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#1
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220v Plug End Replacement for Equipment
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to
be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. As an example, I am going to install a 30amp 220 receptacle that will be used by my finishing (sanding) machine, current air compressor, and the replacement larger air compressor which have different plug end configurations. Since I really like the ideal of the solid connection the twist lock style receptacles provide for the equipment, I will have to change the plug ends or complete power cords on all of my equipment. To my knowledge IIRC, all of the woodworking equipment runs strictly on 250v (3-wire confirguration) as compared to appliances that can run on 125/250v (4-wire configuration) such as a range. Even so, I would figured that going with the 4 wire receptacles gives me the most flexibility in case a piece of equipment does use 125/250v that I am not thinking of now. Wiring from the panel to the receptacle box was done with 10/3 for the 20-30amp connections and 6/3 for my 40-50amp connection. When I replace the plug ends to match the 4-wire receptacles, if the original plug end was three prong (2 live and a ground), I obviously will only be able to wire the 4 wire twist lock plug with the 3 existing wires from the equipment power cord. Will there be a problem with the Neutral connection not being wired on the plug side even though it is wired from the panel to the receptacle. It should be noted that I am running these connections from a subpanel where the ground and neutral wire bars are separated. The goal if possible is to use the same type receptacles on all outlets around the shop to allow for maximum flexibility in re-arranging the shop based on future needs and uses. Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated. David |
#2
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"DL" wrote in
news:2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. snip Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated. Caveat #1: I am not a registered or licensed electrician, although I did consult one. Caveat #2: I know it is stupid to respond to a wReck discussion of electricity, due of the risk of involvement in discussions in which others are or claim to be more expert. Caveat #3: You asked an opinion, and I have one to offer. Caveat #4: I have a hobby shop, not subject to local government or insurance regulatory safety inspection. My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. I use this to do as the Safety Saint earlier described, to have a visible and controllable means of making CERTAIN that power is disconnected, before I put body parts into the innards of a machine which can damage said parts. Such pigtails are disconnected when the shop is closed down, or I'm finished with the use of the machine for that session. Even with 110V, on the cutting tools. Patriarch |
#3
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In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on the tools that I have. As an example, I am going to install a 30amp 220 receptacle that will be used by my finishing (sanding) machine, current air compressor, and the replacement larger air compressor which have different plug end configurations. Since I really like the ideal of the solid connection the twist lock style receptacles provide for the equipment, I will have to change the plug ends or complete power cords on all of my equipment. IMO, the twist-lock plugs are not really necessary. In fact, a twist-lock plug that is *not* fully twisted and locked is much *more* likely to fall out of its socket than is a standard plug. I've never observed any of my standard plugs to come out of their receptacles unexpectedly. To my knowledge IIRC, all of the woodworking equipment runs strictly on 250v (3-wire confirguration) as compared to appliances that can run on 125/250v (4-wire configuration) such as a range. Even so, I would figured that going with the 4 wire receptacles gives me the most flexibility in case a piece of equipment does use 125/250v that I am not thinking of now. Wiring from the panel to the receptacle box was done with 10/3 for the 20-30amp connections and 6/3 for my 40-50amp connection. Entirely correct. However, it's flexibility that you don't need, and, if it's not done correctly, there is a potential hazard. If you're going to do this - and I wouldn't - you MUST use receptacles and plugs that are rated for the HIGHEST amperage circuit in the shop. To do otherwise would make it possible to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only 20A, on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A. And, of course, every time you buy a new piece of gear, you're going to have to change the plug on it. What happens if you, sometime later, buy a piece of equipment with a higher amperage rating than anything you have now - and higher than anything you have a receptacle rated for? You'll need to install a new receptacle with the correct rating, and, perforce, a different configuration. And then your interchangeability is out the window, unless you replace all your plugs. When I replace the plug ends to match the 4-wire receptacles, if the original plug end was three prong (2 live and a ground), I obviously will only be able to wire the 4 wire twist lock plug with the 3 existing wires from the equipment power cord. Will there be a problem with the Neutral connection not being wired on the plug side even though it is wired from the panel to the receptacle. It should be noted that I am running these connections from a subpanel where the ground and neutral wire bars are separated. That will be no problem at all. If the equipment doesn't need the neutral, it doesn't need it. And if it does, it's there. However, I think this is completely unnecessary. Not to say they don't exist, of course, but I haven't yet seen a piece of woodworking equipment that has both 120V and 240V loads, and it's hard for me to imagine one that would. On a range or a dryer, the neutral is needed because the heating elements are 240V, but the lights, timer, etc. are 120V. The electrical components of woodworking tools typically consist of a motor and a switch. A 240V motor has no need of a neutral. The goal if possible is to use the same type receptacles on all outlets around the shop to allow for maximum flexibility in re-arranging the shop based on future needs and uses. Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated. I wouldn't do it. To sum up: - unnecessary expense and effort to replace multiple plugs - twist-locks are not needed (another unnecessary expense) - risk of fire if amp rating of receptacles not matched correctly to tools - no need for neutral on 240V tools (more unnecessary expense) -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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In article , Patriarch wrote:
My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like plugging a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine. If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#5
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"Patriarch" wrote in message .136... "DL" wrote in news:2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. snip Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated. Caveat #1: I am not a registered or licensed electrician, although I did consult one. Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. Caveat #2: I know it is stupid to respond to a wReck discussion of electricity, due of the risk of involvement in discussions in which others are or claim to be more expert. Well, I like to see responses from all so that I can make my own decision as to what will work best for me. Ultimately, in my case, the final word comes from the county inspection office as to what they will approve. Caveat #3: You asked an opinion, and I have one to offer. Thanks for responding with your opinion. Caveat #4: I have a hobby shop, not subject to local government or insurance regulatory safety inspection. Not sure where you live or the jurisdiction rules, but any place I have ever lived required inspections for wiring changes / additions for anything more that changing a switch/plug or adding a fixture to an existing box, hobby shop or not. I do agree that changing the plug ends is not something that would require inspection by a county inspector, but wiring the receptacle and the wires that run back to the subpanel do require approval from the county inspector where I live. My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. I use this to do as the Safety Saint earlier described, to have a visible and controllable means of making CERTAIN that power is disconnected, before I put body parts into the innards of a machine which can damage said parts. Such pigtails are disconnected when the shop is closed down, or I'm finished with the use of the machine for that session. Even with 110V, on the cutting tools. I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail" connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords? Patriarch I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail" connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire the ends of the equipment plug ends? |
#6
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Patriarch wrote:
"DL" wrote in news:2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. snip Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated. Caveat #1: I am not a registered or licensed electrician, although I did consult one. Caveat #2: I know it is stupid to respond to a wReck discussion of electricity, due of the risk of involvement in discussions in which others are or claim to be more expert. Caveat #3: You asked an opinion, and I have one to offer. Caveat #4: I have a hobby shop, not subject to local government or insurance regulatory safety inspection. My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. I use this to do as the Safety Saint earlier described, to have a visible and controllable means of making CERTAIN that power is disconnected, before I put body parts into the innards of a machine which can damage said parts. Such pigtails are disconnected when the shop is closed down, or I'm finished with the use of the machine for that session. Even with 110V, on the cutting tools. Patriarch Love the caveat, and the pigtails idea. Both are great ideas. Used the pigtails before in boating to match shore power... Some good things _do_ come from California -- see? :-) -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
#7
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In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:
Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A should be plenty. Just for reference, my shop contains the following: - table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all 240V) - band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill press, mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable tools (all 120V) SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have two of us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust collector and air filter in operation simultaneously. And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A feed. That subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove (240V). [snip] I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail" connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords? He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching the receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure of money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As long as the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit, for example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#8
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"DL" wrote in message news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01... snip Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. snip 400amp service? Are you running an aluminum smelter? |
#9
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Doug Miller wrote:
As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like plugging a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine. If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard. Why? Wouldn't the 20A circuit have a 20A breaker, which would trip due to the 30A load? You say "Doh!", reset the breaker, and plug it into the correct outlet and go on... -j |
#10
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In article , Joe User wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like plugging a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine. If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard. Why? Wouldn't the 20A circuit have a 20A breaker, which would trip due to the 30A load? You say "Doh!", reset the breaker, and plug it into the correct outlet and go on... One *hopes* the 20A circuit has a 20A breaker, anyway... I should have stressed the importance of making sure that the ratings of the breaker, the wire, and the receptacle all match. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#11
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"DL" wrote in
news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01: snip I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Think 'short extension cord', external to the building wiring. All of the 240v circuits were 30A, installed, by a licensed, bonded, insured electrical professional. Who installed a subpanel, with lockable master lockout switch. Sorry if my inaccurate, or irregular use of the language caused confusion. It was not my intent. Patriarch |
#12
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#13
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DJ Delorie wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes: Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A should be plenty. Just FYI we got the "default" 200A service, even when the engineer from the power company recommended 300 or 400 amp (because of the woodshop). 200A service does NOT mean you can comfortably draw 200A! Our "200 amp" service included a private transformer (long driveway) that was only rated at 40 amps continuous. 40A continuous at what voltage? Each time the central air kicked in, the 123 amp surge (30 amps after that) caused brownouts and eventually motor failure in the AC. After replacing the AC unit and a number of tests and tweaks by the power company, they ended up replacing the 40A transformer with a 100A transformer - which is what they usually use for an entire neighborhood. So, switching to 400A service means more than just needing 400A. It also means a bigger transformer, thicker wires, etc - all leading to cleaner power during surges, less brownouts, and less chance of burning out your motors. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#14
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Joe User wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like plugging a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine. If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard. Why? Wouldn't the 20A circuit have a 20A breaker, which would trip due to the 30A load? You say "Doh!", reset the breaker, and plug it into the correct outlet and go on... If it's a breaker and not a fuse. If nobody has stuck a slug under a burnt-out fuse, if the breaker is in fact working properly. Lot of ifs there. Breakers and fuses are backup--they are there for when something goes wrong. Depending on them instead of proper procedures is dangerous. -j -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#15
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A should be plenty. I have spoken with a certified electrician, the electric company, and the county inspector on upgrading my main service to 400amps from 200amps and all agree that it should be done. The service upgrade is for the entire 5000+ square foot home. The current 200amp service panel is completely maxed out. I am in the process of finishing a 1500 square foot basement of which around 500 square feet are dedicated to the workshop. I have a full bath and media and other rooms, connections to the garage that need power circuits which justify the additional service upgrade. Having lived in homes that are under wired, the cost difference to get what will meet my needs now and in the future is well worth the minimal increase in cost for the heavier wire, breakers, and panels. For the workshop specifically I am installing a subpanel with a 100amp circuit from the main panel to cover my needs in the workshop. Given I have a rotary phase converter that requires a 70-80amp breaker alone, along with the other 30 and 50amp circuits I will be running, I don't think this is too outrageous. To me, it is a lot cheaper to go on the high side now than to have to redo wiring later once the walls are closed in. Just for reference, my shop contains the following: - table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all 240V) - band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill press, mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable tools (all 120V) SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have two of us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust collector and air filter in operation simultaneously. And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A feed. That subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove (240V). [snip] I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail" connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords? He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching the receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure of money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As long as the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit, for example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#16
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"TaskMule" wrote in message ... "DL" wrote in message news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01... snip Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. snip 400amp service? Are you running an aluminum smelter? See my response to Doug. |
#17
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message ... In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on the tools that I have. Sounds like you dont move your equipment around much. I do based on space limitations. While a good portion of the circuits will be dedicated to specific equipment and I can match the receptacle to plug, some outlets are being installed with the expectation that several pieces of equipment will be used on them. Just as one would wire 20amp 110v circuits instead of 15amp to be able to power all 20amp and below 110v equipment, I plan to do the same with my 240v equipment. The rub comes in with the 240v receptacles and plugs is that they have different blade configurations depending on whether or not they are a 15amp, 20amp, or 30amp and beyond pieces of equipment. I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps). Given that most of the equipment runs on either 125v or 250v, I will have to replace the power cords anyway. This will allow me to go to a common plug and receptacle that gives me the flexibility to move my equipment around. As an example, I am going to install a 30amp 220 receptacle that will be used by my finishing (sanding) machine, current air compressor, and the replacement larger air compressor which have different plug end configurations. Since I really like the ideal of the solid connection the twist lock style receptacles provide for the equipment, I will have to change the plug ends or complete power cords on all of my equipment. IMO, the twist-lock plugs are not really necessary. In fact, a twist-lock plug that is *not* fully twisted and locked is much *more* likely to fall out of its socket than is a standard plug. I've never observed any of my standard plugs to come out of their receptacles unexpectedly. This is good input and why I asked the question originally. They are on the pricey side, but I wouldn't mide the expense if they were a better connection. Doesn't seem from your input that they are worth the extra expense. To my knowledge IIRC, all of the woodworking equipment runs strictly on 250v (3-wire confirguration) as compared to appliances that can run on 125/250v (4-wire configuration) such as a range. Even so, I would figured that going with the 4 wire receptacles gives me the most flexibility in case a piece of equipment does use 125/250v that I am not thinking of now. Wiring from the panel to the receptacle box was done with 10/3 for the 20-30amp connections and 6/3 for my 40-50amp connection. Entirely correct. However, it's flexibility that you don't need, and, if it's not done correctly, there is a potential hazard. If you're going to do this - and I wouldn't - you MUST use receptacles and plugs that are rated for the HIGHEST amperage circuit in the shop. To do otherwise would make it possible to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only 20A, on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A. My clarfication of what types of circuits I am installing on what type of wire above covers this. And, of course, every time you buy a new piece of gear, you're going to have to change the plug on it. Depending on the type of recpeptacle I decide is my standard, I might or might not have to make a change. Again, most of the 240v equipment I have purchased works on 120v and 240v, but they come wired for 120v. I would need to replace the cord anyway so the plug is a moot point then. The added time or cost for the plugs or cords is not that significant to me given the equipment generally runs in the just under $500 on the low end, so a $10 - $30 plug end or cord assembly doesn't seem to much to me. What happens if you, sometime later, buy a piece of equipment with a higher amperage rating than anything you have now - and higher than anything you have a receptacle rated for? You'll need to install a new receptacle with the correct rating, and, perforce, a different configuration. And then your interchangeability is out the window, unless you replace all your plugs. Based on what I have currently for equipment, the fact that I have am installing a centrally located 50amp circuit, and my planned purchases in the forseeable future, I will be covered. If I do need something higher, I will install a circuit for that at the time. The subpanel or main panel will have the space and capacity I need. When I replace the plug ends to match the 4-wire receptacles, if the original plug end was three prong (2 live and a ground), I obviously will only be able to wire the 4 wire twist lock plug with the 3 existing wires from the equipment power cord. Will there be a problem with the Neutral connection not being wired on the plug side even though it is wired from the panel to the receptacle. It should be noted that I am running these connections from a subpanel where the ground and neutral wire bars are separated. That will be no problem at all. If the equipment doesn't need the neutral, it doesn't need it. And if it does, it's there. This is what I thought, but wanted to be sure. However, I think this is completely unnecessary. Not to say they don't exist, of course, but I haven't yet seen a piece of woodworking equipment that has both 120V and 240V loads, and it's hard for me to imagine one that would. On a range or a dryer, the neutral is needed because the heating elements are 240V, but the lights, timer, etc. are 120V. The electrical components of woodworking tools typically consist of a motor and a switch. A 240V motor has no need of a neutral. To me, it's cheap enough to run the 10/3 w/ ground and 6/3 w/ ground now so that in the event something does require it, I don't have to rerun circuits. I can always cap the neutral off in the receptacle box and install a receptacle that uses the 2 lives and the ground. The goal if possible is to use the same type receptacles on all outlets around the shop to allow for maximum flexibility in re-arranging the shop based on future needs and uses. Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated. I wouldn't do it. To sum up: - unnecessary expense and effort to replace multiple plugs - twist-locks are not needed (another unnecessary expense) - risk of fire if amp rating of receptacles not matched correctly to tools - no need for neutral on 240V tools (more unnecessary expense) -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? Thanks for your comments, David |
#18
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"Patriarch" wrote in message . 97.136... "DL" wrote in news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01: snip I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Think 'short extension cord', external to the building wiring. All of the 240v circuits were 30A, installed, by a licensed, bonded, insured electrical professional. Who installed a subpanel, with lockable master lockout switch. Sorry if my inaccurate, or irregular use of the language caused confusion. It was not my intent. Patriarch No problem, it's what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure. It is an interesting idea and I like the concept. Is there a reason you didn't want to just replace the entire cord to the machine or at a minimum just the plug end as I proposed? If you were going to use the equipment in areas that have different receptacles types, I think this is the best option. Given that I am trying to standardize on a receptacle type, it seems to me you are doing both sides when you would only need to do one. Did you want to leave the original power cord and plug end in tact for warranty purposes? Thanks, David |
#20
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DL wrote:
I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps). I think you should go ahead and put 30A and 50A rated sockets on the 30A and 50A circuits respectively. Chose twist-lock or not as you see fit. Then just put matching plugs on the equipment as needed. If there is no nuetral on the machine, you just leave that one unconnected in the plug. Make sure you have a good ground connection. All of this is safe and legal. Just don't put a 30A plug on a greater than 30A machine. The two different rated sockets/plugs will not physically fit into each other so as long as you don't put the wrong plug on a piece of equipment you will have no problem. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. |
#21
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"J. Clarke" writes: Our "200 amp" service included a private transformer (long driveway) that was only rated at 40 amps continuous. 40A continuous at what voltage? It doesn't matter if I use one branch (120v) or both (240v). It still causes the same heat and resistive losses in the transformer's coils. But the transformer was officially rated at 10 KVa, the new one is 25 KVa. They normally assume a balanced (i.e. 240v) load, since houses are supposed to be wired that way. But given that I was drawing 123 amps at 240v, that's kinda an irrelevent issue for me ;-) |
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In article bf9ae.4309$lz1.517@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on the tools that I have. Sounds like you dont move your equipment around much. I do based on space limitations. Almost all of it's on wheels. Some of it stays put, some of it moves every time I use it. And there are a *lot* of receptacles in the shop. :-) While a good portion of the circuits will be dedicated to specific equipment and I can match the receptacle to plug, some outlets are being installed with the expectation that several pieces of equipment will be used on them. Just as one would wire 20amp 110v circuits instead of 15amp to be able to power all 20amp and below 110v equipment, I plan to do the same with my 240v equipment. The rub comes in with the 240v receptacles and plugs is that they have different blade configurations depending on whether or not they are a 15amp, 20amp, or 30amp and beyond pieces of equipment. Right, but since you're presumably installing multiple receptacles *anyway*, it seems to be that it's a lot less trouble to install, say, six receptacles of three different configurations, than it is to install six receptacles of the same configuration, *and* change somewhere between one and five plugs on your machines. Less expense, too, because (a) receptacles are usually cheaper than plugs, and (b) n receptacles clearly cost less than (n receptacles + n plugs). I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps). Given that most of the equipment runs on either 125v or 250v, I will have to replace the power cords anyway. This will allow me to go to a common plug and receptacle that gives me the flexibility to move my equipment around. Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you here. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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In article , Wes Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:39:16 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: [snip] To do otherwise would make it possible to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only 20A, on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A. What's a 20A receptacle doing on a circuit fused at 30A? It has no business there, to be sure. But I've seen things like that often enough to have _no_ confidence in the proposition that they don't happen. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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DL wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to snip I did what you're proposing, and it works fine for me. I bought a 3hp Unisaw, 2hp Rockwell planer and 1.5hp General jointer, all at estate sales. Each had a different 240V plug. I put in a 30 amp breaker, 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp receptacle for this stuff. Eventually I'll probably put in more receptacles, but the jointer and planer tend to get moved each time I use them, so unplugging and plugging hasn't turned out to be too burdensome. The saw came with a 30A twist-lock plug, so I standardized the other machines to that. I'd probably look for a lower cost option if it wasn't for already having a twist-lock. The magnetic starters on the saw and jointer have overload protection built in and the planer has thermal protection on the motor. The jointer and planer could run on lower amp circuits, but, why bother putting in separate circuits just for them? I've also got a 50 amp receptacle, but it's just for the welder. I agree with others that running four wire circuits isn't necessary. If you decide to, just don't connect anything to the neutral wire lug in the plugs of 240V-only machines and you're fine. In fact, before putting in a sub-panel, I had been running a cheater-cord (aka pigtail) that had a range cord and plug on one end and the twist-lock receptacle on the other. I didn't need a neutral, so just cut that lug off the plug. Disclaimer: you need to do two things if you try this: 1) understand that your range circuit is probably 40A, making your 30A receptical illegal, and, 2) have speeddial set to a nice restraunt if SWMBO comes home finding her stove unplugged one too many times. Good luck, Tim |
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"DL" wrote in
news:Vp9ae.4312$lz1.1231@lakeread01: "Patriarch" wrote in message . 97.136... "DL" wrote in news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01: snip I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Think 'short extension cord', external to the building wiring. All of the 240v circuits were 30A, installed, by a licensed, bonded, insured electrical professional. Who installed a subpanel, with lockable master lockout switch. Sorry if my inaccurate, or irregular use of the language caused confusion. It was not my intent. Patriarch No problem, it's what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure. It is an interesting idea and I like the concept. Is there a reason you didn't want to just replace the entire cord to the machine or at a minimum just the plug end as I proposed? If you were going to use the equipment in areas that have different receptacles types, I think this is the best option. Given that I am trying to standardize on a receptacle type, it seems to me you are doing both sides when you would only need to do one. Did you want to leave the original power cord and plug end in tact for warranty purposes? I didn't want to cut into a brand new machine, if unneeded. And this was a brand new saw, since I couldn't find a good used one at the time, and was pi$$ed at the old one. And I deserved it. 2002 was a tough year. Patriarch, glad that's over! |
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m... In article bf9ae.4309$lz1.517@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: "Doug Miller" wrote in message om... In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on the tools that I have. Sounds like you dont move your equipment around much. I do based on space limitations. Almost all of it's on wheels. Some of it stays put, some of it moves every time I use it. And there are a *lot* of receptacles in the shop. :-) While a good portion of the circuits will be dedicated to specific equipment and I can match the receptacle to plug, some outlets are being installed with the expectation that several pieces of equipment will be used on them. Just as one would wire 20amp 110v circuits instead of 15amp to be able to power all 20amp and below 110v equipment, I plan to do the same with my 240v equipment. The rub comes in with the 240v receptacles and plugs is that they have different blade configurations depending on whether or not they are a 15amp, 20amp, or 30amp and beyond pieces of equipment. Right, but since you're presumably installing multiple receptacles *anyway*, it seems to be that it's a lot less trouble to install, say, six receptacles of three different configurations, than it is to install six receptacles of the same configuration, *and* change somewhere between one and five plugs on your machines. I will have 15 240v outlets in the workshop area. My original thought was to go with the twist lock outlets so I would have been replacing all of the equipment plugs anyway. Based on your comments that the Twist Lock P/R's are not really required and can fall out if not properly locked, I will need to assess what I am going to do. If I decide to go with a blade style plug and receptacles and your recommendation of switching them up to match the plugs, my equipment is tied to the locations of those outets. Another thought would be to install both receptacles in a double gang box. Less expense, too, because (a) receptacles are usually cheaper than plugs, and (b) n receptacles clearly cost less than (n receptacles + n plugs). Given that I am doing the work myself finishing our basement, the savings of not paying a contractor more than covers the cost of plugs for many different pieces of equipment IMO. My comfort level that I have quality easy to use connections to my equiment is worth the extra cost. I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps). Given that most of the equipment runs on either 125v or 250v, I will have to replace the power cords anyway. This will allow me to go to a common plug and receptacle that gives me the flexibility to move my equipment around. Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you here. If I compare the cord on my 240v air compressor with that of other the equipment that is rated for 120v and 240v but prewired for 120v, the cable difference is significant. I understand that the size of the cord varies based on the amps required by the equipment, but since I will be switching the wiring out at the equipment to make it run on the 240v power, installing a better quality cord makes sense to me instead of just replacing the plug end (obviously where needed). -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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In article 5qbae.4326$lz1.1003@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:
I will have 15 240v outlets in the workshop area. That's an awful lot. I don't have that many 120V receptacles in mine, and I haven't found there to be a problem. [snip] Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you here. If I compare the cord on my 240v air compressor with that of other the equipment that is rated for 120v and 240v but prewired for 120v, the cable difference is significant. I understand that the size of the cord varies based on the amps required by the equipment, but since I will be switching the wiring out at the equipment to make it run on the 240v power, installing a better quality cord makes sense to me instead of just replacing the plug end (obviously where needed). The part that I think you're missing here is that a tool draws *half* the current at 240V that it does at 120V. Thus, for any given tool, the cord needs to be heavier for 120V use than for 240V. Your 240V air compressor has a heavy duty cord because it draws a lot of current, not because it runs at 240V. There's no reason IMO to replace the cord: if it's heavy enough to carry the current the tool pulls at 120V, it's already *twice* as heavy as it needs to be to carry the current the tool will pull at 240V. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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DJ Delorie wrote:
"J. Clarke" writes: Our "200 amp" service included a private transformer (long driveway) that was only rated at 40 amps continuous. 40A continuous at what voltage? It doesn't matter if I use one branch (120v) or both (240v). It still causes the same heat and resistive losses in the transformer's coils. But it does matter if it's rated at 40A at the voltage that is coming _out_ of it or 40A at the voltage that is going _into_ it. 40A at 5KV is a lot more power than 40A at 240V. But the transformer was officially rated at 10 KVa, the new one is 25 KVa. They normally assume a balanced (i.e. 240v) load, since houses are supposed to be wired that way. But given that I was drawing 123 amps at 240v, that's kinda an irrelevent issue for me ;-) -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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"J. Clarke" writes: But it does matter if it's rated at 40A at the voltage that is coming _out_ of it or 40A at the voltage that is going _into_ it. 40A at 5KV is a lot more power than 40A at 240V. It was rated 10 KVa, I calculated 41A at 240v (output), or I suppose 1.4A at 7200v (input). I don't plan on attaching anything to the input side, except for the occasional squirrel. |
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article 5qbae.4326$lz1.1003@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: I will have 15 240v outlets in the workshop area. That's an awful lot. I don't have that many 120V receptacles in mine, and I haven't found there to be a problem. Has more to do with the shape of the workspace than anything, not being the traditional rectangle shaped space. [snip] Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you here. If I compare the cord on my 240v air compressor with that of other the equipment that is rated for 120v and 240v but prewired for 120v, the cable difference is significant. I understand that the size of the cord varies based on the amps required by the equipment, but since I will be switching the wiring out at the equipment to make it run on the 240v power, installing a better quality cord makes sense to me instead of just replacing the plug end (obviously where needed). The part that I think you're missing here is that a tool draws *half* the current at 240V that it does at 120V. Thus, for any given tool, the cord needs to be heavier for 120V use than for 240V. Your 240V air compressor has a heavy duty cord because it draws a lot of current, not because it runs at 240V. There's no reason IMO to replace the cord: if it's heavy enough to carry the current the tool pulls at 120V, it's already *twice* as heavy as it needs to be to carry the current the tool will pull at 240V. I understand that the amps drop on the 240v equipment, and I probably used a bad example with the air compressor. A better example would be a comparison between my Delta dust collector and my Grizzly tablesaw. Both have 1.5hp motors, and both work fine, but the quality of the cord on the Delta is much nicer than my 12+ year old Grizzly. The general quality of some of the cords are not to my liking so if I have to replace the end to match a receptacle, I might as well upgrade the entire power cord. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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In article qjjae.4357$lz1.735@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:
I understand that the amps drop on the 240v equipment, and I probably used a bad example with the air compressor. A better example would be a comparison between my Delta dust collector and my Grizzly tablesaw. Both have 1.5hp motors, and both work fine, but the quality of the cord on the Delta is much nicer than my 12+ year old Grizzly. The general quality of some of the cords are not to my liking so if I have to replace the end to match a receptacle, I might as well upgrade the entire power cord. Ah, I see. Of course, that's not an electrical issue. :-) -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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"DL" wrote in message news:ZJ8ae.4302$lz1.3581@lakeread01... "Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A should be plenty. I have spoken with a certified electrician, the electric company, and the county inspector on upgrading my main service to 400amps from 200amps and all agree that it should be done. The service upgrade is for the entire 5000+ square foot home. The current 200amp service panel is completely maxed out. I am in the process of finishing a 1500 square foot basement of which around 500 square feet are dedicated to the workshop. I have a full bath and media and other rooms, connections to the garage that need power circuits which justify the additional service upgrade. Having lived in homes that are under wired, the cost difference to get what will meet my needs now and in the future is well worth the minimal increase in cost for the heavier wire, breakers, and panels. For the workshop specifically I am installing a subpanel with a 100amp circuit from the main panel to cover my needs in the workshop. Given I have a rotary phase converter that requires a 70-80amp breaker alone, along with the other 30 and 50amp circuits I will be running, I don't think this is too outrageous. To me, it is a lot cheaper to go on the high side now than to have to redo wiring later once the walls are closed in. So I guess that the electric co is going to upgrade the feed to supply the 400 amps?? and install you your very own 100kva transformer?? ( not likely:-) ( guess that they could install a 75kva can as it will put out 360 amps and they allow about 125% overload on their transformers for a short time) So unless you get them to install at least a 75 kva transformer, you as the other posters have pointed out you are NOT going to be able to draw 400 amps from the feed. They will also have to increase the wires size for your service drop from the transformer to your home. William.... Just for reference, my shop contains the following: - table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all 240V) - band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill press, mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable tools (all 120V) SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have two of us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust collector and air filter in operation simultaneously. And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A feed. That subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove (240V). [snip] I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail" connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords? He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching the receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure of money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As long as the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit, for example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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Here's what I did...I asked around as to what plug is the most common
for 220v and installed electrical outlets that fit that plug. All my 220v tools have the same plug type and my shop has seven 220v. receptacles. I'd forget about the twist lock mechanism--the 220v plugs have enough friction that they stay in place. And when I need a new plug, there's one available in more than one store. |
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"William" wrote in message
news:3ovae.10379$c24.8408@attbi_s72... "DL" wrote in message news:ZJ8ae.4302$lz1.3581@lakeread01... "Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL" wrote: Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from 200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my workshop area. Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A should be plenty. I have spoken with a certified electrician, the electric company, and the county inspector on upgrading my main service to 400amps from 200amps and all agree that it should be done. The service upgrade is for the entire 5000+ square foot home. The current 200amp service panel is completely maxed out. I am in the process of finishing a 1500 square foot basement of which around 500 square feet are dedicated to the workshop. I have a full bath and media and other rooms, connections to the garage that need power circuits which justify the additional service upgrade. Having lived in homes that are under wired, the cost difference to get what will meet my needs now and in the future is well worth the minimal increase in cost for the heavier wire, breakers, and panels. For the workshop specifically I am installing a subpanel with a 100amp circuit from the main panel to cover my needs in the workshop. Given I have a rotary phase converter that requires a 70-80amp breaker alone, along with the other 30 and 50amp circuits I will be running, I don't think this is too outrageous. To me, it is a lot cheaper to go on the high side now than to have to redo wiring later once the walls are closed in. So I guess that the electric co is going to upgrade the feed to supply the 400 amps?? and install you your very own 100kva transformer?? ( not likely:-) ( guess that they could install a 75kva can as it will put out 360 amps and they allow about 125% overload on their transformers for a short time) So unless you get them to install at least a 75 kva transformer, you as the other posters have pointed out you are NOT going to be able to draw 400 amps from the feed. They will also have to increase the wires size for your service drop from the transformer to your home. William.... Well, I am mainly going by what the power company and certified electrician told me to do. Most of the homes in the area in the 5000+ square feet range are wired with 400amp service entrances as I am told. I will need a new meter head (which the electric company will supply and install) and the copper service entrance wires to the second 200amp main panel as well as the conduit to get it inside and grounding. Our house was a spec house and the builder decided to cut back on certain things. They installed both boards for the 2 - 200amp service panels homes of this size generally install, but only installed one 200amp service panel, used all of the breakers except one in the main panel they installed. Not sufficient breaker connections for me to finish out basement to say the least. So to finish what the builder didn't do in the first place, I am taking the home to 400amps of service so that boxes are similar in size and will look proper when we go to sell the home in the future. Once installed, I will only pay for the electric I use whether or not it is a 200, 400, or for that matter a 1000amp (if there is such a thing) service. Whether or not they already have or will install a separate 100kva system to ensure I can actually draw the full 400amps is yet to be seen. (Thanks for the heads up. I will be sure to ask the power company about it) I fully believe that I will never come close to drawing the full 400amps, but given the amount of electronics, appliances, and power tools, it's not worth the aggrivation and safety issues of circuits poping when I overload a 200amp service. Given that the first panel has over 800amps of breakers at this point, I don't think that it is unreasonable to the service upgraded. They are not going to take me to 250, my only option was to go to the 400amp service which I am more that fine with. I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous, but to the contrary, I am installing what I believe (and people have agreed) is a safe (will have inspected to ensure it is) and flexible electrical system that will meet my needs now and in the future. Having all of my 240v connections wired with a minimum of 10 gauge wire might be more than is needed for a 15 or 20amp piece of equipment, but it will handle the load fine. If you only use a maximum of 100amps in your home, do you down grade the service entrance from 200amps to 100amps, I think not. Having put additions on homes before, and gone through the sale process, I want to make sure that things are done right for safety first, but then I also want to take into account how it will affect the sale of the home. The cost difference between a 125amp load center and the upgrade to the second 200amp panel as well as the wiring, receptacles and plugs just don't add up to that much, especially from a safety factor. David Just for reference, my shop contains the following: - table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all 240V) - band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill press, mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable tools (all 120V) SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have two of us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust collector and air filter in operation simultaneously. And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A feed. That subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove (240V). [snip] I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail" connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords? He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching the receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure of money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As long as the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit, for example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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"Phisherman" wrote in message news Here's what I did...I asked around as to what plug is the most common for 220v and installed electrical outlets that fit that plug. All my 220v tools have the same plug type and my shop has seven 220v. receptacles. I'd forget about the twist lock mechanism--the 220v plugs have enough friction that they stay in place. And when I need a new plug, there's one available in more than one store. I think that is a good idea. Thanks for the comments. David |
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"DL" wrote in message news:Ksyae.4804$lz1.333@lakeread01... I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous, but David, I think a lot of guys are just looking at the plan for 400A service and scratching their heads wondering "why". Because most of us try to things in a safe, yet cost-effective way, I think it's natural for people to question it. 5000 sq ft is a big house. But there are plenty of homes around me in the 3000-3500 sq ft range, being built with 200A service. And probably a bigger factor than the size: are there more people living in the 5000 sq. ft. house than a 3000? More concurrent use of electrical power? The electrician who came out to inspect my last add-on circuit told me most of the newer houses with 200A panels will probably never even see 100A being drawn. They install a 200A service panel mainly to have more spaces for breakers. (and I'm assuming the cost for a 200A main breaker and the larger wire size in a new installation is relatively small). But what's the cost of upgrading from 200A to 400A service? Compared to another solution like two 200A panels to make room for more circuits/breakers? Someone else's advice about a load calculation is right on the money. That's the starting point, and I'd be surprised if the electrician hasn't done it. If it were my money, I'd want to see the reasoning behind his recommendation. Just my opinion. |
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"Keith Carlson" wrote in message news:TSCae.11155$c24.1210@attbi_s72... "DL" wrote in message news:Ksyae.4804$lz1.333@lakeread01... I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous, but David, I think a lot of guys are just looking at the plan for 400A service and scratching their heads wondering "why". Because most of us try to things in a safe, yet cost-effective way, I think it's natural for people to question it. You make a good point, but cost effective can mean different things to different people. The $400 I was quoted a year ago to upgrade the service doesn't seem excessive to me. Even if it was around $1000 I would still do it most likely as it brings my home into spec with similar homes in my area. 5000 sq ft is a big house. But there are plenty of homes around me in the 3000-3500 sq ft range, being built with 200A service. And probably a bigger factor than the size: are there more people living in the 5000 sq. ft. house than a 3000? More concurrent use of electrical power? It all goes to what people do in their homes. I know people that live in their homes and don't do anything with them, but I am not that type. The electrician who came out to inspect my last add-on circuit told me most of the newer houses with 200A panels will probably never even see 100A being drawn. They install a 200A service panel mainly to have more spaces for breakers. (and I'm assuming the cost for a 200A main breaker and the larger wire size in a new installation is relatively small). Most people won't, but some will and for a limited cost that I am personally willing to pay, I would rather have the extra capacity. But what's the cost of upgrading from 200A to 400A service? Compared to another solution like two 200A panels to make room for more circuits/breakers? Someone else's advice about a load calculation is right on the money. That's the starting point, and I'd be surprised if the electrician hasn't done it. If it were my money, I'd want to see the reasoning behind his recommendation. The real cost IMO is the cost of the electrician's time to upgrade the service to 400amps and his materials, $400. Also, I would pay around $200 for the electrician to bond a second 200amp service panel to the existing 200amp panel if I just wanted to add more capacity for breakers. The electric company supplies and installs the new meter head, the electrician just needs to connect the service to the panel I already installed. The circuit analysis plans that circuits are not always under load, otherwise I wouldn't have close to 800amps of breakers in my existing 200amp panel. I will be adding some higher amp usage equipment in the workshop, garage, and moderate load equipment in my entertainment room that have a strong potential of being under load at the same time, that along with the other existing loads that can potentially come into play, I think the decision for me is a good one. Remember, I only have to need 201amps for the main to kick. Most people will never come close to that level. As I stated before, they won't charge me for current I don't use. The power company has no real vested interest in doing this other than to sell me more electricity if I need it. Why would they go to the expense of adding a new 400amp meter head to my home if they were saw no potential whatsoever of selling me beyond 200amps of service at a given time? The electrician was contacted after speaking with the power company and the county so it is not a situation of an electrician trying to scam some unnecessary work. Also, if I find out 6 months from not that I do require more capacity, it will be much more expensive than what I am doing now.Personal experience plays a role as well. Having lived in a home that was underpowered, I am not willing to take the chance. I think it is fair that people that obviously know more than I do about electricity would question what I am doing, but it comes across as if I am going to spend others money which I am not. Same types of discussions go on for equipment all the time. It goes to what a person is comfortable with. For certain equipment I am fine with the Grizzly products, but for others I want a different level of quality. Its what I will be comfortable with. I truly appreciate everyone's perspectives and insights which help me make a decision, but the bottom line decision is mine, and I have to be comfortable with it. Thanks, David Just my opinion. |
#38
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In article TSCae.11155$c24.1210@attbi_s72,
Keith Carlson wrote: "DL" wrote in message news:Ksyae.4804$lz1.333@lakeread01... I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous, but David, I think a lot of guys are just looking at the plan for 400A service and scratching their heads wondering "why". Because most of us try to things in a safe, yet cost-effective way, I think it's natural for people to question it. 5000 sq ft is a big house. But there are plenty of homes around me in the 3000-3500 sq ft range, being built with 200A service. And probably a bigger factor than the size: are there more people living in the 5000 sq. ft. house than a 3000? More concurrent use of electrical power? The electrician who came out to inspect my last add-on circuit told me most of the newer houses with 200A panels will probably never even see 100A being drawn. Make it 150A and I'll agree. but hitting 100A is all too easy nowadays, when you start considering all the kitchen small appliances, personal computers and especially _printers_, and all the other 'consumer electronics' to be found in a home. individually, they don't draw a great lot, but there are so _many_ of them. Example, I've got *sixteen* 'counter-top' appliances in the kitchen. that's admittedly on the high side, because I am a bit of 'gadget happy' type, and, for example have two microwaves. Given that set-up it's not unreasonable that I might have 6-7 of them in simultaneous operation. at in excess of a kilowatt each. Plus maybe the dishwasher. Let the refrigerator and/or freezer decide to cycle, and I could hit 50A @ 240 just in the kitchen. Without considering a possible electric stove. Add the air-conditioning, and it doesn't take 'hardly anything' additional to go over 100A. They install a 200A service panel mainly to have more spaces for breakers. (and I'm assuming the cost for a 200A main breaker and the larger wire size in a new installation is relatively small). The incremental difference in the cost of the panel and main breaker is under $100 U.S. The cost of larger feed-wire from the transformer is maybe $1/ft. I doubt the total cost increment would exceed $1,000. But what's the cost of upgrading from 200A to 400A service? Compared to another solution like two 200A panels to make room for more circuits/breakers? Someone else's advice about a load calculation is right on the money. That's the starting point, and I'd be surprised if the electrician hasn't done it. If it were my money, I'd want to see the reasoning behind his recommendation. I find it _not_at_all_ difficult to believe -- i.e. that it *is* entirely reasonable -- that 200A would be insufficient for a property of that scale. Postulate Central A/C, that's gonna be an easy 70A (at 240) right there. just for the compressor. (I grew up in a circa 1600 sq ft house, that had two-zone fully independent HVAC -- the AC for _each_ zone was a dedicated 40A circuit for the compressor; plus there was an additional 20A (120) A/C for a room that was exposed on 5 sides.) Throw in a couple of electric "major appliances", say a stove at 50A, and a clothes dryer at 30A, and you've got an easy simultaneous load of 150A. Now, lets add some other basic necessities: 1) The GFA furnace blowers, or circulating pumps for a hot-water radiator system -- for a house of that size, 15A (120v). 2) Washing Machine, to match the dryer 10A (120v) 3) Refrigerator 13A (120v) 4) separate freezer 13A (120v) 5) dishwasher 10A (120v) 6) garbage disposer 8A (120v) 7) trash compactor 8A (120v) 8) Microwave oven 10A (120v) There is roughly 90A at 120, or 45A at 240 We've now got a total load of 195A at 240. And it is _entirely_ within the realm of reason that *all* those devices could be running simultaneously. Without exceeding a 200A utility feed, you've got whopping _10A_at_120_ left, to run _everything_else_ in the house. Twelve 100-watt light bulbs. You get a little more breathing room if the stove and clothes dryer are gas-fired. For a 'demonstrator' model where, for example, major appliances that are present will _not_ be being used, I can see a developer 'cheaping out' with only 200A service. Start adding in power demands for a 'serious' shop, and there's no doubt that 200A service is inadequate. Yeah, 400A looks like overkill, but if it's the "next step up" from 200, then that _is_ what you do. If 250, or 300 service was available, it might have been sufficient, but 'why take the chance'. probably 75% of the cost of re-doing things is in the labor. if materials for 400A cost _twice_ what 250A materials do, it's only circa 10% of the total bill. This is called "*CHEAP* insurance" Particularly if amortized over the expected lifetime of the work. |
#39
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In article ,
Wes Stewart wrote: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:39:16 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: [snip] To do otherwise would make it possible to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only 20A, on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A. What's a 20A receptacle doing on a circuit fused at 30A? In engineering terminology, the technical description for that situation is "a mistake". Such things _do_ happen in the real world. wry grin Remember: "There is no such thing as a 'fool-proof' system. For any attempt at devising such a system there is a *sufficiently*determined* fool that is capable of breaking it." The 'pigtail' system described _can_ be deployed "safely", *IF* you follow a few simple rules. 1) All the in-wall wiring, breakers, and receptacles are rated for the draw of the highest-powered piece of equipment to be used. 2) The breaker has a load rating that is no higher than the minimum of the wiring rating, or the receptacle rating. 3) The wall receptacle rating is no higher than the wiring rating. 4) the 'pigtails' *always* have an 'equipment-side' fitting that is rated no higher than that of the 'wall-side' fitting. If rule #1 is followed religiously, then 'strictly speaking', rule #3 is not necessary. There is nothing 'unsafe' about using higher-rated connectors for a lower-rated circuit *AS*LONG*AS* the circuit rating is not exceeded. There is a risk that 'at a later date', something will be introduced that _does_ exceed the circuit rating, with 'unfortunate' effect. This potential "down the road" problem is avoided by using 'right-sized' connectors. |
#40
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In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01,
DL wrote: I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations. [[.. munch ..]] Your approach _is_ entirely rational and reasonable. One thing I would suggest considering. "safety cords" (aka 'strain reliefs') across the connections, _whichever_ kind of connector you end up using. Where cords are subject to movement, twisting, etc. "Twist-Lok" connectors _can_ come unplugged unexpectedly. Their primary 'advantage' is that they do *not* disconnect when subjected to a _straight-line_ pull. The secondary advantage is that they tolerate _large_numbers_ of connect/disconnect cycles better than "straight blade" types. Something as simple as a piece of string/twine, knotted around the cord just behind the plug, and attached to a hook next to the outlet. Makes it _really_ difficult for the plug to 'fall out' of the socket. grin |
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