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Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
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#1
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Please...need help...ONE last electrical discussion...
I'm new to woodworking, and thought I'd try here for advice first.
I just inherited my grandfather's tools, and one of them is an old Uniswaw. It's down in my basement now, and I would like to hook it up, but all the outlets down there are two-prongers and the saw is obviously three. If I were to run a piece of wire from the cabinet of the saw over to one of the exposed water pipes, would that be enough grounding for me to be able to safely cut-off the third prong? Also, if this is safe, how big a wire should I run? (The saw is 110 volts, BTW) Thanks, Greg |
#2
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Does the house have well-water?
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#3
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No, it's city water.
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#4
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Hi, Greg.
From your question, it seems that you're kinda unfamiliar with electrical safety. I'd suggest you find a competent electrician who can: 1. determine what must be supplied to the saw, _and_ other devices that might share a branch circuit, 2. install appropriately-rated branch-circuit a/r, 3. in compliance with NEC. Nothing like an electrical fire in the basement. HTH, John |
#5
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"Kinda" is not the word!! ("Completely" would be my choice)
Unfortunately, my house is a rental, and I know my landlord won't pay to upgrade the wiring. |
#6
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#7
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I would recommend you seek help from one of the forums dedicated to DIY
home wiring. I would personally recommend: http://www.selfhelpforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12 and http://forum.doityourself.com/forumd...0&daysprune=-1 It is only code-compliant to run a ground to the water supply system in parts of Canada, and even then, it is not recommended. Do not cut the ground prong off the plug. There are other, better ways to solve your problem. Steve |
#8
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I'm not sure what you mean by a "troll." But I can tell you that I
don't think it's the original power cord. The cord looks a lot newer than the rest of the machine does. |
#9
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wrote in message oups.com... I'm new to woodworking, and thought I'd try here for advice first. I just inherited my grandfather's tools, and one of them is an old Uniswaw. It's down in my basement now, and I would like to hook it up, but all the outlets down there are two-prongers and the saw is obviously three. If I were to run a piece of wire from the cabinet of the saw over to one of the exposed water pipes, would that be enough grounding for me to be able to safely cut-off the third prong? Also, if this is safe, how big a wire should I run? (The saw is 110 volts, BTW) Recheck The motor, and that would be the inside wiring, not just the nameplate. Even our old R/I was wired 220, but it was capable of 110. Not that _I_ would ever do it, but some people have "made do" when they controlled both genders of plug. Most basements, if wired to code, were grounded through the conduit, though a lot of folks, as you can tell, have done their own wiring. Think it's 9.95 for a polarity/continuity/ground checker at most home stores. Well worth it, because there are often hidden transitions to non-metallic pipe where plumbing has been repaired or moved. |
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#12
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No, because you don't know if the water pipes are grounded or not -
they could be PVC out to the street. They may or may not be bonded but it's not something you want to find out the hard way. Get some 12-2 with ground romex and run a new line from the panel box to a new grounded outlet. If you're not comfortable, have an electician do it. Shouldn't cost much at all. |
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#14
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#15
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Are you sure it is 120v? Most motors over 1.5hp are 240v because the
current requirement is too high. And if it is 120v, do you have 20a outlets in your basement? It is almost certainly over 15a. I suspect you will have to put in a new circuit whether you want to or not. Assuming you make it through all that, and you don't want to put in a new circuit as someone suggested, and you don't have grounded conduit as someone suggested; a GFCI outlet ought to be good enough. There is no danger of a fire as a bunch of people said. The water pipe will either be a really good ground or a really poor ground; neither will start a fire. The issue is that you really don't want to get a shock while feeding wood into a table saw. A GFCI should prevent that. I have only tripped a GFCI once, but I didn't even feel it. After putting in the GFCI outlet, you might want to attach a wire from the frame to a water pipe, as you suggest. It may not be adequate by itself, and it is certainly a code violation, but will act as a back up to the GFCI. No matter how bad the connection it, it will certainly be better than the path to ground through you. (I have said this mainly to annoy the electrical-police, but it is actually true. Any current through the "ground" (or through you, for that matter) will trip the GFCI instantly.) |
#16
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Actually, I do have an idea how much that saw draws and 12-2w ground is
fine so be sure to have some cream with your big cup of STFU. Yes, I did see that he's renting. I don't think that I need to spell out every step. Did you see that I didn't tell him to be sure to strip the ends of the wire? Didn't tell him to put a cover plate over the outlet either. Jesus but you're a pain in the ass. |
#17
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I just took off the motor cover and looked at the motor itself...it
also looks relatively newer than the saw itself, and the voltage is listed at 110/220. I guess it's hooked up to 110, because it's a standard 110v cord. |
#18
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What's the amperage?
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#19
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15/7.5
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#21
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Yeah...just like a lamp/clock/etc.
And by the way, why does the motor list two numbers for the amps? I suppose that has something to do with the two voltages, but how can a motor draw two different amps? |
#22
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wrote in message ups.com... 15/7.5 Okay, it will run on a 15a outlet; I thought Unisaws had much bigger motors. It "should" be on a 20a circuit, especially if it is on the other side of the house from the breaker box, or if there is anything else on the circuit. But since you are renting... A GFCI outlet should solve your problem. |
#23
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The motor uses 1800w. That is 15a/120v or 7.5a/240v.
Basically, at 120v there are two circuits in parallel; at 240v they are wiried in series. In series the resistance is 4 times as high as in parallel, and (since the voltage is twice as high) they draw half the current. Well, I thought this was pretty neat the first time I changed a motor over. |
#24
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wrote in message oups.com... Yeah...just like a lamp/clock/etc. And by the way, why does the motor list two numbers for the amps? I suppose that has something to do with the two voltages, but how can a motor draw two different amps? Not to diss gramps, but make sure those wires are connected IAW the 110 setup. As I said earlier, it is not unknown that people make due with the receptacle/plug they have rather than the one which 220 would demand. Toller finally got it right, twice the volts half the amps. |
#25
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In article , "toller" wrote:
After putting in the GFCI outlet, you might want to attach a wire from the frame to a water pipe, as you suggest. It may not be adequate by itself, and it is certainly a code violation, Yes it is - so why are you advising him to do that? Yet *another* example of why you have no business offering electrical advice. but will act as a back up to the GFCI. Absolute nonsense. If the GFCI has failed, and a ground fault occurs, this will electrify the metal water piping, which is a _very_ hazardous condition. No matter how bad the connection it, it will certainly be better than the path to ground through you. Further nonsense. (I have said this mainly to annoy the electrical-police, but it is actually true. Even further nonsense. Any current through the "ground" (or through you, for that matter) will trip the GFCI instantly.) Not really. Ten milliseconds is pretty fast, I grant you, but it's not instant. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#26
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#27
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Is this something I should do? Will that make the saw more powerful?
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#28
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No, it's just two different ways to get to the same place.
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#29
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In article .com,
wrote: Is this something I should do? Will that make the saw more powerful? Proverbial answer: "It depends". grin If you have 240V readily available, converting to run at 240v will be *slightly* more efficient. "All else being equal", we're talking about a _few_ percentage points in improvement. *HOWEVER*, some motors are rated at significantly higher output at 240V than 120V. E.g. the Baldour motor used on Delta contractor saws is rated at 1.5HP when run at 120V, and *2* HP when run at 240V. The nameplate power draw numbers are also consistent with the assymetric HP ratings. If you can get an extra 1/2 HP , 'just by re-wiring', *and* you find yourself (at least occasionally) in situations where the 1.5 HP rating is 'not enough', converting to 240V *can* make a signficant difference. (The only way to know for sure whether or not it will be beneficial _to_you_ is to 'try it and find out' |
#31
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#32
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If you follow this thread it absolutely *proves* that although there is
some sound electrical advice to be found in this forum, it is far from consistent. And how does a newbie to DIY wiring know the difference. Like I said earlier....for help on wiring I would personally recommend: http://www.selfhelpforums.com/=ADfor...lay.php?f=3D12 and http://forum.doityourself.com/=ADfor...D1&so=ADrt=3D= lastpo... These are forums moderated by knowledgeable electrical professionals, so you can be much more sure of the quality of advice you get. I keep wading through the flamers and the trolls and the evangelists because there is much to be found in the way of *woodworking* expertice here. Steve |
#34
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on 5/17/2005 9:51 AM Mr Fixit eh said the following:
Like I said earlier....for help on wiring I would personally recommend: http://www.selfhelpforums.com/*forumdisplay.php?f=12 and http://forum.doityourself.com/*forum...1&so*rt=lastpo. Both look to be good sites however drop the URLs to the minimum and you will actually be able to just click on them, thusly: http://www.selfhelpforums.com/ http://forum.doityourself.com/ |
#35
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George wrote:
Recheck The motor, and that would be the inside wiring, not just the nameplate. Even our old R/I was wired 220, but it was capable of 110. Not that _I_ would ever do it, but some people have "made do" when they controlled both genders of plug. Most basements, if wired to code, were grounded through the conduit, though a lot of folks, as you can tell, have done their own wiring. Think it's 9.95 for a polarity/continuity/ground checker at most home stores. Well worth it, because there are often hidden transitions to non-metallic pipe where plumbing has been repaired or moved. Just remember, those $9.95 checkers cannot detect neutral switched with ground. This can be done by visual only. Rob |
#36
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#37
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Dont destroy your saw's cord. get an adapter, for the plug.
my mother-in-laws house was built 1949 and has all 2 prong sockets. when i go there i carry my own plug adapter. so i can plug in my 3 prong laptop. I would get a hammer drill and drill through the slab close to the plug you want to use, and drive a grounding rod into the ground. then put in a 3 pround plug with a wire attached to the ground rod.(carful not to hit any under ground pipes or conduits while drilling) or run the ground wire through the wall and put ground rod outside of foundation. Dont use the water pipes, or any other pipe as ground. if it does surge, into the ground(i.e. the pipe) you will kill any one in the house useing the water or taking a bath. it would be best to call an electrition to install. if you have no proper knowledge of wiring. and the land lord cant say anything if an electrition does it and you are paying for it. wrote in message oups.com... I'm new to woodworking, and thought I'd try here for advice first. I just inherited my grandfather's tools, and one of them is an old Uniswaw. It's down in my basement now, and I would like to hook it up, but all the outlets down there are two-prongers and the saw is obviously three. If I were to run a piece of wire from the cabinet of the saw over to one of the exposed water pipes, would that be enough grounding for me to be able to safely cut-off the third prong? Also, if this is safe, how big a wire should I run? (The saw is 110 volts, BTW) Thanks, Greg |
#38
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In article , "Larry and Lois" wrote:
Dont destroy your saw's cord. get an adapter, for the plug. my mother-in-laws house was built 1949 and has all 2 prong sockets. when i go there i carry my own plug adapter. so i can plug in my 3 prong laptop. There's no ground-fault protection in those adapters, though. I would get a hammer drill and drill through the slab close to the plug you want to use, and drive a grounding rod into the ground. then put in a 3 pround plug with a wire attached to the ground rod.(carful not to hit any under ground pipes or conduits while drilling) or run the ground wire through the wall and put ground rod outside of foundation. Multiple problems with that idea, starting with drilling through the slab in a rental dwelling. It's doubtful that the landlord is going to be too happy with that. Furthermore, Code requires any such ground rod to be bonded to the remainder of the building's grounding electrode system (typically another ground rod next to the service entrance). Seeing as how a grounding conductor would have to be run from that ground rod back to the service entrance *anyway*, it's obviously much less work to simply run a grounding conductor from the receptacle to the service entrance. If the circuit is in conduit (as I think the OP said in another post), that's trivial. In any event... a ground-fault circuit interrupter: a) provides a Code-compliant three-prong outlet b) provides Code-*required* ground fault protection even if the circuit isn't grounded c) costs less than ten bucks d) can be safely installed by a layman e) is unlikely to meet with any objection by the landlord, as long as the tenant asks permission _first_. So why look for more complicated and expensive solutions to the problem? Dont use the water pipes, or any other pipe as ground. if it does surge, into the ground(i.e. the pipe) you will kill any one in the house useing the water or taking a bath. Correct advice, but the risk should be stated as "... may kill ...". it would be best to call an electrition to install. if you have no proper knowledge of wiring. and the land lord cant say anything if an electrition does it and you are paying for it. Quite wrong. The landlord owns the premises, and (unless the lease specifically states otherwise) any modifications to the premises would require his permission, regardless of who pays for them. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#39
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"Larry and Lois" writes:
Dont destroy your saw's cord. get an adapter, for the plug. my mother-in-laws house was built 1949 and has all 2 prong sockets. when i go there i carry my own plug adapter. so i can plug in my 3 prong laptop. I wouldn't suggest this. I would get a hammer drill and drill through the slab close to the plug you want to use, and drive a grounding rod into the ground. then put in a 3 pround plug with a wire attached to the ground rod.(carful not to hit any under ground pipes or conduits while drilling) or run the ground wire through the wall and put ground rod outside of foundation. Nor this. Dont use the water pipes, or any other pipe as ground. if it does surge, into the ground(i.e. the pipe) you will kill any one in the house useing the water or taking a bath. Say what? it would be best to call an electrition to install. if you have no proper knowledge of wiring. Now here is the first bit of good advice in this post. and the land lord cant say anything if an electrition does it and you are paying for it. Whoops, spoke to soon. scott wrote in message roups.com... I'm new to woodworking, and thought I'd try here for advice first. I just inherited my grandfather's tools, and one of them is an old Uniswaw. It's down in my basement now, and I would like to hook it up, but all the outlets down there are two-prongers and the saw is obviously three. If I were to run a piece of wire from the cabinet of the saw over to one of the exposed water pipes, would that be enough grounding for me to be able to safely cut-off the third prong? Also, if this is safe, how big a wire should I run? (The saw is 110 volts, BTW) Thanks, Greg |
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