So, I was talking with Bob Plummer last weekend in the shop and we was
lookin" at some drawer boxes that I had cobbled up for these fancy
kneehole desks that I've been working on.

Bob asked me, "What kinda saw do you like for cuttin' out the pins and
tails on yer drawer boxes?"

I said, " Well, when I do a bunch, I like to use the Leigh Jig, but
when I do a few, I have this nice Pax Dovetail saw that I like a lot."

Bob reflects on this a bit and then says, "Have you ever considered
cuttin' yer dovetails out with a hacksaw?''

Hmmn, Bob's a friend and I wouldn't say anything to intentionally
insult him, except in the regard of his incomprehensible love of the
Chicago Cubs, for which I take him to task most heartily, and at every
conceivable opportunity - but the idea of using a hacksaw on fine
joinery?

"I never have given that much thought, Bob."

Now, let me say that when Bob starts to thinkin' he starts to workin'
his jaws a lot - and Bob chaws - you might say "chews" where you come
from but the point is that he keeps a wad of Redman workin' in his
cheeks, pretty much twenty four hours a day. When he gets that
thoughtful look in his eye I'm always afraid that he'll let go and
spit - although I've never seen him spit in twenty five years of
knowin' him and actually suspect that he simply absorbs the chaw into
his system - which worries me a little bit, as he is a decent friend.

Anyways, the tension of waiting for the unreasonably expected
expectoration onto the shop floor, or the tools, if he is tired enough
to not be entirely accurate, adds a bit of suspense to our shop time
together.

After chawin' for a good bit Bob continues, "Ya gotta figger, Tommy,
that the point (Bob never made a pun in his life, so I won't include
one here, as it wouldn't seem natchural) of those fancy saws is to
have a buncha fine teeth bitin' into the wood - and what has finer
teeth than a hacksaw?"

I was sorta wishin' that I was a chawin' man at this point, so as to
have time enough to reflect on my answer - but I settled for a belch,
as Bobby and I had been suckin' down a bit of Yuengling Lager - and it
seemed like a reasonable comma to the dialogue.

"Well, Bobby, let's give her a try."

Seriously, that was the best that I could come up with.

I pencilled out a dovetail and struck it with the layout knife, put
the stick into the bench vise, and had a go at it with the hacksaw.

Now, I've got a few hacksaws and I was careful in my selection. I
opted for the tubular framed Stanley, as I thought that it would take
the sort of tension that I intended to apply to the blade.

I was less fortunate in the avaialability of blades and had to settle
for a 32 tpi of nondescript origin, as it was the only fresh blade
around.

Bobby camped out right over my left shoulder. I've always hated that.

"Bobby, would you give me a little room to breathe here, I'm tryin'
something I've never done and yer makin' me nervous."

"Hell, I was just tryin' ta see if you was gonna start forwards or
backwards."

"Bobby, I don't think there's any right or wrong way to start a
dovetail with a hacksaw, since, so far as I know, it's never been
tried."

"Well, come on, Tommy. One ways gotta be better than the other, and
it's something to consider, technique wise and such."

I was trying not to concentrate too much on the thought that I was
about to violate a piece of haf assed decent white maple with a
plumber's tool.

"Alright, Bobby, we're a goin' in."

I ultimately decided on the pull stroke, as it seemed more natural to
me, and it seemed to work just fine. In fact, the push stroke and the
following sequence of pushes and pulls worked to such a satisfactory
degree as to make me lay out a few more and cut them.

"Ya see, Tommy, it cuts clean as a whistle."

Well, it did at that!

I'd not be the one to say that I will give up my fancy saws, as I
enjoy the heft of them and what they do - but Bobby Plummer had taught
me that a man doesn't need a sixty dollar saw to cut a decent line.

So, the moral of story is: if'n yer ever stuck out in the woods, with
nuthin' but a hacksaw - you can pursue yer fine wooddorking hobby
without fear of poorly results.

That damned hacksaw works just fine.





Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:13:39 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

So, I was talking with Bob Plummer last weekend..........That damned hacksaw works just fine.


HEATHEN!

Greetings and Salutations...

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:37:34 -0700, s wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:13:39 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

So, I was talking with Bob Plummer last weekend..........That damned hacksaw works just fine.


HEATHEN!
Perhaps, but, I have been using a hacksaw for that
sort of thing for years...perhaps decades. It is not quite
the cleanest cut, but, works very well for making that
fine line.
Regards
Dave Mundt

Dave Mundt wrote:
Greetings and Salutations...

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:37:34 -0700, s wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:13:39 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

So, I was talking with Bob Plummer last weekend..........That damned hacksaw works just fine.


HEATHEN!
Perhaps, but, I have been using a hacksaw for that
sort of thing for years...perhaps decades. It is not quite
the cleanest cut, but, works very well for making that
fine line.
Regards
Dave Mundt

ah yes... I forgot the smiley on my last post. I've used a hacksaw for
that sort of thing too.

Tom Watson writes:

Bob reflects on this a bit and then says, "Have you ever considered
cuttin' yer dovetails out with a hacksaw?''

Makes sense. Some fancy miter saws are like hack saws.
It the tension is high enough and the blade stiff, why not?

There are always odd ideas. Remember the one in FWW about a guy who
cut dovetails in a single cut with a frame saw for shipping crates?

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

On 22 Jul 2005 02:47:46 GMT, Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Some fancy miter saws are like hack saws.

Hacksaws have wave set, mitre saws have almost no set. Although a
hacksaw barely works on wood anyway (no chip clearance space), if you
did use one you'd have an unstable cut direction.

As there's no shortage of blade materials to choose from, hacksaws would
be right down the bottom. I've cut "rough" dovetails with a bowsaw using
thin bandsaw blade.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 22 Jul 2005 02:47:46 GMT, Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Some fancy miter saws are like hack saws.

Hacksaws have wave set,

not all hacksaws have wave set.


mitre saws have almost no set. Although a
hacksaw barely works on wood anyway (no chip clearance space)

on very hard woods like ebony and rosewood they work a charm.


, if you did use one you'd have an unstable cut direction.

choose the blade carefully. there ae a lot of tooth patterns available
in hacksaw blades. granted, most of them are too fine to be really
effective for general woodworking, and some of them would be screaming
disaster in any woodworking context, but not all.




As there's no shortage of blade materials to choose from, hacksaws would
be right down the bottom.

why? most are high carbon steel. it makes a dandy saw blade. many are
either HSS or HSS laminated to a carbon steel back. while HSS isn't
really necessary for a woodworking handsaw, it performs fine.

On 23 Jul 2005 17:02:59 -0700, "bridger" wrote:

choose the blade carefully. there ae a lot of tooth patterns available
in hacksaw blades.

Where do you find them? One of my pet gripes about hacksaws has long
been the limited range of teeth. I can't get a rake angle that isn't set
up for metal. Now on ebony or bog oak this would be OK, but even on
rosewood I have saws with better tooth shapes. I also can't find
anything coarser than 12tpi.

My real gripe about hacksaws though is junior hacksaws. You can get
excellent little frames for these, but no blades other than the cheapest
of medium carbon steel.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 23 Jul 2005 17:02:59 -0700, "bridger" wrote:

choose the blade carefully. there are a lot of tooth patterns available
in hacksaw blades.

Where do you find them? One of my pet gripes about hacksaws has long
been the limited range of teeth. I can't get a rake angle that isn't set
up for metal. Now on ebony or bog oak this would be OK, but even on
rosewood I have saws with better tooth shapes. I also can't find
anything coarser than 12tpi.

I don't really know where to send you for blades. I haven't needed a
hacksaw for wood in a while. make no mistake, they *are* designed for
cutting metal. heh, except for the one I have with pruning saw teeth,
mebbe 2TPI on that one.... I have a pile of blades that I have
accumulated over the years- it's one of the things I look for when I
check out a new tool store.




My real gripe about hacksaws though is junior hacksaws. You can get
excellent little frames for these, but no blades other than the cheapest
of medium carbon steel.

I don't have one of these, but I see plumbers use what sounds like one.
the blades for them are set up for cutting plastic pipe quickly- I
suspect that they would do a passable job on wood, but any decent
woodworking saw should outperform them.

I've found that a "jeweler's" saw, fitted with a mid-range scroll saw blade,
does a really nice job also. When you get to the bottom of the
tail or pin, turn the saw & cut off the bottom of the waste. No need
for chisels except to clean up the cut! (rotate the blade 90d in the
frame if necessary for clearance on deep drawers)
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:13:39 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

So, I was talking with Bob Plummer last weekend in the shop and we was
lookin" at some drawer boxes that I had cobbled up for these fancy
kneehole desks that I've been working on.

Snip

That damned hacksaw works just fine.



Good folksy advice, and a hell of a story! Nice post, Tom.

Tom Watson wrote:
...

Bob reflects on this a bit and then says, "Have you ever considered
cuttin' yer dovetails out with a hacksaw?''

...
I ultimately decided on the pull stroke, as it seemed more natural to
me, and it seemed to work just fine. In fact, the push stroke and the
following sequence of pushes and pulls worked to such a satisfactory
degree as to make me lay out a few more and cut them.

"Ya see, Tommy, it cuts clean as a whistle."

Well, it did at that!

...

So, the moral of story is: if'n yer ever stuck out in the woods, with
nuthin' but a hacksaw - you can pursue yer fine wooddorking hobby
without fear of poorly results.

That damned hacksaw works just fine.



IIRC, the late Cecil Pierce, an American woodworker of no small
renown, used a hacksaw to cut dovetails. As I recall, he used
the thumb (the only digit remaining on his left hand) on the
front of the saw.

Since most people cut them with a one-handed saw I presume Mr
Pierce preferred the hacksaw based in some way on its own merits.

--

FF

wrote:

IIRC, the late Cecil Pierce, an American woodworker of no small
renown, used a hacksaw to cut dovetails. As I recall, he used
the thumb (the only digit remaining on his left hand) on the
front of the saw.

Since most people cut them with a one-handed saw I presume Mr
Pierce preferred the hacksaw based in some way on its own merits.

First of all, I never trust a woodworker who's all thumbs. ;-)

IIRC, in his book, Pierce also stayed outside the layout lines and
pared his dovetails back to the lines. So that would indicate that he
was not expecting a final finish from the saw.

FWIW, when I started doing dovetails I stayed outside the lines and
pared them to fit. I found that introduced more likelihood for errors
than if I simply tried to make them fit straight from the saw. Since I
changed my method and started cutting "on the waste side of the line",
most of the time my dovetails fit without any paring (or at worst, with
only a bit of cleaning up of the corners).

I've tried the hacksaw method, as well as using a cheap new Stanley
"dovetail saw", a $20 Korean dozuki, a $40 Japanese z-saw, an old Spear
backsaw re-filed rip, and the L-N dt saw. The first two were
intolerable, the third was OK, and the last three made life much easier.

And since I wooddork as a hobby, I like to choose tools that make
life easier. :-)


Chuck Vance

"Conan The Librarian" wrote

FWIW, when I started doing dovetails I stayed outside the lines and
pared them to fit. I found that introduced more likelihood for errors
than if I simply tried to make them fit straight from the saw. Since I
changed my method and started cutting "on the waste side of the line",
most of the time my dovetails fit without any paring (or at worst, with
only a bit of cleaning up of the corners).

For what it is worth, and in the context of dovetailing I've tried to
illustrate sawing to a pencil line on my web site - Dovetailing Detailed - A
close-up On Marking Sockets.

I hope this helps.

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net