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  #1   Report Post  
Matt Zack
 
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Default Powermatic or General ( finally !!! )

Well... I never thought I would see this day, but it looks like I'm shopping
for a new dream table saw.
I need to stay in the $2000 range and I am ( I know.... it's been beat to
death... ) looking for recommendations on what you would do. I think I'm
going for a Powermatic or General, but thinking that maybe one of you know
where I can find my best price, or maybe know of someone selling a used one
in great condition.
I figure I'll get the usual ' you suck ' responses after I get it, but I can
live with that.
Thanks in advance - Matt


  #2   Report Post  
JuanKnighter
 
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There are two types of GENERAL.....one made in CANADA (the standard in
school shops and many pro shops) and GENERAL INTERNATIONAL... imported.
The logos look very similiar to the uninformed. Big difference in prices
and quality.
They say the Canadian made one will stand up to 30 years of abuse by high
school shop students... 'nuff said?


  #3   Report Post  
RonB
 
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Wonder if the newer Unisaws will do as well as the ones we used in HS and
college wood shops 30 years ago?


  #4   Report Post  
 
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I'd probably opt for the Powermatic. I think they're both great saws,
and anecdotal feedback seems to indicate that General can be a bear to
deal with from a customer service standpoint post sale.

  #5   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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Sawstop! http://www.sawstop.com/ see the movies there and
you could do a search for past posted reviews in this group.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/




  #6   Report Post  
Upscale
 
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wrote in message
I'd probably opt for the Powermatic. I think they're both great saws,
and anecdotal feedback seems to indicate that General can be a bear to
deal with from a customer service standpoint post sale.


Being a Canadian, I'd opt for the General. I haven't bought one yet, but
it's on my wishlist. As far as customer service goes for General, I think it
depends on who your service rep is for General and how you deal with them.
I've talked to a few General sales reps at more than one woodworking show
and to a man, they've all been very accommodating with information,
technical details and following up.


  #7   Report Post  
Matt Zack
 
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That is very impressive !!
You only need to take advantage of that thing once !
Thank you.
"AAvK" wrote in message
news:13uje.10977$gp.10209@fed1read03...

Sawstop! http://www.sawstop.com/ see the movies there and
you could do a search for past posted reviews in this group.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/



  #8   Report Post  
Matt Zack
 
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I like smooth adjustments and minimal vibration.
Has anyone a/b tested both saws?

Also... General has something called the Millineum right now. Is it worth
$2069 ? What model is the best General to get?
Matt


  #9   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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"RonB" writes:

Wonder if the newer Unisaws will do as well as the ones we used in HS and
college wood shops 30 years ago?


We had all Northfield tools at my HS shop in the 1980s. Table saw was a
16". I can't even imagine the cost of just the blade.

We also had a 14" or 16" Delta RAS and the thing wasn't usable most of the
school year because they couldn't afford a new bearing for the
raising/lowering mechanism.

Brian Elfert
  #11   Report Post  
bole2cant
 
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I have a General 350 for sale but the email I sent bounced because it is
invalid.

-Doug


  #12   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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"Matt Zack" wrote in
m:

I like smooth adjustments and minimal vibration.
Has anyone a/b tested both saws?

Also... General has something called the Millineum right now. Is it
worth $2069 ? What model is the best General to get?
Matt


The differences between the top line saws are not nearly as important as
the differences between the dealers and/or distibutors from whom you can or
will purchase the saw.

Availability, shipping, setup, knowing who has the current 'hot deal', who
has stock at a good price and wants to move it, who has the accessories
that you may need, whose repair services match your needs...

You've said nothing about where you live, so I can't recommend a dealer
near you.

It is rumoured that the first production Unisaw built is still in regular
service.

http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_frm/thread/ba3c2ac47f80f84/aba
2fa46b0954aa4?q=el+guapo+unisaw&rnum=1&hl=en#aba2f a46b0954aa4

With Delta's current changes, picking either the Powermatic or the General
is an excellent choice.

Patriarch
  #13   Report Post  
Bernoulli
 
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Matt Zack wrote:
Well... I never thought I would see this day, but it looks like I'm

shopping
for a new dream table saw.


Thanks in advance - Matt


I have run into three recent PM66 buyers who have been unhappy with
their saws. Excessive runout and warped tables. One sold, one
returned and one still dealing with customer service. I have nothing
against them; I have one - 25 years old that works fine. Whatever you
look at, learn how to check the runout and table flatness - new or
used.

  #14   Report Post  
 
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I own the 650 - have for 2 years. Went through the same research and
comparisons your likely dealing with. Looked at them all in person and
chose the General - love it. Drop me an email at
and I'll forward you an article from Wood
magazine, October 2003 that did a shootout. General came out on top.
That said, I think the 66 is pretty solid. The plastic motor cover
turned me off.

  #15   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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"Matt Zack" wrote in message

but thinking that maybe one of you know where I can find my best price,


I'm glad you are asking about the "best" price. Many ask about the lowest
price and later find that was not the best. Check out your local dealers.
When buying a $2000 tool, the dealer service is much more important that
saving 20 bucks up front.




  #16   Report Post  
Upscale
 
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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message

I'm glad you are asking about the "best" price. Many ask about the lowest
price and later find that was not the best. Check out your local dealers.
When buying a $2000 tool, the dealer service is much more important that
saving 20 bucks up front.


Good point. A decent working relationship with a vendor can easily save a
person hundreds of dollars in frustration and aggravation.


  #18   Report Post  
Matt Zack
 
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Doug - please try

mattzack at gmail dot com

Thanks

"bole2cant" wrote in message
...
I have a General 350 for sale but the email I sent bounced because it is
invalid.

-Doug




  #19   Report Post  
pho
 
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I'd still stay with the unisaw. With the exception of the motor, they
are still USA made, and any part of the 2005 model will fit the 1939
model..( right tilt). Best resale vale too... The motors come from
Brazil and seem to be trouble free...

AAvK wrote:
Sawstop! http://www.sawstop.com/ see the movies there and
you could do a search for past posted reviews in this group.


  #20   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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"pho" wrote in message ...
I'd still stay with the unisaw. With the exception of the motor, they are still USA made, and any part of the 2005 model will fit
the 1939 model..( right tilt). Best resale vale too... The motors come from Brazil and seem to be trouble free...


Ain't as safe tho... where are Sawstops made?

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/




  #21   Report Post  
 
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If your interested you can email: auto119042 @ hotmail dot com for the
..pdf table saw shootout article in Wood magazine from 10/03.

  #22   Report Post  
Dave W
 
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I also just went through the General vs everything else selection and turned
to General (made in Canada). I had a Powermatic Artisan. It was such a
piece of junk that Powermatic never seriously entered the equation. My
uhderstanding is that all their saws are made in the far east. The General
has met my expectations completely. It is a very serious machine that
should long outlast me.
Dave


  #23   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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"Dave W" writes:

I also just went through the General vs everything else selection and turned
to General (made in Canada). I had a Powermatic Artisan. It was such a
piece of junk that Powermatic never seriously entered the equation. My
uhderstanding is that all their saws are made in the far east. The General


PM66s are still made in the USA. Personally, I would get the General
350/650 if the price was the same. I like my General drill press except
for the initial cost.

I only have a Unisaw, but it is plenty good for me. It is a refurb I got
for a decent price.

Brian Elfert
  #24   Report Post  
Slowhand
 
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"Matt Zack" wrote in message
m...
Well... I never thought I would see this day, but it looks like I'm
shopping for a new dream table saw.
I need to stay in the $2000 range.

snip

Since no one else stepped in, I'd have to say if I had it all to do over
again, I'd still buy a 1950ish unisaw. I've had the opportunity to try
almost all newer table saws and I still haven't found any reason to upgrade
(other than the newer ones being prettier). You can pick up older unisaurs
for around $500-600 bucks. Save the rest of the dough for some other tool.
Just my 2 cents.
SH


  #25   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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I'd still stay with the unisaw. With the exception of the motor, they
are still USA made, and any part of the 2005 model will fit the 1939 model..( right tilt). Best resale vale too... The motors
come from Brazil and seem to be trouble free...


Yeah I'd still say that safety factor is mighty strong argument tho...too good.
Plenty of beloved saws are Chinese. It's what I'd have to do considering my
nerve conditions. But that's just me.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/




  #26   Report Post  
Bob G.
 
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On Sun, 22 May 2005 11:56:25 -0700, "Slowhand" I'm@work wrote:




Since no one else stepped in, I'd have to say if I had it all to do over
again, I'd still buy a 1950ish unisaw. I've had the opportunity to try
almost all newer table saws and I still haven't found any reason to upgrade
(other than the newer ones being prettier). You can pick up older unisaurs
for around $500-600 bucks. Save the rest of the dough for some other tool.
Just my 2 cents.
SH


Maybe you can pick up an older Unisaw for 5 to 600 bucks...but I can
not even remember when I saw a used one for sale...PERIOD !

That said IF I found a used one I would buy it in a heart
beat...Pretty rare around this neck of the woods to see any tablesaws
(except Craftsman) for sale...

Bob Griffiths.
  #27   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article AwNje.21886$gp.5024@fed1read03, AAvK wrote:

"pho" wrote in message
...
I'd still stay with the unisaw. With the exception of the motor, they

are still USA made, and any part of the 2005 model will fit
the 1939 model..( right tilt). Best resale vale too... The motors

come from Brazil and seem to be trouble free...


Ain't as safe tho... where are Sawstops made?



One of the Pacific Rim countries. I _think_ it's Tiawan, but I wouldn't
bet on it.

The downside to the Sawstop is the _cost_ of an activation. measured both
in time and money, it is non-trivial. circa $80, as I recall, for the
'replacement' cartridge, *plus* whatever damage is done to the blade.

Which leads the issue of 'false positives' -- those cases where the thing
triggers off for some reason _other_ than a human body-part in contact with
the blade. This is an issue that *NOBODY*KNOWS* how likely it is to occur.
It is impossible to predict what might happen in 'uncontrolled environments
that could trigger the safety device.

The Sawstop cabinet saw _LOOKS_ to be well built, and is actually priced
fairly competitively. Their contractor saw price, however, is on the
high side.

How well it stands up to heavy use is, _at_this_time_, an "unknown question".
When a 'significant' number of users have had them in 'day-in/day-out' use
for 10-15 years or more, THEN there will be some 'hard data' available, as
regards the construction 'quality'.

If _I_ were in the market for a *NEW* cabinet saw, I might actually consider
the SawStop saw. I'd be a _lot_ more inclined to do so, if they gave an
"insurance policy" against false triggerings -- that would replace the
cartridge and the blade..


That said, I'm _not_ likely to ever buy a _new_ saw. I'd much rather buy
a "well used" older saw.


  #28   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article ,
Bob G. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2005 11:56:25 -0700, "Slowhand" I'm@work wrote:




Since no one else stepped in, I'd have to say if I had it all to do over
again, I'd still buy a 1950ish unisaw. I've had the opportunity to try
almost all newer table saws and I still haven't found any reason to upgrade
(other than the newer ones being prettier). You can pick up older unisaurs
for around $500-600 bucks. Save the rest of the dough for some other tool.
Just my 2 cents.
SH


Maybe you can pick up an older Unisaw for 5 to 600 bucks...but I can
not even remember when I saw a used one for sale...PERIOD !

That said IF I found a used one I would buy it in a heart
beat...Pretty rare around this neck of the woods to see any tablesaws
(except Craftsman) for sale...


Check out the U.S. Dept. of Defense sales. The "Defense Property Disposal
Office." You wouldn't *believe* what they have for sale on occasion.

  #29   Report Post  
Upscale
 
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Which leads the issue of 'false positives' -- those cases where the thing
triggers off for some reason _other_ than a human body-part in contact

with
the blade. This is an issue that *NOBODY*KNOWS* how likely it is to

occur.
It is impossible to predict what might happen in 'uncontrolled

environments
that could trigger the safety device.


Sorry Robert, but that's not a valid reason not to buy it. You're basing
your argument on the lack of evidence as a reason not to consider buying it.
That thinking is a basic fallacy of logical argument. It is understandable
however, that you might be uneasy about it because it is a new product and
not yet time tested.


  #30   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Robert Bonomi wrote:

....
The downside to the Sawstop is the _cost_ of an activation. measured both
in time and money, it is non-trivial. circa $80, as I recall, for the
'replacement' cartridge, *plus* whatever damage is done to the blade.


Which would undoubtedly be considerably extended in medical costs and
likely in missed work time, irregardless whether the woodworking is
professional or hobby....

Which leads the issue of 'false positives' -- those cases where the thing
triggers off for some reason _other_ than a human body-part in contact with
the blade. This is an issue that *NOBODY*KNOWS* how likely it is to occur.
It is impossible to predict what might happen in 'uncontrolled environments
that could trigger the safety device.

....

Well, the rate could be pretty well predicted on the basis of extensive
testing which I would presume they would have quite a bit of...I'm
unaware of them having published any data from which to draw any
conclusions on either side. I would suspect they will have a pretty
good idea before they commit to production, however.


  #31   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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That is all okay with me, the cost of the cylinder and all... I would
use the saw carefully as possible and buy a new one every other
month, build up an arsenal of them over time. That safety factor is
too good for my nervous system. Not gonna buy the saw though.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/


  #32   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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Although, I can imagine false triggerings occuring through wet wood... ay?

But if the system is warrenteed, guarenteed, has undergone years of devel-
opment and perfected all along the way, shouldn't be a problem, but I would
take more concern into all they have discovered in possibilities.


  #33   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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AAvK wrote:

Although, I can imagine false triggerings occuring through wet wood... ay?

But if the system is warrenteed, guarenteed, has undergone years of devel-
opment and perfected all along the way, shouldn't be a problem, but I would
take more concern into all they have discovered in possibilities.


My understanding is there's a bypass mechanism provided for such
usage--of course, using it defeats the whole purpose of the saw, but
apparently there are some instances where the technology just isn't
suitable...
  #34   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article M3mke.22037$gp.16751@fed1read03, "AAvK" wrote:

Although, I can imagine false triggerings occuring through wet wood... ay?


Why would anyone be cutting wet wood on a table saw?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #35   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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Bob G. wrote in
:

Since no one else stepped in, I'd have to say if I had it all to do
over again, I'd still buy a 1950ish unisaw. I've had the opportunity
to try almost all newer table saws and I still haven't found any
reason to upgrade (other than the newer ones being prettier). You can
pick up older unisaurs for around $500-600 bucks. Save the rest of
the dough for some other tool. Just my 2 cents.


Maybe you can pick up an older Unisaw for 5 to 600 bucks...but I can
not even remember when I saw a used one for sale...PERIOD !

That said IF I found a used one I would buy it in a heart
beat...Pretty rare around this neck of the woods to see any tablesaws
(except Craftsman) for sale...


It's Murphy's Law of Used Tool Acquisition. When I was looking for a used
lathe, three really nice, very reasonably priced cabinet saws became
available, over a period of two weeks, through the club email lists. (SF
Bay Area)

When I gave up on the used lathe, and bought a new one, a 50+ year old 8"
long bed Delta jointer, fully rebuilt, showed up on the list. The lathe
lesson fresh in my mind, I bought the jointer, too.

One thing I'll say: My wife recognizes a new tool in the shop, all bright
and shiny. A used tool is a stealth tool.

Patriarch


  #37   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article ,
Upscale wrote:
"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Which leads the issue of 'false positives' -- those cases where the thing
triggers off for some reason _other_ than a human body-part in contact

with
the blade. This is an issue that *NOBODY*KNOWS* how likely it is to

occur.
It is impossible to predict what might happen in 'uncontrolled

environments
that could trigger the safety device.


Sorry Robert, but that's not a valid reason not to buy it. You're basing
your argument on the lack of evidence as a reason not to consider buying it.
That thinking is a basic fallacy of logical argument. It is understandable
however, that you might be uneasy about it because it is a new product and
not yet time tested.


"Total Cost of Ownership" is a _valid_ consideration in making a purchase
determination. Ongoing 'operating' cost is an integral part of TCO. The
likelihood of a 'significant' recurring expense is a part of estimating
on-going costs.

If the thing 'false triggers' on a -weekly- basis, at a "cost" of half
an hour of down-time, and $50-$200 in parts, It is 'too expensive' to
maintain.

If the false triggers are 'less than once in 20 years', it is an entirely
different matter.

The _lack_of_data_ on the subject means that there *is* a significant
"uncertainty" as to the future operating costs of this device.

"Don't know" _means_ *don't*know*, and from a 'prudent business decision'
standpoint, one must assume a fairly pessimistic probability for expenses
that one does _not_ have data to make 'informed estimates' for -- failure
to do so can, and *has* put firms out of business, when expenses turned
out to be 'higher than estimated'.

In a 'personal-use' purchase, one doesn't have the 'business risk' consider-
ations, granted. However, there is always the question of "'how much more'
is this particular feature worth to me?" If you cannot make a reasonable
estimate of the total costs (immediate _and_ future) you cannot make a
reasoned decision in regard to "is it worth the cost".

How much 'uncertainty' one is willing to buy into _is_ a valid purchasing
decision consideration.

*IF* -- and I want to stress that I am pulling numbers out of thin air here,
strictly for purposes of discussion; I have *NO*IDEA* what the actual
false-positive triggering rate is -- ,in "real-world" environments, the
sawstop 'false triggers' 1000 times (at a cost of $100+) for every valid
triggering, and that valid triggering prevents an injury that costs $25,000
including treatment *and* any loss-of-use, impairment, disability, etc.
then society as a whole, _and_ the average user, is better off *not*
spending the $100,000+ to save a perceived value of $25,000. If there
are only 25 false positives per valid triggering, the economics of the
situation are *entirely* different.

The point is, again, that we *don't*know*. Which means that any decision
is being made on a basis of "faith" -- an _un-reasoned_ conclusion.

This, in and of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. As long as you
understand that that _is_ what you are doing, and you know _why_ you are
doing it.

Deluding oneself that one is making a "rational, reasoned, decision", on
the basis of something that can be only 'taken on faith' is exactly that.
Delusions.

  #38   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

...
The downside to the Sawstop is the _cost_ of an activation. measured both
in time and money, it is non-trivial. circa $80, as I recall, for the
'replacement' cartridge, *plus* whatever damage is done to the blade.


Which would undoubtedly be considerably extended in medical costs and
likely in missed work time, irregardless whether the woodworking is
professional or hobby....


That assumes that the triggering _did_ prevent an accident. grin

Yes, in the case of an _actual_ accident prevention, the expense is
"cheap at {bigmultiple} the price".

In the case of a 'false alarm', it is a totally _unnecessary_ expense.

The trick is differentiating the two cases -- maximizing the former,
and minimizing the latter.

The manufacturer concentrates almost exclusively on the first situation,
and (apparently) totally ignores the latter one.

Which leads the issue of 'false positives' -- those cases where the thing
triggers off for some reason _other_ than a human body-part in contact with
the blade. This is an issue that *NOBODY*KNOWS* how likely it is to occur.
It is impossible to predict what might happen in 'uncontrolled environments
that could trigger the safety device.

...

Well, the rate could be pretty well predicted on the basis of extensive
testing which I would presume they would have quite a bit of...I'm
unaware of them having published any data from which to draw any
conclusions on either side. I would suspect they will have a pretty
good idea before they commit to production, however.


Obviously you're not aware that the saw *IS* in production. grin
They've been delivering since last fall.

And that "lack of published data" is _precisely_ the point. Emphasis on
the word "PUBLISHED". If the manufacturer knows, they're *not*talking*.
Which leads one to ask "why _not_?"

I can think of only _two_ possible answers to that --
1) they do *not* have comprehensive false-triggering data.
2) the data shows an 'unacceptably high' rate of false-triggering,
and disclosing it would adversely affect their marketing.

I do *NOT* have any reason to believe that #2 is the case.

I strongly suspect that #1 -is- true. It is *very* difficult to test for
'unexpected' circumstances. It may seem trite, but if you can think of
it happening and test for it, then it is _not_, by definition, an 'unexpected'
situation.

One kind of a "silly" example:

You're making a zero-clearance insert, from some plastic 'scraps' obtained
from a local manufacturer. You trim to size, put it in the table, turn on
the saw, and start to raise the blade.

*BANG*

It turns out that that piece of plastic was sufficiently *conductive* to
trigger the protective mechanism.

_Could_ that happen? *You*betcha*! How likely is it? *GOOD* question! I
don't have the data to begin making an estimate.

Is there any _rational_ way for the manufacturer to _test_ for it?
And, if they do, what does it show?


There is a saying in the Q.A business:
"For every fool-proof system there exists a
*sufficiently*determined* fool capable of breaking it."

*NOTHING* can substitute for a few million hours of actual use by the afore-
mentioned "sufficiently determined" types.

"Discovered bugs, are finite in number. *UNDISCOVERED* bugs, on the other
hand, are, by definition. _infinite_ in number."


  #39   Report Post  
Upscale
 
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Obviously you're not aware that the saw *IS* in production. grin
They've been delivering since last fall.


Consider this. People are much more likely to complain problems with a
product than they are to compliment a product. Would to agree to that? If
so, then considering that it *has* been in production since last fall, I
have yet to see anyone complaining about one of your "false-positives"
happening to them. I imagine that if there were any, someone would have been
yelling wide and long by now and everybody here would know about it.

How does that affect all your "if's" you've been proposing? Seems to me so
far, your "ifs" have succumbed to a few "has nots" or "has not yets".


  #40   Report Post  
Upscale
 
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

If the thing 'false triggers' on a -weekly- basis, at a "cost" of half
an hour of down-time, and $50-$200 in parts, It is 'too expensive' to
maintain.


One other thing occurred to me. I think most would agree that this is a well
built saw, excluding any consideration for the saw-stop function. If, (which
appears to be one of your favourite words) as you say it 'false triggers'
once in awhile or too much for whatever time period you deem to be
appropriate, then you can still turn the saw-stop function off, have a good
working saw on hand and not worry anymore about some of your 'false
triggers' happening in the future.

It's not as if any 'false-triggers' are going to bankrupt you. It might
disappoint you or you might end up with a little bit less of a machine than
you wanted, but any way you look it, you'd still own a highly capable, solid
piece of woodworking machinery. As far as I'm concerned, that's a win in my
books.


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