If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

John Dill said:

If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

My worst fears confirmed _if_ this is, in fact, true.

Electronics manufacturers started doing this years ago, and will place
dates on the microfiche and computer parts lists. To the day that the
parts are no longer required by law to be stocked, they are loaded
into garbage rams and crushed. Employees are not allowed to take them
home, they do not donate them to a worthy cause, and you cannot buy
them as surplus. They are after the tax write-offs and accelerated
obsolescence of equipment in the field.

Add yet _another_ brand to the list of mismanaged companies I will not
consider buying from. One of Delta's stronger points was the
retention of parts needed for repairing older equipment.

So, B&D, what possible reason could anyone have to chose your brands
over, say, some no-name Chinese import? I assume the other holdings,
such as Dewalt, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss, Oldham and FLEX will also
follow suit? Talk about the BORG...

Idiot modern era MBA's.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message

So, B&D, what possible reason could anyone have to chose your brands
over, say, some no-name Chinese import?

Hell ... no need to chose, they all come from the same factory any way.

I assume the other holdings,
such as Dewalt, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss, Oldham and FLEX will also
follow suit? Talk about the BORG...

Idiot modern era MBA's.

Yep, still chuckling over the glowing reports earlier this week on how
dedicated to "value" B & D is ... my ass!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

Not to worry. I am sure the aftermarket producers will be in line to
provide parts as they do for Ryobi and others. At 3 to 4 times the
origninal OEM price.

RonB

"Greg G." wrote in ignorance:
snip
Electronics manufacturers started doing this years ago, and will place
dates on the microfiche and computer parts lists. To the day that the
parts are no longer required by law to be stocked, they are loaded
into garbage rams and crushed. Employees are not allowed to take them
home, they do not donate them to a worthy cause, and you cannot buy
them as surplus. They are after the tax write-offs and accelerated
obsolescence of equipment in the field.
snip
Greg G.


Not quite.
Decades ago I worked for an electronics manufacturer and
we surplused off some obsolete product inventory to the bottom
feeders. They did not take adequate handling measures and
introduced Electro-Static Damage to the parts (ESD does not
always cause immediate failure and often results in infant mortality).
The customers they sold the damaged parts to looked to us, as the
manufacturer, to provide warrantee replacement/refund. Of course
we wouldn't do this and explained why. The end result was that
our reputation got tarnished. Ergo everything was crushed from
then on. The tax write off was incidental. The accelerated
obsolescence statement is pure bull**** as we informed all our
customers (who had purchased any parts over the past 5 years)
of the impending End-Of-Life for the parts and gave them 1 year to
order parts for their lifetime repair needs. This is now pretty much
standard procedure for EOL'ing a part in the electronics industry.

There are also no laws which I am aware of which require stocking
of electronic parts. Military suppliers excepted.

Art

Hell ... no need to chose, they all come from the same factory any way.

Ain't that the truth, I'm beginning to think every tool or part out there is
made by the same China Manufacture and only the name stamped on it is
changed.

Damn doesn't Delta and B&D own Porter Cable? Damn most of my hand power
tools are Porter Cable. Who owns Bosch, Milwaukee, and Dewalt, these days?

Rich
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

I find this all rather stupid thinking. I mean how much has the basic
stationary WWing machines changed over the years? Almost nil. I'm
guessing they are having a hard time selling new machines. But, what
they don't realize is that selling parts to keep the older machines
working can be a cash cow by keeping those who own such equipment
loyal to the brand. Dummies.

That kind of thinking is okay when selling dispoable B&D *tools*...if
you can call them tools. Most people throw them away after they stop
working anyways. Cheaper to buy a new one (if you're stupid to buy
another crappy tool) than get it repaired. But this isn't so with the
type of machines that Delta manufactures and sells. We're talking
about machines that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars...not
some stupid sander that looks like a mouse.

One of the things I'm noticing about Craftsman is that they're finally
realizing after serveral decades of producing crappy tools is that
people want to buy and are willing to pay for quality tools. Their new
machines aren't top notch, but they're getting better than before.

Layne

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:22:45 -0500, John Dill
wrote:

If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

"John Dill" wrote in message
...
If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

Actually it might be a good idea of those on the REC wrote to B&D and
expressed their feelings about the policy - bitching here does little
good...

BB

Wood Butcher said:

"Greg G." wrote in ignorance:
snip
Electronics manufacturers started doing this years ago, and will place
dates on the microfiche and computer parts lists. To the day that the
parts are no longer required by law to be stocked, they are loaded
into garbage rams and crushed. Employees are not allowed to take them
home, they do not donate them to a worthy cause, and you cannot buy
them as surplus. They are after the tax write-offs and accelerated
obsolescence of equipment in the field.
snip
Greg G.


Not quite.

Yes, quite.

Decades ago I worked for an electronics manufacturer and
we surplused off some obsolete product inventory to the bottom
feeders. They did not take adequate handling measures and
introduced Electro-Static Damage to the parts (ESD does not
always cause immediate failure and often results in infant mortality).
The customers they sold the damaged parts to looked to us, as the
manufacturer, to provide warrantee replacement/refund. Of course
we wouldn't do this and explained why. The end result was that
our reputation got tarnished. Ergo everything was crushed from
then on. The tax write off was incidental. The accelerated
obsolescence statement is pure bull**** as we informed all our
customers (who had purchased any parts over the past 5 years)
of the impending End-Of-Life for the parts and gave them 1 year to
order parts for their lifetime repair needs. This is now pretty much
standard procedure for EOL'ing a part in the electronics industry.

Mil contract Tektronix oscilloscope repair - This Decade:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/ScopeHell02.jpg

We're talking a different paradigm here. This isn't Tektronix and a
contract on military oscilloscopes, or Fairchild supplying 74F293s to
a military or commercial manufacturer.

I'm talking consumer electronics - consumer equipment manufacturers.
They determine the EOL date when the model is introduced - this keeps
inventory at a minimum and support and obsolescence at a fixed point.

Bull****? Hardly - consumer stuff is designed for specific life span.
You can often acquire a replacement part from the OEM, but not always.
Most brands use generic IC's, except for the masked-rom micros, but
not always. JVC, for instance, is fond of customizing LSIs, and then
discontinuing them before the sets are _actually_ EOL. They determine
the EOL date, not the unit's age, condition, or customer's desire.

ESD stands for Electro Static Discharge...
Damage is what you get afterwards... g

And I seriously doubt that ESD semiconductor moleholes were the reason
behind crushing 200,000 resistors, a truckload of 25XP22 CRTs, and
hundreds of various cabinet and mechanical parts.

There are also no laws which I am aware of which require stocking
of electronic parts. Military suppliers excepted.

Again - _Consumer_ equipment manufacturers used to be required to
stock replacement parts for a specific number of years - seven, I
believe. No one seems to be enforcing these things anymore, however.
Do they even enforce this anymore for other home appliances like
washers, dryers, and refrigerators? Consumer Products like Unisaws?

I personally had hoped to use my Unisaw longer than 7 years, or any
other arbitrary date limit determined by another.



Greg G.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:22:47 GMT, "BB" wrote:


"John Dill" wrote in message
...
If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

Actually it might be a good idea of those on the REC wrote to B&D and
expressed their feelings about the policy - bitching here does little
good...

BB


Posting here is not entirely a waste of time. It may alert people to
a problem to be handled.

Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. It’s not Delta’s choice to make…in California.

Calif has some wicked-cool consumer protection laws. Manfs are required to maintain warranty repair facilities in the vicinity of where the product is sold, a toll-free 800 number must be provided with the item, if something needs warranty repair, the warranty is frozen in place until the product is repaired (as of Jan ’05 consumers must be notified in writing of this) and after repair the warranty resumes where it left off.

Any manf that thinks they will dump repair issues on the consumer needs to think again. Calif law makes all retailers of electrical/electronic products a warranty drop-of station, and makes the retailer liable for the warranty repairs. There are laws that allow retailers to collect damages from the manf, but it is all transparent to the consumer. Basically, if Delta won’t step up to the plate, any local Delta retailer can be hauled into small claims court, then the retailer can withhold payment on goods they receive from Delta.

Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and return it at no charge to me. Anything that uses electricity, weights more than 70-lbs, is awkward to carry, or is ‘installed’ is required to be repaired in at the home or pick up and deliver is to be arranged and paid for by the manf. AT 300+ lbs, it’s definitely Delta’s problem…or at least a local Delta retailer’s problem.

Oh, and if Delta doesn’t complete the repairs within 30-days, they are required to buy back the product.

joe2 writes:


Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and
return it at no charge to me. Anything that uses electricity, weights
more than 70-lbs, is awkward to carry, or is ‘installed’ is required to
be repaired in at the home or pick up and deliver is to be arranged and
paid for by the manf. AT 300+ lbs, it’s definitely Delta’s problem…or
at least a local Delta retailer’s problem.

Does this apply to retailers that don't have a business nexus in
California and simply ship things in?

It is a wonder that anyone does business in California these days with all
the extra rules and regulations. Those of us not in California are
probably subsidizing these laws as the manufacturers/retailers probably
don't charge more than any other state.

I have no idea what Delta's repair policies normally. Will they send
someone out to repair a Unisaw, no matter what state?

Brian Elfert

Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?

"joe2" wrote in message
...

John Dill Wrote:
If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you
need
now, if it isn't already too late... John



Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. It's not
Delta's choice to make.in California.

Calif has some wicked-cool consumer protection laws. Manfs are
required to maintain warranty repair facilities in the vicinity of
where the product is sold, a toll-free 800 number must be provided with
the item, if something needs warranty repair, the warranty is frozen in
place until the product is repaired (as of Jan '05 consumers must be
notified in writing of this) and after repair the warranty resumes
where it left off.

Any manf that thinks they will dump repair issues on the consumer needs
to think again. Calif law makes all retailers of electrical/electronic
products a warranty drop-of station, and makes the retailer liable for
the warranty repairs. There are laws that allow retailers to collect
damages from the manf, but it is all transparent to the consumer.
Basically, if Delta won't step up to the plate, any local Delta
retailer can be hauled into small claims court, then the retailer can
withhold payment on goods they receive from Delta.

Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and
return it at no charge to me. Anything that uses electricity, weights
more than 70-lbs, is awkward to carry, or is 'installed' is required to
be repaired in at the home or pick up and deliver is to be arranged and
paid for by the manf. AT 300+ lbs, it's definitely Delta's problem.or
at least a local Delta retailer's problem.

Oh, and if Delta doesn't complete the repairs within 30-days, they are
required to buy back the product.


--
joe2

Definitely a different paradigm.
I was talking about electronics *component* mfgrs.
Sorry I didn't make that clear.
After spending so many years in the component business I guess
I kind of had my blinders on re the consumer guys. I agree
with you there.

Art

"Greg G." wrote in message

We're talking a different paradigm here. This isn't Tektronix and a
contract on military oscilloscopes, or Fairchild supplying 74F293s to
a military or commercial manufacturer.

I'm talking consumer electronics - consumer equipment manufacturers.
They determine the EOL date when the model is introduced - this keeps
inventory at a minimum and support and obsolescence at a fixed point.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?

Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... G

Barry

Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
opportunities for retailers just across the border.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:22:45 -0500, John Dill
wrote:

If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

I have to wonder what B&D is thinking. Do they honestly believe that
a tool with the kind of price tag a Unisaw or DJ-20 has shouldn't have
repair parts available for a MUCH longer period of time than 6 years?
Parts availability is one reason I bought a DJ-20! I want that
jointer to be my lifetime purchase.

Woodworking is going to be prohibitively expensive as a hobby if a
major tool has to be replaced everytime it breaks after 6 years for
lack of a part. And maybe too expensive for a small professional shop
too.

A cordless drill? A belt sander? A router? Well, maybe replacement
is better than repair. But maybe not. It depends on the part. For
example, I've got a big PC plunge router (model 7539) that lost it's
cord. I've had it for a long time. I'd have hated to have had to
toss it just because of a simple part like a cord. Fortunately a
repair cord was available.

I think that the tool manufacturers should be very careful about this.
Unlike the sited example of consumer electronics, models don't change
all that fast and some of the tools sold to tradesmen and hobbyists
alike are very expensive and worthy of repair. There's also the
matter of brand loyalty. While I may not buy a PC example in every
category, my present experience makes them the starting point when I'm
looking for a new tool. In one category, I've got multiples (routers)
And even if I choose a different brand, I'm buying "top shelf" stuff.
DeWalt, Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita, etc, etc.

Why buy the "best" if repair isn't available? Surely they make more
profit on a PC router than a B&D router! Wouldn't they want to
protect that?

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:02:49 GMT, George Max
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?

Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... G

Barry

Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
opportunities for retailers just across the border.


Interesting thought. California's laws and regulations are rapidly
making it too expensive to do business in or with California. I'm
surprised that my company still has a presence in California given the cost
of living (I've hired people from one of our divisions in California who
were looking to get out because they were tired of living like college
students with roomates and in apartments because they couldn't afford
housing) as well as the cost of complying with all of the regulations in
California, especially when we are so concerned about overhead costs.

However, I wonder if those laws and regulations apply to goods imported
from Mexico. Say someone were to set up a business just across the border
exporting that type of goods to Californians, would the same laws apply?
How would they be enforced since states have no authority to regulate
interstate or foreign commerce. An opportunity indeed for someone.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:21:27 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:02:49 GMT, George Max
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?

Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... G

Barry

Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
opportunities for retailers just across the border.


Interesting thought. California's laws and regulations are rapidly
making it too expensive to do business in or with California.

However, I wonder if those laws and regulations apply to goods imported
from Mexico. Say someone were to set up a business just across the border
exporting that type of goods to Californians, would the same laws apply?
How would they be enforced since states have no authority to regulate
interstate or foreign commerce. An opportunity indeed for someone.


I hadn't thought of Mexico, but that's even better. What I was
thinking of was Arizona, Nevada and Oregon. Assuming of course, that
their laws were less restrictive than California's.

Wood Butcher said:

Definitely a different paradigm.
I was talking about electronics *component* mfgrs.
Sorry I didn't make that clear.
After spending so many years in the component business I guess
I kind of had my blinders on re the consumer guys. I agree
with you there.

Art

That's OK, Art - I figured as much. My point was simply that Unisaws
and DJ-20s now seem to be looked upon as Consumer Products - with all
the evil that it entails. And I didn't just spend a wad on a Unisaw
so that it could become obsolete in 7 years - or 20 for that matter.

That's one reason I got away from electronics in general. :-\


"Greg G." wrote in message

We're talking a different paradigm here. This isn't Tektronix and a
contract on military oscilloscopes, or Fairchild supplying 74F293s to
a military or commercial manufacturer.

I'm talking consumer electronics - consumer equipment manufacturers.
They determine the EOL date when the model is introduced - this keeps
inventory at a minimum and support and obsolescence at a fixed point.



Greg G.

No kidding about the cost of living here. I am a fourth generation
Californian with a Bachelors degree from UC Davis and I can't buy a
house within 200 miles of where I grew up. This is getting ridiculous.
Dan


Mark & Juanita wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:02:49 GMT, George Max
wrote:


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" wrote:


Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?

Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... G

Barry

Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
opportunities for retailers just across the border.



Interesting thought. California's laws and regulations are rapidly
making it too expensive to do business in or with California. I'm
surprised that my company still has a presence in California given the cost
of living (I've hired people from one of our divisions in California who
were looking to get out because they were tired of living like college
students with roomates and in apartments because they couldn't afford
housing) as well as the cost of complying with all of the regulations in
California, especially when we are so concerned about overhead costs.

However, I wonder if those laws and regulations apply to goods imported
from Mexico. Say someone were to set up a business just across the border
exporting that type of goods to Californians, would the same laws apply?
How would they be enforced since states have no authority to regulate
interstate or foreign commerce. An opportunity indeed for someone.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Greg G." wrote:

....
... My point was simply that Unisaws
and DJ-20s now seem to be looked upon as Consumer Products - with all
the evil that it entails. And I didn't just spend a wad on a Unisaw
so that it could become obsolete in 7 years - or 20 for that matter.
....

And you still don't know that any of this and the previous rants have
any truth to them.

Unisaws are at the edge of consumer products--and it's been the
explosion of hobby woodworking and the incessant drive of the large
numbers of those folks for cheapest initial cost that has created that
situation.

It seems to me not too long ago there were complaints that Delta wanted
some "exorbitant" price for a part right here in r.w. You can't have it
both ways--it costs money--a _lot_ of money to maintain inventory and/or
tooling to produce parts for every tool ever made for a long time when
many of them have very little demand. If there were still sufficient
folks out there interested in anything except the WalMart price for Saks
Fifth Avenue merchandise the situation wouldn't be _quite_ so difficult
for a manufacturer. I don't think there's much choice for somebody like
Delta to change given the current business climate. If they don't they
probably won't survive and then there really won't be any spare parts.

Of course, the rampant cloning of Delta machinery by 3rd world importers
and all the support they've gotten in the market place is a major factor
as well.

joe2 wrote:

Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and



Yeah, good luck with that one. Let me know how it turns out...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:54:21 +0000, joe2
wrote:




Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. It’s not
Delta’s choice to make…in California.

It was my understanding That

this law applies ONLY to Manufacturers Based in California or who have
Factory stores in California... a Manufacturer based in another State,
or Counrty has no legal obligation under the law...

I do not live in the Rebublic of Kalifornia...and I honestly am glad I
do not.... That said...its cold outside so maybe I'll rethink
everything

Bob G.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:22:45 -0500, John Dill
wrote:

If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John


I've been gone, noticed this created a fairly long thread.

I would like to know the source that supports the statement that B & D
is going to stop servicing industrial machinery six years from the
date of discontinuance of the model. Or is that not what the OP
meant?

Frank

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 15:37:45 -0500, Bob G.
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:54:21 +0000, joe2
wrote:




Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. It’s not
Delta’s choice to make…in California.

It was my understanding That

this law applies ONLY to Manufacturers Based in California or who have
Factory stores in California... a Manufacturer based in another State,
or Counrty has no legal obligation under the law...

I do not live in the Rebublic of Kalifornia...and I honestly am glad I
do not.... That said...its cold outside so maybe I'll rethink
everything


Then come to a place like Arizona, Florida, or Texas -- we need people to
dilute the Californians moving here.



Bob G.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

In article . net,
CW wrote:
Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?
...snipped...

I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several
years now...


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
years, at least for the better equipment.

John Dill wrote:
If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
now, if it isn't already too late... John

Mike Berger writes:

An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
years, at least for the better equipment.

I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old
Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same
as a modern Unisaw.

Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since
that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?

Brian Elfert

Brian Elfert wrote:

Mike Berger writes:

An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
years, at least for the better equipment.

I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old
Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same
as a modern Unisaw.

Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since
that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?

Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the
phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it
would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced
(machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's
what they typically did. Once really old castings are out of stock, I
assume it would either take a continuing demand to cause them to
occasionally have another production run.

Frank B may know more specifics...

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:22:38 -0600, Duane Bozarth wrote:
Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the
phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it
would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced
(machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's
what they typically did.

So, time in the metalshop to keep the woodshop working properly. Oh,
darn.

Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
In article . net,
CW wrote:
Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?
...snipped...

I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several
years now...


Many finishes are listed as "Not For Sale In California." IIRC, CA has
the tightest VOC laws in the country, to the point of ridulousness in
some cases. The finish manufacturers that make material that would run
up againt the regulations simply label it as above. It can drive mail
order retailers nuts, but is a good move for most of us in the other 49
states.

Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you
have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these
machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.

If the phasing out of spare parts news is correct (and I have no reason
to doubt it), it will be a repeat of what has happened to the
metalworking side of Rockwell/Delta.

As someone else has already pointed out, if you can't repair it then
you buy just enough quality to last for the time you use the tool...in
other words you start shopping for price only on disposable tools. If
you look at what other products B&D sell, they are cost engineered to
the penny. It would not surprise me if ten years from now we look back
and remember how Delta how USED to be a brand to buy and how much
better the HuFlungDung tools from China are compared to the future
Delta offerings.

TMT

On 28 Nov 2005 14:43:30 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you
have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these
machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.

Well, my Rockwell tools _are_ 40 years old, after all...to be expected,
isn't it? I mean, sense of perspective and all - can you buy a new
flathead engine from Ford these days?

I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money
with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.

If you as a tool company want my business, you need to support the
product LONG after the purchase.

Otherwise I will shop based on price...and there will always be someone
cheaper than you.

As for Ford, I drive a 31 year old Ford pickup and I intend to be
driving it for years to come. If the support for this pickup would
suddenly not be available because of Ford's shortsightedness, then my
next vehicle will not be a Ford.

Brand loyalty does not come for free...it is earned....a point that
company management often forgets.

TMT

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:22:38 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Brian Elfert wrote:

Mike Berger writes:

An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
years, at least for the better equipment.

I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old
Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same
as a modern Unisaw.

Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since
that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?

Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the
phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it
would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced
(machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's
what they typically did. Once really old castings are out of stock, I
assume it would either take a continuing demand to cause them to
occasionally have another production run.

Frank B may know more specifics...


With regard to castings, many times foundries will pressure companies
to remove their patterns if they are not giving orders on a regular
and consistent basis. They do this by either raising the price on the
casting or more directly by telling you to get your patterns out or
they will destroy them.

If the demand has fallen to the extent that the foundry will no longer
house the pattern, the company will generally do what they call a
"lifetime supply" order which is a statistical calculation that takes
into account the falling demand and the past historical use. I'm not
certain what the variables are, but it is not always perfect and,
certainly you can run out before all the machines wear out.

Delta is probably the industry leader when it comes to servicing old
machines. I say that because I had my regular production interfered
with every month to produce service requirements for machines that had
not been in regular production for decades..

It is not B & D that worries me with regard to service parts but the
trend to far eastern suppliers. They typically will not service
obsolete machines forcing the selling company to change their service
part philosophy just because they can't get the parts at any
reasonable cost.

Still waiting for the source and confirmation on the B & D six year
cuttoff on obsolete industrial machinery service support. I don't
believe it.

Frank

On 28 Nov 2005 16:02:35 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money
with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.

Why do you top-post? That really ****s up the flow of the conversation,
you know.

Anyway. These were bought 40 years ago; at least two "old-timer" cycles
through the company. They don't owe me a damn thing.

If you as a tool company want my business, you need to support the
product LONG after the purchase.

(shrug) good luck finding one that does that.

Otherwise I will shop based on price...and there will always be someone
cheaper than you.

Your choice. you get what you pay for, after all.

As for Ford, I drive a 31 year old Ford pickup and I intend to be
driving it for years to come. If the support for this pickup would
suddenly not be available because of Ford's shortsightedness, then my
next vehicle will not be a Ford.

When's the last time you checked? Bet you 20 bucks that something
mission-critical is marked "NLA" in the parts books.

Dave,

Explain what you mean by "top posting".

I replied to your post and from my viewpoint, everything looks okay.

In regards to support after the sale, I have been happy with the
results...but I suspect this will change with more and more companies
taking the easy way out....their loss in the future.

In regards to Ford, I have gotten any part I needed. As I said, if that
changes then it is Ford's loss.

TMT

On 11/28/2005 7:57 PM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:
On 28 Nov 2005 16:02:35 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money
with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.


Why do you top-post? That really ****s up the flow of the conversation,
you know.


He's not top posting, he's not quoting.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

People who incessantly complain about top-posting deserve the
irritation they feel as a result of the top-posting.

"Balderstone's Postulate"

;-P

In article , Dave Hinz
wrote:

Why do you top-post? That really ****s up the flow of the conversation,
you know.

On 28 Nov 2005 23:00:53 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On 28 Nov 2005 14:43:30 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you
have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these
machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.

Well, my Rockwell tools _are_ 40 years old, after all...to be expected,
isn't it? I mean, sense of perspective and all - can you buy a new
flathead engine from Ford these days?

Maybe not from Ford, but for more popular versions of various things (in
my case, tractor parts), there are OEM-spec producers who produce various
parts to original spec (at least the good ones do). That, and old parts
from machine being parted out can keep old stuff going for a long time.



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If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

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