Fuming question
 

I'm thinking about trying to fume some white oak. The first project
will be a 42x72 dining table.

I have a 5x10, enclosed, water tight utility trailer. I think the
trailer may make a great enclosure to fume such a large item. When I'm
happy with the color, I can simply leave the doors and roof vents open
to purge the air.

Comments? Suggestions?

Barry

That should work fine - but watertight doesn't mean airtight. You may
need to tack plastic on the inside to make it air tight.

Put in 2 or 3 pans of ammonia and add a few test blocks so you can
remove them and wipe with oil to check the color. The true color won't
come out until you put some oil or the like on it.

A few other points.

Park it in the sun - the warmer it is, the color leans towards the red
end of brown. Cooler and it leans towards green.

If it turns out greener than you wish, hit with some orange shellac to
negate the green.

Use a GOOD respirator and goggles when you go in there - a dust mask
ain't gonna cut it.

Be sure to use blueprint ammonia as you'll be leaving the table in the
trailer for a LONG time with household ammonia.

If the table has leaves, be sure to open the table up and leave spaces
between the leaves so all edges, surfaces, etc are exposed to the air.

I think different cartridges are required for ammonia than for paint
solvents.

On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:05:06 GMT, B a r r y
wrote:

The filter model I have states that it's useful for ammonia.

Then buy some new ones of the same model - they have a limited lifespan,
and for ammonia you'll be needing them fresh. This is also why storing
solvent respirators out in the open is a no-no (for plain dust traps
it's not so bad)..

Ammonia is highly water soluble, which is why you need the sealed
goggles or full face mask. Any mucous membrane, including eyes, is a
magnet for it.

To vent the stuff afterwards you'll be wanting to open the main doors,
not just open a window. If the trailer has an aluminium frame, you may
also notice a little corrosion beginning.

Personally I might use the trailer as the frame for a fuming tent, but
I'd make the tent itself smaller, just big enough to fit around the
table and allow air circulation space. The amount of ammonia you need to
use depends on this air volume, so you could easily be talking four or
five times as much ammonia for a tented vs. untented trailer. It's cheap
enough, but it is tiresome to handle.


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

My experience with fuming white oak indicated that extra time did not darken
the wood more, but it did deepen the darkening.

That is, my fuming was done for 2-3 days and the color penetration was at
least 1/8" (way more than you would sand through).

When I came up a little short and needed to add a little material to finish
off one area, the quickie 6-hour fume brought me to the right color, but
sanding revealed a lighter tone.

So, my recomendation would me to leave it a while *longer* after you reach
the desired color.

FWIW, I used hosehold ammonia and it appeared to work just fine.

Steve

"B a r r y" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking about trying to fume some white oak. The first project
will be a 42x72 dining table.

I have a 5x10, enclosed, water tight utility trailer. I think the
trailer may make a great enclosure to fume such a large item. When I'm
happy with the color, I can simply leave the doors and roof vents open
to purge the air.

Comments? Suggestions?

Barry

Andy Dingley wrote:

Ammonia is highly water soluble, which is why you need the sealed
goggles or full face mask. Any mucous membrane, including eyes, is a
magnet for it.

Thanks. The plan was to stick some test blocks inside, so I'd simply be
reaching in to grab one and shutting the side door.

To vent the stuff afterwards you'll be wanting to open the main doors,
not just open a window. If the trailer has an aluminium frame, you may
also notice a little corrosion beginning.

It's a steel frame, but the ceiling has exposed aluminum skin. This is
something I hadn't thought of...

Personally I might use the trailer as the frame for a fuming tent, but
I'd make the tent itself smaller, just big enough to fit around the
table and allow air circulation space. The amount of ammonia you need to
use depends on this air volume, so you could easily be talking four or
five times as much ammonia for a tented vs. untented trailer. It's cheap
enough, but it is tiresome to handle.

Your point about the aluminum corrosion actually has me rethinking the
whole idea. The air volume is yet another excellent point. I might be
better off with a poly / 1x2 / duct tape containment underneath my deck.

I could tent the table, leaving an access door for the test blocks to be
removed.

Thanks Andy!
Barry

That may be the difference in the strength of the ammonia. I've left
scraps in for 48 hours and they've turned almost black but that's with
the 24% or 28% stuff.

Since I do not have easy access to the strong stuff I have no way to test my
hypothesis. 2 years of HS chem can only carry me so far.

Ammonia (NH3) is a gas. It is sold in the form of water with the gas in
solution.

In a tent, the gas comes out of solution an into the "air". The ammonia gas
in the "air" reacts with tannins in the wood to turn the wood dark. I assume
that the color change stops when the reactive chemical is the wood is "used
up". This is consistent with my imperical observation that most of the color
change took place on the surface within 12 hours. There was no significant
change after 24 (although I beleive that the reaction was still taking place
inside the wood as white oak is only mildly gas permiable.

My hypothesis is that industrial grade ammonia would olny be faster. However
that is just a theory.

Personally I'd be really intersted to see a side by side comparison of
household vs industrial. It would be nice to know.

Steve


wrote in message
oups.com...
That may be the difference in the strength of the ammonia. I've left
scraps in for 48 hours and they've turned almost black but that's with
the 24% or 28% stuff.

I'll put the household strength on the shopping list and see if I can
do a side by side comparison this weekend. There are some extra totes
in the basement and I'll cut the test scraps from the same board. I'll
try both white oak and red oak.

On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:16:53 -0400, Stephen M wrote:
Since I do not have easy access to the strong stuff I have no way to test my
hypothesis. 2 years of HS chem can only carry me so far.

Well, if you can find a place that does blueprints in your area, they
may have a source for "strong ammonia water". Note that this is NASTY
stuff to have anywhere near anyone, but does the trick nicely.

Ammonia (NH3) is a gas. It is sold in the form of water with the gas in
solution.

Right. NH3 is extremely hygroscopic (or is it hygrophilic?). Anyway,
it likes to bond with water, a LOT. But, it'll come back out given the
chance.

In a tent, the gas comes out of solution an into the "air". The ammonia gas
in the "air" reacts with tannins in the wood to turn the wood dark. I assume
that the color change stops when the reactive chemical is the wood is "used
up".

At some point a balance is reached, not sure which runs out of what
first, but yes.

This is consistent with my imperical observation that most of the color
change took place on the surface within 12 hours. There was no significant
change after 24 (although I beleive that the reaction was still taking place
inside the wood as white oak is only mildly gas permiable.

My hypothesis is that industrial grade ammonia would olny be faster. However
that is just a theory.

It probably wouldn't get any darker. Assuming you use up tannin before
you use up ammonia, the strength just gives you speed vs. control.

Personally I'd be really intersted to see a side by side comparison of
household vs industrial. It would be nice to know.

I'm sure someone has studied it, but I can't google up anything on it.

On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:16:53 -0400, "Stephen M"
wrote:

The ammonia gas
in the "air" reacts with tannins in the wood to turn the wood dark. I assume
that the color change stops when the reactive chemical is the wood is "used
up".

try this - a couple of samples of oak from the same board. Gas fume
one, treat the other with a light wet coat of the ammonia solution (26%
"strong household ammonia" for my technique). The gas fumed oak has a
greyish brown colour, the wet-treated oak has a much darker near-black.

So the gas reaction may well proceed to an equilibrium and then stop,
but there's clearly a way to force it well beyond this, by applying an
aqueous solution. So whatever is limiting the reaction, I don't think
it's simply shortage of tannins.

Sounds like a really cool adventure. Would it be helpful if there was a
small fan re-circulating the ammonia fumes inside the tent?

What other woods would react favourably?

In article , Robatoy wrote:
Sounds like a really cool adventure. Would it be helpful if there was a
small fan re-circulating the ammonia fumes inside the tent?

What other woods would react favourably?

Cherry reacts beautifully.

Red oak sucks, though - turns kind of a sickly bile-green.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Robatoy wrote:

Sounds like a really cool adventure. Would it be helpful if there was a
small fan re-circulating the ammonia fumes inside the tent?

What other woods would react favourably?


Cherry reacts beautifully.

Red oak sucks, though - turns kind of a sickly bile-green.



How exactly does cherry react? Will be finishing a table in a few days
-- mission style in cherry... So curious...

I will experiment -- but what did it turn out like for you so I can see
if I get similar results when I do a small test piece...


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

In article , WillR wrote:
How exactly does cherry react? Will be finishing a table in a few days
-- mission style in cherry... So curious...

It darkens, rather like it does on exposure to light, but it's not quite the
same somehow... fuming seems to produce a richer, deeper color.

I will experiment -- but what did it turn out like for you so I can see
if I get similar results when I do a small test piece...

Sorry, I seem to have given an incorrect impression. I haven't actually done
it myself - one of the other wreckers (David Eisan, I think it was) did an
experiment, and posted some photos of his work to abpw six months or a year
back. Just gorgeous. It was those photos to which I referred, not my own work.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

If you can hold off until after the weekend, I'll put some cherry in
with the oak (for the experiment further down the thread) and post some
pictures.

You can also use it in the hose-end sprayer for fertilizer a la Jerry
Baker

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , WillR wrote:

How exactly does cherry react? Will be finishing a table in a few days
-- mission style in cherry... So curious...


It darkens, rather like it does on exposure to light, but it's not quite the
same somehow... fuming seems to produce a richer, deeper color.

I will experiment -- but what did it turn out like for you so I can see
if I get similar results when I do a small test piece...


Sorry, I seem to have given an incorrect impression. I haven't actually done
it myself - one of the other wreckers (David Eisan, I think it was) did an
experiment, and posted some photos of his work to abpw six months or a year
back. Just gorgeous. It was those photos to which I referred, not my own work.




Thanks for the reply anyway. I may try it.

I have been doing some mission style pieces for a local retailer. Maybe
the White Oak and the cherry can be fumed to get the dark colour people
love so much. :-)


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

In article ,
WillR wrote:

Maybe
the White Oak and the cherry can be fumed to get the dark colour people
love so much. :-)

Just to toss in my 2¢ - I love the look of fumed cherry - especially
when quartersawn. Both cherry and w. oak turn a beautiful deep and rich
coloration when ammonia fumed. (Note: if a piece includes sapwood, the
fuming won't affect it nearly enough to blend in. You'll have to use a
stain to blend it.)
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

this is a great thread.

I have little experiance in finishes, and never any thing beyond pine and
oak.(i guess white oak) soft wood.
i did not know about fuming.I had to google it.
now i feel i have another tool to use.
thanks.
larry T

"B a r r y" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking about trying to fume some white oak. The first project
will be a 42x72 dining table.

I have a 5x10, enclosed, water tight utility trailer. I think the
trailer may make a great enclosure to fume such a large item. When I'm
happy with the color, I can simply leave the doors and roof vents open
to purge the air.

Comments? Suggestions?

Barry