Cabinetmaker's symbols?
 

I would like to start a discussion on markings and symbols used in
woodworking. I am refering to things like the cabinet maker's
triangle, methods of what component is what and what side of a cabinet
is what. I find myself changing my method of marking often because I
am not convinced that the one I used last is the best.

Some of the replies to this type of discussion are "use whatever works
for you". But that creates problems when you might come up with a
symbol that can be misinterpreted. Or, like the Roman numbering
system, not the best concept to use.

To expand further on this subject...

The X is pretty standard for the area to be cut out. So that is a good
start. What about the best set of symbols for the six sides of a cube?
Should the symbol incorporate information as to what side attaches to
each edge? Is "right reading" enough to define its position and what
side attaches to each edge? What other information should it carry.
What have I forgotten?

I hope you all don't think I am being anal retentive about this. Being
able to come up with a marking without thinking should make work go
quicker. It also would keep you from second guessing yourself later in
the project (was B bottom or back). Both of these problems have
happened to me. I have refrained from coming up with my own markings
because I have been looking for an existing standard that has been well
thought out. The cabinet maker's triangle is an excellent example. It
was obviously well thought out and almost impossible to screw up. It
also can be used for an infinite number of panels. See what I mean?

There is a method of marking the 4 posts of a cabinet to understand
which post is what and its orientation. I use it all the time and it
is not ambiguous. Makes my work go quicker and with more confidence.

The only symbol I use is a "V" for marking a cut or for aligning
boards. Everything else is build-as-you-go so there wouldn't be a time
when I don't know what part is the left, right, bottom, back, etc.

Here are the few that I use:

X = cutoff or waste side of a line.

O = Show face, more importantly used as the reference face. For instance ,
if I am using a tennon jig, I always reference the front of the pannel. If
there happens to be any thickness irregularities, the will show up on the
back of the panel.

Triangle -drawn across a joint to show the order and orientation of the
components of a glue up pannel.

Right angle (like in geometry class, two lines to form a box in an interior
angle) - used to indicate the adjacent sides of a board which were jointed.
When rejointing previously milled stock, it's not always obvious what faces
were trued.

Cheers,

Steve

On Mon, 30 May 2005 13:06:44 -0400, "C & S"
wrote:

Here are the few that I use:

X = cutoff or waste side of a line.

O = Show face, more importantly used as the reference face. For instance ,
if I am using a tennon jig, I always reference the front of the pannel. If
there happens to be any thickness irregularities, the will show up on the
back of the panel.

Triangle -drawn across a joint to show the order and orientation of the
components of a glue up pannel.

.... snip

The Leigh jig manual has a couple that are useful for inside and outside
of box sides (need to look them up to remember what they are).

I use the Greek "alpha" to show the jointed (flat) sides of boards. On
wood with tearout issues, the alpha is accompanied by an arrow to show
direction of feed to prevent tearout (useful when moving to the planer).




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

In article , "C & S" wrote:
Here are the few that I use:

X = cutoff or waste side of a line.

I'm afraid of confusing myself any more than I already am. "Hmmm... does X
mark the side to keep, or the side to toss?" So I always write "waste" on the
waste side.

I mark the lines like this |- or -| to show which side of the line the kerf
belongs on.

O = Show face, more importantly used as the reference face. For instance ,
if I am using a tennon jig, I always reference the front of the pannel. If
there happens to be any thickness irregularities, the will show up on the
back of the panel.

Better IMO to mark the face *opposite* the show face, to eliminate any worries
about the markings still being visible in the finished project.

Triangle -drawn across a joint to show the order and orientation of the
components of a glue up pannel.

I number them 1, 2, 3... from left to right, on the ends of the boards.
End-for-end orientation is preserved by numbering them at one end only.
Maintaining proper order and orientation is trivial: if the numbered ends are
all at the same end of the panel, right side up, and in sequence, everything's
right, and if not, the nature and location of the problem is instantly
obvious.

And again, no worries about the markings being visible in the finished
project, because the ends will be trimmed off anyway. If for some reason, I
need to mark the face of a board, I use Post-It Notes.

Right angle (like in geometry class, two lines to form a box in an interior
angle) - used to indicate the adjacent sides of a board which were jointed.
When rejointing previously milled stock, it's not always obvious what faces
were trued.

Absolutely right. I started out marking mine the same way, but found that it's
faster and just as accurate to simply make a diagonal slash at the appropriate
corner on each end of the board.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Better IMO to mark the face *opposite* the show face, to eliminate any
worries
about the markings still being visible in the finished project.

I have considered that and you are correct. However *for me* it one less
mental reversal/negation/flip I have to do. I kno wit's not rational, but
it's easier for me to focus on the goood side.

Right angle (like in geometry class, two lines to form a box in an
interior
angle) - used to indicate the adjacent sides of a board which were
jointed.
When rejointing previously milled stock, it's not always obvious what
faces
were trued.

Absolutely right. I started out marking mine the same way, but found that
it's
faster and just as accurate to simply make a diagonal slash at the
appropriate
corner on each end of the board.

Good point. I'm going to start doing that.

-Steve

wrote

I would like to start a discussion on markings and symbols used in
woodworking. I am refering to things like the cabinet maker's
triangle, methods of what component is what and what side of a cabinet
is what. I find myself changing my method of marking often because I
am not convinced that the one I used last is the best.

On my web site - Marking Out Notes - Using Face Side and Face Edge Marks,
you'll find the traditional symbols for the datum faces.

As far as show faces are concerned, the FS marks should lie on the inside of
carcases and suchlike.

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

Very useful and exactly what I had in mind. I hope others post similar
suggestions.

On 30 May 2005 07:33:32 -0700, wrote:

I would like to start a discussion on markings and symbols used in
woodworking. I am refering to things like the cabinet maker's
triangle, methods of what component is what and what side of a cabinet
is what. I find myself changing my method of marking often because I
am not convinced that the one I used last is the best.

Some of the replies to this type of discussion are "use whatever works
for you". But that creates problems when you might come up with a
symbol that can be misinterpreted. Or, like the Roman numbering
system, not the best concept to use.

I use a lot of letters. If I'm making two tables, for instance, and
they each have four stretchers that are 22" wide, I mark all the 22"
stretchers with an "A". If two of those stretchers have tenons with
one shoulder and two of them have two shoulders, then I mark four
pieces with A1 and four pieces with A2. The other pieces get
different letters, and I just make sure that the letters have the same
orientation on each peice. That way, when I move to the next
operation, I look for the letter, make sure is it oriented correctly
(IE, the "A" is not upside down) and make my cut.

For angles, I either write the degree on it, or use the geometry
symbols (as I know them, though there may be variations) Usually, I
use a small radius on the inside of the angle with a hash mark on it.
Everything with the same angle gets the same hash mark- if there are
two different angles, angle one get one hash mark, and angle two gets
to of them.

I don't generally use an x to mark waste- usually what I do is lay
either a peice of paper (when laying curves) or a thin ruler on the
board, and draw several short diagonal lines from the edge. That way
I'm left with one smooth side to the line and one that is uneven. The
uneven end is the waste side.

To figure out which side is up (when I'm not lettering the part) I
just draw an arrow, and make sure it is pointing up when I assemble
the peice.

Ultimately, it's not really that important unless you're passing
partially constructed pieces on to another person, though. As long as
you're consistant, it shouldn't matter how you mark things up.

I've been following this thread with considerable interest. It's amazing
that we woodworkers have gotten this far in the world and never developed
any kind of a standard for this. Traditionally, none of the world's
technologies really went anywhere until some basic standards were created
for everyone to follow. I'm thinking of things like National Fine and
National Coarse thread, Inch and Metric measurement, or how about the IBM
PC. Yea, we have standard screw sizes, house framing and building standards,
etc. but we don't have piece marking standards for furniture and cabinet
making (as far as I know). Before the PC every computer had it's own
different operating system and new programs were almost non-existant,
because it wasn't worth doing it for so many different operating systems.
Now there are operating system standards from the big M (let's leave it at
that - I don't want to go there) and all of the programs are designed to
work with it. Maybe one of you who has your own website could put together
some of the best of these ideas and create such a standard for the rest of
us to follow, putting the latest version on the website with graphic
representations of each so we can all access it and begin to think the same
way. We could keep adding to it via discussions here and keep changing it
until we all like it. Who knows, we might take woodworking to a whole new
level with this.

This is just a thought that I've decided to share. I leave it for you all to
decide what to do with it.
--
Charley


"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On 30 May 2005 07:33:32 -0700, wrote:

I would like to start a discussion on markings and symbols used in
woodworking. I am refering to things like the cabinet maker's
triangle, methods of what component is what and what side of a cabinet
is what. I find myself changing my method of marking often because I
am not convinced that the one I used last is the best.

Some of the replies to this type of discussion are "use whatever works
for you". But that creates problems when you might come up with a
symbol that can be misinterpreted. Or, like the Roman numbering
system, not the best concept to use.

I use a lot of letters. If I'm making two tables, for instance, and
they each have four stretchers that are 22" wide, I mark all the 22"
stretchers with an "A". If two of those stretchers have tenons with
one shoulder and two of them have two shoulders, then I mark four
pieces with A1 and four pieces with A2. The other pieces get
different letters, and I just make sure that the letters have the same
orientation on each peice. That way, when I move to the next
operation, I look for the letter, make sure is it oriented correctly
(IE, the "A" is not upside down) and make my cut.

For angles, I either write the degree on it, or use the geometry
symbols (as I know them, though there may be variations) Usually, I
use a small radius on the inside of the angle with a hash mark on it.
Everything with the same angle gets the same hash mark- if there are
two different angles, angle one get one hash mark, and angle two gets
to of them.

I don't generally use an x to mark waste- usually what I do is lay
either a peice of paper (when laying curves) or a thin ruler on the
board, and draw several short diagonal lines from the edge. That way
I'm left with one smooth side to the line and one that is uneven. The
uneven end is the waste side.

To figure out which side is up (when I'm not lettering the part) I
just draw an arrow, and make sure it is pointing up when I assemble
the peice.

Ultimately, it's not really that important unless you're passing
partially constructed pieces on to another person, though. As long as
you're consistant, it shouldn't matter how you mark things up.

"Charley" wrote in message
...
I've been following this thread with considerable interest. It's amazing
that we woodworkers have gotten this far in the world and never developed
any kind of a standard for this.

Snip....


Y'know, the best thing about standards is that there are so many to choose
from. ;-)

-s

On 30 May 2005 07:33:32 -0700, wrote:

I would like to start a discussion on markings and symbols used in
woodworking. I am refering to things like the cabinet maker's
triangle, methods of what component is what and what side of a cabinet
is what. I find myself changing my method of marking often because I
am not convinced that the one I used last is the best.

Some of the replies to this type of discussion are "use whatever works
for you". But that creates problems when you might come up with a
symbol that can be misinterpreted. Or, like the Roman numbering
system, not the best concept to use.


I was taught to use the pyramid, which has been explained.

I was also taught to mark with an X - the X always describing the
waste side.

I was further taught to use a loop that described either the face and
the left side, or the face and the top.

After several shabby tries at replicating this mark, I have put the
result on ABPW.

You have my apologies for its primitive look - it is easier to do with
a carpenter's pencil than it is in MS Paint.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)