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  #1   Report Post  
James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Preserving wood in Concrete

Hiya All,
Definitely not a fine woodworking question but I thought the intelligence of
the Wreck might have some suggestions.

I'm about to embark on building an adobe wall outside my house (clay bricks
basically). I intend to put in a gate and in order to hang this thing, I
will be putting prolly 3"x8" rough cut cedar or pine into the ground against
the wall ends to create the frame. I plan to set these in concrete around
24" deep. I'll then fasten the wood to the wall but can't rely on the
adobe to provide a whole lot of support (hence, sinking the frame into the
ground). I've got termites in this area and I'm worried about the wood
rotting out as well.

I will be using an asphaltum in the morter and was wondering if just dipping
the ends of the boards into this stuff would provide me the protection I
need. Not too worried about the termites as the wood will be encased in
concrete. Would this work or is there a better way?

Thanks much,
cc


  #2   Report Post  
Lew Hodgett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:


I'm about to embark on building an adobe wall outside my house (clay bricks
basically). I intend to put in a gate and in order to hang this thing, I
will be putting prolly 3"x8" rough cut cedar or pine into the ground against
the wall ends to create the frame. I plan to set these in concrete around
24" deep. I'll then fasten the wood to the wall but can't rely on the
adobe to provide a whole lot of support (hence, sinking the frame into the
ground). I've got termites in this area and I'm worried about the wood
rotting out as well.


Once upon a time the above was basic practice; however, things change.

Think you will find that pouring concrete around a wooden post that is
maybe 24" down in the ground won't solve your problem.

Suggest you consider the following;

Pour a concrete cylinder that is below the frost line and rises above
grade level at least 8" that contains about 4, 1/2"-13 standard anchor
bolts (The bottom of the bolt has a right angle bend, the other is
threaded).

A commercial form for this is known as a "Sona tube".

It is basically a paper tube that is coated so it doesn't stick to the
cured concrete.

Any decent electrical contractor who installs parking lot lighting can
give you a source.

Form a steel plate in the shape of a "U" that gets bolted to the anchor
bolts below and has a flap on each side of the post that allows thru
bolting.

You may be able to find a commercial item but if you don't, NBD.

Any machine shop with a press brake and a welder can easily make them.

What I have described is almost standard construction here in SoCal.

HTH

Lew
  #3   Report Post  
James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks Lew,
I was really hoping to prevent anything sticking up above ground other than
the wood. I may have to think about this a bit more.
Cheers,
cc

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:


I'm about to embark on building an adobe wall outside my house (clay
bricks basically). I intend to put in a gate and in order to hang this
thing, I will be putting prolly 3"x8" rough cut cedar or pine into the
ground against the wall ends to create the frame. I plan to set these
in concrete around 24" deep. I'll then fasten the wood to the wall but
can't rely on the adobe to provide a whole lot of support (hence, sinking
the frame into the ground). I've got termites in this area and I'm
worried about the wood rotting out as well.


Once upon a time the above was basic practice; however, things change.

Think you will find that pouring concrete around a wooden post that is
maybe 24" down in the ground won't solve your problem.

Suggest you consider the following;

Pour a concrete cylinder that is below the frost line and rises above
grade level at least 8" that contains about 4, 1/2"-13 standard anchor
bolts (The bottom of the bolt has a right angle bend, the other is
threaded).

A commercial form for this is known as a "Sona tube".

It is basically a paper tube that is coated so it doesn't stick to the
cured concrete.

Any decent electrical contractor who installs parking lot lighting can
give you a source.

Form a steel plate in the shape of a "U" that gets bolted to the anchor
bolts below and has a flap on each side of the post that allows thru
bolting.

You may be able to find a commercial item but if you don't, NBD.

Any machine shop with a press brake and a welder can easily make them.

What I have described is almost standard construction here in SoCal.

HTH

Lew



  #4   Report Post  
C & M
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lew is right about ow it's done now and if I were building a deck it's the
only way I'd go. For your application I wouldn't hesitate to go with the
concrete-in-a-hole method. It was used 20 yrs ago on my deck and it's still
standing tall with no signs of rot. With your application it should be no
problem at all although, like Les said, go below frost - and 30" would be my
minimum. With regard to the termites, treated lumber is termite resistant
and the ugly greenish color will weather away. If you don't want to wait
that long, it appears that Penofin (type it into a search engine) has a
product that only requires you to wait 30 days for a cureing time before
application. The stuff sounds imressive but you'll have to get it online
unless you live near one on of the very few dealers - comes from Australia.
Heck, there's bound to be another product that does the same thing and id
avalable at one of the box stores. Good luck!
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya All,
Definitely not a fine woodworking question but I thought the intelligence

of
the Wreck might have some suggestions.

I'm about to embark on building an adobe wall outside my house (clay

bricks
basically). I intend to put in a gate and in order to hang this thing, I
will be putting prolly 3"x8" rough cut cedar or pine into the ground

against
the wall ends to create the frame. I plan to set these in concrete

around
24" deep. I'll then fasten the wood to the wall but can't rely on the
adobe to provide a whole lot of support (hence, sinking the frame into the
ground). I've got termites in this area and I'm worried about the wood
rotting out as well.

I will be using an asphaltum in the morter and was wondering if just

dipping
the ends of the boards into this stuff would provide me the protection I
need. Not too worried about the termites as the wood will be encased in
concrete. Would this work or is there a better way?

Thanks much,
cc




  #5   Report Post  
Larry and Lois
 
Posts: n/a
Default

surrounding wood in concrete does not protect from termites.
either a crack might let them in, or they get in from above the concrete.
water or landscaping might push some dirt over the concrete and let termites
get to the wood!
and once dirt washes up to the wood if termites dont get to it, I've seen
many post rot out of the concrete. keep the dirt clear.dont cover it on
purpose

where I work here in Texas when a post or any wood is set in the ground and
attached to the house or touching our company will cancel the home owners
warrenty for their termite contract.

be careful!!
keep the area clear and the ground and post treated both for termite and
rot.

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya All,
Definitely not a fine woodworking question but I thought the intelligence

of
the Wreck might have some suggestions.

I'm about to embark on building an adobe wall outside my house (clay

bricks
basically). I intend to put in a gate and in order to hang this thing, I
will be putting prolly 3"x8" rough cut cedar or pine into the ground

against
the wall ends to create the frame. I plan to set these in concrete

around
24" deep. I'll then fasten the wood to the wall but can't rely on the
adobe to provide a whole lot of support (hence, sinking the frame into the
ground). I've got termites in this area and I'm worried about the wood
rotting out as well.

I will be using an asphaltum in the morter and was wondering if just

dipping
the ends of the boards into this stuff would provide me the protection I
need. Not too worried about the termites as the wood will be encased in
concrete. Would this work or is there a better way?

Thanks much,
cc






  #6   Report Post  
James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks Larry,
Yeah, the termites are pretty prolific here too (NM). I've actually decided
to mount the post to the wall above the ground. After all the trouble of
mounting, layout, etc...I just decided to heck with it and will put some
gringo blocks in the adobe and mount to them. The gate will be pretty
small so it shouldn't need much support.

On a side note, I've noticed the termites don't mess with the treated
lumber. I have a few cutoffs of regular doug fir and some treated stuff
out in the yard. Went to clean them up the other day and the termites were
all over the doug fir but didn't tough the treated stuff.

I've been reading about a new chem (actually not that new) called Termidor
that supposedly works very well against the critters. Might have to
inquire about that one of these days.
Cheers,
cc

"Larry and Lois" wrote in message
...
surrounding wood in concrete does not protect from termites.
either a crack might let them in, or they get in from above the concrete.
water or landscaping might push some dirt over the concrete and let
termites
get to the wood!
and once dirt washes up to the wood if termites dont get to it, I've seen
many post rot out of the concrete. keep the dirt clear.dont cover it on
purpose

where I work here in Texas when a post or any wood is set in the ground
and
attached to the house or touching our company will cancel the home owners
warrenty for their termite contract.

be careful!!
keep the area clear and the ground and post treated both for termite and
rot.

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya All,
Definitely not a fine woodworking question but I thought the intelligence

of
the Wreck might have some suggestions.

I'm about to embark on building an adobe wall outside my house (clay

bricks
basically). I intend to put in a gate and in order to hang this thing, I
will be putting prolly 3"x8" rough cut cedar or pine into the ground

against
the wall ends to create the frame. I plan to set these in concrete

around
24" deep. I'll then fasten the wood to the wall but can't rely on the
adobe to provide a whole lot of support (hence, sinking the frame into
the
ground). I've got termites in this area and I'm worried about the wood
rotting out as well.

I will be using an asphaltum in the morter and was wondering if just

dipping
the ends of the boards into this stuff would provide me the protection I
need. Not too worried about the termites as the wood will be encased in
concrete. Would this work or is there a better way?

Thanks much,
cc






  #7   Report Post  
CaptMike
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim...

Termidor and Premise are the two top professional termiticides on the
market today. Both work on what's called a "non-repellent" basis. I
happen to prefer Premise (by Bayer) and think it's safer to use with
kids and pets around. Termites live in a colony 20-25 feet underground
and commute to your house 24/7 to forage (get food/bring it back). A
typical colony could be 300,000 to 3,000,000. Think of a 55-gallon drum
full of squirming rice and you'd have a small colony. As they pass thru
the treated soil, they get some residue of these products on their
bodies, and termites socially preen themselves and inadvertently the
checmical gets into their systems. The excess food (cellulose) they
bring back from your house is reguritated in a food store to feed
larvae, pupae, queen & king... plus any underdeveloped termite. So
tainted food is shared with the colony. These chemicals act like
time-release drugs, and it can take 15 to 45 days to eliminate the
colony... but they usually all die.

I inspect houses, and in addition to wood, termites eat the paper on
sheetrock, yellow pages, books, cardboard, newspaper, some ceiling
tiles, homosote board, masonite, and just about anything with a
cellulose base. PT wood is untasty when new, but if you lie it on the
ground the chemical will eventually leach out and the termites will
infest the wood. And to throw a rock in the gears... Carpenter Ants do
not eat wood... but they can cause almost identical sorts of damage as
they hollow out wood to build sub-colony nests in houses.

Both are officially called WDI's (Wood Destroying Insects) in our
nationally spec'd reports. Two other WDIs are Carpenter Bees and Powder
Post Beetles. If you sink the wood into the concrete, you're not
helping the wood, and that's why the PT warranty is voided if the wood
is placed on/in the ground and not on a raised sonotube or cement
foundation.

Termidor and Premise are not available to the general public AFAIK. You
have to have a specific termite license to buy/use it here in New England.

Termite 101 is over...


James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Thanks Larry,
Yeah, the termites are pretty prolific here too (NM). I've actually decided
to mount the post to the wall above the ground. After all the trouble of
mounting, layout, etc...I just decided to heck with it and will put some
gringo blocks in the adobe and mount to them. The gate will be pretty
small so it shouldn't need much support.

On a side note, I've noticed the termites don't mess with the treated
lumber. I have a few cutoffs of regular doug fir and some treated stuff
out in the yard. Went to clean them up the other day and the termites were
all over the doug fir but didn't tough the treated stuff.

I've been reading about a new chem (actually not that new) called Termidor
that supposedly works very well against the critters. Might have to
inquire about that one of these days.
Cheers,

  #8   Report Post  
James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wow, thanks for the lesson!

You're right that they eat anything with cellulose. I first noticed their
presence when I noticed an expansion joint had been all but destroyed by
them.

I hadn't heard of Premise before. I may look into that as I do have the
pets and us to worry about! I've had the outside treated before. The guy
hits em with some form of Borax but not sure of the trade name. He says it
repells them and keeps the house safe. Hmmm, not too sure of that one.

I've had carpenter ants before. Thankfully they don't eat the wood, they
spit it out and it's pretty easy to discover them early on with all the
little piles of sawdust around!

I would think that someone that sold "Pre-treated Lumber" specifically for
termites would make a fortune.
Cheers,
cc

"CaptMike" wrote in message
...
Jim...

Termidor and Premise are the two top professional termiticides on the
market today. Both work on what's called a "non-repellent" basis. I
happen to prefer Premise (by Bayer) and think it's safer to use with kids
and pets around. Termites live in a colony 20-25 feet underground and
commute to your house 24/7 to forage (get food/bring it back). A typical
colony could be 300,000 to 3,000,000. Think of a 55-gallon drum full of
squirming rice and you'd have a small colony. As they pass thru the
treated soil, they get some residue of these products on their bodies, and
termites socially preen themselves and inadvertently the checmical gets
into their systems. The excess food (cellulose) they bring back from your
house is reguritated in a food store to feed larvae, pupae, queen &
king... plus any underdeveloped termite. So tainted food is shared with
the colony. These chemicals act like time-release drugs, and it can take
15 to 45 days to eliminate the colony... but they usually all die.

I inspect houses, and in addition to wood, termites eat the paper on
sheetrock, yellow pages, books, cardboard, newspaper, some ceiling tiles,
homosote board, masonite, and just about anything with a cellulose base.
PT wood is untasty when new, but if you lie it on the ground the chemical
will eventually leach out and the termites will infest the wood. And to
throw a rock in the gears... Carpenter Ants do not eat wood... but they
can cause almost identical sorts of damage as they hollow out wood to
build sub-colony nests in houses.

Both are officially called WDI's (Wood Destroying Insects) in our
nationally spec'd reports. Two other WDIs are Carpenter Bees and Powder
Post Beetles. If you sink the wood into the concrete, you're not helping
the wood, and that's why the PT warranty is voided if the wood is placed
on/in the ground and not on a raised sonotube or cement foundation.

Termidor and Premise are not available to the general public AFAIK. You
have to have a specific termite license to buy/use it here in New England.

Termite 101 is over...


James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Thanks Larry,
Yeah, the termites are pretty prolific here too (NM). I've actually
decided to mount the post to the wall above the ground. After all the
trouble of mounting, layout, etc...I just decided to heck with it and
will put some gringo blocks in the adobe and mount to them. The gate
will be pretty small so it shouldn't need much support.

On a side note, I've noticed the termites don't mess with the treated
lumber. I have a few cutoffs of regular doug fir and some treated stuff
out in the yard. Went to clean them up the other day and the termites
were all over the doug fir but didn't tough the treated stuff.

I've been reading about a new chem (actually not that new) called
Termidor that supposedly works very well against the critters. Might
have to inquire about that one of these days.
Cheers,



  #9   Report Post  
Larry and Lois
 
Posts: n/a
Default

yea just what he said!! great job
I dont belive I could write it up any better.to sum it up so well so
shortly.
I use Premise myself.
C'ya larry

"CaptMike" wrote in message
...
Jim...

Termidor and Premise are the two top professional termiticides on the
market today. Both work on what's called a "non-repellent" basis. I
happen to prefer Premise (by Bayer) and think it's safer to use with
kids and pets around.

snip snip
Termite 101 is over...




  #10   Report Post  
Larry and Lois
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
I've had the outside treated before. The guy
hits em with some form of Borax but not sure of the trade name. He says

it
repells them and keeps the house safe. Hmmm, not too sure of that one.

borax and any borate product works only when it stays dry. it will last a
while when it gets wet but it will leech out fast.


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