it was driven
by a 150 HP motor, and the business end consisted of 2 steel rollers,
each about 4 feet long & 2 feet in diameter, rotating next to each
other with a pinch point of about 1/2" or so between them. I'd guess
that each roller weighed a couple/few tons. The whole setup had a
safety bar above it that activated a braking mechanism. It was SOP for
the operator to use this when he wanted to stop the mill for any
reason, not just in emergencies. It would stop the entire machine,
motor, gearing, etc, in less than a 1/4 turn of the main rollers
without any damage to the machine, and could be reset by the operator,
and the machine restarted, in less than a minute. (IIRC the rollers
turned in the neighborhood of 100 RPM)

For that matter, just think how fast the brake on a CMS or router
stops the tool (admittedly their reliability factor is not that high!)
I'm no engineer, but it sure seems to me that it would be possible to
stop a TS without a one-time-use cartridge.
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

The amount of time for a CMS to come to a stop is sufficient to amputate a
finger. Yes, there are ways of stopping a motor quite quickly but, even a
partial rotation could be disastrous. In any case, stopping it that quickly
would almost certainly unscrew the blade nut. A freewheeling blade will cut
quite nicely.

wrote in message
...
For that matter, just think how fast the brake on a CMS or router
stops the tool (admittedly their reliability factor is not that high!)
I'm no engineer, but it sure seems to me that it would be possible to
stop a TS without a one-time-use cartridge.
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

Capacitance change is the trigger. Likely somewhat more sophisticated but
essentially like a touch lamp.

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:a4pMg.54$rc3.28@trndny03...
I
thought that the trigger was a voltage spike. I'll get back to you.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:49:02 -0400, Joe Bemier
wrote:

And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.

Part of the cost is the mechanism to stop the blade. Part of the cost
is the beefing up of the rest of the machine to handle stopping it.
But that also contributes to it being an all around better saw. Note
that the Sawstop has a deeper table (at least I think all the other
cabinet saws are at 27ish) as the mechanism needs more room behind the
blade. They also (I think) overdid it with the other safety features
like interlocks to keep the saw from starting if the cabinet door is
open. The point being, as I've said elsewhere, I don't believe the
real cost is as high as you make it out to be. I really expect the
added cost to be under $100 once the dust settles.


I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

I challenge anyone to document a home woodworker that follows the
proper procedure 100% to the fullest every single time. Hint: there
are none.


-Leuf

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:38:01 -0400, Leuf
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:49:02 -0400, Joe Bemier
wrote:

And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.

Part of the cost is the mechanism to stop the blade. Part of the cost
is the beefing up of the rest of the machine to handle stopping it.
But that also contributes to it being an all around better saw. Note
that the Sawstop has a deeper table (at least I think all the other
cabinet saws are at 27ish) as the mechanism needs more room behind the
blade. They also (I think) overdid it with the other safety features
like interlocks to keep the saw from starting if the cabinet door is
open. The point being, as I've said elsewhere, I don't believe the
real cost is as high as you make it out to be. I really expect the
added cost to be under $100 once the dust settles.


I challenge anyone to cite a documented accident that occurred while
proper procedure was being followed - hint: there are none.

I challenge anyone to document a home woodworker that follows the
proper procedure 100% to the fullest every single time. Hint: there
are none.


-Leuf

Well, I guess thats tongue in cheek, right? It would be possible to
locate a documented case of someone having an accident while following
procedure if there were any. But, your challenge is unobtainable.

Finding the keyboard operational
CW entered:

Capacitance change is the trigger. Likely somewhat more sophisticated
but essentially like a touch lamp.

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:a4pMg.54$rc3.28@trndny03...
I
thought that the trigger was a voltage spike. I'll get back to you.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

I read it as a voltage spike caused by a change in capacitance. Guess I
better read it again.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
Leuf entered:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:49:02 -0400, Joe Bemier
wrote:

And there is the point. I don't want $400-$500 worth of extras
*forced* on me just to cover some other clowns stupidity.

Part of the cost is the mechanism to stop the blade. Part of the cost
is the beefing up of the rest of the machine to handle stopping it.
But that also contributes to it being an all around better saw. Note
that the Sawstop has a deeper table (at least I think all the other
cabinet saws are at 27ish) as the mechanism needs more room behind the
blade. They also (I think) overdid it with the other safety features
like interlocks to keep the saw from starting if the cabinet door is
open. The point being, as I've said elsewhere, I don't believe the
real cost is as high as you make it out to be. I really expect the
added cost to be under $100 once the dust settles.
Also there is the part that drops the blade under the table. You may need
more depth for that.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

The Other Funk wrote:

Actually the SawStop folks have a legal responsibility to maximize profits
for thier investors.

And that justifies how many unethical and/or illegal practices?

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:22:18 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Capacitance change is the trigger. Likely somewhat more sophisticated but
essentially like a touch lamp.

I wondered about this as well. I read an article on the net that said
it senses a *change* between the wood and say a hand/finger. But what
if the accident happened before or after cutting. For example, and
illustrative purpose only, what if one was to stick their hand
directly into the blade? This would not result in a change of any
kind.
I don't know much about electronics.

Anybody?

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:a4pMg.54$rc3.28@trndny03...
I
thought that the trigger was a voltage spike. I'll get back to you.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 09:04:40 -0700, Larry Blanchard
wrote:

The Other Funk wrote:

Actually the SawStop folks have a legal responsibility to maximize profits
for thier investors.

And that justifies how many unethical and/or illegal practices?

How is discussing your safety invention with a consumer safety board
unethical or illegal?

Whether I like the guy or not, I'm not willing to increase my chances
of losing a finger just to spite him. And seeing firsthand what
otherwise intelligent people do with their saws, yes, as long as the
cost isn't prohibitive there's no reason it shouldn't be on every saw.


-Leuf

There are a few methods of doing this but the simplest is to have a tuned
circuit ballanced by a certain capacitance. Proximity or contact from a
human being will change that capacitance, throwing the circuit out of
balance and trigger an event. A piece of wood will not do this because it is
an insulator. The circuit does not detect the difference between a piece of
wood and you, it just doesn't detect the wood at all.

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:22:18 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Capacitance change is the trigger. Likely somewhat more sophisticated but
essentially like a touch lamp.

I wondered about this as well. I read an article on the net that said
it senses a *change* between the wood and say a hand/finger. But what
if the accident happened before or after cutting. For example, and
illustrative purpose only, what if one was to stick their hand
directly into the blade? This would not result in a change of any
kind.
I don't know much about electronics.

Anybody?

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:a4pMg.54$rc3.28@trndny03...
I
thought that the trigger was a voltage spike. I'll get back to you.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
Larry Blanchard entered:

The Other Funk wrote:

Actually the SawStop folks have a legal responsibility to maximize
profits for thier investors.

And that justifies how many unethical and/or illegal practices?

Absolutly zero and no one is accusing the SawStop people of doing anything
illegal or unethical.
Look. Like it or not SawStop exists and is a practical product. It is
commercially available. Based upon what I have seen it won't be long before
commercial shops will be required by their insurance companies to have them
or a similar product.
Manufacturers of all powered cutting tools will folllow up by making some
kind of safety device that will minimize accidents or be priced out of
business.
Bob
--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Maybe you haven't been fallowing along. They are actively trying to have
legislation passed that would require devices of the type that only they
have. Enrichment through legislation. So, if you still don't see a problem
with that you are either a lawyer or are suffering from the disability that
most of them suffer from, lack of an ethics gene.

"Leuf" wrote in message
...
How is discussing your safety invention with a consumer safety board
unethical or illegal?

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 19:33:33 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Maybe you haven't been fallowing along. They are actively trying to have
legislation passed that would require devices of the type that only they
have. Enrichment through legislation. So, if you still don't see a problem
with that you are either a lawyer or are suffering from the disability that
most of them suffer from, lack of an ethics gene.

He tried to get the saw manufacturers to adopt the technology first.
It was only when he was rejected that he started selling the saws.
Selling saws equipped with it himself and trying to get it, or
something equivalent to it, mandated are both logical next steps
towards acheiving the goal of getting the technology out there. No
doubt the guy sees the opportunity to get rich in the process. If he
was a great humanitarian he'd be offering up the license for free to
anyone that wants it. But that does not mean that it is somehow
unethical to discuss safety with those charged with monitoring safety.

Let's put it this way. Say he came up with the device, and patents
it. He goes to the saw manfacturers, they reject him. So he gives up
and the technology never sees the light of day. Is that more ethical?


-Leuf

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:43:38 -0400, Joe Bemier
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:22:18 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Capacitance change is the trigger. Likely somewhat more sophisticated but
essentially like a touch lamp.

I wondered about this as well. I read an article on the net that said
it senses a *change* between the wood and say a hand/finger. But what
if the accident happened before or after cutting. For example, and
illustrative purpose only, what if one was to stick their hand
directly into the blade? This would not result in a change of any
kind.

Yes it would. The wood, if it's dry, has little/no effect on the
system because it is a poor conductor. You are a good conductor and
you have an effect no matter what.

Think of it more like this, the blade is full of water. The wood is
impermeable to water. The skin soaks it up like a dry sponge. When
you run the wood through it nothing happens to the water in the blade.
As soon as your sponge hits it the water gets soaked up. Even though
water is constantly supplied to the blade, the amount of water in it
momentarily drops because so much of it moved out suddenly.


-Leuf

Finding the keyboard operational
CW entered:

Maybe you haven't been fallowing along. They are actively trying to
have legislation passed that would require devices of the type that
only they have. Enrichment through legislation. So, if you still
don't see a problem with that you are either a lawyer or are
suffering from the disability that most of them suffer from, lack of
an ethics gene.

"Leuf" wrote in message
...
How is discussing your safety invention with a consumer safety board
unethical or illegal?

Go tell it to George Westinghouse and his air brake for railcars.
Why do you think that presenting a product to the consumer product safety
commission is in any way unethical? Because they have the only working
product? That isn't unethical.
What? They should wait until someone developes a competing product?
I am starting to believe that you don't know what he word ethical means.
Oh, one last thing, don't say lawyer like its a bad thing. Remember,
lawyers are on both sides of a dispute.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:39:24 -0400, Leuf
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:43:38 -0400, Joe Bemier
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:22:18 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Capacitance change is the trigger. Likely somewhat more sophisticated but
essentially like a touch lamp.

I wondered about this as well. I read an article on the net that said
it senses a *change* between the wood and say a hand/finger. But what
if the accident happened before or after cutting. For example, and
illustrative purpose only, what if one was to stick their hand
directly into the blade? This would not result in a change of any
kind.

Yes it would. The wood, if it's dry, has little/no effect on the
system because it is a poor conductor. You are a good conductor and
you have an effect no matter what.

Think of it more like this, the blade is full of water. The wood is
impermeable to water. The skin soaks it up like a dry sponge. When
you run the wood through it nothing happens to the water in the blade.
As soon as your sponge hits it the water gets soaked up. Even though
water is constantly supplied to the blade, the amount of water in it
momentarily drops because so much of it moved out suddenly.


-Leuf
Great analogy!
It's a slick invention, no doubt. But, personally, I can't agree with
the course of mandating the technology, unless it was at a price that
did not make much difference, i.e., $100 at retail.

Finding the keyboard operational
Joe Bemier entered:


It's a slick invention, no doubt. But, personally, I can't agree with
the course of mandating the technology, unless it was at a price that
did not make much difference, i.e., $100 at retail.

Joe, we are going to see more and more SawStop equiped shops as the
insurance industry forces it upon the commercial sector. Then the saw mfrs
insurance companies will insist on it. It's going to be market driven not
legislated. Which means that the price will be all the market an bear.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com