Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w

"Tim W" wrote in message
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck
of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Not sure what kind of brace you have or talking about, but the old one my
father had, used three teeth to grab any round bit or something with 3
sides. It also held the bit with the V notch in them that locked into place
on those tools designed to use them.

Still pretty much common in good old Europe.
See e.g.
http://www.dick.biz/cgi-bin/dick.sto...01_onl inekat
Product No. 707182

regards Matthias

Tim W wrote:
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck
of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w



Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it? Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

--

-Mike-

Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w



Hello, here is your catagory for eBay, in England:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/
Collectables Tools & Hardware Tools Carpentry/ Woodworking

There, you can see your catagory links on your left, and you can select "UK
only" in a drop down.

Braces are usually two jawed (98% of them), and the bits have a tapered
square head. Just search through all the pages until you find screwdriver bits
and a brace you want, the best ever made are Yankee Bell system by North
Bros., and later the same by Stanley, as long as it is a Yankee. The model
Nos. are 2101 and the better 2100, 10" swing (5" depth) size is most common.
As I see it, you have braces available there, and drill bits.

The two jawed chuck will also accept shanks that do not have the tapered
square head, as long as it is set in deep enough, so you could cut the handles
off a couple of old screwdrivers, not skinny ones. For drill bits you will need
a bit sharpening file if you buy them used. Only that file is properly designed
for the job, made by Nicholson and available at Lee Valley, or needle files
and small sharpening stones.

Here is an adapter you can get from the US,
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,180&p=42337
It will take 1/4" hex bits that are common, adapted to the brace chuck.

http://axminster.co.uk has a brace and the best bits that are new, but those
prices are beyond, I wouldn't do it.

If you can get someting like Craftsman "screw outs", they could probably
work in a brace as well:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...=00 952154000
I don't know if Craftsman is sold over there, check axminster for them.

Good luck,

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Mike Marlow wrote:
"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool
for removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation
is a screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill
thing). Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no
source. Were these items once manufactured? Are they still
available? Posi also? in the uk? with the old square section tapered
shank for locking into the chuck
of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked
bit?

Tim w



Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it?
Brace and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a
decent motor with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

I fear I must disagree with that. A power drill is no substitute for a
brace when it comes to what the OP is talking about. With a brace, it
is easier to apply force parallel to the screw to keep the bit in the
screw head; easier to tweak it out too since the rotation is as slow as
one wants.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Tim W wrote:
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool
for removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is
a screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill
thing). Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no
source. Were these items once manufactured? Are they still available?
Posi also? in the uk? with the old square section tapered shank for
locking into the chuck of the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to
take a hexagonal shanked bit?

You *don't* want a cranked hand drill for that, you want a brace.
Screwdriver bits for same can be found at most any marine supplier such
as Jamestown Distributors. Wouldn't surprise me if Vermont American
and/or Irwin still makes them, should find things made by them at most
any hardware store which should be able to order. No real need though,
you can chuck most any shape in a brace.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:l3yUf.17$ah3.0@trnddc06...
Tim W wrote:
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool
for removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is
a screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill
thing). Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no
source. Were these items once manufactured? Are they still available?
Posi also? in the uk? with the old square section tapered shank for
locking into the chuck of the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to
take a hexagonal shanked bit?

You *don't* want a cranked hand drill for that, you want a brace.
Screwdriver bits for same can be found at most any marine supplier such
as Jamestown Distributors. Wouldn't surprise me if Vermont American
and/or Irwin still makes them, should find things made by them at most
any hardware store which should be able to order. No real need though,
you can chuck most any shape in a brace.


This is also pretty good.
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=141-581

Seems I saw an adapter for hex to brace somewhere, but can't turn it.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:l3yUf.17$ah3.0@trnddc06...
You *don't* want a cranked hand drill for that, you want a brace.
Screwdriver bits for same can be found at most any marine supplier such
as Jamestown Distributors. Wouldn't surprise me if Vermont American
and/or Irwin still makes them, should find things made by them at most
any hardware store which should be able to order. No real need though,
you can chuck most any shape in a brace.


Sorry to piggyback, but it appears that this will do at a reasonable price.
http://www.garrettwade.com/shopping/...oductID=106391

Garrett Wade reasonable? I suppose.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:l3yUf.17$ah3.0@trnddc06...
Tim W wrote:
a screwdriver bit in an old brace ...

You *don't* want a cranked hand drill for that, you want a brace.
Screwdriver bits for same can be found at most any marine supplier such
as Jamestown Distributors. Wouldn't surprise me if Vermont American
and/or Irwin still makes them, should find things made by them at most
any hardware store which should be able to order. No real need though,
you can chuck most any shape in a brace.

Ah!... I didn't realise that. thanks

Tim W

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:9mvUf.66$Fl.51@fed1read09...

Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in
the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck
of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w



Hello, here is your catagory for eBay, in England:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/
Collectables Tools & Hardware Tools Carpentry/ Woodworking

There, you can see your catagory links on your left, and you can select
"UK
only" in a drop down.

Braces are usually two jawed (98% of them), and the bits have a tapered
square head. Just search through all the pages until you find screwdriver
bits
and a brace you want, the best ever made are Yankee Bell system by North
Bros., and later the same by Stanley, as long as it is a Yankee. The
model
Nos. are 2101 and the better 2100, 10" swing (5" depth) size is most
common.
As I see it, you have braces available there, and drill bits.

The two jawed chuck will also accept shanks that do not have the tapered
square head, as long as it is set in deep enough, so you could cut the
handles
off a couple of old screwdrivers, not skinny ones. For drill bits you
will need
a bit sharpening file if you buy them used. Only that file is properly
designed
for the job, made by Nicholson and available at Lee Valley, or needle
files
and small sharpening stones.

Here is an adapter you can get from the US,
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,180&p=42337
It will take 1/4" hex bits that are common, adapted to the brace chuck.

http://axminster.co.uk has a brace and the best bits that are new, but
those
prices are beyond, I wouldn't do it.

If you can get someting like Craftsman "screw outs", they could probably
work in a brace as well:

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...ertical=TOOL&p
id=00952154000
I don't know if Craftsman is sold over there, check axminster for them.

Good luck,

Excellent, many thanks. I didn't make it clear I already have the brace. I
hadn't thought of cutting the tip off a screwdriver. That is what I will do,
except I will use a cheapy new one instead of a worn out old one.

Tim W

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
...the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace ...


Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it? Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

Right. Why not use a chain saw, or dynamite? ;-)
I want to extract the old screws without breaking them or messing the heads.

Tim W

.. a screwdriver bit in an old brace ... but a quick search reveals no source. Were these items once manufactured?

Yes -- perhaps an old tool dealer might have some.

Are they still available?

I don't know.

... with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck of the brace?

If worse comes to worse, You could take an old auger bit, cut off the
drill section, and fashion the remaining shank into a screwdriver of
the size and shape you need.

Joel Jacobson

Excellent, many thanks. I didn't make it clear I already have the brace. I
hadn't thought of cutting the tip off a screwdriver. That is what I will do,
except I will use a cheapy new one instead of a worn out old one.

Tim W



Yes, make sure you have two inches that will go into the chuck, and then the
length you need that comes out from the chuck. A full 5" total length is good.
And when mounted, that chuck must be as tight as possible without being
impossible to loosen.

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Tim W wrote:
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w

You want the screwdriver bits that have a tapered square shank,
designed to be used directly in a bit brace. I've seen them in slotted
and Phillips, but never Posidrive. Stanley, Irwin, Millers Falls are
typical manufacturers.

That said, though, I couldn't find them in any recent catalogs. They
may have been discontinued. Perhaps eBay or one of the antique tool
sellers will be your best source.

I'd stay away from the adapters that take the 1/4" hex bits. They are
OK for smaller screws, but the hex bits just aren't up to the larger
ones. Which are the ones you want the bit brace for.

John Martin

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:T_xUf.15$ah3.14@trnddc06...


I fear I must disagree with that. A power drill is no substitute for a
brace when it comes to what the OP is talking about. With a brace, it
is easier to apply force parallel to the screw to keep the bit in the
screw head; easier to tweak it out too since the rotation is as slow as
one wants.


Don't fear it - I actually gave those two considerations some thought before
I posted. Decided that the difference in force that one could apply to a
brace versus a drill motor wasn't big enough to be concerned about, and that
a decent variable speed motor will allow you to back a screw out with enough
control. I know I've certainly fought many a stubborn screw out with my
motor. In fact, it seems to me that it would be easier to maintain a well
controlled angle with a drill motor which does not require you to bear into
it while at the same time attempting to turn it.

--

-Mike-

"Tim W" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
...the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace ...


Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it?
Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent
motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

Right. Why not use a chain saw, or dynamite? ;-)
I want to extract the old screws without breaking them or messing the
heads.


You seem to believe it's not possible to do so with a drill motor. Ok.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
...the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace ...


Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it?
Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent
motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

Right. Why not use a chain saw, or dynamite? ;-)
I want to extract the old screws without breaking them or messing the
heads.


You seem to believe it's not possible to do so with a drill motor. Ok.

In fact you might be right. But I wanted to test out the brace technique.

Tim w

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:MSCUf.90$Fl.46@fed1read09...

Excellent, many thanks. I didn't make it clear I already have the brace.
I
hadn't thought of cutting the tip off a screwdriver. That is what I will
do,
except I will use a cheapy new one instead of a worn out old one.

Tim W

Yes, make sure you have two inches that will go into the chuck, and then
the
length you need that comes out from the chuck. A full 5" total length is
good.
And when mounted, that chuck must be as tight as possible without being
impossible to loosen.

Actually having experimented the chuck of my brace will hold an ordinary
hexagonal magnetic driver bit-holder perfectly fast, so there is no neeed
for a special bit and no need for cutting tips off of screwdrivers.I
shouldn't even have posted the question here without checking this first.

tim W

Lee Valley.

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck
of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w

The point is to feel what you are doing. Brace is it.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it? Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

--

-Mike-

"Tim W" wrote:

Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source.
snip

Jamestown Distributors.

If you are going to screw around with a wood boat, J/D will become a
MAJOR supplier.

Trust me.

Lew

With all due repect, one point in in favor of the brace & bit solution is
the brace is designed with a large flat knob on the end of the handle that
you can place against your chest as you rotate the bit, thus bringing your
full body weight to bear on the screw head if necessary. (I hate to admit
I'm old enough to have used one of these in my younger days). That's hard
to do with a 'motor' drill as they are designed to be pushed by your hand
which brings your wrist, elbow, and shoulder joints into play as you try to
apply pressure. As Isac Newton said, it all comes down to physics .....
(sorry, I made that up).

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
...the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace ...


Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it?
Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent
motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent.

Right. Why not use a chain saw, or dynamite? ;-)
I want to extract the old screws without breaking them or messing the
heads.


You seem to believe it's not possible to do so with a drill motor. Ok.

--

-Mike-

Matthias Muehe wrote:
Still pretty much common in good old Europe.
See e.g.
http://www.dick.biz/cgi-bin/dick.sto...01_onl inekat

Product No. 707182


This link may work better:
URL:http://www.dick.biz/cgi-bin/dick.storefront/4423ac91000ddb90274050f33609064c/Product/View/707182

And have a look here also:
URL:http://www.fine-tools.com/bohr1.htm

JES

Mike Marlow wrote:

I see lots of potential for the very screw damage that the
OP was fearful of.

As I'm sure you know, the best way to minimize that potential with
either a brace or motored drill is to use a bit that fits the screw
perfectly. Especially but not exclusively slotted screws.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" wrote in message
newsuTUf.4339$6%2.1928@trnddc08...
Mike Marlow wrote:

I see lots of potential for the very screw damage that the
OP was fearful of.

As I'm sure you know, the best way to minimize that potential with
either a brace or motored drill is to use a bit that fits the screw
perfectly. Especially but not exclusively slotted screws.


Oh yeah!

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
everything. A brace and bit is quite unstable before it can really dig
in,
which of course it can't do with a driver bit in it. With all of that
body
weight leaning into it at a further distance from the object, it becomes
more unstable than a drill motor.

Don't know that I'd agree with all of that. Certainly, if the brace and but
was not centred, then it has a good chance of being unstable. However the
biggest problem I've noticed with a drill and bit is the fact that unless
you're extremely careful, it gets up to speed really fast, throwing the bit
off what you're working on. The brace and bit on the other hand, is much
more controllable at low speed, even with power behind it.

Mike Marlow wrote:
"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).
Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available? Posi also? in the
uk? with the old square section tapered shank for locking into the chuck
of
the brace? Or can the brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim w



Why not just chuck a common bit into your drill motor and go at it? Brace
and bit might have been the appropriate tool years ago, but a decent motor
with a tech adapter in it is the modern day equivalent

brace is still better for tricky applications. it's the exact
one-to-one relationship of the turns of the brace to the turns of the
screw thing.

get a good quality holder for 1/4" hex screwdriver tips. the tips are
available in almost any size/type you'll ever find. the brace will grab
the holder just fine.

Mike Marlow wrote:


Point well taken, and in fact it was one of the factors that I considered at
the very opening of this thread. Having extracted untold numbers of screws
with my cordless or my corded drill motor though, I have to wonder just how
much value that really is. (Point of diminishing returns). I've used brace
and bit before as well, so that makes me equally reluctant to acknowledge
what that says about *my* age too, but there are ups and downs to
everything. A brace and bit is quite unstable before it can really dig in,
which of course it can't do with a driver bit in it. With all of that body
weight leaning into it at a further distance from the object, it becomes
more unstable than a drill motor. Add to that that one has to apply a
rotation to it which does nothing to help add stability - in fact as most
who have used a brace and bit know - it tends to de-stabilize the tool.
Sure, with a small amount of practice it's easily enough mastered, as
evidenced by the existence of the tool over time, but that does not negate
the natural tendency for instability. The amount of leverage provided by a
3" or 4" offset is not all that significant as well - particularly in the
case of nasty stubborn screws. I see lots of potential for the very screw
damage that the OP was fearful of.

I wasn't suggesting that the brace and bit would not work, or that perhaps
it would even be a much cooler way of doing things. Heck - it could be a
lot like using a hand plane instead of a planer. There's much to be said
for some of the cool old tools. I originally replied just to suggest a
common, every day solution to the problem. It works and it really does not
suffer the pitfalls that have been posted so far. Of course - it is not an
elegant, neander, cool way of doing things - I gotta give you that. And...
I really do believe there is a lot of value in elegant, neander and cool.

--

-Mike-


I've been trying to follow your logic on this, Mike, and I've got to
admit I'm baffled.

For small screws - say #6 through #10 - and particularly in softwoods,
your electric drill is fine. So is a plain screwdriver, a Yankee-type
ratchet screwdriver, or even a brace and bit. With the larger screws,
though - #14, #16, even #24 - a brace and screwdriver bit is the only
way to go.

I just took a look at some #24 flat head wood screws. The head is 3/4"
wide, and a 1/2" Stanley screwdriver bit fits it pretty well. The bit
is actually about 5/8" wide but beveled to 1/2" at the tip. If I had a
lot of #24 screws to drive (or remove) I'd probably grind it back
somewhat to make it fit even better. I've never seen a bit for a drill
motor that will fit a screw that size - have you? Or even one for a
#14 slot, or for a #3 Phillips.

The bit brace is far more stable than an electric drill. It is longer,
and the pad is designed to be braced by not just your hand, but also by
your chest, thigh or even forehead if necessary. An electric drill is
difficult to brace in that way. And, that extra support from your
chest, thigh or forehead also translates into extra pressure holding
the bit in the screw slot - which keeps it from camming out.

An offset of 3" or 4"? Those 6" and 8" sweep braces are pretty rare,
although they are good for driving smaller screws. Most of the braces
you'll find are larger. I've got a half dozen or so, with sweeps
ranging from 8" to 14". The 14" brace is capable of driving a #24
screw into hardwood without any great effort. I'm guessing your drill
motor would have a tough time with that, assuming that you could get a
bit to fit it.

John Martin

"John Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...

I've been trying to follow your logic on this, Mike, and I've got to
admit I'm baffled.

Hmmmmm... then it was poorly articulated. My logic seemed quite clear to
me. But then it should, shouldn't it?


For small screws - say #6 through #10 - and particularly in softwoods,
your electric drill is fine. So is a plain screwdriver, a Yankee-type
ratchet screwdriver, or even a brace and bit. With the larger screws,
though - #14, #16, even #24 - a brace and screwdriver bit is the only
way to go.

#24 I'd have to check into. Off the top of my head I do not know what that
size is. I have though used my drill motor well beyond #10, and in other
than pine. Likewise, not just wood screws, but machine screws.


I just took a look at some #24 flat head wood screws. The head is 3/4"
wide, and a 1/2" Stanley screwdriver bit fits it pretty well. The bit
is actually about 5/8" wide but beveled to 1/2" at the tip. If I had a
lot of #24 screws to drive (or remove) I'd probably grind it back
somewhat to make it fit even better. I've never seen a bit for a drill
motor that will fit a screw that size - have you? Or even one for a
#14 slot, or for a #3 Phillips.

#14 slot - can't speak to that one. #3 Phillips - I have several tips right
in my drawer. They are quite common.


The bit brace is far more stable than an electric drill. It is longer,
and the pad is designed to be braced by not just your hand, but also by
your chest, thigh or even forehead if necessary. An electric drill is
difficult to brace in that way. And, that extra support from your
chest, thigh or forehead also translates into extra pressure holding
the bit in the screw slot - which keeps it from camming out.

Several people have stated this so I have to believe there is truth to it.
I did wonder though, how many of those who spoke did so not out of
experience, but out of having heard it said. I know some of the guys do
work with these tools daily and really do have first hand experience. I'm
comfotable saying that it does not seem like the brace would be more stable
to me, but it's based on my use of a brace and first hand knowledge that a
brace can be quite an akward tool if not perfectly centered and held
perfectly square to the work. This doesn't necessarily argue your point, it
only explains why I hold mine.



An offset of 3" or 4"? Those 6" and 8" sweep braces are pretty rare,
although they are good for driving smaller screws. Most of the braces
you'll find are larger. I've got a half dozen or so, with sweeps
ranging from 8" to 14". The 14" brace is capable of driving a #24
screw into hardwood without any great effort. I'm guessing your drill
motor would have a tough time with that, assuming that you could get a
bit to fit it.


Well, it would be interesting to see. I'm not about to say that a drill
motor can drive anything that a brace can - hell, like I said, I don't even
know off the top of my head what a #24 screw looks like. I have to say that
I'd be surprised if it proved that the drill motor couldn't. But then
again, I've been surprised before.

--

-Mike-

John Martin wrote:

The 14" brace is capable of driving a #24
screw into hardwood without any great effort. I'm guessing your drill
motor would have a tough time with that, assuming that you could get a
bit to fit it.

Haven't tried #24 into hardwood, but I've used a basic corded drill with
a socket adapter to put large lag bolts into 4x4 lumber without predrilling.

I bet a low-rpm 1/2" power drill would do even better. And if you
wanted to really go nuts, try one of these:

http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/weba...38_189333_362#

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
John Martin wrote:

The 14" brace is capable of driving a #24
screw into hardwood without any great effort. I'm guessing your drill
motor would have a tough time with that, assuming that you could get a
bit to fit it.

Haven't tried #24 into hardwood, but I've used a basic corded drill with
a socket adapter to put large lag bolts into 4x4 lumber without predrilling.

I bet a low-rpm 1/2" power drill would do even better. And if you
wanted to really go nuts, try one of these:

http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/weba...38_189333_362#

Chris

What would you chuck into that drill to drive the screws? Remember,
he's talking about wood screws, not lags.

You could also use an impact wrench. Same question, though.

John Martin

Mike Marlow wrote:

#24 I'd have to check into. Off the top of my head I do not know what that
size is. I have though used my drill motor well beyond #10, and in other
than pine. Likewise, not just wood screws, but machine screws.


#14 slot - can't speak to that one. #3 Phillips - I have several tips right
in my drawer. They are quite common.


Well, it would be interesting to see. I'm not about to say that a drill
motor can drive anything that a brace can - hell, like I said, I don't even
know off the top of my head what a #24 screw looks like. I have to say that
I'd be surprised if it proved that the drill motor couldn't. But then
again, I've been surprised before.

--

-Mike-


You probably won't find any #24 screws around, nor even any #18s or
#16s. They are for really heavy jobs, like mounting bench vises.
Don't understand the part about machine screws, though. Are you using
them in tapped holes in metal? That shouldn't require much torque. Or
are you for some reason using them in wood?

You are right about the #3 Phillips bits - they do make them. I'm sure
you know the importance of fitting a screwdriver to a slotted screw,
and I've never seen a 1/4" hex bit large enough for, say, a #14 screw.
I was wrong about the #3 Phillips, though.

It sounds like the drill motor is the perfect tool for you. Horses for
courses.

John Martin

Mike Marlow wrote:

The bit brace is far more stable than an electric drill. It is
longer, and the pad is designed to be braced by not just your hand,
but also by your chest, thigh or even forehead if necessary. An
electric drill is difficult to brace in that way. And, that extra
support from your chest, thigh or forehead also translates into
extra pressure holding the bit in the screw slot - which keeps it
from camming out.

Several people have stated this so I have to believe there is truth
to it. I did wonder though, how many of those who spoke did so not
out of experience, but out of having heard it said.

In my case, it was out of experience. I owned a sizeable sailboat for a
number of years and the brace was my buddy

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"John Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...

You probably won't find any #24 screws around, nor even any #18s or
#16s. They are for really heavy jobs, like mounting bench vises.
Don't understand the part about machine screws, though. Are you using
them in tapped holes in metal? That shouldn't require much torque. Or
are you for some reason using them in wood?

No - sheet metal screws. I'm sorry, I used the wrong word and didn't catch
it when I re-read before posting.


You are right about the #3 Phillips bits - they do make them. I'm sure
you know the importance of fitting a screwdriver to a slotted screw,
and I've never seen a 1/4" hex bit large enough for, say, a #14 screw.
I was wrong about the #3 Phillips, though.

Yes indeed - I do appreciate the importance of fitting the right sized
driver to the head. So tell me - and again, this is not in the spirit of
argument, it's in the spirit of genuine question - will the bit used for a
#14 or perhaps even a #16 (the bit you would use in a brace) not chuck into
a 3/8 "or 1/2" drill motor chuck?


It sounds like the drill motor is the perfect tool for you. Horses for
courses.


Probably better said that it has served me well in what I have done. Don't
want you to take from this that I believe it's the ultimate answer. It may
always be a good tool for what I do and I may never encounter a situation
where another tool would truly be a better alternative, but all the same it
is interesting to understand the real differences and benefits of another
approach.

--

-Mike-

Tim W (in ) said:

| Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_
| tool for removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing
| operation is a screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked
| hand drill thing). Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search
| reveals no source. Were these items once manufactured? Are they
| still available? Posi also? in the uk? with the old square section
| tapered shank for locking into the chuck of the brace? Or can the
| brace be adapted to take a hexagonal shanked bit?

Tim...

I chucked up a magnetic hex bit holder in an old brace and use
inexpensive hex-shanked screwdriver bits. I use mine almost
exclusively for square drive wood screws; but would expect that this
lash-up would work well for any type of screw.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:08:43 GMT, "Tim W"
wrote:

Reading an old book on boatbuilding, the writer says the _best_ tool for
removing old corroded screws, or any tricky screwing operation is a
screwdriver bit in an old brace (brace & bit cranked hand drill thing).

There's a lot to be said for that - at least for slotted screws. I also
still use mine for drilling big holes with spade bits - I like the
controllability as it breaks through.

Sounds like just what I need, but a quick search reveals no source. Were
these items once manufactured? Are they still available?

yes, Draper still make them. Maybe Stanley / Record too.

I'd suggest getting an old one though, and certainly avoiding the
Draper. If the steel rod of the frame is too thin, then they become
springy. If you're putting a lot of force onto the end button to hold it
into a screw slot then they bounce up and down uncontrollably.

You also want an old one with a wooden handle, not moulded plastic with
a seam line across the middle.

Best of all is perhaps a "joist brace", which has a short body and a
single side handle. It's intended for use between floor joists, but it
also has less spring to it, a shorter distance between tool and rear pad
handle and just as much torque.

The older antique braces had button locking to hold the bits, which is
why old bits have a notch filed in their square tapered shank. Later and
modern ones have a two jaw tapered chuck. This will _not_ grip a
parallel sided drill bit. You also need to get a good screwdriver bit to
fit it, and although pozidrive bits do exist, they're hard to find.

You also want a brace with a good quality lockable ratchet. I'd suggest
40-50 year old Stanley kit off eBay.

Mike Marlow wrote:
"John Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...

You probably won't find any #24 screws around, nor even any #18s or
#16s. They are for really heavy jobs, like mounting bench vises.
Don't understand the part about machine screws, though. Are you using
them in tapped holes in metal? That shouldn't require much torque. Or
are you for some reason using them in wood?

No - sheet metal screws. I'm sorry, I used the wrong word and didn't catch
it when I re-read before posting.


You are right about the #3 Phillips bits - they do make them. I'm sure
you know the importance of fitting a screwdriver to a slotted screw,
and I've never seen a 1/4" hex bit large enough for, say, a #14 screw.
I was wrong about the #3 Phillips, though.

Yes indeed - I do appreciate the importance of fitting the right sized
driver to the head. So tell me - and again, this is not in the spirit of
argument, it's in the spirit of genuine question - will the bit used for a
#14 or perhaps even a #16 (the bit you would use in a brace) not chuck into
a 3/8 "or 1/2" drill motor chuck?


It sounds like the drill motor is the perfect tool for you. Horses for
courses.


Probably better said that it has served me well in what I have done. Don't
want you to take from this that I believe it's the ultimate answer. It may
always be a good tool for what I do and I may never encounter a situation
where another tool would truly be a better alternative, but all the same it
is interesting to understand the real differences and benefits of another
approach.

--

-Mike-


Mike, you've just about convinced me. Especially as I get older, I
realize that I shouldn't be taxing myself with hand tools when I can
use power ones.

Chris suggested I look at a Milwaukee Super Hole Shooter. I think he
might have been kidding somewhat, as it seems a tad large for driving
wood screws, and I don't know where I would find screwdriver bits with
#3 Morse taper shanks. Perhaps he had in mind a taper adapter with a
drill chuck on it, but that gets a bit heavy and awkward.

What sort of drill motor and bits should I be considering?

John Martin

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:28:19 +0000, Tim W opined:

hadn't thought of cutting the tip off a screwdriver. That is what I will do,

As long as you have the metal tools out, go ahead and file or grind a
couple of flats on the end of the shank. That way you won't need a death
grip to keep it from turning in the chuck.

Regarding the notion of chucking a hex tip: You might want to use one of
the longer tips. The large brace chuck will obscure your view if it's too
close to the surface.

(I'm waiting for someone to market dedicated Robertson tips for Yankee
screwdrivers, instead of hex-adaptor + tip.)

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
wreck20051219 at spambob.net

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:14:10 -0800, John Martin opined:

That said, though, I couldn't find them in any recent catalogs

Tools for Working Wood, http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com :
6, 8, and 10 mm straight, $11.84 - $14.22
Phillips 1/2 and 3/4, $20.16

Part numbers EE-8751.506, .508, .510, .612, .634

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
wreck20051219 at spambob.net