Too much sanding?
 

I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even
thinking of trying 400!) on a ROS to sand surface areas to an almost
glassy smoothness and I feel that I get a better final finish because
of it. At least I THINK I do! So far I've only used clear gloss
polyurethane and it's almost like a piano finish. I haven't been doing
it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?

FoggyTown

"foggytown" wrote in message
I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even

I usually sand up to 400 grit too. Never had any problems at least none that
I can see on some projects that are well over ten years old.

it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?

I think I remember reading that if you don't sand carefully at the higher
grits, you stand the chance of burnishing or burning your wood. I'd also
hazard a guess that staining after sanding with a higher grit might give a
slightly different result than that obtained with a lower grit. Anyone?

There is a limit to how smooth you can get, due to the wood structure, pore
size for example. If you sand further than that, you don't get additional
smoothness for your effort. Different kinds of wood have different
porosities. An additional factor is the kind of finish. Poly can be
smoothed more than the underlying wood because it builds up. But there is
no advantage to sanding the wood beyond its limit. If you use a finish like
tung oil, which penetrates, the wood limit is the limit.

Steve

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"foggytown" wrote in message
I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even

I usually sand up to 400 grit too. Never had any problems at least none
that
I can see on some projects that are well over ten years old.

it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?

I think I remember reading that if you don't sand carefully at the higher
grits, you stand the chance of burnishing or burning your wood. I'd also
hazard a guess that staining after sanding with a higher grit might give a
slightly different result than that obtained with a lower grit. Anyone?

"Steve Peterson" wrote in message
There is a limit to how smooth you can get, due to the wood structure,
pore
size for example. If you sand further than that, you don't get additional
smoothness for your effort. Different kinds of wood have different
porosities. An additional factor is the kind of finish. Poly can be
smoothed more than the underlying wood because it builds up. But there is
no advantage to sanding the wood beyond its limit. If you use a finish
like
tung oil, which penetrates, the wood limit is the limit.

Thanks for that information. Do you know of any online reference for
different species of wood that one could refer to when deciding the proper
grit for final sanding and finishing?

"foggytown" wrote in message
ps.com...
I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even
thinking of trying 400!) on a ROS to sand surface areas to an almost
glassy smoothness and I feel that I get a better final finish because
of it. At least I THINK I do! So far I've only used clear gloss
polyurethane and it's almost like a piano finish. I haven't been doing
it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?


Well the varnish that you are putting on the surface is what you will be
feeling. I never go beyond 180 when using a varnish. If you are simply
going to add an oil for the finish where you will actually be touching the
wood with your hands a higher grit paper will result in a smoother feel. It
is extremely easy to have a glass smooth finish with 180 grit and 2 to 4
coats of a wipe on gel varnish.

foggytown says...

I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even
thinking of trying 400!) on a ROS to sand surface areas to an almost
glassy smoothness and I feel that I get a better final finish because
of it. At least I THINK I do! So far I've only used clear gloss
polyurethane and it's almost like a piano finish. I haven't been doing
it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?

FoggyTown

I stop at 150, usually worn out 150. No matter how much you sand the
wood, you will still need to sand the finish coats. That is where the
action is as far as I'm concerned.

I have seen a web page, but I don't remember where. If you want a
reference, check http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070302.asp. I almost
always sand to 220, then use 0000 steel wool, apply tung oil with steel wool
between coats. Sometimes, a final coat of wax. Customers like the finish.

Steve

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Steve Peterson" wrote in message
There is a limit to how smooth you can get, due to the wood structure,
pore
size for example. If you sand further than that, you don't get
additional
smoothness for your effort. Different kinds of wood have different
porosities. An additional factor is the kind of finish. Poly can be
smoothed more than the underlying wood because it builds up. But there
is
no advantage to sanding the wood beyond its limit. If you use a finish
like
tung oil, which penetrates, the wood limit is the limit.

Thanks for that information. Do you know of any online reference for
different species of wood that one could refer to when deciding the proper
grit for final sanding and finishing?

Hax Planx wrote:
foggytown says...


I stop at 150, usually worn out 150. No matter how much you sand the
wood, you will still need to sand the finish coats. That is where the
action is as far as I'm concerned.

Oh I understand about sanding the coats of finish - usually I use fine
steel wool between coats but that's more to cut down any dust nibs.
I'm just wondering if stains, varnishes, etc. have a better marriage to
the surface if the bare surface is 400 grit smooth as opposed to 220
grit smooth.

FoggyTown

FWIW . . .

A lot depends on the wood, 'buildability' of the finish, and what YOU are
trying to achieve.

Stains, in my engineering opinion, are most effective on 'raw' wood. {AND
water soluble DYES are the most even}A quick hit with 80 to 100 grit to
remove the 'whiskers' and even everything out, then apply. At this point, if
you need a 'quicker' glass-smooth surface, apply a pore-filler. Then another
stain application. This is what I did on the Maple top of a kitchen piece.
This way the pores weren't exaggerated by the stain, or by 'dimplies' in the
final finish.

The finish in this case was about 4 coats of water-borne clear Poly. A hard,
tough, and relatively fast recoating film. The individual coats were
'scuffed sanded' with increasingly finer grits - 220, 320, 400, 600. It was
then waxed & buffed.

The same general approach is used on boat trim. Depending on the wood and
the function, I may start with 60 grit. For broad, flat surfaces maybe 120
is where I stop. End grain, especially if shaped with a router, may get 220.
{This tends to inhibit the increased absorption, and evens out the
staining}. Then the finish schedule. For exterior it's about 6 coats of a UV
inhibiting Varnish.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard boatshop


"foggytown" wrote ...
Hax Planx wrote:
foggytown says...
I stop at 150, usually worn out 150. No matter how much you sand the
wood, you will still need to sand the finish coats. That is where the
action is as far as I'm concerned.

Oh I understand about sanding the coats of finish - usually I use fine
steel wool between coats but that's more to cut down any dust nibs.
I'm just wondering if stains, varnishes, etc. have a better marriage to
the surface if the bare surface is 400 grit smooth as opposed to 220
grit smooth.

"foggytown" wrote in message
oups.com...


Hax Planx wrote:
foggytown says...


I stop at 150, usually worn out 150. No matter how much you sand the
wood, you will still need to sand the finish coats. That is where the
action is as far as I'm concerned.

Oh I understand about sanding the coats of finish - usually I use fine
steel wool between coats but that's more to cut down any dust nibs.
I'm just wondering if stains, varnishes, etc. have a better marriage to
the surface if the bare surface is 400 grit smooth as opposed to 220
grit smooth.


If you power sand with extremely fine grits you can, as an earlier poster
said, burnish and case-harden the surface. This cuts the penetration of oil
and rejects particles of pigment in oil stains, forcing you to use glazes or
pigmented varnishes. You do need some "tooth" to the wood, too.

In flat work we generally have the luxury of sanding with the grain for our
fine paper, so we don't show crossgrain scratches like our turning brethren.
320 is enough for almost anything out there. The first coat of finish will
be almost fully absorbed anyway, so why sand the surface with a higher grit
than we'll be using on the finish?

On 24 Jul 2005 13:03:29 -0700, "foggytown" wrote:

I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even
thinking of trying 400!) on a ROS to sand surface areas to an almost
glassy smoothness and I feel that I get a better final finish because
of it. At least I THINK I do! So far I've only used clear gloss
polyurethane and it's almost like a piano finish. I haven't been doing
it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?

FoggyTown

If I understand the posting earlier this year from Darrel.. he usually doesn't
sand pat 180 of it's going to be stained..
that makes sense to me, since stain usually raises the grain and is than sanded
lightly, right?

I've noticed a lot of bad things about over sanding on turned things, like not
getting a uniform color, but I don't think that has as much effect as flat
work..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On 24 Jul 2005 13:03:29 -0700, "foggytown" wrote:

I see it recommended all the time - sand with low grits to shape then
220 grit for finish. But why stop at 220? I have used 320 (even
thinking of trying 400!) on a ROS to sand surface areas to an almost
glassy smoothness and I feel that I get a better final finish because
of it. At least I THINK I do! So far I've only used clear gloss
polyurethane and it's almost like a piano finish. I haven't been doing
it long enough to know if there will be problems over the years. Maybe
it's too smooth? Anyone have any ideas?

My guess would be it depends on your finish. If I use a stain, I only
go up to 220- much higher than that and it doesn't seem to penetrate
correctly with some woods. With stuff on the lathe, I sand to 1500 or
2000 grit to get that shiny burnished look, and then just use a
clearcoat to slow moisture exchange. Sanding until it's glossy really
makes the grain pop even better than oils, IMO.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:10:56 -0700, mac davis
wrote:

I've noticed a lot of bad things about over sanding on turned things, like not
getting a uniform color, but I don't think that has as much effect as flat
work..

Mac-

Are you staining, or is it a result of the grain orientation? I've
got a couple of cherry pieces that show two apparently different
colors because of the way the light reflects. The end grain is
apparently much darker than the face grain, but they are only clear
coated, and the apparent color changes if you turn the piece a little.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:24:04 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:10:56 -0700, mac davis
wrote:

I've noticed a lot of bad things about over sanding on turned things, like not
getting a uniform color, but I don't think that has as much effect as flat
work..

Mac-

Are you staining, or is it a result of the grain orientation? I've
got a couple of cherry pieces that show two apparently different
colors because of the way the light reflects. The end grain is
apparently much darker than the face grain, but they are only clear
coated, and the apparent color changes if you turn the piece a little.

It seems to effect both end and face grain, but more face... I think that
turning cuts fibers and sanding "breaks" them.. and a broken (or, at least an
over sanded) fiber seems to absorb more color from the stain..




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:06:31 -0700, mac davis
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:24:04 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:10:56 -0700, mac davis
wrote:

I've noticed a lot of bad things about over sanding on turned things, like not
getting a uniform color, but I don't think that has as much effect as flat
work..

Mac-

Are you staining, or is it a result of the grain orientation? I've
got a couple of cherry pieces that show two apparently different
colors because of the way the light reflects. The end grain is
apparently much darker than the face grain, but they are only clear
coated, and the apparent color changes if you turn the piece a little.

It seems to effect both end and face grain, but more face... I think that
turning cuts fibers and sanding "breaks" them.. and a broken (or, at least an
over sanded) fiber seems to absorb more color from the stain..

The face grain is absorbing more color? Interesting- maybe I'll have
to monkey around with some stain just to see that! It kinda of makes
sense in an odd way, though. Have you had the same experience
burnishing pieces, or is it just with the sandpaper?

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:35:00 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

Are you staining, or is it a result of the grain orientation? I've
got a couple of cherry pieces that show two apparently different
colors because of the way the light reflects. The end grain is
apparently much darker than the face grain, but they are only clear
coated, and the apparent color changes if you turn the piece a little.

It seems to effect both end and face grain, but more face... I think that
turning cuts fibers and sanding "breaks" them.. and a broken (or, at least an
over sanded) fiber seems to absorb more color from the stain..

The face grain is absorbing more color? Interesting- maybe I'll have
to monkey around with some stain just to see that! It kinda of makes
sense in an odd way, though. Have you had the same experience
burnishing pieces, or is it just with the sandpaper?

hmm... haven't burnished in a while, but I seem to remember that it sort of
glazed over everything and stained pretty evenly, IF you could get the
burnished/burned wood to absorb stain..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:24:32 -0700, mac davis
wrote:


The face grain is absorbing more color? Interesting- maybe I'll have
to monkey around with some stain just to see that! It kinda of makes
sense in an odd way, though. Have you had the same experience
burnishing pieces, or is it just with the sandpaper?

hmm... haven't burnished in a while, but I seem to remember that it sort of
glazed over everything and stained pretty evenly, IF you could get the
burnished/burned wood to absorb stain..

Like I said, I don't stain much, but I've gotten some really nice
results by total immersion and soaking in Tung oil (Danish oil is next
on the list) for several hours or days. Probably would work with
stain as well, if you're so inclined.


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...

Like I said, I don't stain much, but I've gotten some really nice
results by total immersion and soaking in Tung oil (Danish oil is next
on the list) for several hours or days. Probably would work with
stain as well, if you're so inclined.


No such luck on stain. Remember that oil stains are pieces of pigment
suspended in the vehicle. Just stir the can after it's been sitting for a
while. If it were a homogenous mixture like dye rather than a suspension,
might be more effective.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 04:24:28 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:24:32 -0700, mac davis
wrote:


The face grain is absorbing more color? Interesting- maybe I'll have
to monkey around with some stain just to see that! It kinda of makes
sense in an odd way, though. Have you had the same experience
burnishing pieces, or is it just with the sandpaper?

hmm... haven't burnished in a while, but I seem to remember that it sort of
glazed over everything and stained pretty evenly, IF you could get the
burnished/burned wood to absorb stain..

Like I said, I don't stain much, but I've gotten some really nice
results by total immersion and soaking in Tung oil (Danish oil is next
on the list) for several hours or days. Probably would work with
stain as well, if you're so inclined.

yeah.. I've gotten more into danish and mineral oil since my wife got the
buffing system.. seems much more even than stains and better penetration..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:44:08 -0700, mac davis
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 04:24:28 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:24:32 -0700, mac davis
wrote:


The face grain is absorbing more color? Interesting- maybe I'll have
to monkey around with some stain just to see that! It kinda of makes
sense in an odd way, though. Have you had the same experience
burnishing pieces, or is it just with the sandpaper?

hmm... haven't burnished in a while, but I seem to remember that it sort of
glazed over everything and stained pretty evenly, IF you could get the
burnished/burned wood to absorb stain..

Like I said, I don't stain much, but I've gotten some really nice
results by total immersion and soaking in Tung oil (Danish oil is next
on the list) for several hours or days. Probably would work with
stain as well, if you're so inclined.

yeah.. I've gotten more into danish and mineral oil since my wife got the
buffing system.. seems much more even than stains and better penetration..

Definately- I gave up on stains quite some time ago, after ruining
several otherwise very nice projects. The wife still uses them for
her scroll sawing, but I shy away from them these days.