"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

"The point of these lines is clear. In the old days, craftsmen did not
cut corners. They worked carefully, and they took care with every
aspect of their work. Every part of the product was considered, and
each was designed and made to be exactly as it should be. These
craftsmen did not relax their thoughtful self-discipline even with
respect to features of their work which would ordinarily not be
visible. Although no one would notice if those features were not quite
right, the craftsmen would be bothered by their consciences. So
nothing was swept under the rug. Or, one might perhaps also say, there
was no bull****.

It does seem fitting to construe carelessly made, shoddy goods as in
some way analogues of bull****. But in what way? Is the resemblance
that bull**** itself is invariably produced in a careless or
self-indulgent manner, that it is never finely crafted, that in the
making of it there is never the meticulously attentive concern with
detail to which Longfellow alludes?"


On Bull****
Harry Frankfurt
Princeton University


http://web.archive.org/web/200402120...ticles/bs.html




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Bull****.

The notion that "in the old days" everything was made with thoughtful
consideration to detail is nothing but bull****. There were just as many
shoddy pieces of crap produced in every era of human existence as there are
today. To think that the pour souls that stood at a bench and planed doors
and furniture parts from sunup to sundown with no break, food or water, and
often not allowed to speak, "worked carefully, and... took care with every
aspect of their work" and that "nothing was swept under the rug" simply
ignores the reality of humanity, such that it is.

The pieces that have survived to tell the tale of how things were made "in
the old days" are, by definition, the best built, the best cared for, the
most fortunate specimens. Period.

To think otherwise would be like thinking that all posts to rec.woodworking
were as poorly worded and crafted as this one. Generalizations based on
incomplete data, and especially data that is ignored and/or inappropriately
analyzed, are worthless bull****. As is this post.

Michael Latcha - at home in Redford, MI


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

"The point of these lines is clear. In the old days, craftsmen did not
cut corners. They worked carefully, and they took care with every
aspect of their work. Every part of the product was considered, and
each was designed and made to be exactly as it should be. These
craftsmen did not relax their thoughtful self-discipline even with
respect to features of their work which would ordinarily not be
visible. Although no one would notice if those features were not quite
right, the craftsmen would be bothered by their consciences. So
nothing was swept under the rug. Or, one might perhaps also say, there
was no bull****.

It does seem fitting to construe carelessly made, shoddy goods as in
some way analogues of bull****. But in what way? Is the resemblance
that bull**** itself is invariably produced in a careless or
self-indulgent manner, that it is never finely crafted, that in the
making of it there is never the meticulously attentive concern with
detail to which Longfellow alludes?"


On Bull****
Harry Frankfurt
Princeton University


http://web.archive.org/web/200402120...ticles/bs.html




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:30:50 GMT, "Michael Latcha"
wrote:

The pieces that have survived to tell the tale of how things were made "in
the old days" are, by definition, the best built, the best cared for, the
most fortunate specimens. Period.

Agreed on the whole, since it makes sense that the better made do
survive. But there remains the argument of how much of today's
produce will remain a century or so from now, as chainsaws are used to
cut twisted 2x 4s [a misnomer] and banged together with too few nails.
Plywood floors, full of large unfilled knots, are laid in less than an
hour on minimal spec beams, as they begin immediately to separate and
squeek when walked on, and paint is thinned to transparency.

I lived in cheap row housing as a child. The buildings are being
cleaned of old soot, and still stand as good as new.

"Michael Latcha" wrote in message

The pieces that have survived to tell the tale of how things were
made "in the old days" are, by definition, the best built ...
snip

LOL ... now go back and note carefully the _subject_ of the first line, of
the _quoted_ treatsie on Longfellows little verse.

To think otherwise would be like thinking that all posts to
rec.woodworking
were as poorly worded and crafted as this one. Generalizations based on
incomplete data, and especially data that is ignored and/or
inappropriately
analyzed, are worthless bull****. As is this post.

Michael Latcha - at home in Redford, MI

I am thinking that perhaps Michael Latcha, while at home in Redford, MI,
missed entirely the point of both Longfellow's verse, and Tom's posting of
that little bit of quoted reflection on BS?

(BTW ... nice troll, Tom. You definitely have a genius for On Topic trolls,
and illuminating the failings of an educational system, with just few
strokes on the keyboard. g)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/05

Tom Watson wrote:
"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

"The point of these lines is clear. In the old days, craftsmen did not
cut corners. They worked carefully, and they took care with every
aspect of their work. Every part of the product was considered, and
each was designed and made to be exactly as it should be. These
craftsmen did not relax their thoughtful self-discipline even with
respect to features of their work which would ordinarily not be
visible. Although no one would notice if those features were not quite
right, the craftsmen would be bothered by their consciences. So
nothing was swept under the rug. Or, one might perhaps also say, there
was no bull****.

It does seem fitting to construe carelessly made, shoddy goods as in
some way analogues of bull****. But in what way? Is the resemblance
that bull**** itself is invariably produced in a careless or
self-indulgent manner, that it is never finely crafted, that in the
making of it there is never the meticulously attentive concern with
detail to which Longfellow alludes?"


On Bull****
Harry Frankfurt
Princeton University


http://web.archive.org/web/200402120...ticles/bs.html




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

My only addition would be to add "self-righteous" after "careless or
self-indulgent." The desire to be correct all the time makes some
workers cover up flaws, lying to themselves and the observer.


Bob

"Tom Watson" quoted in message
...

"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

Thanks, Tom.

I think I'll carve a reminder to myself - to hang on the shop wall:

Build, with greatest care,
Each minute and unseen part,
For the gods are everywhere!

HWW needed to look around a bit more - there have always been people who
work as he describes. In our time and in this company I'd point proudly to
people like Steve Knight, Mike Hyde, and Tom Plamann as proof.

--
Morris

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" quoted in message
...

"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

Thanks, Tom.

I think I'll carve a reminder to myself - to hang on the shop wall:

Build, with greatest care,
Each minute and unseen part,
For the gods are everywhere!

HWW needed to look around a bit more - there have always been people who
work as he describes. In our time and in this company I'd point proudly to
people like Steve Knight, Mike Hyde, and Tom Plamann as proof.

--
Morris

Hey I resent those remarks ,I use gnomes and pixies to do the really hard
stuff, by the way not that it matters but the name is spelled hide, as in
hide and seek...mjh

"mike hide" wrote in message
...

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" quoted in message
...

"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

Thanks, Tom.

I think I'll carve a reminder to myself - to hang on the shop wall:

Build, with greatest care,
Each minute and unseen part,
For the gods are everywhere!

HWW needed to look around a bit more - there have always been people who
work as he describes. In our time and in this company I'd point proudly
to
people like Steve Knight, Mike Hyde, and Tom Plamann as proof.

--
Morris

Hey I resent those remarks ,I use gnomes and pixies to do the really hard
stuff, by the way not that it matters but the name is spelled hide, as in
hide and seek...mjh

Oops! Sorry. 'Fraid I paid too much attention to the work and not enough to
the guy who did it (the work /is/ more attention-grabbing :-)

--
Morris

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

"The point of these lines is clear. In the old days, craftsmen did not
cut corners. They worked carefully, and they took care with every
aspect of their work. Every part of the product was considered, and
each was designed and made to be exactly as it should be. These
craftsmen did not relax their thoughtful self-discipline even with
respect to features of their work which would ordinarily not be
visible. Although no one would notice if those features were not quite
right, the craftsmen would be bothered by their consciences. So
nothing was swept under the rug. Or, one might perhaps also say, there
was no bull****.

It does seem fitting to construe carelessly made, shoddy goods as in
some way analogues of bull****. But in what way? Is the resemblance
that bull**** itself is invariably produced in a careless or
self-indulgent manner, that it is never finely crafted, that in the
making of it there is never the meticulously attentive concern with
detail to which Longfellow alludes?"


On Bull****
Harry Frankfurt
Princeton University



http://web.archive.org/web/200402120...misc/articles/
bs.html




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

I think a good indication of this is St Pauls cathedral . Christopher Wren
the builder of St Pauls had argued for some time in the early 16 hundreds
that the dome could be built as a freestanding structure without the use of
columns al la US capitol building and many more . This concept was argued
against by just about every architect of note at the time ,

Wren succomed to the argument and the columns were added . Only after WW2
when the building was being inspected for war damage was it realized that
the columns were 2" or so shy of the base of the dome ....mjh

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Michael Latcha" wrote in message
snip

(BTW ... nice troll, Tom. You definitely have a genius for On Topic
trolls,
and illuminating the failings of an educational system, with just few
strokes on the keyboard. g)



Ditto !
(despite the fact "dittos" are considered poor etiquette in NGs)
Tom B

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:30:50 GMT, "Michael Latcha"
wrote:

Bull****.

snippomatic

To think otherwise would be like thinking that all posts to rec.woodworking
were as poorly worded and crafted as this one. Generalizations based on
incomplete data, and especially data that is ignored and/or inappropriately
analyzed, are worthless bull****. As is this post.

Michael Latcha


Are you that guy who used to be on 'Taxi'?

I thought you were dead.


BTW-The post was entirely composed of quoted text.

You may have heard of HW Longfellow.

The other guy holds down a job teaching Philosophy, at Princeton.*

(* Princeton - where Einstein used to hang - until he realized it was
in New Jersey.)



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

"mike hide" wrote in message
...

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" quoted in message
...

"In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere."

Thanks, Tom.

I think I'll carve a reminder to myself - to hang on the shop wall:

Build, with greatest care,
Each minute and unseen part,
For the gods are everywhere!

HWW needed to look around a bit more - there have always been people
who
work as he describes. In our time and in this company I'd point
proudly
to
people like Steve Knight, Mike Hyde, and Tom Plamann as proof.

--
Morris

Hey I resent those remarks ,I use gnomes and pixies to do the really
hard
stuff, by the way not that it matters but the name is spelled hide, as
in
hide and seek...mjh

Oops! Sorry. 'Fraid I paid too much attention to the work and not enough
to
the guy who did it (the work /is/ more attention-grabbing :-)

--
Morris

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:18:33 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

(BTW ... nice troll, Tom. You definitely have a genius for On Topic trolls,
and illuminating the failings of an educational system, with just few
strokes on the keyboard. g)

Hell, Swing - I don't think of them so much as 'trolls' as much as the
kind of interrogatory mischief that the old Gadfly, Socrates busied
hisself with in the Agora, about 2500 years ago.

'Trolls', properly executed, seek to draw the general populace into an
unending and ultimately meaningless series of posts in response to a
bull**** question.

My post was an invitation to think about 'Bull****' - and how it
relates to WoodDorking.

And 'Bull****' is a serious thing.

A Bull****ter lets himself get sloppy in his stock prep and joinery,
and seeks to make the whole thing look good on the outside.

A Mechanic understands that stock prep is the foundation of joinery;
that joinery is the foundation of the piece, and that what shows, even
if it is bright and shiny today, will not be that way for long if they
have Bull****ted their way through the underpinnings.

You build houses and you know that this extends to that area, too.

I don't care if you are slab on grade or working up a full foundation
- if the slab or top course is left a little bit out of bubble, you
are going to chase that error all the way through the building.

Sure, there are ways of compensating, and every carpenter has to know
them but - there is no framing adjustment that can take the place of a
good foundation.

CharlieB, who is a good and thoughtful man, put up a picture on ABPW
of a corner joint. I took issue with it because the back side of the
intersecting members did not meet up right.

There would have been no net negative result in how the piece looked
from the outside. It would have looked fine. It would not have
suffered in any structural way from how the joint was executed. My
point was that the lack of attention to this detail reflected a lack
of attention to detail that is destructive to the kind of habit of
mind that I feel that you must have in order to do really good work.

Longfellow's paean to the workers of old is not without merit.

The argument that was made that many antiques show rough surfaces in
those areas that can not easily be seen, is a good point. I've taken
apart and repaired some pretty nice pieces that had some rough work
that was hidden from view.

I've also been to the conservator's shops at Winterthur and The
Philadelphia Museum Of Art, where you can really get up close and
personal with the innards of the hallmark instances of great
furniture.

The underpinnings of these pieces are immaculate.

There is no cheating.

There is no Bull****.


I'm not saying that they brought the back surfaces to the same
condition as the wrought surfaces but, when a corner met, it was met
with equal sections. There were no 'off the saw' surfaces left in the
hidden areas. They had all seen a visit from the plane or scraper.
When you turned a drawer upside down, the bottom was not left rough,
nor was the bevel uneven.


These really magnificent, 'No Bull****' pieces showed a habit of mind
that would not allow even a hidden surface to pass by without
attention.


The point, to me, about 'Bull****', is that we must not let 'Bull****'
enter our making of fine objects. 'Bull****' is a habit of mind, or a
relaxing of standards, that informs our work, and ultimately makes the
work less than what it could be.

I truly believe that good habits of mind are critical to the
production of good work. We must execute the fundamentals well and
with a serious purpose.

You may recall the days when a carpenter was interviewed for hiring
and was asked to show his toolbox. If his tools were neatly arrayed
and looked well cared for and sharp - it was an indication to the
prospective employer that this man had the proper 'habit of mind' to
do good work - that he was not a Bull****ter.

Now we have schmucks who drag their tools around in drywall buckets.

What sort of 'habits of mind' does this indicate.


OK - my rant is pretty much done - but I would leave you with the
final thought that 'habits of mind' direct our endeavors, and that we
must cultivate our habits in this regard - if we are to have any
chance at the occasional transcending greatness.


And that ain't no bull****.




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Excellent post . . . very Krenovian. In fact, I think it addresses the
question that floated around the newsgroup several weeks ago regarding
Krenov. Many here seemed hung up on the particular esthetic that Krenov
builds and missed the key point about Krenov that Tom so eloquently
presents . . . "no bull****!"

Thanks for the post.
Rick
http://www.thunderworksinc.com

Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:18:33 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


(BTW ... nice troll, Tom. You definitely have a genius for On Topic trolls,
and illuminating the failings of an educational system, with just few
strokes on the keyboard. g)


Hell, Swing - I don't think of them so much as 'trolls' as much as the
kind of interrogatory mischief that the old Gadfly, Socrates busied
hisself with in the Agora, about 2500 years ago.

'Trolls', properly executed, seek to draw the general populace into an
unending and ultimately meaningless series of posts in response to a
bull**** question.

My post was an invitation to think about 'Bull****' - and how it
relates to WoodDorking.

And 'Bull****' is a serious thing.

A Bull****ter lets himself get sloppy in his stock prep and joinery,
and seeks to make the whole thing look good on the outside.

A Mechanic understands that stock prep is the foundation of joinery;
that joinery is the foundation of the piece, and that what shows, even
if it is bright and shiny today, will not be that way for long if they
have Bull****ted their way through the underpinnings.

You build houses and you know that this extends to that area, too.

I don't care if you are slab on grade or working up a full foundation
- if the slab or top course is left a little bit out of bubble, you
are going to chase that error all the way through the building.

Sure, there are ways of compensating, and every carpenter has to know
them but - there is no framing adjustment that can take the place of a
good foundation.

CharlieB, who is a good and thoughtful man, put up a picture on ABPW
of a corner joint. I took issue with it because the back side of the
intersecting members did not meet up right.

There would have been no net negative result in how the piece looked
from the outside. It would have looked fine. It would not have
suffered in any structural way from how the joint was executed. My
point was that the lack of attention to this detail reflected a lack
of attention to detail that is destructive to the kind of habit of
mind that I feel that you must have in order to do really good work.

Longfellow's paean to the workers of old is not without merit.

The argument that was made that many antiques show rough surfaces in
those areas that can not easily be seen, is a good point. I've taken
apart and repaired some pretty nice pieces that had some rough work
that was hidden from view.

I've also been to the conservator's shops at Winterthur and The
Philadelphia Museum Of Art, where you can really get up close and
personal with the innards of the hallmark instances of great
furniture.

The underpinnings of these pieces are immaculate.

There is no cheating.

There is no Bull****.


I'm not saying that they brought the back surfaces to the same
condition as the wrought surfaces but, when a corner met, it was met
with equal sections. There were no 'off the saw' surfaces left in the
hidden areas. They had all seen a visit from the plane or scraper.
When you turned a drawer upside down, the bottom was not left rough,
nor was the bevel uneven.


These really magnificent, 'No Bull****' pieces showed a habit of mind
that would not allow even a hidden surface to pass by without
attention.


The point, to me, about 'Bull****', is that we must not let 'Bull****'
enter our making of fine objects. 'Bull****' is a habit of mind, or a
relaxing of standards, that informs our work, and ultimately makes the
work less than what it could be.

I truly believe that good habits of mind are critical to the
production of good work. We must execute the fundamentals well and
with a serious purpose.

You may recall the days when a carpenter was interviewed for hiring
and was asked to show his toolbox. If his tools were neatly arrayed
and looked well cared for and sharp - it was an indication to the
prospective employer that this man had the proper 'habit of mind' to
do good work - that he was not a Bull****ter.

Now we have schmucks who drag their tools around in drywall buckets.

What sort of 'habits of mind' does this indicate.


OK - my rant is pretty much done - but I would leave you with the
final thought that 'habits of mind' direct our endeavors, and that we
must cultivate our habits in this regard - if we are to have any
chance at the occasional transcending greatness.


And that ain't no bull****.




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Subject

Takes me back to when I was about 10-12 years old.

Every time something didn't go exactly planned, I would make a "****
comment".

Chicken, bull, hog, it made no difference, I used them all at will.

One day my mother, a red headed fire eater of German extraction, said,

"Lewis Arthur, you seem to be quite an expert on ****, especially
chicken ****, so I have a question for you".

(You know you are in trouble when your mother addresses you using your
middle name).

"I'll try", I answered.

"Well chicken **** consists of white stuff and dark stuff". she said.

"The dark stuff is chicken **** but do you know what the white stuff
is", she asked.

I didn't answer, not knowing what to say.

Finally she said, "Well the white stuff is also chicken ****".

Score another one for mom.

She turned 100 this spring, and is still a step ahead of me.

Lew

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:23:30 GMT, the opaque Lew Hodgett
spake:

I didn't answer, not knowing what to say.

Finally she said, "Well the white stuff is also chicken ****".

Score another one for mom.

She turned 100 this spring, and is still a step ahead of me.

Give her a big hug, some KUDOS! and an Atta Girl! from me the next
time you see her. I come from a line of long livers, too. My great
grandmother on my Dad's side would have made it past 100 if she hadn't
fallen and broken her hip 2 weeks before her centennial birthday. She
died on the operating table. The rest of my grandparents lasted well
into their 90s.

Now, to confirm that "long livers" comment, mine was very large and
long before I sobered up. After a week of detox it was back to normal
in all respects with all hepatic counts normal.


----------------------------------------------
Never attempt to traverse a chasm in two leaps
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== =========

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:18:33 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

(BTW ... nice troll, Tom. You definitely have a genius for On Topic
trolls,
and illuminating the failings of an educational system, with just few
strokes on the keyboard. g)

Hell, Swing - I don't think of them so much as 'trolls' as much as the
kind of interrogatory mischief that the old Gadfly, Socrates busied
hisself with in the Agora, about 2500 years ago.

reluctant snip, for brevity, of much reason and logic

A very trenchant post, Tom ...as always you are a pleasure to read.

I'm thinking Usenet could use another term for that type of "interrogatory
mischief".

Anyone?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/05

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:39:52 -0400, "mike hide"
wrote:


I think a good indication of this is St Pauls cathedral . Christopher Wren
the builder of St Pauls had argued for some time in the early 16 hundreds
that the dome could be built as a freestanding structure without the use of
columns al la US capitol building and many more . This concept was argued
against by just about every architect of note at the time ,

Wren succomed to the argument and the columns were added . Only after WW2
when the building was being inspected for war damage was it realized that
the columns were 2" or so shy of the base of the dome ....mjh

And he's probably still laughing his ass off... Good one, thanks.

To Tom's point, I think HWW's observation that bull**** involved
"deliberate misrepresentation" is the key to shoddy workmanship - it
is an attempt to provide something that dupes the purchaser/observer
into believing it is a work of craftsmanship. Those who know
craftsmanship can see through the bull****.

TWS