Basement workshop, humidity problems with a twist
 

I've Google'd and read through most of what has been written on the
subject of controlling basement humidity. Before I run out and buy a
dehumidifier and/or plug in a heater or two, I had a question.

My house (brick & morter) was built in 1914 or thereabout. The walls of
the basement are not provided with a plastic barrier and modern
drainage system, nor do we plan on having it done. The current "fix" is
that all the basement windows are unfinshed - they are mounted and
shimmed, but with no moldings or isolation. Air circulates freely
around the frames and through the basement.

I'm wondering if a dehumidifier is going to have any effect when it's
basically working against nature, as the air in the basement is the
same as the ambient air outside (more or less). I have a nice little
workshop set up, have painted the floors and got ok lighting, but my
tools are rusting! Slowly but surely they are getting small spots and
rust areas, even the Lie-Nielsen planes I ordered last year. I've moved
them into the house, but I obviously cannot put all the tools inside,
no room for that.

Can anyone shed some light of possible solutions to the described situation?

Best regards,
Thor

In article , Thor Legvold wrote:
I've Google'd and read through most of what has been written on the
subject of controlling basement humidity. Before I run out and buy a
dehumidifier and/or plug in a heater or two, I had a question.

My house (brick & morter) was built in 1914 or thereabout. The walls of
the basement are not provided with a plastic barrier and modern
drainage system, nor do we plan on having it done. The current "fix" is
that all the basement windows are unfinshed - they are mounted and
shimmed, but with no moldings or isolation. Air circulates freely
around the frames and through the basement.

You need to fix that problem first, before you even think about a
dehumidifier. You're wasting a tremendous amount of energy, and if air can
circulate freely so can insects and mice.

I'm wondering if a dehumidifier is going to have any effect when it's
basically working against nature, as the air in the basement is the
same as the ambient air outside (more or less).

Of course not.

[...]

Can anyone shed some light of possible solutions to the described situation?

Stop the air infiltration problems around the windows.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller wrote in message
on Tuesday 26 April 2005 05:12 pm:


Can anyone shed some light of possible solutions to the described
situation?

Stop the air infiltration problems around the windows.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

This is a 'me too'. Fix the source of the problem before tackling anything
else. You can't dehumidify the whole planet.

Bill

The problem may not be the environment in your shop. Some people have hand
perspiration that corrodes metal. You may want to clean a piece of steel
well using gloves and test whether or not it corrodes in the shop.
Dave

Hi Doug,

thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, we need to dig up
around the house, provide a membrane and proper drainage, seal the
windows appropriately and then deal with any moisture.

Problem being that there are 3 owners (2 flats in the house) and no
desire or budget to undertake such a large investment (just getting a
backhoe in close to the house is going to tear up all the brick fences,
etc). From what I'm told, simply sealing the windows will only make the
humidity problem worse by trapping moisture in the basement and
encouraging mold and rot in the foundations (not sure if they're brick
or concrete).

I'll discuss it again with the neighbors and see what we can do.

Any other ideas/suggestions for an old house without proper drainage
and a damp basement?

Thor

On 2005-04-26 23:12:16 +0200, (Doug Miller) said:

In article , Thor Legvold wrote:
I've Google'd and read through most of what has been written on the
subject of controlling basement humidity. Before I run out and buy a
dehumidifier and/or plug in a heater or two, I had a question.

My house (brick & morter) was built in 1914 or thereabout. The walls of
the basement are not provided with a plastic barrier and modern
drainage system, nor do we plan on having it done. The current "fix" is
that all the basement windows are unfinshed - they are mounted and
shimmed, but with no moldings or isolation. Air circulates freely
around the frames and through the basement.

You need to fix that problem first, before you even think about a
dehumidifier. You're wasting a tremendous amount of energy, and if air
can circulate freely so can insects and mice.

I'm wondering if a dehumidifier is going to have any effect when it's
basically working against nature, as the air in the basement is the
same as the ambient air outside (more or less).

Of course not.

[...]

Can anyone shed some light of possible solutions to the described situation?

Stop the air infiltration problems around the windows.

As cold as it is in my basement (3-5C in winter, 10-15C summer), I
don't get anywhere near breaking a sweat :-) I don't think that's the
problem, and never noticed any problem when I lived in a warmer climate
(SoCal USA, Croatia, Brazil).

Thanks for the tip, though.

Thor




On 2005-04-27 14:24:59 +0200, "Dave W" said:

The problem may not be the environment in your shop. Some people have
hand perspiration that corrodes metal. You may want to clean a piece
of steel well using gloves and test whether or not it corrodes in the
shop.
Dave

Thor Legvold wrote:

Hi Doug,

thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, we need to dig up
around the house, provide a membrane and proper drainage, seal the
windows appropriately and then deal with any moisture.

Thor, some more description may help. Are we talking about a "daylight
basement" (common term where I live, where slope of the terrain allows
1 or 2 sides to be above grade with outside entrances and windows) or
are you below grade on all 4 sides, and the windows in "wells"? Do you
have natural drainage or a sump pump that could remove water collected
by a dehumidifier?

As others have said, dehumidifying the whole outdoors is not viable,
so seal the windows, then let the dehumidifier do what the leaky
windows were "designed" to do. And if you want ventilation, install a
vent that you can open and close, while letting the windows work
correctly.

You might want to buy a cheap hygrometer (did I get the name right?)
at Radio Shack to see what your humidity is. That, along with the
volume of the area will five you a start to determining what size unit
you need.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Thor Legvold wrote:
Hi Doug,

thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, we need to dig
up
around the house, provide a membrane and proper drainage, seal the
windows appropriately and then deal with any moisture.

Thor,
I don't think he said to dig up the house, he said to seal the windows
to stop air infiltration, then try a de-humidifier. You might also try
to seal the basement walls on the inside with one of those proprietary
paint/coatings that supposedly waterproof the walls and solve problems
just like yours. Sam

Thor,
The humidity also comes from the walls and the floor. They wick
moisture in from the outside. Now days, all interior concrete floors
have to have a vapor barrier under them, and all walls are sealed. Just
sealing the windows won't fix it. There are some sealers that can be
applied to interior floors and walls (check local masonry supply
store), but I don't know how well they work. Any cracks must also be
sealed (the only guarantees that you can give about concrete are 1 it
will crack, and 2 no one's going to steal it).
robo hippy

Depending on your shop you can fir out a vapor barrier wall far enough away
from the existing wall to allow for circulation behind it. Vent the
circualtion space behind back to the outdoors. Rigid foam board would be a
better suited sheathing and pressure treated wood for anything contacting
stone. Definately button up the window as recommended earlier. If you have
water problems as well I have seen this treatment taken one step farther and
actually trenched and tiled around the inside perimeter of the wall and an
after construction sump well dug. This was all done in a weekend by 2 people
with no 'hoes involved. Turned a dungeon into a decent living space.
Also of note IMLTHO the person that thinks that the air leaks help keep the
basement dry is wrong. One of your problems is going to be colder air
movement migrating in to a warmer space (yes even in sunny california). This
is going to create condensation and compound your rusting problem.

Knothead

Knothead wrote:

Depending on your shop you can fir out a vapor barrier wall far enough
away from the existing wall to allow for circulation behind it. Vent the
circualtion space behind back to the outdoors. Rigid foam board would be a
better suited sheathing and pressure treated wood for anything contacting
stone. Definately button up the window as recommended earlier. If you have
water problems as well I have seen this treatment taken one step farther
and actually trenched and tiled around the inside perimeter of the wall
and an after construction sump well dug. This was all done in a weekend by
2 people with no 'hoes involved. Turned a dungeon into a decent living
space. Also of note IMLTHO the person that thinks that the air leaks help
keep the basement dry is wrong. One of your problems is going to be colder
air movement migrating in to a warmer space (yes even in sunny
california). This is going to create condensation and compound your
rusting problem.

By what process is this going to create condensation? Condensation occurs
when warm air is cooled, not when cool air is warmed.

Knothead

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

WHen I moved into my house (built 1909 in Michigan) a couple of years
ago the previous owner left the basement a swamp. Here's some of the
things I did to help fix the problem.

Reattached the gutter spouts to spill the water about 4 feet from the
walls.

Added dirt near the walls to create a slope away from the walls.

Covered the water pipes with insulation to stop them from sweating.

Filled in some wall cracks with hydraulic cement.

My driveway runs up against the side of the house, so I sealed the
driveway to house seam with tar.

Sealed up door leading to outside against rain.

Added a dehumidifier. The first month or so I had it, it ran almost
continuously. The electric bill was really high and I was somewhat
worried. It took over a month to finally dry out the walls and floors
and now the dehumidifier hardly runs and my tools stay shiny.


On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:57:08 +0200, Thor Legvold
wrote:

I've Google'd and read through most of what has been written on the
subject of controlling basement humidity. Before I run out and buy a
dehumidifier and/or plug in a heater or two, I had a question.

My house (brick & morter) was built in 1914 or thereabout. The walls of
the basement are not provided with a plastic barrier and modern
drainage system, nor do we plan on having it done. The current "fix" is
that all the basement windows are unfinshed - they are mounted and
shimmed, but with no moldings or isolation. Air circulates freely
around the frames and through the basement.

I'm wondering if a dehumidifier is going to have any effect when it's
basically working against nature, as the air in the basement is the
same as the ambient air outside (more or less). I have a nice little
workshop set up, have painted the floors and got ok lighting, but my
tools are rusting! Slowly but surely they are getting small spots and
rust areas, even the Lie-Nielsen planes I ordered last year. I've moved
them into the house, but I obviously cannot put all the tools inside,
no room for that.

Can anyone shed some light of possible solutions to the described situation?

Best regards,
Thor