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DL
 
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Default 220v Plug End Replacement for Equipment

I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to
be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations.
As an example, I am going to install a 30amp 220 receptacle that will be
used by my finishing (sanding) machine, current air compressor, and the
replacement larger air compressor which have different plug end
configurations. Since I really like the ideal of the solid connection the
twist lock style receptacles provide for the equipment, I will have to
change the plug ends or complete power cords on all of my equipment.

To my knowledge IIRC, all of the woodworking equipment runs strictly on 250v
(3-wire confirguration) as compared to appliances that can run on 125/250v
(4-wire configuration) such as a range. Even so, I would figured that going
with the 4 wire receptacles gives me the most flexibility in case a piece of
equipment does use 125/250v that I am not thinking of now. Wiring from the
panel to the receptacle box was done with 10/3 for the 20-30amp connections
and 6/3 for my 40-50amp connection.

When I replace the plug ends to match the 4-wire receptacles, if the
original plug end was three prong (2 live and a ground), I obviously will
only be able to wire the 4 wire twist lock plug with the 3 existing wires
from the equipment power cord. Will there be a problem with the Neutral
connection not being wired on the plug side even though it is wired from the
panel to the receptacle. It should be noted that I am running these
connections from a subpanel where the ground and neutral wire bars are
separated.

The goal if possible is to use the same type receptacles on all outlets
around the shop to allow for maximum flexibility in re-arranging the shop
based on future needs and uses.

Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated.

David


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Patriarch
 
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Default

"DL" wrote in
news:2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01:

I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are
going to be used with different equipment that have different plug
configurations. snip

Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated.


Caveat #1: I am not a registered or licensed electrician, although I did
consult one.

Caveat #2: I know it is stupid to respond to a wReck discussion of
electricity, due of the risk of involvement in discussions in which others
are or claim to be more expert.

Caveat #3: You asked an opinion, and I have one to offer.

Caveat #4: I have a hobby shop, not subject to local government or
insurance regulatory safety inspection.

My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in
selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match
the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. I use this to do as the
Safety Saint earlier described, to have a visible and controllable means of
making CERTAIN that power is disconnected, before I put body parts into the
innards of a machine which can damage said parts.

Such pigtails are disconnected when the shop is closed down, or I'm
finished with the use of the machine for that session. Even with 110V, on
the cutting tools.

Patriarch
  #3   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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Default

In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to
be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations.


I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on the
tools that I have.

As an example, I am going to install a 30amp 220 receptacle that will be
used by my finishing (sanding) machine, current air compressor, and the
replacement larger air compressor which have different plug end
configurations. Since I really like the ideal of the solid connection the
twist lock style receptacles provide for the equipment, I will have to
change the plug ends or complete power cords on all of my equipment.


IMO, the twist-lock plugs are not really necessary. In fact, a twist-lock plug
that is *not* fully twisted and locked is much *more* likely to fall out of
its socket than is a standard plug. I've never observed any of my standard
plugs to come out of their receptacles unexpectedly.

To my knowledge IIRC, all of the woodworking equipment runs strictly on 250v
(3-wire confirguration) as compared to appliances that can run on 125/250v
(4-wire configuration) such as a range. Even so, I would figured that going
with the 4 wire receptacles gives me the most flexibility in case a piece of
equipment does use 125/250v that I am not thinking of now. Wiring from the
panel to the receptacle box was done with 10/3 for the 20-30amp connections
and 6/3 for my 40-50amp connection.


Entirely correct. However, it's flexibility that you don't need, and, if it's
not done correctly, there is a potential hazard. If you're going to do this -
and I wouldn't - you MUST use receptacles and plugs that are rated for the
HIGHEST amperage circuit in the shop. To do otherwise would make it possible
to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only 20A,
on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A.

And, of course, every time you buy a new piece of gear, you're going to have
to change the plug on it.

What happens if you, sometime later, buy a piece of equipment with a higher
amperage rating than anything you have now - and higher than anything you have
a receptacle rated for? You'll need to install a new receptacle with the
correct rating, and, perforce, a different configuration. And then your
interchangeability is out the window, unless you replace all your plugs.

When I replace the plug ends to match the 4-wire receptacles, if the
original plug end was three prong (2 live and a ground), I obviously will
only be able to wire the 4 wire twist lock plug with the 3 existing wires
from the equipment power cord. Will there be a problem with the Neutral
connection not being wired on the plug side even though it is wired from the
panel to the receptacle. It should be noted that I am running these
connections from a subpanel where the ground and neutral wire bars are
separated.


That will be no problem at all. If the equipment doesn't need the neutral, it
doesn't need it. And if it does, it's there.

However, I think this is completely unnecessary. Not to say they don't exist,
of course, but I haven't yet seen a piece of woodworking equipment that has
both 120V and 240V loads, and it's hard for me to imagine one that would. On a
range or a dryer, the neutral is needed because the heating elements are 240V,
but the lights, timer, etc. are 120V. The electrical components of woodworking
tools typically consist of a motor and a switch. A 240V motor has no need of a
neutral.

The goal if possible is to use the same type receptacles on all outlets
around the shop to allow for maximum flexibility in re-arranging the shop
based on future needs and uses.

Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated.


I wouldn't do it. To sum up:
- unnecessary expense and effort to replace multiple plugs
- twist-locks are not needed (another unnecessary expense)
- risk of fire if amp rating of receptacles not matched correctly to tools
- no need for neutral on 240V tools (more unnecessary expense)



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #4   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Patriarch wrote:

My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in
selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match
the wall box socket to an appropriate female end.


As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like plugging
a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine.

If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #5   Report Post  
DL
 
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Default


"Patriarch" wrote in message
.136...
"DL" wrote in
news:2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01:

I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are
going to be used with different equipment that have different plug
configurations. snip

Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated.


Caveat #1: I am not a registered or licensed electrician, although I did
consult one.


Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my
workshop area.

Caveat #2: I know it is stupid to respond to a wReck discussion of
electricity, due of the risk of involvement in discussions in which others
are or claim to be more expert.


Well, I like to see responses from all so that I can make my own decision as
to what will work best for me. Ultimately, in my case, the final word comes
from the county inspection office as to what they will approve.

Caveat #3: You asked an opinion, and I have one to offer.


Thanks for responding with your opinion.

Caveat #4: I have a hobby shop, not subject to local government or
insurance regulatory safety inspection.


Not sure where you live or the jurisdiction rules, but any place I have ever
lived required inspections for wiring changes / additions for anything more
that changing a switch/plug or adding a fixture to an existing box, hobby
shop or not. I do agree that changing the plug ends is not something that
would require inspection by a county inspector, but wiring the receptacle
and the wires that run back to the subpanel do require approval from the
county inspector where I live.

My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me
in
selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match
the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. I use this to do as the
Safety Saint earlier described, to have a visible and controllable means
of
making CERTAIN that power is disconnected, before I put body parts into
the
innards of a machine which can damage said parts.

Such pigtails are disconnected when the shop is closed down, or I'm
finished with the use of the machine for that session. Even with 110V, on
the cutting tools.


I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to
connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring
to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail"
connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug
to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and
rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords?

Patriarch


I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to
connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring
to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail"
connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment to the
configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and rewire
the ends of the equipment plug ends?




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WillR
 
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Default

Patriarch wrote:
"DL" wrote in
news:2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01:


I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are
going to be used with different equipment that have different plug
configurations. snip

Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated.



Caveat #1: I am not a registered or licensed electrician, although I did
consult one.

Caveat #2: I know it is stupid to respond to a wReck discussion of
electricity, due of the risk of involvement in discussions in which others
are or claim to be more expert.

Caveat #3: You asked an opinion, and I have one to offer.

Caveat #4: I have a hobby shop, not subject to local government or
insurance regulatory safety inspection.

My well-supplied, and well-respected local hardware purveyor assisted me in
selecting the appropriate, high quality parts to make up pigtails to match
the wall box socket to an appropriate female end. I use this to do as the
Safety Saint earlier described, to have a visible and controllable means of
making CERTAIN that power is disconnected, before I put body parts into the
innards of a machine which can damage said parts.

Such pigtails are disconnected when the shop is closed down, or I'm
finished with the use of the machine for that session. Even with 110V, on
the cutting tools.

Patriarch



Love the caveat, and the pigtails idea. Both are great ideas. Used the
pigtails before in boating to match shore power...

Some good things _do_ come from California -- see? :-)



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
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Doug Miller
 
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Default

In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:

Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone my
workshop area.


Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load
calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A should be
plenty.

Just for reference, my shop contains the following:
- table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all 240V)
- band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill press,
mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable tools
(all 120V)

SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have two of
us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust collector
and air filter in operation simultaneously.

And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A feed. That
subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove (240V).


[snip]

I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to
connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring
to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail"
connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug
to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and
rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords?


He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching the
receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the
equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure of
money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries
exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the
pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As long as
the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit, for
example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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TaskMule
 
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"DL" wrote in message
news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01...

snip

Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and

will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance

from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone

my
workshop area.

snip

400amp service? Are you running an aluminum smelter?


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Joe User
 
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Default

Doug Miller wrote:

As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like plugging
a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine.

If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard.


Why? Wouldn't the 20A circuit have a 20A breaker, which would trip due
to the 30A load? You say "Doh!", reset the breaker, and plug it into
the correct outlet and go on...

-j
  #10   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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Default

In article , Joe User wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like

plugging
a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine.

If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard.


Why? Wouldn't the 20A circuit have a 20A breaker, which would trip due
to the 30A load? You say "Doh!", reset the breaker, and plug it into
the correct outlet and go on...


One *hopes* the 20A circuit has a 20A breaker, anyway... I should have
stressed the importance of making sure that the ratings of the breaker, the
wire, and the receptacle all match.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


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Patriarch
 
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"DL" wrote in
news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01:
snip
I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box
to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection.


Think 'short extension cord', external to the building wiring.

All of the 240v circuits were 30A, installed, by a licensed, bonded,
insured electrical professional. Who installed a subpanel, with lockable
master lockout switch.

Sorry if my inaccurate, or irregular use of the language caused confusion.
It was not my intent.

Patriarch
  #14   Report Post  
J. Clarke
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Joe User wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

As long as those pigtails don't make it possible to do something like
plugging a 30A tool into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, that's fine.

If they *do* make that possible, you have a *serious* hazard.


Why? Wouldn't the 20A circuit have a 20A breaker, which would trip due
to the 30A load? You say "Doh!", reset the breaker, and plug it into
the correct outlet and go on...


If it's a breaker and not a fuse. If nobody has stuck a slug under a
burnt-out fuse, if the breaker is in fact working properly. Lot of ifs
there. Breakers and fuses are backup--they are there for when something
goes wrong. Depending on them instead of proper procedures is dangerous.

-j


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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DL
 
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:

Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and
will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance
from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone
my
workshop area.


Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load
calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A
should be
plenty.


I have spoken with a certified electrician, the electric company, and the
county inspector on upgrading my main service to 400amps from 200amps and
all agree that it should be done. The service upgrade is for the entire
5000+ square foot home. The current 200amp service panel is completely
maxed out. I am in the process of finishing a 1500 square foot basement of
which around 500 square feet are dedicated to the workshop. I have a full
bath and media and other rooms, connections to the garage that need power
circuits which justify the additional service upgrade. Having lived in
homes that are under wired, the cost difference to get what will meet my
needs now and in the future is well worth the minimal increase in cost for
the heavier wire, breakers, and panels.

For the workshop specifically I am installing a subpanel with a 100amp
circuit from the main panel to cover my needs in the workshop. Given I have
a rotary phase converter that requires a 70-80amp breaker alone, along with
the other 30 and 50amp circuits I will be running, I don't think this is too
outrageous. To me, it is a lot cheaper to go on the high side now than to
have to redo wiring later once the walls are closed in.

Just for reference, my shop contains the following:
- table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all 240V)
- band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill press,
mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable tools
(all 120V)

SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have
two of
us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust
collector
and air filter in operation simultaneously.

And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A feed.
That
subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove (240V).


[snip]

I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to
connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you referring
to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail"
connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment plug
to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut and
rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords?


He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching the
receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the
equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure
of
money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries
exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the
pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As long
as
the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit,
for
example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?





  #16   Report Post  
DL
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"TaskMule" wrote in message
...

"DL" wrote in message
news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01...

snip

Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and

will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance

from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much beyone

my
workshop area.

snip

400amp service? Are you running an aluminum smelter?



See my response to Doug.


  #17   Report Post  
DL
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to
be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations.


I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on
the
tools that I have.


Sounds like you dont move your equipment around much. I do based on space
limitations. While a good portion of the circuits will be dedicated to
specific equipment and I can match the receptacle to plug, some outlets are
being installed with the expectation that several pieces of equipment will
be used on them. Just as one would wire 20amp 110v circuits instead of
15amp to be able to power all 20amp and below 110v equipment, I plan to do
the same with my 240v equipment. The rub comes in with the 240v receptacles
and plugs is that they have different blade configurations depending on
whether or not they are a 15amp, 20amp, or 30amp and beyond pieces of
equipment.

I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with
ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the
shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp
breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or
equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and
an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps).

Given that most of the equipment runs on either 125v or 250v, I will have to
replace the power cords anyway. This will allow me to go to a common plug
and receptacle that gives me the flexibility to move my equipment around.


As an example, I am going to install a 30amp 220 receptacle that will be
used by my finishing (sanding) machine, current air compressor, and the
replacement larger air compressor which have different plug end
configurations. Since I really like the ideal of the solid connection the
twist lock style receptacles provide for the equipment, I will have to
change the plug ends or complete power cords on all of my equipment.


IMO, the twist-lock plugs are not really necessary. In fact, a twist-lock
plug
that is *not* fully twisted and locked is much *more* likely to fall out
of
its socket than is a standard plug. I've never observed any of my standard
plugs to come out of their receptacles unexpectedly.


This is good input and why I asked the question originally. They are on the
pricey side, but I wouldn't mide the expense if they were a better
connection. Doesn't seem from your input that they are worth the extra
expense.

To my knowledge IIRC, all of the woodworking equipment runs strictly on
250v
(3-wire confirguration) as compared to appliances that can run on 125/250v
(4-wire configuration) such as a range. Even so, I would figured that
going
with the 4 wire receptacles gives me the most flexibility in case a piece
of
equipment does use 125/250v that I am not thinking of now. Wiring from
the
panel to the receptacle box was done with 10/3 for the 20-30amp
connections
and 6/3 for my 40-50amp connection.


Entirely correct. However, it's flexibility that you don't need, and, if
it's
not done correctly, there is a potential hazard. If you're going to do
this -
and I wouldn't - you MUST use receptacles and plugs that are rated for the
HIGHEST amperage circuit in the shop. To do otherwise would make it
possible
to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only
20A,
on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A.


My clarfication of what types of circuits I am installing on what type of
wire above covers this.

And, of course, every time you buy a new piece of gear, you're going to
have
to change the plug on it.


Depending on the type of recpeptacle I decide is my standard, I might or
might not have to make a change. Again, most of the 240v equipment I have
purchased works on 120v and 240v, but they come wired for 120v. I would
need to replace the cord anyway so the plug is a moot point then. The added
time or cost for the plugs or cords is not that significant to me given the
equipment generally runs in the just under $500 on the low end, so a $10 -
$30 plug end or cord assembly doesn't seem to much to me.


What happens if you, sometime later, buy a piece of equipment with a
higher
amperage rating than anything you have now - and higher than anything you
have
a receptacle rated for? You'll need to install a new receptacle with the
correct rating, and, perforce, a different configuration. And then your
interchangeability is out the window, unless you replace all your plugs.


Based on what I have currently for equipment, the fact that I have am
installing a centrally located 50amp circuit, and my planned purchases in
the forseeable future, I will be covered. If I do need something higher, I
will install a circuit for that at the time. The subpanel or main panel
will have the space and capacity I need.

When I replace the plug ends to match the 4-wire receptacles, if the
original plug end was three prong (2 live and a ground), I obviously will
only be able to wire the 4 wire twist lock plug with the 3 existing wires
from the equipment power cord. Will there be a problem with the Neutral
connection not being wired on the plug side even though it is wired from
the
panel to the receptacle. It should be noted that I am running these
connections from a subpanel where the ground and neutral wire bars are
separated.


That will be no problem at all. If the equipment doesn't need the neutral,
it
doesn't need it. And if it does, it's there.


This is what I thought, but wanted to be sure.

However, I think this is completely unnecessary. Not to say they don't
exist,
of course, but I haven't yet seen a piece of woodworking equipment that
has
both 120V and 240V loads, and it's hard for me to imagine one that would.
On a
range or a dryer, the neutral is needed because the heating elements are
240V,
but the lights, timer, etc. are 120V. The electrical components of
woodworking
tools typically consist of a motor and a switch. A 240V motor has no need
of a
neutral.


To me, it's cheap enough to run the 10/3 w/ ground and 6/3 w/ ground now so
that in the event something does require it, I don't have to rerun circuits.
I can always cap the neutral off in the receptacle box and install a
receptacle that uses the 2 lives and the ground.

The goal if possible is to use the same type receptacles on all outlets
around the shop to allow for maximum flexibility in re-arranging the shop
based on future needs and uses.

Any recommendations / comments would be appreciated.


I wouldn't do it. To sum up:
- unnecessary expense and effort to replace multiple plugs
- twist-locks are not needed (another unnecessary expense)
- risk of fire if amp rating of receptacles not matched correctly to tools
- no need for neutral on 240V tools (more unnecessary expense)



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


Thanks for your comments,

David


  #18   Report Post  
DL
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 97.136...
"DL" wrote in
news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01:
snip
I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box
to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection.


Think 'short extension cord', external to the building wiring.

All of the 240v circuits were 30A, installed, by a licensed, bonded,
insured electrical professional. Who installed a subpanel, with lockable
master lockout switch.

Sorry if my inaccurate, or irregular use of the language caused confusion.
It was not my intent.

Patriarch


No problem, it's what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure.

It is an interesting idea and I like the concept. Is there a reason you
didn't want to just replace the entire cord to the machine or at a minimum
just the plug end as I proposed?

If you were going to use the equipment in areas that have different
receptacles types, I think this is the best option. Given that I am trying
to standardize on a receptacle type, it seems to me you are doing both sides
when you would only need to do one.

Did you want to leave the original power cord and plug end in tact for
warranty purposes?

Thanks,

David


  #20   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

DL wrote:

I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with
ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the
shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp
breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or
equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and
an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps).


I think you should go ahead and put 30A and 50A rated sockets on
the 30A and 50A circuits respectively. Chose twist-lock or not
as you see fit. Then just put matching plugs on the equipment
as needed. If there is no nuetral on the machine, you just leave
that one unconnected in the plug. Make sure you have a good
ground connection. All of this is safe and legal. Just don't
put a 30A plug on a greater than 30A machine. The two different
rated sockets/plugs will not physically fit into each other so
as long as you don't put the wrong plug on a piece of equipment
you will have no problem.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.



  #21   Report Post  
DJ Delorie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"J. Clarke" writes:
Our "200 amp" service included a private transformer (long driveway)
that was only rated at 40 amps continuous.


40A continuous at what voltage?


It doesn't matter if I use one branch (120v) or both (240v). It still
causes the same heat and resistive losses in the transformer's coils.
But the transformer was officially rated at 10 KVa, the new one is 25
KVa. They normally assume a balanced (i.e. 240v) load, since houses
are supposed to be wired that way.

But given that I was drawing 123 amps at 240v, that's kinda an
irrelevent issue for me ;-)
  #22   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article bf9ae.4309$lz1.517@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to
be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations.


I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on
the
tools that I have.


Sounds like you dont move your equipment around much. I do based on space
limitations.


Almost all of it's on wheels. Some of it stays put, some of it moves every
time I use it. And there are a *lot* of receptacles in the shop. :-)

While a good portion of the circuits will be dedicated to
specific equipment and I can match the receptacle to plug, some outlets are
being installed with the expectation that several pieces of equipment will
be used on them. Just as one would wire 20amp 110v circuits instead of
15amp to be able to power all 20amp and below 110v equipment, I plan to do
the same with my 240v equipment. The rub comes in with the 240v receptacles
and plugs is that they have different blade configurations depending on
whether or not they are a 15amp, 20amp, or 30amp and beyond pieces of
equipment.


Right, but since you're presumably installing multiple receptacles *anyway*,
it seems to be that it's a lot less trouble to install, say, six receptacles
of three different configurations, than it is to install six receptacles of
the same configuration, *and* change somewhere between one and five plugs on
your machines.

Less expense, too, because (a) receptacles are usually cheaper than plugs, and
(b) n receptacles clearly cost less than (n receptacles + n plugs).

I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with
ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the
shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp
breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or
equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended and
an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps).

Given that most of the equipment runs on either 125v or 250v, I will have to
replace the power cords anyway. This will allow me to go to a common plug
and receptacle that gives me the flexibility to move my equipment around.


Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you here.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #24   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

DL wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are

going to
snip

I did what you're proposing, and it works fine for me.

I bought a 3hp Unisaw, 2hp Rockwell planer and 1.5hp General jointer,
all at estate sales. Each had a different 240V plug.

I put in a 30 amp breaker, 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp receptacle for
this stuff. Eventually I'll probably put in more receptacles, but the
jointer and planer tend to get moved each time I use them, so
unplugging and plugging hasn't turned out to be too burdensome.

The saw came with a 30A twist-lock plug, so I standardized the other
machines to that. I'd probably look for a lower cost option if it
wasn't for already having a twist-lock.

The magnetic starters on the saw and jointer have overload protection
built in and the planer has thermal protection on the motor. The
jointer and planer could run on lower amp circuits, but, why bother
putting in separate circuits just for them?

I've also got a 50 amp receptacle, but it's just for the welder.

I agree with others that running four wire circuits isn't necessary.
If you decide to, just don't connect anything to the neutral wire lug
in the plugs of 240V-only machines and you're fine.

In fact, before putting in a sub-panel, I had been running a
cheater-cord (aka pigtail) that had a range cord and plug on one end
and the twist-lock receptacle on the other. I didn't need a neutral,
so just cut that lug off the plug. Disclaimer: you need to do two
things if you try this: 1) understand that your range circuit is
probably 40A, making your 30A receptical illegal, and, 2) have
speeddial set to a nice restraunt if SWMBO comes home finding her stove
unplugged one too many times.

Good luck,

Tim

  #25   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"DL" wrote in
news:Vp9ae.4312$lz1.1231@lakeread01:


"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 97.136...
"DL" wrote in
news:Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01:
snip
I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle
box to connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection.


Think 'short extension cord', external to the building wiring.

All of the 240v circuits were 30A, installed, by a licensed, bonded,
insured electrical professional. Who installed a subpanel, with
lockable master lockout switch.

Sorry if my inaccurate, or irregular use of the language caused
confusion. It was not my intent.

Patriarch


No problem, it's what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure.

It is an interesting idea and I like the concept. Is there a reason
you didn't want to just replace the entire cord to the machine or at a
minimum just the plug end as I proposed?

If you were going to use the equipment in areas that have different
receptacles types, I think this is the best option. Given that I am
trying to standardize on a receptacle type, it seems to me you are
doing both sides when you would only need to do one.

Did you want to leave the original power cord and plug end in tact for
warranty purposes?


I didn't want to cut into a brand new machine, if unneeded. And this
was a brand new saw, since I couldn't find a good used one at the time,
and was pi$$ed at the old one.

And I deserved it. 2002 was a tough year.

Patriarch,
glad that's over!


  #26   Report Post  
DL
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article bf9ae.4309$lz1.517@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going
to
be used with different equipment that have different plug
configurations.

I installed receptacles with the configurations needed for the plugs on
the
tools that I have.


Sounds like you dont move your equipment around much. I do based on space
limitations.


Almost all of it's on wheels. Some of it stays put, some of it moves every
time I use it. And there are a *lot* of receptacles in the shop. :-)

While a good portion of the circuits will be dedicated to
specific equipment and I can match the receptacle to plug, some outlets
are
being installed with the expectation that several pieces of equipment will
be used on them. Just as one would wire 20amp 110v circuits instead of
15amp to be able to power all 20amp and below 110v equipment, I plan to do
the same with my 240v equipment. The rub comes in with the 240v
receptacles
and plugs is that they have different blade configurations depending on
whether or not they are a 15amp, 20amp, or 30amp and beyond pieces of
equipment.


Right, but since you're presumably installing multiple receptacles
*anyway*,
it seems to be that it's a lot less trouble to install, say, six
receptacles
of three different configurations, than it is to install six receptacles
of
the same configuration, *and* change somewhere between one and five plugs
on
your machines.


I will have 15 240v outlets in the workshop area. My original thought was
to go with the twist lock outlets so I would have been replacing all of the
equipment plugs anyway. Based on your comments that the Twist Lock P/R's
are not really required and can fall out if not properly locked, I will need
to assess what I am going to do. If I decide to go with a blade style plug
and receptacles and your recommendation of switching them up to match the
plugs, my equipment is tied to the locations of those outets. Another
thought would be to install both receptacles in a double gang box.

Less expense, too, because (a) receptacles are usually cheaper than plugs,
and
(b) n receptacles clearly cost less than (n receptacles + n plugs).


Given that I am doing the work myself finishing our basement, the savings of
not paying a contractor more than covers the cost of plugs for many
different pieces of equipment IMO. My comfort level that I have quality
easy to use connections to my equiment is worth the extra cost.

I probably didn't make it clear before, but I plan to run 10/3 wire with
ground from 30amp breakers for all my 30amp and below (multiple around the
shop) connections. I plan to run 6/3 wire with ground from a 50 amp
breakers to handle the equipment that runs at more than 30amps but less or
equal to 50amps (one for the larger air compressor as Lew H recommended
and
an extra for other equipment that requires up to 50amps).

Given that most of the equipment runs on either 125v or 250v, I will have
to
replace the power cords anyway. This will allow me to go to a common plug
and receptacle that gives me the flexibility to move my equipment around.


Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you
here.


If I compare the cord on my 240v air compressor with that of other the
equipment that is rated for 120v and 240v but prewired for 120v, the cable
difference is significant. I understand that the size of the cord varies
based on the amps required by the equipment, but since I will be switching
the wiring out at the equipment to make it run on the 240v power, installing
a better quality cord makes sense to me instead of just replacing the plug
end (obviously where needed).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



  #27   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 5qbae.4326$lz1.1003@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:

I will have 15 240v outlets in the workshop area.


That's an awful lot. I don't have that many 120V receptacles in mine, and I
haven't found there to be a problem.

[snip]

Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you
here.


If I compare the cord on my 240v air compressor with that of other the
equipment that is rated for 120v and 240v but prewired for 120v, the cable
difference is significant. I understand that the size of the cord varies
based on the amps required by the equipment, but since I will be switching
the wiring out at the equipment to make it run on the 240v power, installing
a better quality cord makes sense to me instead of just replacing the plug
end (obviously where needed).


The part that I think you're missing here is that a tool draws *half* the
current at 240V that it does at 120V. Thus, for any given tool, the cord needs
to be heavier for 120V use than for 240V. Your 240V air compressor has a heavy
duty cord because it draws a lot of current, not because it runs at 240V.
There's no reason IMO to replace the cord: if it's heavy enough to carry the
current the tool pulls at 120V, it's already *twice* as heavy as it needs to
be to carry the current the tool will pull at 240V.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #28   Report Post  
J. Clarke
 
Posts: n/a
Default

DJ Delorie wrote:


"J. Clarke" writes:
Our "200 amp" service included a private transformer (long driveway)
that was only rated at 40 amps continuous.


40A continuous at what voltage?


It doesn't matter if I use one branch (120v) or both (240v). It still
causes the same heat and resistive losses in the transformer's coils.


But it does matter if it's rated at 40A at the voltage that is coming _out_
of it or 40A at the voltage that is going _into_ it. 40A at 5KV is a lot
more power than 40A at 240V.

But the transformer was officially rated at 10 KVa, the new one is 25
KVa. They normally assume a balanced (i.e. 240v) load, since houses
are supposed to be wired that way.

But given that I was drawing 123 amps at 240v, that's kinda an
irrelevent issue for me ;-)


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
  #29   Report Post  
DJ Delorie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"J. Clarke" writes:
But it does matter if it's rated at 40A at the voltage that is
coming _out_ of it or 40A at the voltage that is going _into_ it.
40A at 5KV is a lot more power than 40A at 240V.


It was rated 10 KVa, I calculated 41A at 240v (output), or I suppose
1.4A at 7200v (input).

I don't plan on attaching anything to the input side, except for the
occasional squirrel.
  #30   Report Post  
DL
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article 5qbae.4326$lz1.1003@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:

I will have 15 240v outlets in the workshop area.


That's an awful lot. I don't have that many 120V receptacles in mine, and
I
haven't found there to be a problem.


Has more to do with the shape of the workspace than anything, not being the
traditional rectangle shaped space.

[snip]

Why do you have to replace power cords "anyway"? I'm not following you
here.


If I compare the cord on my 240v air compressor with that of other the
equipment that is rated for 120v and 240v but prewired for 120v, the cable
difference is significant. I understand that the size of the cord varies
based on the amps required by the equipment, but since I will be switching
the wiring out at the equipment to make it run on the 240v power,
installing
a better quality cord makes sense to me instead of just replacing the plug
end (obviously where needed).


The part that I think you're missing here is that a tool draws *half* the
current at 240V that it does at 120V. Thus, for any given tool, the cord
needs
to be heavier for 120V use than for 240V. Your 240V air compressor has a
heavy
duty cord because it draws a lot of current, not because it runs at 240V.
There's no reason IMO to replace the cord: if it's heavy enough to carry
the
current the tool pulls at 120V, it's already *twice* as heavy as it needs
to
be to carry the current the tool will pull at 240V.

I understand that the amps drop on the 240v equipment, and I probably used a
bad example with the air compressor. A better example would be a comparison
between my Delta dust collector and my Grizzly tablesaw. Both have 1.5hp
motors, and both work fine, but the quality of the cord on the Delta is much
nicer than my 12+ year old Grizzly. The general quality of some of the
cords are not to my liking so if I have to replace the end to match a
receptacle, I might as well upgrade the entire power cord.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?





  #31   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article qjjae.4357$lz1.735@lakeread01, "DL" wrote:

I understand that the amps drop on the 240v equipment, and I probably used a
bad example with the air compressor. A better example would be a comparison
between my Delta dust collector and my Grizzly tablesaw. Both have 1.5hp
motors, and both work fine, but the quality of the cord on the Delta is much
nicer than my 12+ year old Grizzly. The general quality of some of the
cords are not to my liking so if I have to replace the end to match a
receptacle, I might as well upgrade the entire power cord.


Ah, I see. Of course, that's not an electrical issue. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #32   Report Post  
William
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DL" wrote in message
news:ZJ8ae.4302$lz1.3581@lakeread01...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:

Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and
will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance
from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much

beyone
my
workshop area.


Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a load
calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A
should be
plenty.


I have spoken with a certified electrician, the electric company, and the
county inspector on upgrading my main service to 400amps from 200amps and
all agree that it should be done. The service upgrade is for the entire
5000+ square foot home. The current 200amp service panel is completely
maxed out. I am in the process of finishing a 1500 square foot basement

of
which around 500 square feet are dedicated to the workshop. I have a full
bath and media and other rooms, connections to the garage that need power
circuits which justify the additional service upgrade. Having lived in
homes that are under wired, the cost difference to get what will meet my
needs now and in the future is well worth the minimal increase in cost for
the heavier wire, breakers, and panels.

For the workshop specifically I am installing a subpanel with a 100amp
circuit from the main panel to cover my needs in the workshop. Given I

have
a rotary phase converter that requires a 70-80amp breaker alone, along

with
the other 30 and 50amp circuits I will be running, I don't think this is

too
outrageous. To me, it is a lot cheaper to go on the high side now than to
have to redo wiring later once the walls are closed in.



So I guess that the electric co is going to upgrade the feed to supply the
400 amps?? and install you your very own 100kva transformer?? ( not
likely:-) ( guess that they could install a 75kva can as it will put out 360
amps and they allow about 125% overload on their transformers for a short
time) So unless you get them to install at least a 75 kva transformer, you
as the other posters have pointed out you are NOT going to be able to draw
400 amps from the feed. They will also have to increase the wires size for
your service drop from the transformer to your home.

William....


Just for reference, my shop contains the following:
- table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all

240V)
- band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill

press,
mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable

tools
(all 120V)

SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have
two of
us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust
collector
and air filter in operation simultaneously.

And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A

feed.
That
subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove

(240V).


[snip]

I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box to
connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you

referring
to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail"
connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment

plug
to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut

and
rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords?


He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching

the
receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the
equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary expenditure
of
money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and carries
exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the
pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As

long
as
the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A circuit,
for
example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?





  #33   Report Post  
Phisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here's what I did...I asked around as to what plug is the most common
for 220v and installed electrical outlets that fit that plug. All my
220v tools have the same plug type and my shop has seven 220v.
receptacles. I'd forget about the twist lock mechanism--the 220v
plugs have enough friction that they stay in place. And when I need a
new plug, there's one available in more than one store.

  #34   Report Post  
DL
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"William" wrote in message
news:3ovae.10379$c24.8408@attbi_s72...

"DL" wrote in message
news:ZJ8ae.4302$lz1.3581@lakeread01...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article Zm6ae.3927$lz1.2661@lakeread01, "DL"
wrote:

Nor am I, and this is why I am asking for some opinions / guidance and
will
have the work I am doing inspected by the county inspector as well as a
certified electrician that will be upgrading the main service entrance
from
200amps to 400amps needed for the entire space being finished much

beyone
my
workshop area.

Ummmm.... maybe you ought to ask that certified electrician to do a
load
calculation first. What on earth do you want with 400A service? 200A
should be
plenty.


I have spoken with a certified electrician, the electric company, and the
county inspector on upgrading my main service to 400amps from 200amps and
all agree that it should be done. The service upgrade is for the entire
5000+ square foot home. The current 200amp service panel is completely
maxed out. I am in the process of finishing a 1500 square foot basement

of
which around 500 square feet are dedicated to the workshop. I have a
full
bath and media and other rooms, connections to the garage that need power
circuits which justify the additional service upgrade. Having lived in
homes that are under wired, the cost difference to get what will meet my
needs now and in the future is well worth the minimal increase in cost
for
the heavier wire, breakers, and panels.

For the workshop specifically I am installing a subpanel with a 100amp
circuit from the main panel to cover my needs in the workshop. Given I

have
a rotary phase converter that requires a 70-80amp breaker alone, along

with
the other 30 and 50amp circuits I will be running, I don't think this is

too
outrageous. To me, it is a lot cheaper to go on the high side now than
to
have to redo wiring later once the walls are closed in.



So I guess that the electric co is going to upgrade the feed to supply the
400 amps?? and install you your very own 100kva transformer?? ( not
likely:-) ( guess that they could install a 75kva can as it will put out
360
amps and they allow about 125% overload on their transformers for a short
time) So unless you get them to install at least a 75 kva transformer, you
as the other posters have pointed out you are NOT going to be able to draw
400 amps from the feed. They will also have to increase the wires size
for
your service drop from the transformer to your home.

William....

Well, I am mainly going by what the power company and certified electrician
told me to do. Most of the homes in the area in the 5000+ square feet range
are wired with 400amp service entrances as I am told. I will need a new
meter head (which the electric company will supply and install) and the
copper service entrance wires to the second 200amp main panel as well as the
conduit to get it inside and grounding.

Our house was a spec house and the builder decided to cut back on certain
things. They installed both boards for the 2 - 200amp service panels homes
of this size generally install, but only installed one 200amp service panel,
used all of the breakers except one in the main panel they installed. Not
sufficient breaker connections for me to finish out basement to say the
least. So to finish what the builder didn't do in the first place, I am
taking the home to 400amps of service so that boxes are similar in size and
will look proper when we go to sell the home in the future. Once installed,
I will only pay for the electric I use whether or not it is a 200, 400, or
for that matter a 1000amp (if there is such a thing) service.

Whether or not they already have or will install a separate 100kva system to
ensure I can actually draw the full 400amps is yet to be seen. (Thanks for
the heads up. I will be sure to ask the power company about it) I fully
believe that I will never come close to drawing the full 400amps, but given
the amount of electronics, appliances, and power tools, it's not worth the
aggrivation and safety issues of circuits poping when I overload a 200amp
service. Given that the first panel has over 800amps of breakers at this
point, I don't think that it is unreasonable to the service upgraded. They
are not going to take me to 250, my only option was to go to the 400amp
service which I am more that fine with.

I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about
what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would
understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous, but
to the contrary, I am installing what I believe (and people have agreed) is
a safe (will have inspected to ensure it is) and flexible electrical system
that will meet my needs now and in the future. Having all of my 240v
connections wired with a minimum of 10 gauge wire might be more than is
needed for a 15 or 20amp piece of equipment, but it will handle the load
fine. If you only use a maximum of 100amps in your home, do you down grade
the service entrance from 200amps to 100amps, I think not.

Having put additions on homes before, and gone through the sale process, I
want to make sure that things are done right for safety first, but then I
also want to take into account how it will affect the sale of the home. The
cost difference between a 125amp load center and the upgrade to the second
200amp panel as well as the wiring, receptacles and plugs just don't add up
to that much, especially from a safety factor.

David


Just for reference, my shop contains the following:
- table saw, dust collector, shaper, lathe, and air compressor (all

240V)
- band saw, radial arm saw, belt/disc sander, spindle sander, drill

press,
mortiser, jointer, planer, air filter, and an assortment of portable

tools
(all 120V)

SWMBO and my kids also enjoy woodworking, and it's not uncommon to have
two of
us in the shop at once, with two different machines *plus* the dust
collector
and air filter in operation simultaneously.

And the whole thing (except lights) is fed from a subpanel on a 60A

feed.
That
subpanel *also* feeds the washer, [gas] dryer, and electric stove

(240V).


[snip]

I guess I am confused with your reference to a pigtail. In my
understanding, a pigtail is used inside the junction / receptacle box
to
connect multiple wires to a single terminal connection. Are you

referring
to the plug ends I spoke about? If not, did you make short "pigtail"
connection that would change the plug configuration of your equipment

plug
to the configuration of the receptacle so that you didn't need to cut

and
rewire the plug ends of the equipment power cords?

He's talking about a short extension cord, with the plug end matching

the
receptacle in the wall, and the receptacl end matching the plug on the
equipment. This is, of course, an even *greater* unnecessary
expenditure
of
money and effort than the plug replacement that you propose, and
carries
exactly the same risks if the plug-and-receptacle configurations of the
pigtails are not matched correctly to the tools and the circuits. As

long
as
the configurations do not enable plugging a 30A tool into a 20A
circuit,
for
example, it's OK, but you *must* make sure of that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his
butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?







  #35   Report Post  
DL
 
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"Phisherman" wrote in message
news
Here's what I did...I asked around as to what plug is the most common
for 220v and installed electrical outlets that fit that plug. All my
220v tools have the same plug type and my shop has seven 220v.
receptacles. I'd forget about the twist lock mechanism--the 220v
plugs have enough friction that they stay in place. And when I need a
new plug, there's one available in more than one store.


I think that is a good idea. Thanks for the comments.

David




  #36   Report Post  
Keith Carlson
 
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"DL" wrote in message
news:Ksyae.4804$lz1.333@lakeread01...

I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about
what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would
understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous,
but


David, I think a lot of guys are just looking at the plan for 400A service
and scratching their heads wondering "why". Because most of us try to things
in a safe, yet cost-effective way, I think it's natural for people to
question it.

5000 sq ft is a big house. But there are plenty of homes around me in the
3000-3500 sq ft range, being built with 200A service. And probably a bigger
factor than the size: are there more people living in the 5000 sq. ft. house
than a 3000? More concurrent use of electrical power?

The electrician who came out to inspect my last add-on circuit told me most
of the newer houses with 200A panels will probably never even see 100A being
drawn. They install a 200A service panel mainly to have more spaces for
breakers. (and I'm assuming the cost for a 200A main breaker and the larger
wire size in a new installation is relatively small).

But what's the cost of upgrading from 200A to 400A service? Compared to
another solution like two 200A panels to make room for more
circuits/breakers? Someone else's advice about a load calculation is right
on the money. That's the starting point, and I'd be surprised if the
electrician hasn't done it. If it were my money, I'd want to see the
reasoning behind his recommendation.

Just my opinion.


  #37   Report Post  
DL
 
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"Keith Carlson" wrote in message
news:TSCae.11155$c24.1210@attbi_s72...

"DL" wrote in message
news:Ksyae.4804$lz1.333@lakeread01...

I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about
what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would
understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous,
but


David, I think a lot of guys are just looking at the plan for 400A service
and scratching their heads wondering "why". Because most of us try to
things in a safe, yet cost-effective way, I think it's natural for people
to question it.


You make a good point, but cost effective can mean different things to
different people. The $400 I was quoted a year ago to upgrade the service
doesn't seem excessive to me. Even if it was around $1000 I would still do
it most likely as it brings my home into spec with similar homes in my area.

5000 sq ft is a big house. But there are plenty of homes around me in the
3000-3500 sq ft range, being built with 200A service. And probably a
bigger factor than the size: are there more people living in the 5000 sq.
ft. house than a 3000? More concurrent use of electrical power?

It all goes to what people do in their homes. I know people that live in
their homes and don't do anything with them, but I am not that type.

The electrician who came out to inspect my last add-on circuit told me
most of the newer houses with 200A panels will probably never even see
100A being drawn. They install a 200A service panel mainly to have more
spaces for breakers. (and I'm assuming the cost for a 200A main breaker
and the larger wire size in a new installation is relatively small).

Most people won't, but some will and for a limited cost that I am personally
willing to pay, I would rather have the extra capacity.

But what's the cost of upgrading from 200A to 400A service? Compared to
another solution like two 200A panels to make room for more
circuits/breakers? Someone else's advice about a load calculation is right
on the money. That's the starting point, and I'd be surprised if the
electrician hasn't done it. If it were my money, I'd want to see the
reasoning behind his recommendation.

The real cost IMO is the cost of the electrician's time to upgrade the
service to 400amps and his materials, $400. Also, I would pay around $200
for the electrician to bond a second 200amp service panel to the existing
200amp panel if I just wanted to add more capacity for breakers. The
electric company supplies and installs the new meter head, the electrician
just needs to connect the service to the panel I already installed.

The circuit analysis plans that circuits are not always under load,
otherwise I wouldn't have close to 800amps of breakers in my existing 200amp
panel. I will be adding some higher amp usage equipment in the workshop,
garage, and moderate load equipment in my entertainment room that have a
strong potential of being under load at the same time, that along with the
other existing loads that can potentially come into play, I think the
decision for me is a good one. Remember, I only have to need 201amps for
the main to kick. Most people will never come close to that level.

As I stated before, they won't charge me for current I don't use. The power
company has no real vested interest in doing this other than to sell me more
electricity if I need it. Why would they go to the expense of adding a new
400amp meter head to my home if they were saw no potential whatsoever of
selling me beyond 200amps of service at a given time? The electrician was
contacted after speaking with the power company and the county so it is not
a situation of an electrician trying to scam some unnecessary work.

Also, if I find out 6 months from not that I do require more capacity, it
will be much more expensive than what I am doing now.Personal experience
plays a role as well. Having lived in a home that was underpowered, I am
not willing to take the chance.

I think it is fair that people that obviously know more than I do about
electricity would question what I am doing, but it comes across as if I am
going to spend others money which I am not. Same types of discussions go on
for equipment all the time. It goes to what a person is comfortable with.
For certain equipment I am fine with the Grizzly products, but for others I
want a different level of quality. Its what I will be comfortable with.

I truly appreciate everyone's perspectives and insights which help me make a
decision, but the bottom line decision is mine, and I have to be comfortable
with it.

Thanks,

David

Just my opinion.



  #38   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article TSCae.11155$c24.1210@attbi_s72,
Keith Carlson wrote:

"DL" wrote in message
news:Ksyae.4804$lz1.333@lakeread01...

I guess what puzzles me with all the questions I have been getting about
what I am planning to do will cost more or it is not necessary. I would
understand it if I was going to do something that potentially dangerous,
but


David, I think a lot of guys are just looking at the plan for 400A service
and scratching their heads wondering "why". Because most of us try to things
in a safe, yet cost-effective way, I think it's natural for people to
question it.

5000 sq ft is a big house. But there are plenty of homes around me in the
3000-3500 sq ft range, being built with 200A service. And probably a bigger
factor than the size: are there more people living in the 5000 sq. ft. house
than a 3000? More concurrent use of electrical power?

The electrician who came out to inspect my last add-on circuit told me most
of the newer houses with 200A panels will probably never even see 100A being
drawn.


Make it 150A and I'll agree. but hitting 100A is all too easy nowadays, when
you start considering all the kitchen small appliances, personal computers
and especially _printers_, and all the other 'consumer electronics' to be
found in a home. individually, they don't draw a great lot, but there are
so _many_ of them. Example, I've got *sixteen* 'counter-top' appliances
in the kitchen. that's admittedly on the high side, because I am a bit of
'gadget happy' type, and, for example have two microwaves. Given that set-up
it's not unreasonable that I might have 6-7 of them in simultaneous operation.
at in excess of a kilowatt each. Plus maybe the dishwasher. Let the
refrigerator and/or freezer decide to cycle, and I could hit 50A @ 240
just in the kitchen. Without considering a possible electric stove.
Add the air-conditioning, and it doesn't take 'hardly anything' additional
to go over 100A.

They install a 200A service panel mainly to have more spaces for
breakers. (and I'm assuming the cost for a 200A main breaker and the larger
wire size in a new installation is relatively small).


The incremental difference in the cost of the panel and main breaker is
under $100 U.S. The cost of larger feed-wire from the transformer is maybe
$1/ft. I doubt the total cost increment would exceed $1,000.

But what's the cost of upgrading from 200A to 400A service? Compared to
another solution like two 200A panels to make room for more
circuits/breakers? Someone else's advice about a load calculation is right
on the money. That's the starting point, and I'd be surprised if the
electrician hasn't done it. If it were my money, I'd want to see the
reasoning behind his recommendation.



I find it _not_at_all_ difficult to believe -- i.e. that it *is* entirely
reasonable -- that 200A would be insufficient for a property of that scale.

Postulate Central A/C, that's gonna be an easy 70A (at 240) right there.
just for the compressor. (I grew up in a circa 1600 sq ft house, that had
two-zone fully independent HVAC -- the AC for _each_ zone was a dedicated
40A circuit for the compressor; plus there was an additional 20A (120) A/C
for a room that was exposed on 5 sides.)

Throw in a couple of electric "major appliances", say a stove at 50A, and
a clothes dryer at 30A, and you've got an easy simultaneous load of
150A.

Now, lets add some other basic necessities:
1) The GFA furnace blowers, or circulating pumps
for a hot-water radiator system -- for a house
of that size, 15A (120v).

2) Washing Machine, to match the dryer 10A (120v)
3) Refrigerator 13A (120v)
4) separate freezer 13A (120v)
5) dishwasher 10A (120v)
6) garbage disposer 8A (120v)
7) trash compactor 8A (120v)
8) Microwave oven 10A (120v)

There is roughly 90A at 120, or 45A at 240
We've now got a total load of 195A at 240.

And it is _entirely_ within the realm of reason that *all* those devices
could be running simultaneously.

Without exceeding a 200A utility feed, you've got whopping _10A_at_120_ left,
to run _everything_else_ in the house. Twelve 100-watt light bulbs.

You get a little more breathing room if the stove and clothes dryer are
gas-fired.

For a 'demonstrator' model where, for example, major appliances that
are present will _not_ be being used, I can see a developer 'cheaping out'
with only 200A service.

Start adding in power demands for a 'serious' shop, and there's no doubt
that 200A service is inadequate.

Yeah, 400A looks like overkill, but if it's the "next step up" from 200,
then that _is_ what you do.

If 250, or 300 service was available, it might have been sufficient, but
'why take the chance'. probably 75% of the cost of re-doing things is
in the labor. if materials for 400A cost _twice_ what 250A materials
do, it's only circa 10% of the total bill.

This is called "*CHEAP* insurance" Particularly if amortized over the
expected lifetime of the work.




  #39   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article ,
Wes Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:39:16 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

[snip]
To do otherwise would make it possible
to, for example, plug a tool drawing 40A into a receptacle rated for only 20A,
on a circuit that can safely carry only 30A.


What's a 20A receptacle doing on a circuit fused at 30A?


In engineering terminology, the technical description for that situation is
"a mistake".

Such things _do_ happen in the real world. wry grin


Remember:
"There is no such thing as a 'fool-proof' system. For any attempt at
devising such a system there is a *sufficiently*determined* fool that
is capable of breaking it."


The 'pigtail' system described _can_ be deployed "safely", *IF* you follow
a few simple rules.
1) All the in-wall wiring, breakers, and receptacles are rated for the
draw of the highest-powered piece of equipment to be used.
2) The breaker has a load rating that is no higher than the minimum of
the wiring rating, or the receptacle rating.
3) The wall receptacle rating is no higher than the wiring rating.
4) the 'pigtails' *always* have an 'equipment-side' fitting that is rated
no higher than that of the 'wall-side' fitting.

If rule #1 is followed religiously, then 'strictly speaking', rule #3 is not
necessary. There is nothing 'unsafe' about using higher-rated connectors for
a lower-rated circuit *AS*LONG*AS* the circuit rating is not exceeded. There
is a risk that 'at a later date', something will be introduced that _does_
exceed the circuit rating, with 'unfortunate' effect. This potential "down
the road" problem is avoided by using 'right-sized' connectors.

  #40   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article 2o_9e.3906$lz1.1060@lakeread01,
DL wrote:
I am curious as to what others have done for receptacles that are going to
be used with different equipment that have different plug configurations.


[[.. munch ..]]

Your approach _is_ entirely rational and reasonable.

One thing I would suggest considering. "safety cords" (aka 'strain reliefs')
across the connections, _whichever_ kind of connector you end up using.

Where cords are subject to movement, twisting, etc. "Twist-Lok" connectors
_can_ come unplugged unexpectedly. Their primary 'advantage' is that they
do *not* disconnect when subjected to a _straight-line_ pull. The secondary
advantage is that they tolerate _large_numbers_ of connect/disconnect cycles
better than "straight blade" types.

Something as simple as a piece of string/twine, knotted around the cord
just behind the plug, and attached to a hook next to the outlet. Makes
it _really_ difficult for the plug to 'fall out' of the socket. grin

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