On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 21:57:20 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
.. .

You must be either a SawStop saw owner or an employee of their company
in some fashion.

None of the above. Just some one that is not swayed by my emotions.


I've read a lot of postings in years gone by about the Saw Stop. I've
noted that a cabinet saw with that device is now available for sale.
And I've read this month's issue of Design News (it arrived today)
about Mr. Gass and his quest to have Saw Stop installed on every new
saw sold.

I was right there with him. Little guy invents device, big
manufacturers won't have anything to do with him, little guy starts
own company and sells a million. Heck, I'd even read the reviews that
said his saw was pretty good.

This was going to be a good old fashioned success story. Until now.
Now Mr. Gass feels it's necessary to get the government to force
everyone to use his device. I know, I know, they won't couch it in
words exactly like that, they'll use words that say something like "a
device to eliminate or reduce injury from contacting a rotating saw
blade" or somesuch. And all the while essentialy mean to use Saw
Stop.

That's where I draw the line. In my opinion he wants to use
government intervention has a short cut to riches. And that's just
wrong.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 23:43:13 -0500, "sweetsawdust"
wrote:

I would think that the 55,000 TS injuries a year might be a little low.
This week I have had 3 injuries from my table saw, bumped into it once and
hurt my leg, laid down a stack of boards and mashed my finger, had a piece
of wood (large) fall from the table and hit my foot. None of these injuries
occurred when the saw was running, Total loss of time 5 min at most while I
was cussing my own stupidity, cost to business $0. Will the saw stop help
with any of those? they seem to be the most common type around my shop.

According to my new copy of Design News magazine (9/4/06 issue) on
page 55, lower right hand corner there's a chart that has some
statistics on table saw injuries. The chart says that in calendar
year 2002 there were an estimated 33,114 injuries from bench and table
saws. In that same year there were 3,503 amputations.

The year with the greatest number of injuries (33,590) was 1998. The
year with the greatest number of amputations was 2002.

The chart also says that "over the 10 to 15 year life of a table saw,
it would generate societal costs of $2,600 to $3,100 from blade
contact injuries." And that such saws have initial costs ranging from
about $100 to $300.

The information in the chart is from the CPSC.

I can safely say that my saw, acquired about 17 years ago, which cost
around $500 has not contributed at all to those figures since no one
has cut anything other that wood with it.

Sad to say, I cannot say the same thing about my radial arm saw or
jointer. Yet those items are not at issue. Yet.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 21:56:35 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
.. .

I'm not going to bother. I won't be a SawStop customer.

That's what I thought.


It's not because of the device. I like it. I was wishing them
success. They appeared to be going down the right path. Then they
just had to try for government regulation to get what they can't get
on their own.

"George Max" wrote in message
...


Snip of views that you and I totally agree with.


This was going to be a good old fashioned success story. Until now.
Now Mr. Gass feels it's necessary to get the government to force
everyone to use his device. I know, I know, they won't couch it in
words exactly like that, they'll use words that say something like "a
device to eliminate or reduce injury from contacting a rotating saw
blade" or somesuch. And all the while essentialy mean to use Saw
Stop.

Well, Mr. Gass did not just now decide to try and make this manditory on
every saw. This was going on 3 or 4 years ago.


That's where I draw the line. In my opinion he wants to use
government intervention has a short cut to riches. And that's just
wrong.

Well we partially agree here. I too do not want government to get involved
in every thing, however you have to admit that in the real world this is not
possible. The government is going to get involved, Period,
I hate the thought of affirmative action, I hate that I have to buy
insurance for me and the other guy to be able to drive and yet the guy that
runs in to you has no insurance.
My point of view is simple, of all the things that people have convinced the
government to require and cram down my throat the SawStop is more palitable.
I am not going to change my openion because of the way it is being or not
being brought to market. Basically I am not going to cut my nose off to
spite my face. I still make my judgement in the value of the product for
what it is and not how it was brought to be.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 21:56:35 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
. ..

I'm not going to bother. I won't be a SawStop customer.

That's what I thought.


It's not because of the device. I like it. I was wishing them
success. They appeared to be going down the right path. Then they
just had to try for government regulation to get what they can't get
on their own.

George, read my other response to you. We probably agree more than
disagree. I made some comments about my point of view.

On 6 Sep 2006 08:05:17 -0700, "RayV" wrote:


R. Pierce Butler wrote:

I find the numbers a bit hard to believe. How many table saw users are
there? I can't find a single person at work that owns one.


I can't say I know everyone where I work, but I know 5 people have
one, counting me. And then there's relatives that own one, so yeah,
there's probably a lot of table saws out there.

On 5 Sep 2006 21:09:38 -0700, "mike" wrote:


I respect the technology and I believe that the SawStop is an excellant
product. I do not like the fact that the manufacture is trying to
force his product down my throat. I want to make the buying decision,
not being forced by some lawyer!

I can not believe his mission in life is to make all of us woodworkers
safe, but to line his own pockets!

Mike
Agreed!
But I see this (the meeting) as the necessary political fluff. The
collective lobby of the major mfg's will almost certainly water down
what comes out of these panel diiscussions.

On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:47:38 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

Either way, it's a good technology and if money was no object for people, I
think this technology would not be receiving near as many negative comments
that it has.

We'll see what happens when they get their contractor saw version out.
I think I read something in the $750-800 range. $3000 for the cabinet
version is pretty tough to take when you're using a $550 saw now. An
extra $200 doesn't seem like very much for what you're getting.

But you can bet this is spurring every saw manufacturer to have their
R&D department working on ways to do it while gettng around the guy's
patent. They'll promise they're going to do it themselves without the
law.

Once everyone is doing it I don't think it will be adding more than
$100 to the cost


-Leuf

What you need is my new IdiotSaw. We've thoughtfully silkscreened
"You're an idiot" on all sides of the base to save you valuable time.

Look for our future product that will audibly berate you whenever a
loud noise is detected. Accepting preorders now! You must be at
least 18 to order.

I don't think I will need your product. I already have one incorporated
into my shop. Every time I come into the house with a new bruise, cut, bang
or make to much noise in the shop SWMBO gives me the lecture.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:40:15 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
.. .


Snip of views that you and I totally agree with.


This was going to be a good old fashioned success story. Until now.
Now Mr. Gass feels it's necessary to get the government to force
everyone to use his device. I know, I know, they won't couch it in
words exactly like that, they'll use words that say something like "a
device to eliminate or reduce injury from contacting a rotating saw
blade" or somesuch. And all the while essentialy mean to use Saw
Stop.

Well, Mr. Gass did not just now decide to try and make this manditory on
every saw. This was going on 3 or 4 years ago.

Yeah, I know. I read the story in Design News today. Probably read
some of the same stuff I'd read before but forgot. He definitely has
an adversarial relationship with the tool makers.

BTW, aside from the tool industry being in opposition to this,
Underwriters Laboratory (UL) is also in opposition to the CPSC filing.
I'm taking that to mean that there's likely more to this than money or
legal issues.

I'm thinking reliability and the possible issue of false triggering.
Personally, I'd really hate to wreck a Forrest WW2 that way.



That's where I draw the line. In my opinion he wants to use
government intervention has a short cut to riches. And that's just
wrong.

Well we partially agree here. I too do not want government to get involved
in every thing, however you have to admit that in the real world this is not
possible. The government is going to get involved, Period,
I hate the thought of affirmative action, I hate that I have to buy
insurance for me and the other guy to be able to drive and yet the guy that
runs in to you has no insurance.


My point of view is simple, of all the things that people have convinced the
government to require and cram down my throat the SawStop is more palitable.
I am not going to change my openion because of the way it is being or not
being brought to market. Basically I am not going to cut my nose off to
spite my face. I still make my judgement in the value of the product for
what it is and not how it was brought to be.


And now the matter of government regulation.

I don't know that we're going to completely agree on this. Here's
where I am: Consider airbags in cars: I don't see the Saw Stop as a
device of similar importance. There are far more cars than saws and
the cost of injurys due to automobiles is surely far greater.

Where would you draw the line? Do you not already know that *all* the
tools in your shop that have an edge can cut and injure? Are you
careless with their use? I'll bet you and I already know the answers
to those.

We're not talking cars, or building codes for bridges or space
shuttles. We're talking table saws. Something that everyone knows
can cut and maim if not outright kill. The rules of operation are
clear. This is a cold piece of metal that has no feeling and simply
cuts (or tries to) whatever contacts the blade.

So yes, this is where I draw the line. Enough is enough. The TS is
NOT unreasonably dangerous. It does exactly what is required. It has
sharp teeth, it cuts wood. It would cut my hand off too if I let it.
You know that, I know that.

If it's o.k. to regulate a TS, then what? Your jointer? Planer?
Bandsaw? What about the lathe? I've had chunks come flying off the
chuck. Should there be a government rule for that?

I'm serious - where does it end?

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:40:15 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:



Well we partially agree here. I too do not want government to get involved
in every thing, however you have to admit that in the real world this is not
possible.
My point of view is simple, of all the things that people have convinced the
government to require and cram down my throat the SawStop is more palitable.
I am not going to change my openion because of the way it is being or not
being brought to market. Basically I am not going to cut my nose off to
spite my face. I still make my judgement in the value of the product for
what it is and not how it was brought to be.


Oh yeah, one other thing.

FWW did a report on tablesaws not long ago where the Saw Stop was
favorable reviewed. Impressive.

I've also been to their website looking at their machine. Again, very
nice. My personal preference in fences is a Biesemeyer, but I'll bet
Delta isn't making a retrofit model for the Saw Stop. hahaha

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 02:23:57 GMT, George Max
wrote:

Reposting a message I found in ABPW:

(FWIW)

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:47:54 -0500, 25th Century Quaker
wrote:

Safety Innovator and SawStop Founder Stephen Gass to Meet With CPSC
Head; Open Meeting Held to Discuss Proposed New Safety Rule

9/5/2006 10:23:00 AM
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=71705

To: National Desk

Contact: Joe Householder, 713-301-0733, or
, for SawStop

WASHINGTON, Sept. 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- On Wednesday, Sept. 6, Acting
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) Chair Nancy Nord will hold
an open meeting with SawStop founder Stephen Gass to discuss a
proposed new safety rule that could save the American economy billions
of dollars each year and prevent thousands of workplace and home
injuries. Gass is the inventor of the SawStop technology, which
drastically reduces the risk of injury in the use of table saws.

According to the CPSC, there are 55,000 table saw injuries each year
with an estimated cost to society of $2 billion. Many of those
injuries occur when an operator's fingers or hand comes into contact
with the rapidly spinning table saw blade. These injuries are often
devastating, ruining careers, putting families into emotional and
financial turmoil and disrupting businesses.

"So many of those injuries can be prevented," said Gass. The proven
SawStop technology stops a table saw blade within milliseconds after
it comes into contact with human skin, in most cases resulting in a
small nick, rather than an amputation.

Presently, CPSC staff is developing an Advanced Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking which, if it ultimately becomes an official rule, will
require all table saw manufacturers to ensure that blade contact
injuries result in a minor injury.

"The proposed rule under consideration by the CPSC would prevent
thousands of life-altering table saw injuries each year," said Gass.
"It would preserve jobs, reduce costs to employers, cut worker
compensation claims and ensure that families don't suffer the
emotional and financial devastation that these injuries cause."

The meeting, which is open to the public and the news media, will be
at 11 a.m. on Wednesday, Sept. 6. It will be held in the hearing room
at CPSC Headquarters, 4330 East West Highway, Bethesda, Md., 20814

For more information about SawStop and this innovative technology,
visit its Web page at http://www.sawstop.com.

I Googled *Table Saw Accidents*

This came up on the first page-
http://www.eh.doe.gov/paa/oesummary/...20accidents%22

* The worker was not trained to operate a TS
* The worker was wearingleather gloves while operating the TS
* The worker was cutting a semi-rigid foam on the TS
* The guard had been removed from the TS

While this is but one case, it shows that accidents do happen when
proper procedure is not followed.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 02:23:57 GMT, George Max
wrote:

Reposting a message I found in ABPW:

(FWIW)

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:47:54 -0500, 25th Century Quaker
wrote:

Safety Innovator and SawStop Founder Stephen Gass to Meet With CPSC
Head; Open Meeting Held to Discuss Proposed New Safety Rule

9/5/2006 10:23:00 AM
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=71705

To: National Desk

Contact: Joe Householder, 713-301-0733, or
, for SawStop

WASHINGTON, Sept. 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- On Wednesday, Sept. 6, Acting
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) Chair Nancy Nord will hold
an open meeting with SawStop founder Stephen Gass to discuss a
proposed new safety rule that could save the American economy billions
of dollars each year and prevent thousands of workplace and home
injuries. Gass is the inventor of the SawStop technology, which
drastically reduces the risk of injury in the use of table saws.

According to the CPSC, there are 55,000 table saw injuries each year
with an estimated cost to society of $2 billion. Many of those
injuries occur when an operator's fingers or hand comes into contact
with the rapidly spinning table saw blade. These injuries are often
devastating, ruining careers, putting families into emotional and
financial turmoil and disrupting businesses.

"So many of those injuries can be prevented," said Gass. The proven
SawStop technology stops a table saw blade within milliseconds after
it comes into contact with human skin, in most cases resulting in a
small nick, rather than an amputation.

Presently, CPSC staff is developing an Advanced Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking which, if it ultimately becomes an official rule, will
require all table saw manufacturers to ensure that blade contact
injuries result in a minor injury.

"The proposed rule under consideration by the CPSC would prevent
thousands of life-altering table saw injuries each year," said Gass.
"It would preserve jobs, reduce costs to employers, cut worker
compensation claims and ensure that families don't suffer the
emotional and financial devastation that these injuries cause."

The meeting, which is open to the public and the news media, will be
at 11 a.m. on Wednesday, Sept. 6. It will be held in the hearing room
at CPSC Headquarters, 4330 East West Highway, Bethesda, Md., 20814

For more information about SawStop and this innovative technology,
visit its Web page at http://www.sawstop.com.

Google Search page #2

Tablesaw Accident - I'm an idiot
OK... It's official.... I'm an IDIOT and my left thumb is almost a
1/2" shorter to prove it. This happened last Saturday, March 11.

What was I thinking when I was....
- running a tablesaw when my mind was pre-occupied on another matter.
(Biggest Mistake!!!!!)
- running a tablesaw without my blade gaurd in place
- running a tablesaw without using my push sticks.

Answer: I wasn't thinking at all.

Anyway.. not paying attention, I reached for the cut off material and
put my thumb right into the blade. Cut the tip off instantly. Calmly
shut everything down, walked upstairs squeezing my thumb and told my
wife we had to go to the hospital. After her initial shock when I told
her not to look at it and just get me a clean wet rag, we headed for
the hospital.

I received great treatment by 2 orthapedic surgeons (one was in
training). They took x-rays, saw that I cut a through the tip of the
bone and also cracked it. After they numbed me up, we were all joking
about it as they went to work. Snip some bone here, fold some skin
there, put some stitches here... I was all patched up.

The Doc asked my wife how much she was selling my tablesaw for and she
told him it was free... and to come get it if he was interested.
Obviously, I failed to see the humor in that.

Anyway, the moral of the story is to have your mind on your work and
tools and use common sense... which... obviously... I lack.

"Leuf" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:47:38 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

Either way, it's a good technology and if money was no object for people,
I
think this technology would not be receiving near as many negative
comments
that it has.

We'll see what happens when they get their contractor saw version out.
I think I read something in the $750-800 range. $3000 for the cabinet
version is pretty tough to take when you're using a $550 saw now. An
extra $200 doesn't seem like very much for what you're getting.

But you can bet this is spurring every saw manufacturer to have their
R&D department working on ways to do it while gettng around the guy's
patent. They'll promise they're going to do it themselves without the
law.

Once everyone is doing it I don't think it will be adding more than
$100 to the cost


-Leuf

The longer you have to think about a $2000 upgrade, the easier that pill is
to swallow.
Had my TV broken down 2 years ago it would have been repaired. Since I had
been looking at $2500 for a new one for the last 2 years the one I bought 2
weeks ago for $2000 was much easier to swallow. LOL

I hope you are correct about others coming up with other ways to add serious
safety improvements as this is the first step taken in many many years
towards user safety.

Finding the keyboard operational
George Max entered:


You must be either a SawStop saw owner or an employee of their company
in some fashion.

Now that is just uncalled for. Do you know the OP? Then why do you attempt
to discredit his statements this way. You only make your postings
meaningless because of your attitude.
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

"George Max" wrote in message
...

Yeah, I know. I read the story in Design News today. Probably read
some of the same stuff I'd read before but forgot. He definitely has
an adversarial relationship with the tool makers.

Yeah, LOL They are afraid of him, guaranteed.

A similar story, when I was 29 I worked for an Oldsmobile dealership in
Houston. I was the service sales manager and during one of our weekly
meetings with the owner he informed us on how a meeting went with all the
area Old's dealers that took him to lunch and bought him drinks. Our
franchise was only about 1 year old and the dealers wanted to tell our boss
how " It worked".
Our dealer decided to not have car salesmen and instead soaped the bottom
sell price on the wind shield of each car. The customer paid that price,
period. That price did not allow enough profit for a salesman and or his
comission. The other dealers were loosing sales to us in a serious way and
they did not like it. That workded very well for many years.


BTW, aside from the tool industry being in opposition to this,
Underwriters Laboratory (UL) is also in opposition to the CPSC filing.
I'm taking that to mean that there's likely more to this than money or
legal issues.

Sounds like it.


I'm thinking reliability and the possible issue of false triggering.
Personally, I'd really hate to wreck a Forrest WW2 that way.

As would I however I enjoy or don't enjoy the value of actual experience and
have a different view on that subject. I was not too big on the saw either
until I learned from SawStop many years ago that the cartridge works when a
dado blade is installed and when the saw is turned OFF. My accident
involved both and was not during the normal operation of the saw. I
certainly would have rather lost a blade than half of my thumb.
Additionally I had the same view as most others here, I am too careful for
this to happen to me. My friends and relatives could not believe that this
happend to me, of all people. I had no idea what happeded until 1 year
later when It almost happened again. Accidents happen whether you are
prepaired or not. Thinking you are safe and thinking you are doing
everything safely does not always work.


And now the matter of government regulation.

I don't know that we're going to completely agree on this. Here's
where I am: Consider airbags in cars: I don't see the Saw Stop as a
device of similar importance. There are far more cars than saws and
the cost of injurys due to automobiles is surely far greater.

Where would you draw the line? Do you not already know that *all* the
tools in your shop that have an edge can cut and injure? Are you
careless with their use? I'll bet you and I already know the answers
to those.

My line moves a lot. As I learn and become more experienced my line goes
farther towards more safety.
I already know that the tools in my shop can harm me with out being turned
on. Its the ability to help prevent a more serious unexpected injury that
concerns me more. Common injuries are easier to prevent. It's the injury
that you have never heard of or dreamed about that is the one you cannot
normally guard against.

I bet Steve Irwin never dreamed of what happened to him in the last couple
of days. He seemed careless to many but obviousely he was no novice.
Unfortunately he did not know all the possibilities and this possibility was
the one that got him.

We're not talking cars, or building codes for bridges or space
shuttles. We're talking table saws. Something that everyone knows
can cut and maim if not outright kill. The rules of operation are
clear. This is a cold piece of metal that has no feeling and simply
cuts (or tries to) whatever contacts the blade.

So yes, this is where I draw the line. Enough is enough. The TS is
NOT unreasonably dangerous. It does exactly what is required. It has
sharp teeth, it cuts wood. It would cut my hand off too if I let it.
You know that, I know that.

If it's o.k. to regulate a TS, then what? Your jointer? Planer?
Bandsaw? What about the lathe? I've had chunks come flying off the
chuck. Should there be a government rule for that?

Should progress ever end??? What would be wrong with a safer jointer, or
planer, or bandsaw?
Most everything is expensive when first introduced but becomes cheaper to
manufacture in quantity.

If government has to or does intervien for our safety, blame the tool
manufacturers for maintaining status quo. The companies that we give our
money to should have more interest in our safety than our government.

I'm serious - where does it end?

I hope safety advancements never end and I hope the manufacturers will learn
to consider our safety before they are forced to do so by the government.
The problem is that we have become lazy and too acceptable of the same ole
same ole. Like it or not SawStop has brought a breath of fresh air to the
tool industry.

Finding the keyboard operational
George Max entered:

Reposting a message I found in ABPW:

(FWIW)

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:47:54 -0500, 25th Century Quaker
wrote:

Safety Innovator and SawStop Founder Stephen Gass to Meet With CPSC
Head; Open Meeting Held to Discuss Proposed New Safety Rule

9/5/2006 10:23:00 AM
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=71705

To: National Desk

Contact: Joe Householder, 713-301-0733, or
, for SawStop

WASHINGTON, Sept. 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- On Wednesday, Sept. 6, Acting
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) Chair Nancy Nord will hold
an open meeting with SawStop founder Stephen Gass to discuss a
proposed new safety rule that could save the American economy
billions of dollars each year and prevent thousands of workplace and
home injuries. Gass is the inventor of the SawStop technology, which
drastically reduces the risk of injury in the use of table saws.

According to the CPSC, there are 55,000 table saw injuries each year
with an estimated cost to society of $2 billion. Many of those
injuries occur when an operator's fingers or hand comes into contact
with the rapidly spinning table saw blade. These injuries are often
devastating, ruining careers, putting families into emotional and
financial turmoil and disrupting businesses.

"So many of those injuries can be prevented," said Gass. The proven
SawStop technology stops a table saw blade within milliseconds after
it comes into contact with human skin, in most cases resulting in a
small nick, rather than an amputation.

Presently, CPSC staff is developing an Advanced Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking which, if it ultimately becomes an official rule, will
require all table saw manufacturers to ensure that blade contact
injuries result in a minor injury.

"The proposed rule under consideration by the CPSC would prevent
thousands of life-altering table saw injuries each year," said Gass.
"It would preserve jobs, reduce costs to employers, cut worker
compensation claims and ensure that families don't suffer the
emotional and financial devastation that these injuries cause."

The meeting, which is open to the public and the news media, will be
at 11 a.m. on Wednesday, Sept. 6. It will be held in the hearing room
at CPSC Headquarters, 4330 East West Highway, Bethesda, Md., 20814

For more information about SawStop and this innovative technology,
visit its Web page at http://www.sawstop.com.

After reading the other responses, I think this is actually good news and
let me explain. First of all this is not going to lead to SawStop being
mandated. It may lead to more tablesaw safety which is a good thing for all
of us.
This was an open meeting. Do you think that saw and other safety equipment
manufacturers. weren't there? Do you think that someone else may be working
on another method to prevent table saw injuries? None of this is occuring in
a vacumm and in the long run will save all of us money.
For every worker that gets injured there is a very real possibility that the
cost of insurance will increase. This will be passed down to the consumer
as higher prices of course. As insurance prices go up, some Mfrs will have
to close their doors. More likely ship their manufacturing overseas. More
unemployment, another ding in your paycheck.
Remember the poor guy who got cut? Could be that he's hurt bad enough that
when his disability runs out, he's going on Social Security Disability.
Guess who pays for that.
Oh, don't forget the food stamps.

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's, nothing
that has been said about the government forcing something down your throat
wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time, seatbelts were adding
about $50.00 to the cost of the car. Go to the NTSB site and look up how
many lives seatbelts have saved.

Bob
--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

"The Other Funk" wrote in message
news:_JKLg.12603$ub5.7518@trnddc07...
After reading the other responses, I think this is actually good news and
let me explain. First of all this is not going to lead to SawStop being
mandated. It may lead to more tablesaw safety which is a good thing for
all of us.
This was an open meeting. Do you think that saw and other safety equipment
manufacturers. weren't there? Do you think that someone else may be
working on another method to prevent table saw injuries? None of this is
occuring in a vacumm and in the long run will save all of us money.
For every worker that gets injured there is a very real possibility that
the cost of insurance will increase. This will be passed down to the
consumer as higher prices of course. As insurance prices go up, some Mfrs
will have to close their doors. More likely ship their manufacturing
overseas. More unemployment, another ding in your paycheck.
Remember the poor guy who got cut? Could be that he's hurt bad enough that
when his disability runs out, he's going on Social Security Disability.
Guess who pays for that.
Oh, don't forget the food stamps.

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's, nothing
that has been said about the government forcing something down your throat
wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time, seatbelts were adding
about $50.00 to the cost of the car. Go to the NTSB site and look up how
many lives seatbelts have saved.

Great post Bob, Its nice to enjoy a comment from some one that has an open
mind about the big picture and not just about how something will affect you
personally.

The Other Funk wrote:

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's,
nothing that has been said about the government forcing something down
your throat wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time,
seatbelts were adding about $50.00 to the cost of the car.

Yeah, but $50 on a $10000 car is a bit different than $400 on a $2000 saw.

(Remember, currently Sawstop has multiple patents on the concept, and
wants 8% of the purchase price in royalties on top of the added cost of
the mechanism.)

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
The Other Funk wrote:

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's,
nothing that has been said about the government forcing something down
your throat wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time,
seatbelts were adding about $50.00 to the cost of the car.

Yeah, but $50 on a $10000 car is a bit different than $400 on a $2000 saw.

(Remember, currently Sawstop has multiple patents on the concept, and
wants 8% of the purchase price in royalties on top of the added cost of
the mechanism.)

Chris

Great post Chris, Its nice to enjoy a comment from someone that has an
open
mind about the big picture.

I'm not opposed to safety features but I agree with those that say,
"hey a tablesaw is dangerous watch what you're doing". A TS is not
nearly as common as a CMS or a sawzall. To me a sawzall is far more
dangerous than any TS.

And here is my anecdotal CMS story. Buddy of mine had to replace the
gears in his saw and reached around to turn it on. Allen wrench ended
up completely embedded in the palm of his hand with about 1/2" of the
long end visible. Ambulance ride, X-rays, local anistetic (sp?) and
the doc just pulled it out with a twist. No permanent damage except
his pride.

There are plenty of tools a lot more common than the TS that can hurt
people except nobody has figured out a way to patent a feature to make
money from govt. mandate. If I remember correctly Volvo has many of
the automotive safety patents and didn't/doesn't charge the other
manufacturers to use them. Pretty sure their seatbelt mechanism is the
one still used today. If this guy is really all about safety he could
let the other companies use his patents gratis...

In article ,
George Max wrote:
...portions snipped for brevity...

You know that, I know that.
Yeah, I know. I read the story in Design News today. Probably read
some of the same stuff I'd read before but forgot. He definitely has
an adversarial relationship with the tool makers.



If it's o.k. to regulate a TS, then what? Your jointer? Planer?
Bandsaw? What about the lathe? I've had chunks come flying off the
chuck. Should there be a government rule for that?

I'm serious - where does it end?

Meat slicer at the deli?

--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:32:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

As would I however I enjoy or don't enjoy the value of actual experience and
have a different view on that subject. I was not too big on the saw either
until I learned from SawStop many years ago that the cartridge works when a
dado blade is installed and when the saw is turned OFF. My accident
involved both and was not during the normal operation of the saw. I
certainly would have rather lost a blade than half of my thumb.

Wait.. I assumed when power was off so was the detection. So if I
accidently brush against the blade while I'm cleaning off the table it
fires and I have to buy a new blade and replace the cartridge? What
happens when I go to change blades? I assume there's an override, but
what worries me is if it's easy to override and a false detection
means I am out $150-200 that I'd just leave the sucker in the override
position when it's not on, and then the one time I forget to switch it
back that's when something happens.


-Leuf

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:06:13 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I hope you are correct about others coming up with other ways to add serious
safety improvements as this is the first step taken in many many years
towards user safety.

One other thing is that while Sawstop says there's no way to upgrade
an old saw with the technology, I can't see as how all the cast iron
of the top and the motor can't be reused, and those combined are a
substantial proportion of the cost of the saw, and the weight of the
machine. And of course the fence can be reused. So I don't see why
the manufacturers couldn't offer just the cabinet and guts as an
upgrade path.


-Leuf

Puckdropper wrote:


Doesn't the glove get in the way of the cut?



That's precisely the function of the blocker!

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:07:17 GMT, "The Other Funk"
wrote:

Finding the keyboard operational

BTW, I like that line above. Very funny.

George Max entered:


You must be either a SawStop saw owner or an employee of their company
in some fashion.

Now that is just uncalled for. Do you know the OP? Then why do you attempt
to discredit his statements this way. You only make your postings
meaningless because of your attitude.
Bob

No, I don't. He's probably a nice guy. However, if you've read all
the message exchanges, you'll note that the tone one of his replies to
me was equally "uncalled for."

Some part of the problem here is that the Saw Stop people are looking
for governmental relief to the problem of injuries. Governmental
involvement is a huge negative in my opinion.

Saw Stop, IMHO has a long long way to go to fully prove out that their
method is essentially infallible. I think they made giant strides
towards proving the worth of their device by introducing a good
cabinet saw with it. Several years use of thousands of saws
collecting honest data for all possible real world conditions could go
farther to win the hearts and minds of tablesaw consumers than an
attempt at regulation.

It's almost like they have flaws that they want glossed over and want
to hurry up and get their device codified as the standard.

I was concerned about obvious things like false triggering. That'd be
a serious problem. But then another poster pointed out that possibly
it might trigger when the saw is off! Wow, another possible concern.
Imagine that triggering while simply changing blades. There's likely
other possibilities can't think of.

Call me paranoid if you must. But in the end, among the things that
Saw Stops inventors are is that they are lawyers, skilled in the art
of manipulating the rules we live by.

And last, more safety is a good thing. I feel that since it's
apparent technology has advanced to the point that additional safety
is now possible, then sure, add 'em on. But don't use governmental
authority to grant a monopoly to Saw Stop. Otherwise it's sort of
like opening the vault and letting them just take the money.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:57:00 -0500, ()
wrote:

In article ,
George Max wrote:

I'm serious - where does it end?

Meat slicer at the deli?

Imagine that - a saw stop device triggering every time the clerk tries
to slice the pastrami for you.

On 6 Sep 2006 19:42:25 -0700, "RayV" wrote:


Chris Friesen wrote:
The Other Funk wrote:

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's,
nothing that has been said about the government forcing something down
your throat wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time,
seatbelts were adding about $50.00 to the cost of the car.

Yeah, but $50 on a $10000 car is a bit different than $400 on a $2000 saw.

(Remember, currently Sawstop has multiple patents on the concept, and
wants 8% of the purchase price in royalties on top of the added cost of
the mechanism.)

Chris

Great post Chris, Its nice to enjoy a comment from someone that has an
open
mind about the big picture.

I'm not opposed to safety features but I agree with those that say,
"hey a tablesaw is dangerous watch what you're doing". A TS is not
nearly as common as a CMS or a sawzall. To me a sawzall is far more
dangerous than any TS.

Don't forget chainsaws


There are plenty of tools a lot more common than the TS that can hurt
people except nobody has figured out a way to patent a feature to make
money from govt. mandate. If I remember correctly Volvo has many of
the automotive safety patents and didn't/doesn't charge the other
manufacturers to use them. Pretty sure their seatbelt mechanism is the
one still used today. If this guy is really all about safety he could
let the other companies use his patents gratis...


And remember, for all those that read or have read my other posts,
it's not the device so much that I have a problem with, it's the end
run they're doing to try getting it codified into what is essentially
law.

The Other Funk wrote:

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's, nothing
that has been said about the government forcing something down your throat
wasn't said back then about seatbelts.**At*the*time,*seatbelts*were*adding
about $50.00 to the cost of the car. Go to the NTSB site and look up how
many lives seatbelts have saved.


Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a helmet.
But it should be my decision, not forced on me.

Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

"Leuf" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:06:13 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I hope you are correct about others coming up with other ways to add
serious
safety improvements as this is the first step taken in many many years
towards user safety.

One other thing is that while Sawstop says there's no way to upgrade
an old saw with the technology, I can't see as how all the cast iron
of the top and the motor can't be reused, and those combined are a
substantial proportion of the cost of the saw, and the weight of the
machine. And of course the fence can be reused. So I don't see why
the manufacturers couldn't offer just the cabinet and guts as an
upgrade path.


-Leuf

Good point. From what I gather the trunion and blade brake are basically
the only differences. Oh yeah, I looked at the owners manual and IIRC
there a lot of lock out sensors and a computer chip that monitors settings,
and other functions.

"Leuf" wrote in message
...


Wait.. I assumed when power was off so was the detection. So if I
accidently brush against the blade while I'm cleaning off the table it
fires and I have to buy a new blade and replace the cartridge?

No, from what I uynderstand the system is activated and then you turn on the
saw. Turning off the saw motor does not disable the system so that you are
protected during spin down. After it stops it does not fire. I would
imagine an accidental firing of the cartride in to a stopped blade may not
do harm to either unless the cartridge is a one time fire piece regardless
if it is damaged or not. This I do not know.


What
happens when I go to change blades? I assume there's an override, but
what worries me is if it's easy to override and a false detection
means I am out $150-200 that I'd just leave the sucker in the override
position when it's not on, and then the one time I forget to switch it
back that's when something happens.


Again I doubt serious harm would be done to the blade. The real harm comes
when the blade comes to a sudden stop from 100 MPH.

Check this out, it is interesting and informative.
http://www.sawstop.com/documents/Cab...ManualV2.3.pdf

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:57:00 -0500, ()
wrote:

In article ,
George Max wrote:

I'm serious - where does it end?

Meat slicer at the deli?

Imagine that - a saw stop device triggering every time the clerk tries
to slice the pastrami for you.

Euwwww.. That would require a human skin detector. Bad visual.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...


Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a
helmet.
But it should be my decision, not forced on me.


Well, If I did not have to buy auto insurance to protect me AND the other
guy I would say the helmet should be optional also. But, if you do not wear
it and are insured and file a claim for a head injury we all have to help
pay for your rehab. Insurance premiums are high but are not a wash when
the cost of your head injury goes in to the hundreds of thousands of
dollars. The other policy holders have to pitch in then with higher
premiums.



Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:44:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Leuf" wrote in message
.. .


Wait.. I assumed when power was off so was the detection. So if I
accidently brush against the blade while I'm cleaning off the table it
fires and I have to buy a new blade and replace the cartridge?

No, from what I uynderstand the system is activated and then you turn on the
saw. Turning off the saw motor does not disable the system so that you are
protected during spin down. After it stops it does not fire. I would
imagine an accidental firing of the cartride in to a stopped blade may not
do harm to either unless the cartridge is a one time fire piece regardless
if it is damaged or not. This I do not know.

Okay, that makes more sense. Reading through the manual there are 3
power switches. One that physically disconnects power for making
adjustments where you're going to get your hands near the blade. A
master power that turns on the detection system (5-10 seconds to do
system check) and then the paddle that turns on the motor. If you
turn the master power off while the blade is moving you don't have
protection.

And yes, when the system fires you have to replace the cartridge at
$70 a pop. $90 for the dado cartridge. Though in the manual it says
if you send them the activated cartridge after an incident they'll
replace it free, but not for a misfire.

What
happens when I go to change blades? I assume there's an override, but
what worries me is if it's easy to override and a false detection
means I am out $150-200 that I'd just leave the sucker in the override
position when it's not on, and then the one time I forget to switch it
back that's when something happens.


Again I doubt serious harm would be done to the blade. The real harm comes
when the blade comes to a sudden stop from 100 MPH.

If it were to fire with the blade stopped I'd imagine you'd at least
risk breaking a tooth. But it looks like that shouldn't happen once
you get used to the dual power switch.

It also appears they've added in some ways to try to detect wet wood
vs skin, and it will just shut the motor off without firing if it
detects that.


-Leuf

Finding the keyboard operational
George Max entered:

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:07:17 GMT, "The Other Funk"
wrote:

Finding the keyboard operational

BTW, I like that line above. Very funny.

Yeah it's like the "KEYBOARD NOT CONNECTED, PRESS F1 FOR HELP".
I had a friend of mine use that for a screen saver. His sense of humor was
warped too.
But back to the topic. I am totaly against government involvement where
unnecessary. But we are going to get this one like it or not. Mr.Gass isn't
going to be the one to push this through. It's the people who make it sound
like they are on your side but aren't. Yes boys and girls, the insurance
lobby. Insurance companies hate to pay claims. Hate may not be strong enough
a word. So we will see this and soon. (my WAG)
False triggers are going to be a problem. Not maybe, will. And it won't be
long before someone hacks the controller. Then someone will come up with a
new sensor that is less prone to false triggering or a blade that won't be
destroyed.
My position is that SawStop or someother braking device will be on all new
table saws in the near future. The good thing is that it will save some
people from injury, The really stupid will get hurt anyhow. Even if we write
to all 100 senators and the 200+? congressmen, all we will get is noise.
If I take my prognostication a wee bit further - CMS, bandsaws and scroll
saws will be next.
What has got me stumped is how they will stop us from getting hurt with a
hammer.
Bob


--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
Chris Friesen entered:

The Other Funk wrote:

Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's,
nothing that has been said about the government forcing something
down your throat wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time,
seatbelts were adding about $50.00 to the cost of the car.

Yeah, but $50 on a $10000 car is a bit different than $400 on a $2000
saw.
(Remember, currently Sawstop has multiple patents on the concept, and
wants 8% of the purchase price in royalties on top of the added cost
of the mechanism.)

Chris

$50.00 in 1965 = $297.91 today. http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
IIRC Dads first new car in 1965 cost $3800.00
If, and that is a big if, Sawstops technology is the only approved method
then they won't be getting 8% unless they can prove that is what they need
to recoup their research.

Bob
PS If you want to freak out your kids, go to http://www.1960sflashback.com/
and show them what the good ol days mean.


--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

"George Max" wrote in message
Meat slicer at the deli?

Imagine that - a saw stop device triggering every time the clerk tries
to slice the pastrami for you.

Well, considering there's a store on the ground floor of my apartment
building with an excellent deli section in it, I'd be a good 30 pounds
lighter if the meat slicer stopped every time I went to buy. Sounds like a
winner to me.

"Mike M" wrote in message
I think you're right Leon, it will be awhile I think before its big with
the home consumer, but for shops the potential insurance savings and
what OSHa may adopt for rules I think you'll eventually see a lot of
it and expanded to other tools.

Along those lines, Robin at Lee Valley admitted a few months back that
they're swapping out regular saws for sawstops in all their facilities. The
long and short of it is that it's just too costly not to adopt the
technology.

"sweetsawdust" wrote in message

What you need is my new IdiotSaw. We've thoughtfully silkscreened
"You're an idiot" on all sides of the base to save you valuable time.

I don't think I will need your product. I already have one incorporated
into my shop. Every time I come into the house with a new bruise, cut,
bang
or make to much noise in the shop SWMBO gives me the lecture.

Oh wow, you've got voice operated IdiotSaw protection. Can't get much safer
than that!

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:13:53 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote:

The Other Funk wrote:


Yeah, but $50 on a $10000 car is a bit different than $400 on a $2000 saw.

(Remember, currently Sawstop has multiple patents on the concept, and
wants 8% of the purchase price in royalties on top of the added cost of
the mechanism.)

Chris

Wow. That would explain why the other saw manufacturers would have
nothing to do with it.

What happens... if this gizmo fails to do it's thing and someone get
injured? Electro-mechanical devices are NOT foolproof. There are
lots of talented fools out there.

A worker gets lackadaisical in their habits because he KNOWS he won't
get hurt because of the sawstop, and then it doesn't.

Imagine the number of zero's on that product liability check.
================================================== =========================
Chris

Leon wrote:


"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...


Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a
helmet.
But it should be my decision, not forced on me.


Well, If I did not have to buy auto insurance to protect me AND the other
guy I would say the helmet should be optional also. But, if you do not wear
it and are insured and file a claim for a head injury we all have to help
pay for your rehab.

Just as I pay for the skiers with broken legs, the ATV riders who overturn,
the drivers with cell phones plastered to their ears, etc, etc.

We all pay for each others risks. If the insurance companies wanted, they
could refuse to pay out for people who didn't wear their helmets, seat belts,
etc. But rather than be the bad guys, they lobby to make the laws do their
work for them.


--
It's turtles, all the way down