I want to lay down 3/4" hardwood floor in my livingroom, after removing
the 5/8" particle board underlayment which was used for carpeting, Im
left with 1/2" plywood subfloor.

My question, Is the 1/2" plywood subfloor thick enough to lay the 3/4"
wood floor on?

The floor will run in the opposite direction of the joists for strengh.

Advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Gil

Gil,

Are you sure you only have a 1/2" subfloor? That just seems too thin - the
floors would give when you walk on them. Plus, I wonder if it meets
building code.

To answer your question, I would recommend putting down another layer of
plywood - you must have a smooth surface with no hills and valleys and gaps
for the hardwood to sit on. Most underlay will require at least a layer of
luan on top. In your case, I'm thinking you'll need a 1/2" luan or other
similar smooth surface layer.

I did my kitchen floor a few years ago. I had a 3/4" tongue and groove
underlay that was pretty rough. I put 1/4" luan on top of that, then put 6
mil poly over that as a vapor barrier. Then the 3/4" solid hardwood.

When you put the hardwood down, don't scrimp on the installation. Rent one
of those big hoss pneumatic staplers. It comes with a big mallet to knock
the boards tight and set the staple. Whack the crap out of the stapler with
that mallet. I have 3 or 4 places where I didn't get the boards tight
because I wasn't paying attention and hit it too lightly. It's not real
noticeable except during those real dry winter days.

Bob


"gil" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to lay down 3/4" hardwood floor in my livingroom, after removing
the 5/8" particle board underlayment which was used for carpeting, Im
left with 1/2" plywood subfloor.

My question, Is the 1/2" plywood subfloor thick enough to lay the 3/4"
wood floor on?

The floor will run in the opposite direction of the joists for strengh.

Advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Gil

Bob, thanks for the advice.

It is 1/2" subflooring. I spoke with an installer today, his logic
was... "if there was 5/8" particle board underlayment on top of the
1/2" subfloor, the 3/4" hardwood T&G on top of the 1/2" subfloor will
be even stronger than before and you even gain an extra 1/8 of an
inch", but I still like to hear oppinions from others that have done
the job.

No doubt the thicker the subflooring, the better, but I dont want to
overkill if I dont have to.

"gil" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to lay down 3/4" hardwood floor in my livingroom, after removing
the 5/8" particle board underlayment which was used for carpeting, Im
left with 1/2" plywood subfloor.

My question, Is the 1/2" plywood subfloor thick enough to lay the 3/4"
wood floor on?

The floor will run in the opposite direction of the joists for strengh.

Advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Gil

I did what you describe using a Portanailer which pounds in big nasty barbed
nails. The half-inch plywood wasn't thick enough to hold the nails. I was
nailing three-quarter inch thick oak strips. This was in a kitchen with a
lot of foot traffic. The flooring became loose in places after about six
months, so I pulled it up and put down another layer of half-inch plywood.
This was really truly a pain in the ass. Put something more substantial
under that hardwood. You can go to www.nofma.org , the wood flooring org.
for lots of good info.

good luck
das

Das...I forgot to mention the installer i spoke with recommended
nailing through the joists when possible over the 1/2".

Im just trying to get the most information I can before getting
started, and I have noticed in all cases at least 3/4" subfloor is
recommended.

Thanks for the info,

Gil

What 3/4" flooting are you putting down? If you ae workign with oak
there are a few grades. Length is part of the grade. If you install a
lot of short length boards then the 1/2" is going to be a light. If
you are nailing over trusses the floor may be more even than nailing
over joists. Especially if the joists have a lot of crown. I recall
years ago th ebuilders did 1/2" plywood all over the house and the oak
went over that. The carpet areas, the vinyl and tile floors were
doubled up. When I did my floors I was aware of at least three
grades. Select, common and cabin. Select is supposed to be pretty knot
free which it was. The other grades have more knots and maybe had more
short pieces. It appears that my recollection of cabin grade may be
left over from Color Tile days where the parquet floors had a cabin
grade. http://www.nofma.org/gradingrules1.htm

As the other person mentioned the floor manufacturers web site it a
great place for reference materials.

"gil" wrote:

Das...I forgot to mention the installer i spoke with recommended
nailing through the joists when possible over the 1/2".

Im just trying to get the most information I can before getting
started, and I have noticed in all cases at least 3/4" subfloor is
recommended.

Thanks for the info,

Gil


Jim B.

What 3/4" flooting are you putting down? If you ae workign with
oak
there are a few grades. Length is part of the grade. If you install a
lot of short length boards then the 1/2" is going to be a light. If
you are nailing over trusses the floor may be more even than nailing
over joists. Especially if the joists have a lot of crown. I recall
years ago th ebuilders did 1/2" plywood all over the house and the oak
went over that. The carpet areas, the vinyl and tile floors were
doubled up. When I did my floors I was aware of at least three
grades. Select, common and cabin. Select is supposed to be pretty knot
free which it was. The other grades have more knots and maybe had more
short pieces. It appears that my recollection of cabin grade may be
left over from Color Tile days where the parquet floors had a cabin
grade

Jim....so you're saying if I were to use "select" oak which you get
longer planks and lay it over the 1/2" subfloor (providing that I nail
it through the joists as much as possible) I should be ok?

I am worried about pieces that will end between the joists will have
movement and eventually squeak or worse become loose.

gil wrote:
Das...I forgot to mention the installer i spoke with recommended
nailing through the joists when possible over the 1/2".

Good advice, but watch out for the nails holding the plywood to the joists.

Barry

If I'm correct in the old days floors were built with 1/2 inch running one
way and 5/8 inch on top of that in the oppisite direction. Now days
everything is 3/4 inch t&g. Like everybody else here, my advice is to go
with another layer of at least 5/8 inch ply and run the long side oppsite of
the 1/2 inch if possible. Also, you may want to consider using a porta
nailer manual nailer. Having to manually hit the plunger a couple of times
not only sets the nails but does a nice job of tightening up the joints.
Good Luck.

BG

"gil" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to lay down 3/4" hardwood floor in my livingroom, after removing
the 5/8" particle board underlayment which was used for carpeting, Im
left with 1/2" plywood subfloor.

My question, Is the 1/2" plywood subfloor thick enough to lay the 3/4"
wood floor on?

The floor will run in the opposite direction of the joists for strengh.

Advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Gil

I've installed oak flooring with a manual floor nailer, but much prefer an
air driven one. Another useful tip mentioned earlier by other responder is
the quality of the flooring. I am not sure if wood is graded solely on its
appearance, but also for true and square of the planking. While my
pre-finished cheap stuff did not have many knots, a lot of pieces in the
package were warped or bowed. For a good work out, try forcing curved short
lengths of oak planking onto the tongues the corresponding strips already
nailed to the floor. One quickly realizes just how rigid 3/4" oak planking
can be. In short, be sure that the planking is reasonably straight and
level or you will wish that you'd never begun the project. Another concern,
that is hard avoid when buying cartons of pre-finished wood, is getting
packages consisting of just short lengths of flooring. Sometimes a package
will contain nothing but cutoffs that are all neatly stacked in the box by
the manufacturer. Granted a few short pieces are fine, but boxes full make
for a choppy looking floor.


"B a r r y" wrote in message
...
gil wrote:
Das...I forgot to mention the installer i spoke with recommended
nailing through the joists when possible over the 1/2".

Good advice, but watch out for the nails holding the plywood to the
joists.

Barry

"greasy snipe" wrote in message
the 1/2 inch if possible. Also, you may want to consider using a porta
nailer manual nailer. Having to manually hit the plunger a couple of times
not only sets the nails but does a nice job of tightening up the joints.

How much force is needed to use a porta manual nailer? Think it could be
used from a sitting position? (e.g.. a wheelchair) From a sitting position,
it would be all arm motion hitting the nailer without any body motion to add
to the force hitting the nailer.

Old days! no way. The subfloor of 1" material ran
at 45 degrees to the joists. Sometimes a second
floor of 1" material ran at right angles to the
bottom layer. The finished wood floor on top of
that ran mostly at a right angle to the joists are
at least parallel with one of the walls, except
for parquets. Oh, they didn't have plywood or
chipboard in the Old Days.

greasy snipe wrote:
If I'm correct in the old days floors were built with 1/2 inch running one
way and 5/8 inch on top of that in the oppisite direction. Now days
everything is 3/4 inch t&g. Like everybody else here, my advice is to go
with another layer of at least 5/8 inch ply and run the long side oppsite of
the 1/2 inch if possible. Also, you may want to consider using a porta
nailer manual nailer. Having to manually hit the plunger a couple of times
not only sets the nails but does a nice job of tightening up the joints.
Good Luck.

BG

"gil" wrote in message
oups.com...

I want to lay down 3/4" hardwood floor in my livingroom, after removing
the 5/8" particle board underlayment which was used for carpeting, Im
left with 1/2" plywood subfloor.

My question, Is the 1/2" plywood subfloor thick enough to lay the 3/4"
wood floor on?

The floor will run in the opposite direction of the joists for strengh.

Advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Gil

From my experience (used one twice), you pretty much have to operate the
manual nailer from a bent over position while standing. One hand is used to
hold the nailer against the tongue (by way of an extended handle at the top
of the nailer) and the other hand, of course, is needed to really swing the
mallet. I suspect that this would be difficult from a seated position and
the wheelchair frame could get in the way. However, this might be possible
if one were to use an air driven nailer because less force is involved with
the mallet hand. In either case, one would need an assistant in order to
get each plank fitted tightly over the tongue of a corresponding plank.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"greasy snipe" wrote in message
the 1/2 inch if possible. Also, you may want to consider using a porta
nailer manual nailer. Having to manually hit the plunger a couple of
times
not only sets the nails but does a nice job of tightening up the joints.

How much force is needed to use a porta manual nailer? Think it could be
used from a sitting position? (e.g.. a wheelchair) From a sitting
position,
it would be all arm motion hitting the nailer without any body motion to
add
to the force hitting the nailer.

Actually, in the old days, they didn't bother putting subfloor under
T&G flooring at all a lot of the time. The last house I lived in had
T&G YP upstairs & handhewn beams supporting it that were exposed. The
big problem we faced was dust sifting down. It was a mess, but solid.
All lengths ended on a joist, but since they were logs, you had 6 - 8".

It's been a while since I've done any flooring, but if it were me, I'd
make my decision based on the flooring. I'd want the flooring to all
end on a joist. If you're doing oak, you tend to get random lengths &
ending them on a joist is going to be impossible. You used to be able
to get Yellow Pine in full lengths & that would be possible to end on
joists & it's strong enough. Ditto with cherry.

Jim

Jim wrote:

Actually, in the old days, they didn't bother putting subfloor under
T&G flooring at all a lot of the time. The last house I lived in had
T&G YP upstairs & handhewn beams supporting it that were exposed. The
big problem we faced was dust sifting down. It was a mess, but solid.
All lengths ended on a joist, but since they were logs, you had 6 - 8".

The house I grew up in had T&G with no subfloor. This was in Florida, and
it was one of those houses that's up on brick posts with a crawlspace
under, not a concrete foundation like you find in New England and other
places where the water table can be counted on to be lower than the ground.

My Dad got the bright idea to put down some vinyl flooring in the front
entryway. The book he got said to stick it down but it seemed to be OK at
first and he decided not to. Then the first northeaster of the season hit
and the vinyl blew about four feet up into the air on the wind coming
through the cracks in the boards. He stuck it down after that.

He never did quite grasp the concept of "infiltration loss" though.

It's been a while since I've done any flooring, but if it were me, I'd
make my decision based on the flooring. I'd want the flooring to all
end on a joist. If you're doing oak, you tend to get random lengths &
ending them on a joist is going to be impossible. You used to be able
to get Yellow Pine in full lengths & that would be possible to end on
joists & it's strong enough. Ditto with cherry.

Jim

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

TEF wrote:
From my experience (used one twice), you pretty much have to operate the
manual nailer from a bent over position while standing. One hand is used to
hold the nailer against the tongue (by way of an extended handle at the top
of the nailer) and the other hand, of course, is needed to really swing the
mallet.

Air powered flooring nailers aren't much different. The main difference
is the hammer force. The air unit still needs a decent shot, as the
striking motion helps set the board. Air helps the nail drive be more
consistent.

I have a Porta-nails air unit and wouldn't trade it for the world.

Barry

It's been a while since I've done any flooring, but if it were me, I'd
make my decision based on the flooring. I'd want the flooring to all
end on a joist. If you're doing oak, you tend to get random lengths &
ending them on a joist is going to be impossible. You used to be able
to get Yellow Pine in full lengths & that would be possible to end on
joists & it's strong enough. Ditto with
cherry


Wouldn't it be great if the lengths of 3/4" flooring all ended right on
top of a joist?
You are right, that would be almost impossible I would think, I can
only imagine those pieces that end between the joists and placing the
leg of a heavy piece of furniture right on the soft spot.

I want to thank all you guys for the real good tips and I will take
them all into consideration when I make the decision.

Gil

gil wrote:
I can
only imagine those pieces that end between the joists and placing the
leg of a heavy piece of furniture right on the soft spot.

The toungues, grooves, and subfloor work together to spread out the
weight.

Barry

Re-floor with 1 1/8" thick, and 4' x 8' wide Sturdy Floor. This is a tongue
and groove wood product that prevents squeakin. You can find it at your
local building supply. I used it 15 years ago and still no squeaks. 8500
sq' two story full basement house with 6 kids running and jumping all the
time.

Jack

"gil" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to lay down 3/4" hardwood floor in my livingroom, after removing
the 5/8" particle board underlayment which was used for carpeting, Im
left with 1/2" plywood subfloor.

My question, Is the 1/2" plywood subfloor thick enough to lay the 3/4"
wood floor on?

The floor will run in the opposite direction of the joists for strengh.

Advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Gil

The Porta Nailer can't be used from a wheelchair. Also, I maybe shouldn't
have said "old days." My parents house built in the mid 70's had the 1/2
inch 5/8 inch I discussed. My house built in the early 90's and added on to
and renovated in 2002 is all 3/4 TG. I'm 35 so there is my perspective when
I say old days.
"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"greasy snipe" wrote in message
the 1/2 inch if possible. Also, you may want to consider using a porta
nailer manual nailer. Having to manually hit the plunger a couple of
times
not only sets the nails but does a nice job of tightening up the joints.

How much force is needed to use a porta manual nailer? Think it could be
used from a sitting position? (e.g.. a wheelchair) From a sitting
position,
it would be all arm motion hitting the nailer without any body motion to
add
to the force hitting the nailer.

"TEF" wrote in message news:tICdnUPFhO5QFMTfRVn-
From my experience (used one twice), you pretty much have to operate the
manual nailer from a bent over position while standing. One hand is used
to
hold the nailer against the tongue (by way of an extended handle at the
top
of the nailer) and the other hand, of course, is needed to really swing
the
mallet.

What about from an angle leaning over the side of the wheelchair? Don't
forget, from a sitting position, I'm close to a foot shorter than someone
who is standing. As well, I'm fully capable of leaning over far enough to
pick something up from the floor and I have a great deal of upper body
strength, so leaning over if needed isn't a problem. I guess I'm just
theorizing at this point. I'd never know for sure until I actually get my
hands on a porta-nailer and actually try it out.

In my first response on the subject of operating a manual nailer from a
wheelchair, I said that "I SUSPECT that this would be difficult from a
seated position". I wasn't ruling out the possibility. As the old saying
goes about "the proof of the pudding", so you could easily prove me wrong
and, indeed, I hope you do. A lot of respondents in this thread like the
manual nailers (vice the air driven ones), so perhaps I am wrong about them.
However, my recall of these was that one really had to pound on them in
order to tighten the floor and drive the nail. Moreover, when I watch
flooring being installed on TV (in one of those DIY-type shows), the
installers always seem to use air nailers.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"TEF" wrote in message news:tICdnUPFhO5QFMTfRVn-
From my experience (used one twice), you pretty much have to operate the
manual nailer from a bent over position while standing. One hand is
used
to
hold the nailer against the tongue (by way of an extended handle at the
top
of the nailer) and the other hand, of course, is needed to really swing
the
mallet.

What about from an angle leaning over the side of the wheelchair? Don't
forget, from a sitting position, I'm close to a foot shorter than someone
who is standing. As well, I'm fully capable of leaning over far enough to
pick something up from the floor and I have a great deal of upper body
strength, so leaning over if needed isn't a problem. I guess I'm just
theorizing at this point. I'd never know for sure until I actually get my
hands on a porta-nailer and actually try it out.

"Upscale" wrote:

"TEF" wrote in message news:tICdnUPFhO5QFMTfRVn-
From my experience (used one twice), you pretty much have to operate the
manual nailer from a bent over position while standing. One hand is used
to
hold the nailer against the tongue (by way of an extended handle at the
top
of the nailer) and the other hand, of course, is needed to really swing
the
mallet.

What about from an angle leaning over the side of the wheelchair? Don't
forget, from a sitting position, I'm close to a foot shorter than someone
who is standing. As well, I'm fully capable of leaning over far enough to
pick something up from the floor and I have a great deal of upper body
strength, so leaning over if needed isn't a problem. I guess I'm just
theorizing at this point. I'd never know for sure until I actually get my
hands on a porta-nailer and actually try it out.

When I installed my floor I was using my whole body for the task. I
used my left foot to hold the wood snug to the already nailed
flooring. Balancing on both legs, an arm to hold the pneumatic nailer
and another with a bunch of chest thrown in to swing the mallet firmly
to set the wood tight and actuate the nailer. It took a good while to
do the floor as it was. My intial set of the wood consisted of a quick
quality control look and then placement of the wood. A firm tap while
the foot was resting heavily on the wood to place it fairly tight. I
might have to reach 3 feet to the left to swing the mallet to set the
end tongue tight. My dad did a series of wedges when we fixed some
flooring in our old house. We nailed a scrap 2x4 on the floor. We
drove a wedge of scrap flooring against the bowing floor and the 2x4
to force the bow out.

I guess I am saying it was a full body experience. If you are used to
working in a chair then you probably know good tricks to work with
what you have. I sometimes do not work smart. ;-(

Jim B.

"Jim Behning" wrote in message

I guess I am saying it was a full body experience. If you are used to
working in a chair then you probably know good tricks to work with
what you have. I sometimes do not work smart. ;-(

I suspect that everything you've said is probably correct. I just happen to
be one of those people that likes to do everything myself and don't like to
ask for help (unless it's asking a good looking woman to reach something for
me in the grocery store). I'm guessing that I can operate a porta-nailer
satisfactorily, but that I'll have a problem keeping the wood in place while
I'm nailing it down. I seem to remember a show on TV once where they were
using a type of ratcheting web clamp to keep the wood butted up tight while
it was being nailed down. If I ever do a floor, I'll probably end up getting
some buddies to help me and then spring for some beer after that.

Upscale wrote:

"Jim Behning" wrote in message

I guess I am saying it was a full body experience. If you are used to
working in a chair then you probably know good tricks to work with
what you have. I sometimes do not work smart. ;-(

I suspect that everything you've said is probably correct. I just happen
to
be one of those people that likes to do everything myself and don't like
to ask for help (unless it's asking a good looking woman to reach
something for me in the grocery store). I'm guessing that I can operate a
porta-nailer satisfactorily, but that I'll have a problem keeping the wood
in place while I'm nailing it down. I seem to remember a show on TV once
where they were using a type of ratcheting web clamp to keep the wood
butted up tight while it was being nailed down. If I ever do a floor, I'll
probably end up getting some buddies to help me and then spring for some
beer after that.

Maybe some kind of attachment to the chair to work as a "third hand", use
the inertia of yourself in the chair to apply force, and then use the brake
on the chair to hold things together while you nail?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On 9 Apr 2005 20:23:26 -0700, "gil" wrote:

Bob, thanks for the advice.

It is 1/2" subflooring. I spoke with an installer today, his logic
was... "if there was 5/8" particle board underlayment on top of the
1/2" subfloor, the 3/4" hardwood T&G on top of the 1/2" subfloor will
be even stronger than before and you even gain an extra 1/8 of an
inch", but I still like to hear oppinions from others that have done
the job.

No doubt the thicker the subflooring, the better, but I dont want to
overkill if I dont have to.



3/4" of hardwood T&G flooring is plenty strong enough without any
underlayment.

make sure the 1/2" ply that is there has a nice smooth level surface,
or it will make a bunch more work for you during installing and
finishing of the flooring, and may contribute to a squeaky floor
problem later on.

TEF wrote:
A lot of respondents in this thread like the
manual nailers (vice the air driven ones), so perhaps I am wrong about them.
However, my recall of these was that one really had to pound on them in
order to tighten the floor and drive the nail. Moreover, when I watch
flooring being installed on TV (in one of those DIY-type shows), the
installers always seem to use air nailers.

I suspect those folks haven't tried the air version. G

Barry