Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide panels
and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I couldn't
eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it, but I sure didn't
like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it held my full weight jumping
on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and only
using two biscuits.

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot. I
have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to make
it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them together, and I
have to make my slots a hair deeper.

Does this make any sense, or is my problem likely to be elsewhere?

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end up
a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening one
side?

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

Toller wrote:
I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide panels
and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I couldn't
eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it, but I sure didn't
like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it held my full weight jumping
on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and only
using two biscuits.


What size biscuits? If they're 20s and you substitute a 10, does it go
away?

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message
...
I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide panels
and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I couldn't
eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it, but I sure
didn't like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it held my full weight
jumping on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and only
using two biscuits.

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

Does this make any sense, or is my problem likely to be elsewhere?

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end
up a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening
one side?

My experience is that, within reason, neither the depth nor the
width of the slots for biscuits is of concern. Only the distance of
the slot from the edge of the workpiece matters.

In fact, having a tad extra width means cutting slots EXACTLY
on the mark isn't a concern...close counts. "Perfect" isn't part
of the equation.

Therefore, given your description of the problem, I'd say your
slots aren't deep enough. And that puzzles me because, with
my buscuit cutter, "depth" is preset and I've never fiddled with
that.

Jim Stuyck

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

Toller wrote:
I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide
panels and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I
couldn't eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it,
but I sure didn't like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it
held my full weight jumping on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and
only using two biscuits.

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the
gap is uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a
biscuit with a central line, and the central line falls exactly on
the edge of the slot. I have thinking that maybe the clamping on
90degree joints is adequate to make it work, but the clamping on
45degree joints won't push them together, and I have to make my slots
a hair deeper.

Does this make any sense, or is my problem likely to be elsewhere?

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to
end up a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just
deepening one side?

Precision flatness of both sides of the wood is the key. ;-)


--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end
up
a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening
one
side?

Lay some 80 grit sandpaper on your workbench, rub the edge of a biscuit on
it until, when placed in the slot, the gap disappears.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/13/06

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Snip


Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good.

How do your joints fit with out the biscuits? The cuts/angles can be dead
on correct but if your parallel sides are unequal in length the joints will
not close.

If the joints close properly with out biscuits, adjust you cutter to cut a
bit deeper and closer to the inside of the joint.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message
...
I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide panels
and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I couldn't
eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it, but I sure
didn't like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it held my full weight
jumping on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and only
using two biscuits.

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

Does this make any sense, or is my problem likely to be elsewhere?

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end
up a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening
one side?

Are you sure the biscuit is preventing the mating surfaces from closing?
Cutting the slots deeper is not a big deal unless the slot emerges from the
end. You should be able to tell if the (dry) biscuit is more than halfway
into the slot on each side. I routinely cut my slots a touch deeper to
allow for glue expansion and to prevent hydraulic the joint.

Dave



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Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Lay some 80 grit sandpaper on your workbench, rub the edge of a biscuit on
it until, when placed in the slot, the gap disappears.


Hot enough for you? Bryan and I spent from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Saturday
replacing our water softener on the west side of the house. I have been
kicking back today.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Leon" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message


Lay some 80 grit sandpaper on your workbench, rub the edge of a biscuit
on
it until, when placed in the slot, the gap disappears.


Hot enough for you? Bryan and I spent from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.
Saturday
replacing our water softener on the west side of the house. I have been
kicking back today.

It's punishing outside ... been in and out all day overseeing a framing job.
At least I can leave ... those poor bastids have to stay and work!

BTW, this is one of the best, and fastest framing crews, I've ever used.
Frame1 package was delivered last Monday at 9:30 AM, they missed one entire
day of work for punch-out on another job, and on Friday morning I had to
order a building height survey!

Come by and take a look for yourself ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/13/06

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

It may be that the slots are not in line with each other. If they make a V
to the inside or the outside of the mitre the joint will align with the slot
and not the mitred edge. This would give you a gap at the inside or the
outside of the joint.
Let the rest of us know what the solution was when you find it as it may be
of some help to others.
Jim
"Toller" wrote in message
...
I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide panels
and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I couldn't
eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it, but I sure
didn't like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it held my full weight
jumping on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and only
using two biscuits.

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

Does this make any sense, or is my problem likely to be elsewhere?

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end
up a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening
one side?

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Come by and take a look for yourself ...

--

I'll try to get by there in the next couple of days.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end
up
a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening
one
side?

Lay some 80 grit sandpaper on your workbench, rub the edge of a biscuit on
it until, when placed in the slot, the gap disappears.

Excellent idea! Why didn't I think of it?
Anyhow, the gap dissappears with the sanded biscuits, so all is well.
Now the only issue is whether I should add a third biscuit in the middle
that is cut deeper.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message
...



Excellent idea! Why didn't I think of it?
Anyhow, the gap dissappears with the sanded biscuits, so all is well.
Now the only issue is whether I should add a third biscuit in the middle
that is cut deeper.

In the instance of using biscuits in mitered corners, the biscuits do add
considerable strength to the joint in addition to helping with alignment if
the joint is end grain to end grain or if the panels are plywood. The more
the better if the joint runs perpendicular to the grain.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message


"Toller" wrote in message

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to
end
up
a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening
one
side?

Lay some 80 grit sandpaper on your workbench, rub the edge of a biscuit
on
it until, when placed in the slot, the gap disappears.

Excellent idea! Why didn't I think of it?

That's why I get paid the big bucks ... yeah, right! ;)

Anyhow, the gap dissappears with the sanded biscuits, so all is well.
Now the only issue is whether I should add a third biscuit in the middle
that is cut deeper.

Splines and biscuits are two of the best ways to reinforce the inherently
weak miter joint. I would put as many, evenly spaced, that would not
structurally effect/weaken the parts.

I did the job for years with spines, but when finally brought kicking and
screaming into the modern technological world of biscuits a couple of years
back, it was Tom Watson who assured me that biscuits were fine for this
particular task. I haven't had a problem with them doing the job.

Seems you have a problem with biscuit size, or your plate joiner's depth of
cut ... you need to figure out which because this gap business shouldn't be
happening.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/13/06

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

Seems you have a problem with biscuit size, or your plate joiner's depth
of
cut ... you need to figure out which because this gap business shouldn't
be
happening.

I have done a thousand biscuits (PC joiner/PC Biscuit) with no problem, but
they were all 90 degrees. I think the clamping was adequate to bring them
together. Since clamping is at an angle to the biscuit on 45s, it just
isn't enough.
But making the cut a bit deeper for all biscuits would probably be prudent.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Seems you have a problem with biscuit size, or your plate joiner's depth
of
cut ... you need to figure out which because this gap business shouldn't
be
happening.

I have done a thousand biscuits (PC joiner/PC Biscuit) with no problem,
but they were all 90 degrees. I think the clamping was adequate to bring
them together. Since clamping is at an angle to the biscuit on 45s, it
just isn't enough.
But making the cut a bit deeper for all biscuits would probably be
prudent.

Keep in mind that the 90 degree angle does not require a deeper cut for the
biscuit than any other application of the biscuit. If you find that the
holes are too shallow on the 45's you may not be holding the joiner
perfectly perpendicular to the miter glue surface. You should insure that
you joiner is indeed tilted to the same degree as the miter cut to insure
that the biscuit is 90 degrees to the surface that it protrudes from.

Also band clamps work VERY well when clamping a container that fully closes
on all sides and again insure that your parallel sides are equal in length.

Biscuiting a miter joint?
 

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:37:15 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I made my first biscuited miter joint last week; with two 15" wide panels
and three biscuits.
It did not come out well; no matter how much I fussed with it I couldn't
eliminate the gap. Possibly no one would have noticed it, but I sure didn't
like it. (it couldn't have been too bad, as it held my full weight jumping
on it...)
So, I am redoing it, being more careful that my cuts are perfect, and only
using two biscuits.

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot. I
have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to make
it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them together, and I
have to make my slots a hair deeper.

Does this make any sense, or is my problem likely to be elsewhere?

I am not thrilled about the recutting my slots, as they are likely to end up
a bit wider than I would like; maybe I can get away with just deepening one
side?


Someone above mentioned using sandpaper and that can work.

I do a lot of stair tread nosing and run into the problem you describe
from time-to-time. When I see the gap in dry fit I just run the fine
side of a rasp over each edge of the biscuit.
If I were building a bridge I might worry about anything less than
full contact of all bicuit surfaces but for most applications these
small deviations will not become an issue.

I found that this is generally caused by operator error. If I slow
down and use the tools more precisely it does not occur. But I am
talking about gaps 1/16 and .

J

Worked just fine, thanks
 

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

I went though 100 biscuits and pulled out the narrowest ones. They varied
from 1.917 to 1.945, with most between 1.924 to 1.931.
Everything fits fine now.
I even upped the count from 2 per joint to 4.

One of these days I will increase the cutter depth a couple thousanths, but
it hasn't been a problem except on the angled cuts.

Worked just fine, thanks
 

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

I went though 100 biscuits and pulled out the narrowest ones. They varied
from 1.917 to 1.945, with most between 1.924 to 1.931.
Everything fits fine now.
I even upped the count from 2 per joint to 4.

One of these days I will increase the cutter depth a couple thousanths,
but it hasn't been a problem except on the angled cuts.
'
er.. 0.917 to 1.945 etc.

Worked just fine, thanks
 

In article , says...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

I went though 100 biscuits and pulled out the narrowest ones. They varied
from 1.917 to 1.945, with most between 1.924 to 1.931.
Everything fits fine now.
I even upped the count from 2 per joint to 4.

One of these days I will increase the cutter depth a couple thousanths,
but it hasn't been a problem except on the angled cuts.
'
er.. 0.917 to 1.945 etc.



Lemme see! They varied 0.018" (WOW! EIGHTEEN WHOLE THOUSANDTHS!). You
actually sorted 100 biscuits and took the time to measure some of them
to 3 decimal places when you could have reset the depth an eighth of an
inch or snipped off an edge? I don't mean to pry into your inner
thoughts, but I'm amazed you went to all that much trouble -- it ain't
brain surgery cutting biscuit slots. Besides, they're on the inside,
the slot is filled with glue, and the biscuit is going to expand with
the glue moisture. WHY??????

Worked just fine, thanks
 

"Tex" wrote in message
. ..
In article , says...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap
is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the
slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate
to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

I went though 100 biscuits and pulled out the narrowest ones. They
varied
from 1.917 to 1.945, with most between 1.924 to 1.931.
Everything fits fine now.
I even upped the count from 2 per joint to 4.

One of these days I will increase the cutter depth a couple thousanths,
but it hasn't been a problem except on the angled cuts.
'
er.. 0.917 to 1.945 etc.



Lemme see! They varied 0.018" (WOW! EIGHTEEN WHOLE THOUSANDTHS!). You
actually sorted 100 biscuits and took the time to measure some of them
to 3 decimal places when you could have reset the depth an eighth of an
inch or snipped off an edge? I don't mean to pry into your inner
thoughts, but I'm amazed you went to all that much trouble -- it ain't
brain surgery cutting biscuit slots. Besides, they're on the inside,
the slot is filled with glue, and the biscuit is going to expand with
the glue moisture. WHY??????

ah, because the wide ones caused a gap in my joint while the narrow ones
worked.
You amaze easily.

Worked just fine, thanks
 

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:16:36 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


Well, when I dry-fit it, there still a gap I can't get rid of; the gap is
uniform all across, so my cuts are good. I marked up a biscuit with a
central line, and the central line falls exactly on the edge of the slot.
I have thinking that maybe the clamping on 90degree joints is adequate to
make it work, but the clamping on 45degree joints won't push them
together, and I have to make my slots a hair deeper.

I went though 100 biscuits and pulled out the narrowest ones. They varied
from 1.917 to 1.945, with most between 1.924 to 1.931.
Everything fits fine now.
I even upped the count from 2 per joint to 4.

One of these days I will increase the cutter depth a couple thousanths, but
it hasn't been a problem except on the angled cuts.

Try repeating the measurement after microwaving the biscuits for about 20
seconds on medium...
Amazing difference in moisture holding ability between individual biscuits...
and I was using "brand name" biscuits, too... lol

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm