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Why plywood?
I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite |
"Dan White" wrote in message ... As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? Plywood is more practical in that it does not have the problems associated with wood movement that solid wood does. If today's plywood was available a couple of centuries ago, I have to wonder if the old masters would have used it. I also have to wonder about the quality of wood from the old growth trees from many years ago compared to what is available today. Of course, there was a lot of cheaper furniture made that did not survive the centuries either because of inferior material or inferior workmanship. |
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. .. "Dan White" wrote in message ... As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? Plywood is more practical in that it does not have the problems associated with wood movement that solid wood does. If today's plywood was available a couple of centuries ago, I have to wonder if the old masters would have used it. I also have to wonder about the quality of wood from the old growth trees from many years ago compared to what is available today. Of course, there was a lot of cheaper furniture made that did not survive the centuries either because of inferior material or inferior workmanship. I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that furniture made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the "real thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture. Again, just a layman's view. dwhite |
Dan White wrote:
I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? Read up on Eames chairs. You will find that they are generally considered by people who are into that sort of thing and whose style they suit to be highly desirable pieces of furniture. Mine's over 40 years old and still looks new. Now, look at the design and tell me how you would implement that in anything _but_ plywood and have the same result. From an engineering viewpoint, plywood is a material with certain properties. When designing a piece of furniture sometimes those properties suit it better than anything else for a particular component. In those cases it should be used. Now, with regard to your question about "high end stuff", veneer is often used on expensive furniture because it is very difficult to achieve some effects any other way--try to get a diamond match on a tabletop for example without having weak corners. As a substrate for veneer plywood is excellent--better than solid wood because it does not move nearly as much in service and so does not stress the veneer or the bond. Now, with regard to Phyfe and Lannuier, Phyfe died in 1854 and Lannuier in 1819, but commercial plywood as we know it first went into production in 1905, so they certainly did not use the kind of plywood we buy from lumberyards. Whether they made their own I have no idea. thanks, dwhite -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
"Dan White" wrote in message
... I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and dimensionally stable is desirable. If you want to take it to an extreme, I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I consider to be high end. todd |
Todd Fatheree wrote:
"Dan White" wrote in message ... I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and dimensionally stable is desirable. The trouble with ply as a tabletop is twofold. First you have to edge it with something and that something is going to be visible and affect the design. Second, unless it's made from all hardwood plies it's going to ding easily even through the veneer. A panel in a door where the edges are concealed by the rail and stile would IMO be a more appropriate use. If you want to take it to an extreme, I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I consider to be high end. todd -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:36:10 -0400, "Dan White"
wrote: I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? I've helped a number of folks move very expensive, high-end antiques, and many of them had nasty looking unsanded barn clapboards on the back, with beautiful facades achieved with veneer. My guess would be that many of those old masters would have loved to have plywood to nail onto the back and to use as a substrate if they would have had that option. If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? I would, but that may be due to my skill level and lack of complete understanding of how solid wood is going to behave when the humidity changes. thanks, dwhite Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
Dan White says...
If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? The answer is definitely yes in some cases. For the back panel of a bookcase for example, why use anything else? Plywood wins in every category in an application like that. It's stable, and that is a very important thing for a large panel. It stands a better chance of keeping its shape over the long haul. You don't have to engineer in tricks to allow for expansion and contraction. It provides a surface of uniform color and grain. Have you ever seen walnut plywood? It is absolutely gorgeous. Color and grain matching of large areas with solid wood is an exercise in futility for the most part. Show me one case where money and supply are not factors. Where are you going to find enough ebony to make a banquet table? No matter how high-end the product, cost is always a factor. If it wasn't, then it would be art, not craftsmanship, and only one of anything would be made. DaVinci only produced one Mona Lisa, but Stradivari made over 1,100 musical instruments. Are you beginning to see the difference? If high end was the same thing as money being no object, then every piece of high end woodwork should be covered with carvings, inlays and marquetry. But who is going to pay for that? Nobody I know, not even most millionaires. Like anything else, high end is a relative thing. Some woods are unique, like if it has curly figure, and a veneer over plywood not only means it will cover more area, but you can bookmatch pieces for an even better effect. If the wood isn't very strong or stable, and some figured wood is not, then you get the strength and stability of plywood to go with the look of the wood. Plywood is high end compared to particle board and MDF, and really cheap furniture seldom contains plywood. But it isn't even particle board or MDF that is the biggest problem with most cheap furniture, it is the design and how it is used. You can buy a home entertainment center at Wal-Mart for $100 that will sag if you use it as advertised, but I could make one out of MDF that would keep its shape, because I would use thicker material and support it where it was needed. |
"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". Does "high end" mean "high dollar"? If so, a perusal of http://www.wonderwood.nl/plywood/ should put some all plywood pieces in the running. A master uses whatever material is appropriate. Being that there are damn few masters hereabouts, I suspect most responses against plywood in fine furniture are based on a preconceived prejudice. Besides, tell that to DJM as he applies quilted veneer to a substrate of plwood for a piece of what is inarguably "high end" furniture. If you want to take it to an extreme, I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". Sounds like the music business... those that can, do; those that can't, teach others to do what they can't make a living at themselves. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/17/05 |
Dan White wrote:
I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). There are quite a few designs which can really only be achieved in plywood (or other stable sheet good), and modern furniture designs have used the properties of plywood to make new designs. Now 'round this group, people lean towards traditional designs, all of which were designed to account for wood movement. Many of our 'pretty' designs, such as frame-and-panel, are compromises to account for wood movement. But if you open your horizons some, you will see lots of things where plywood is not a substitute for solid wood but instead a material all its own. PK |
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On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree"
wrote: IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and dimensionally stable is desirable. If you want to take it to an extreme, I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I consider to be high end. todd Made a dining room table once that had an elliptical top about eight feet in the longest dimension and 42" measured at a 90 to the long C/L. Used 3/4" thk Appleply with bandsawn 5/16" thk flame figured Circassian Walnut, cut from a slab that was 4" thk, glued to the substrate. The "veneer" met a rabbeted apron on the perimeter that included a 1/4" wide inlay of holly. This "plywood job" was pretty high end, I'm thinking, as the folks paid $12,000.00 for the table. Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) |
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:36:10 -0400, "Dan White"
wrote: I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite Ply is used for many things: drawer bottoms, carcass backs, etc. Cabinet-grade ply is not cheap. Most of my projects do not use plywood, but I don't rule it out either. Ply is more stable than soild wood. |
"Tom Watson" wrote in message
... On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and dimensionally stable is desirable. If you want to take it to an extreme, I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I consider to be high end. todd Made a dining room table once that had an elliptical top about eight feet in the longest dimension and 42" measured at a 90 to the long C/L. That would be the major and minor axes. Used 3/4" thk Appleply with bandsawn 5/16" thk flame figured Circassian Walnut, cut from a slab that was 4" thk, glued to the substrate. The "veneer" met a rabbeted apron on the perimeter that included a 1/4" wide inlay of holly. This "plywood job" was pretty high end, I'm thinking, as the folks paid $12,000.00 for the table. Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind between "high end" and "expensive". There are certainly projects where plywood makes things infinitely easier. todd |
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:36:18 -0400, Paul Kierstead
wrote: But if you open your horizons some, you will see lots of things where plywood is not a substitute for solid wood but instead a material all its own. Bingo!! Just because the letters w.o.o.d. appear in the name, doesn't mean it's the same thing, or should be treated as such. (See also: electric guitar vs acoustic guitar...) Lee |
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree"
wrote: As I suspected, there's a difference in my mindsnip o' crap "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it’s done, they’ve seen it done every day, but they’re unable to do it." - Playwright Brendan Behan (1923-1964) Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) |
"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
... Dan White wrote: I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). There are quite a few designs which can really only be achieved in plywood (or other stable sheet good), and modern furniture designs have used the properties of plywood to make new designs. Now 'round this group, people lean towards traditional designs, all of which were designed to account for wood movement. Many of our 'pretty' designs, such as frame-and-panel, are compromises to account for wood movement. But if you open your horizons some, you will see lots of things where plywood is not a substitute for solid wood but instead a material all its own. PK So it sounds like modern quality furniture does incorporate plywood here and there as needed. Maybe traditional furniture with plywood backing and frame and panel elsewhere is a good blend of the two materials. Thanks for the interesting responses, dwhite |
"Tom Watson" wrote in message
... On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: As I suspected, there's a difference in my mindsnip o' crap "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it." - Playwright Brendan Behan (1923-1964) Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) "When you can't think of something intelligent to say, quoting a dead guy is always a fallback position." - Todd Fatheree By the way, if you were to exercise some English comprehension, I didn't even criticize your work, nor say that I could duplicate it. So it doesn't fall into a particular category, according only to me. No reason to get your undies in a bunch. If the definition of "high end" in your book is for it to be reasonably hard to produce and expensive, you're entitled to that opinion. No reason to go on the attack just because not everyone agrees with you. todd |
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:14:55 -0500, "Todd Fatheree"
wrote: "Tom Watson" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: As I suspected, there's a difference in my mindsnip o' crap "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it." - Playwright Brendan Behan (1923-1964) Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) "When you can't think of something intelligent to say, quoting a dead guy is always a fallback position." - Todd Fatheree By the way, if you were to exercise some English comprehension, I didn't even criticize your work, nor say that I could duplicate it. So it doesn't fall into a particular category, according only to me. No reason to get your undies in a bunch. If the definition of "high end" in your book is for it to be reasonably hard to produce and expensive, you're entitled to that opinion. No reason to go on the attack just because not everyone agrees with you. todd Ah hell, I just like Brendan Behan. |
I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that
furniture made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the "real thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture. You know, I feel the same way about veneer. I know that a lot of fine furniture builders have used veneers, but I still think it looks cheap. Dick Durbin |
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree"
wrote: "Tom Watson" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". And who would know better than you? But then,my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. Do tell. For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and dimensionally stable is desirable. And yet, when I presented you with exactly that situation, you chose to nullify my experience, through some feat of mental gymnastics that I am not privy to. If you want to take it to an extreme,I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago sigh... and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". This is damned interesting to me. I have a MA in philosophy and I have never been able to be sure that I have a soul, let alone delving into the possibility that wood that is cut thick has a soul, while wood that is cut thin has none. Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I consider to be high end. And your definition of "High End" is what? todd Made a dining room table once that had an elliptical top about eight feet in the longest dimension and 42" measured at a 90 to the long C/L. That would be the major and minor axes. Used 3/4" thk Appleply with bandsawn 5/16" thk flame figured Circassian Walnut, cut from a slab that was 4" thk, glued to the substrate. The "veneer" met a rabbeted apron on the perimeter that included a 1/4" wide inlay of holly. This "plywood job" was pretty high end, I'm thinking, as the folks paid $12,000.00 for the table. Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind between "high end" and "expensive". This doesn't sound snotty to you? There are certainly projects where plywood makes things infinitely easier. No ****? todd Dude: Stay in Chicago. You don't know dick and the Pizza in Philly is more than you can handle. Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) |
"Tom Watson" wrote in message
... On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: "Tom Watson" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". And who would know better than you? Why, the all-knowing Tom Watson, of course. But then,my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. Do tell. I did. So did a lot of other people. But when you're all-knowing like you, you can just discount all that. For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and dimensionally stable is desirable. And yet, when I presented you with exactly that situation, you chose to nullify my experience, through some feat of mental gymnastics that I am not privy to. What about your experience did I nullify? I asked how many make fine quality table tops from plywood. So far as I can tell, you're the only one who said they have. Fine. That's one vote for "plywood is an excellent choice for high quality tables". If you want to take it to an extreme,I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago sigh... Ah. More arrogance. Obviously, if someone took a class, they don't know anything. and the head of the operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul". This is damned interesting to me. I have a MA in philosophy and I have never been able to be sure that I have a soul, let alone delving into the possibility that wood that is cut thick has a soul, while wood that is cut thin has none. Well, as I said, that was the opinion of a very well-respected and very long-time woodworker who runs the apprenticeship program at Chicago Bauhaus, not mine. But in my mind, there's a little bit of difference between a solid piece of wood and a bunch of thin pieces of wood pressed together with formaldehyde glue in a factory. And if you've read any of the other posts, you'll find I'm not alone in this thinking. Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I consider to be high end. And your definition of "High End" is what? Well, there's a certain je ne sais quoi when trying to fully define it, but it doesn't include sheet goods. Or are you the only person in the universe capable of making that determination? As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind between "high end" and "expensive". This doesn't sound snotty to you? No more than you sound like an ass. There are certainly projects where plywood makes things infinitely easier. No ****? Seriously. Kitchen cabinets come to mind. todd Dude: Stay in Chicago. You don't know dick and the Pizza in Philly is more than you can handle. Hey, when you run out of clever things to say, just call someone a dick. It really bolsters your argument. I'm not sure how pizza figures into this. Why don't you just stick to cheesesteak and leave the real pizza to the pros? Make sure to be safe in the shop too. Climbing down off that high horse can be dangerous. Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website) todd |
"Olebiker" wrote in message
oups.com... I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that furniture made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the "real thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture. You know, I feel the same way about veneer. I know that a lot of fine furniture builders have used veneers, but I still think it looks cheap. Dick Durbin Whoa, there, Dick. Better be prepared to be called either stupid or untalented by Mr. Watson for a remark like that. He might even bust out his book of quotes on you. todd |
If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end
stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? I'm sorry that this has devolved into a pi$$ing contest. Much of the output of the alumni (and faculty, for that matter) of the College of the Redwoods over the past decade or so has used veneer, generally shop cut, over whatever substrates made the most sense for the project. Often, that was a process very similar to that described by Mr. Watson. Note also the Scandinavian master designers of the mid-twentieth century. And Jere Osgood, who has a piece or three in the world's better museums 'Quality' is well executed material and design, whatever material that may turn out to be. Patriarch, who knows a few great wooddorkers, and admires them, more than he can emulate their craft... |
Aw look, it had a liddle tantwum.
|
A woman with breast implants, a little makeup, and a nice outfit isn't
the real thing either but it sure is nice. |
Tom Watson wrote:
Aw look, it had a liddle tantwum. Jeeze, Watson, you sure get your panties in a bunch when someone dares to disagree with you! The nerve of some people, to not recognize your obvious superiority in all things! Call you wrong, or say your work is anything but high-class, and the erudite one resorts to grade school name calling! LOL I'm sure you had a logic/argumentation class in your legendary academic career, (which you seldom fail to mention), right? Then you of course know what we think when you have nothing left but ad hominems... Fatheree OWNS Watson! What a tool. ( ObWW ) |
Dan White wrote: I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite Hi Dan, In my business our furniture is constructed out of the real deal. About the only place we'll use plywood is in the backs of large dressers or the base of a china cabinet where it won't be seen...basically only to lighten the load. There is no shortage of lumber for me, though. I think a lot of "high end" furniture companies use plywood simply because they can. Most of their customers can't tell the difference anyway. I have people come into our store all the time and expect to custom order a piece at wal-mart prices and gawk at the price tags. Of course there those who appreciate quality and can't believe how inexpensive the stuff is....those are the guys in to buy lumber to build their own. Jana |
In article 36,
Patriarch wrote: If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? I'm sorry that this has devolved into a pi$$ing contest. Much of the output of the alumni (and faculty, for that matter) of the College of the Redwoods over the past decade or so has used veneer, generally shop cut, over whatever substrates made the most sense for the project. Often, that was a process very similar to that described by Mr. Watson. Note also the Scandinavian master designers of the mid-twentieth century. And Jere Osgood, who has a piece or three in the world's better museums 'Quality' is well executed material and design, whatever material that may turn out to be. Patriarch, who knows a few great wooddorkers, and admires them, more than he can emulate their craft... While not exactly made from plywood (these are first bended, then glued up) Alvar Aalto designed several chairs that were quite high end in 1920's and 1930's and even designed and made for invidual orders. Here is a link to a web page with images: http://www.alvaraalto.fi/alvar/design/chair/english.htm I think that especially the chair in top right corner is pretty qood example what can be made from plywood and still be considerrerd of being of very good quality. These chairs are still pretty expensive today, despite of being mass produced. I don't think that these are high end anymore cos of mass production but I like them very much. Artek web pages have links where his furniture is used, see http://www.artek.fi seismo malm (from finland) |
Seismo Malm wrote in
.jyu.fi: snip While not exactly made from plywood (these are first bended, then glued up) Alvar Aalto designed several chairs that were quite high end in 1920's and 1930's and even designed and made for invidual orders. Here is a link to a web page with images: http://www.alvaraalto.fi/alvar/design/chair/english.htm I think that especially the chair in top right corner is pretty qood example what can be made from plywood and still be considerrerd of being of very good quality. These chairs are still pretty expensive today, despite of being mass produced. I don't think that these are high end anymore cos of mass production but I like them very much. Artek web pages have links where his furniture is used, see http://www.artek.fi seismo malm (from finland) An interesting contention: That high-end furniture cannot be simultaneously mass produced. The contention is that exclusivity is inherent in the 'quality' of the product, and replication, with no other changes, somehow reduces the appropriateness of the design. I contend that it only changes the price, and thereby, the accessibility. My best respects to the Finns, who, having relatively scarce physical resources, and being few in number, have determined to, and largely succeeded at, exporting intelligent, thoughtful design in selected products, and done well thereby. Patriarch |
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:43:06 +0800, Old Nick
wrote: In article 1114605127.94f653f77d6cf7ae9b5e740935dabbc9@teran ews, says... Aw look, it had a liddle tantwum. By email to me, because hero watson was too gutless to expose his basic tantwumishness.... "My name is Tom Watson. I live at xxx yyyy stweet somewhere. I am a big nasty ******* and you have just disagweed with me. Come over and I'll belt the cwap out of you, if you weally feel that you have a point I disagwee wit." At the time I publicly assumed that Tom Rotson was man enough to be an arsehole in all the viewers' view, thus tarnishing his hewo status, and the email was simply a nasty joke by other parties, but maybe not quite. Now why don't you tell the nice people what really happened? You posted the following: Old Nick Aug 9 2004, 7:18 pm Newsgroups: rec.woodworking From: Old Nick Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:18:10 +0800 On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:21:42 -0400, Tom Watson vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: ****! Go away and fish.....come back and ****ing troll! Wot a jerk! Why don't ya go an fall in that ****n lake Watson and stop complaining! Geez! So I emailed the silly git my address and phone number and told him to stop and see me sometime. He's been whining about it ever since. |
wrote in message
ups.com... Dan White wrote: I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite Hi Dan, In my business our furniture is constructed out of the real deal. About the only place we'll use plywood is in the backs of large dressers or the base of a china cabinet where it won't be seen...basically only to lighten the load. There is no shortage of lumber for me, though. I think a lot of "high end" furniture companies use plywood simply because they can. Most of their customers can't tell the difference anyway. I have people come into our store all the time and expect to custom order a piece at wal-mart prices and gawk at the price tags. Of course there those who appreciate quality and can't believe how inexpensive the stuff is....those are the guys in to buy lumber to build their own. Jana Out of curiosity, what are the most popular types of wood for furniture that you produce? dwhite |
Olebiker wrote:
:I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that : furniture : made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the : "real : thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture. : You know, I feel the same way about veneer. I know that a lot of fine : furniture builders have used veneers, but I still think it looks cheap. Have a look at Ruhlmann's furniture from the 20s-30s. Cheap it ain't (on any construal of the word). - Andy barss |
Dan White wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Dan White wrote: I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and stability of the wood? If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer? thanks, dwhite Hi Dan, In my business our furniture is constructed out of the real deal. About the only place we'll use plywood is in the backs of large dressers or the base of a china cabinet where it won't be seen...basically only to lighten the load. There is no shortage of lumber for me, though. I think a lot of "high end" furniture companies use plywood simply because they can. Most of their customers can't tell the difference anyway. I have people come into our store all the time and expect to custom order a piece at wal-mart prices and gawk at the price tags. Of course there those who appreciate quality and can't believe how inexpensive the stuff is....those are the guys in to buy lumber to build their own. Jana Out of curiosity, what are the most popular types of wood for furniture that you produce? dwhite Hi Dan, It depends a little on how you look at it. For locals (IA or MN) who cusom order furniture, it would be plain sawn red oak, of course. For either coast, it's qs white oak, hickory, or cherry, and maple is starting to pick up again quite a bit. In the showroom we have furniture built out of about every species we cut. The main reason for that is that it gives people an idea of what different flavors are available for flooring, etc...I'd have to say that about 8 out of 10 people who come in looking for red oak flooring end up choosing something different. I'm not a huge fan of red oak, though, so I have a tendancy to talk people into other species and on more than one occasion..a mix of 'em all. Jana |
Have a look at Ruhlmann's furniture from the 20s-30s. Cheap it ain't
(on any construal of the word). While I am a big fan of Ruhlmann's designs (you do realize that he built nothing himself) his use of veneer is as tacky as Pamela Anderson's store-bought bosom. Dick Durbin |
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