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  #121   Report Post  
HMFIC-1369
 
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Advancement in technology and materials and the shortage of time will
eliminate all the Artisans. On the History Channel they had a show about
WWII British Aircraft. They made wooden bombers not so much because of metal
shortages, but because they lacked experienced metal workers but had tons of
Cabinet and Furniture makers. Time takes it's toll! I do two things now, the
stock market and making furniture. I can increase my craftsmanship in both
areas and not worry about the appreciation factor. I also volunteer doing
Habitats for Humanity, I've worked on 6 homes so far and paid with some of
the greatest appreciation one can ever receive.



"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"HMFIC-1369" wrote in message

Originally, I had 4 contractors bid on doing the jobs with about 14 L.

Ft.
they all came back with 25K to 35K+ figures, (refacing was 18K w/2custom
cabinets). Honestly, I wasn't impressed with many of the Manufactured
cabinets, in all cases you could see where they cut costs to maximize
profits. So I examined building them, not cheap either. For quality

wood,
your still going to pay for it and then even hardware like handles and
drawer slides are getting costly. Creating a overly costly Kitchen is

easy
too, the challenge being in doing a mid-quality level ass cheap as

possible.
Ikea gave me the all Al/Glass cabinets I wanted, for the price of just
outsourcing 1 set of A/G doors (550.00).....

Even though I'm retired my time is more money then I first estimated and
over 50 I don't move as quick or lift as much. What I realized was that

very
few people when I sell the home will appreciate the cabinetry if I did

it
myself, and honestly most now would redo it they're way (and break my
heart). As they say location location, location......


I hear you loud and clear. I am 62 and starting to feel myself slow down
also, Besides being a lot of physical work, it's almost impossible to find
help that will stick around long enough to make hiring worthwhile. On this
particular job I had one hired hand for less than 3 days during the entire
fabrication and installation. (Leon, bless his heart, cut the end panels

to
spec for me and saved me both time and back.)

Cabinet work in this area, even in the most expensive homes these days, is
often done by folks from a desert climate who never saw wood until they

swam
over here. While some do fair work, as a general rule the workmanship is
appalling. The contrast between my cabinets and the rest of the cabinetry

in
the house speaks for itself _loudly_, and usually makes a good selling
point.

That said, I can still put a good amount of $$ in my pocket by doing some
kitchens myself, and at the same time add to the selling points of the

home.
I am also fortunate to be married to a veritable blood hound when it comes
to finding quality fixtures at closeout prices, and she does all the
interior decorating to boot.

Your remarks about "appreciation" are right on ... many folks don't know
quality from K-mart these days because they've never experienced it, and

the
current idea is that a kitchen cabinet's life is less than 15 years.

Makes it increasingly tougher to justify doing good work, commercially,

with
that prevailing wind ...

(I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world

class,
artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a damn shame
that is).


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05




  #122   Report Post  
HMFIC-1369
 
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"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Swingman" wrote in message

I hear you loud and clear. I am 62 and starting to feel myself slow down
also, Besides being a lot of physical work, it's almost impossible to

find
help that will stick around long enough to make hiring worthwhile. On

this
particular job I had one hired hand for less than 3 days during the

entire
fabrication and installation.


I agree that as you get older, something like kitchen construction gets
increasingly difficult. Even I'm starting to feel it at the tender age of
51. But what about the enjoyment part of it? Admittedly, if I was building

a
kitchen again, I don't have a wife urging me on to get the job finished,

but
I would be doing it for the sheer enjoyment of getting exactly what I
wanted. And later on, the pride I'd feel when I was showing it off to
friends and family.


An upstairs water pipe, busted over the kitchen, so it wasn't something I
chose to do for a hobby or for enjoyment.

I enjoy every aspect of Construction but not every stage. Demolition, maybe
best for getting out aggression, there is still a lot of **** to shovel.
They key to your point is the same as mine, we just took different paths. My
wife is Chinese, so color and materials (Feng Shui) are as important as the
quality of construction. I can cut tiles and some stones, but I couldn't
make the Silestone countertop or make the aluminum and glass doors (well I
could have but time, tools and material, make it more difficult and less
cost effective). So I made some trade offs, since the doors are full faced,
making the maple replacments for the 5 cabinets without glass doors, will
provide me with enough pride factor. Don't get me wrong I also enjoyed the
planning and design a great deal, but I also take a great deal of enjoyment
more so with the money I saved. This alone will buy me a new table saw, a
used motorcycle and two flat screens one plasma and one lcd TV's and still
have beer money and the rest gets re-invested....So the enjoment factor
grows.

But honestly if your looking at doing good work, pride, having enjoment and
getting whole family's to smile. I'd recommend Habitats for Humanity. I
worked on Wall St. for a good many years, the wife continues too. On 9/11, I
worked across from the WTC and she worked WTC II 70th floor, after that I
lost complete interest in the Street, and she buried herself into her work.
Habitats, I found to be therapeutic for us and I got to learn with hands on
from some sharp Craftsman on doing everything from building rock walls and
foundations all the way up to roofing and chimney brickwork. You wouldn't
believe the people you meet and work with everyone from Jon Corzine and his
son, to Joe Schmuck even met Jimmy Carter....every walk of life, race color
and creed. For just a few weekends you work as hard and as much as you want!

There are also two things I won't do anymore sheetrocking and spackle! After
I remodel the upstairs Bath.... I'll kick myself in the ass for not learning
from doing the kitchen


  #123   Report Post  
Swingman
 
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"HMFIC-1369" wrote in message

getting whole family's to smile. I'd recommend Habitats for Humanity.


Good outfit ... to whom, at the end of every project, we donate excess trim,
siding, PT lumber, and all manner of materials. My hat's off to you for both
your contributions.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05


  #124   Report Post  
HMFIC-1369
 
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and to you too.... They survive on the donated materials, we had a great
laugh and a good time when a local vendor donated a Jacuzzi which we
installed in a retirement home in Conn.





"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"HMFIC-1369" wrote in message

getting whole family's to smile. I'd recommend Habitats for Humanity.


Good outfit ... to whom, at the end of every project, we donate excess

trim,
siding, PT lumber, and all manner of materials. My hat's off to you for

both
your contributions.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05




  #125   Report Post  
Swingman
 
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"Swingman" wrote in message news:...
Finally got around to taking pictures this morning ... for all practical
purposes this one is ready to fire up and maybe cook some gumbo:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects7.htm


.... and I added my "20/20 Hindsight Department" remarks to the completed
project today in case anyone is taking notes.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05




  #126   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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"Swingman" wrote in
:
snip
(I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world
class, artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a
damn shame that is).


That, and bad knees.

Patriarch,
glucosamine and Advil...
  #127   Report Post  
nospambob
 
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An anesthesiologist commented after looking at the meds list I showed
her that glucosamine works much better when MSM is taken as well.
The brand of glocos I buy now has MSM included.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:04:58 -0500, Patriarch
wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in
:
snip
(I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world
class, artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a
damn shame that is).


That, and bad knees.

Patriarch,
glucosamine and Advil...


  #128   Report Post  
Tom Watson
 
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:13:55 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:



Your remarks about "appreciation" are right on ... many folks don't know
quality from K-mart these days because they've never experienced it, and the
current idea is that a kitchen cabinet's life is less than 15 years.

Makes it increasingly tougher to justify doing good work, commercially, with
that prevailing wind ...

(I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world class,
artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a damn shame
that is).



Let me start by saying that your kitchen is positively immaculate,
Swing. Well conceived and well executed.

But, I did not get out of the game for a lack of appreciation, I got
out for a lack of stamina.

I wasn't old but my knees were, and my back.

I'd have stayed in if they had.

I've been sitting on my ass mostly for the past eighteen months and my
joints don't hurt much anymore.

But my gut and ass have gotten bigger.

I probably carry twenty pounds of fat that I didn't have two years
ago.

When I first went onto the shop floor at my new job to look at
work,checking for conformance to specifications, the mechanics hid
from me, like they would from any clipboard carrying sonofabitch.

Now they call me up and ask me for advice.

I'm pretty satisfied with that.

I reckon it's a sort of appreciation.

As far as actual cabinetmaking goes, I've cut out the parts for my
Goddard-Townsend Kneeholes, and selected the appropriate curly cherry
for the drawer fronts, which shall be carved, with great trepidation
and joy, into a simulacrum of the shells that I have seen in my dreams
for years.

And I don't have to worry a lick about when it gets done.

I didn't even tell my wife that I was working on them.

My sense of appreciation comes from inside of me, as I suspect it does
in all good mechanics.

When I was a carpenter, I didn't expect the contractor to tell me what
a nice job I'd done on cutting in the Baldwin lock and hanging the
entry door; I knew that the cheap ******* had hired me because I was
one of about four people that he knew who could do the same thing.

And I happened to answer the phone first.

I loved and revered my trade as a carpenter and I did the same as a
cabinetmaker. You ask Tommy Plamman about this and he will say the
same.

The world has moved on. You are right in saying that we do not have
as large a base of people who can appreciate good work - but a good
mechanic has already solved that within himself.

He knows that he is doing it good and right and that is how he was
taught and that is how he does his work.

It is not really the appreciation from outside that drives a good
mechanic - it is the memory of those that he learned from, and the
desire to earn the respect of those mechanics who are no longer even
alive, that drives them.

To be accounted "a good mechanic" by those who still know what that
means - is enough.

I mean that - even if your judges are long dead - their approval is
enough.



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
  #129   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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Tom Watson wrote in
:

snip of a good piece of insight
He knows that he is doing it good and right and that is how he was
taught and that is how he does his work.

It is not really the appreciation from outside that drives a good
mechanic - it is the memory of those that he learned from, and the
desire to earn the respect of those mechanics who are no longer even
alive, that drives them.

To be accounted "a good mechanic" by those who still know what that
means - is enough.

I mean that - even if your judges are long dead - their approval is
enough.


My son courted and married a wonderful young woman, the daughter of an
old school union carpenter in the commercial construction trades, in and
about Oakland, CA. A skilled man, whose work had been hard on his back
and knees as well. Seems falling from a roof will change your stamina
some.

What Mark knew about me at first was that I was a necktie wearing
management type who drove a fancy pickup truck, and he was a bit
suspicious of management. When he got the chance to see some of the
furniture I'd built (none of it in the Goddard Townsend class, but
still...), he figured I was probably OK. When he started talking about
low angle adjustable block planes, and I gave him one of mine, LV's
best, he was pretty sure I at least knew tools a little.

Last fall, he brought me one of his father's old Stanley #7 handplanes.
I guess I passed his test.

Our shared grandaughter is three months old now, and as cute as any I've
ever seen.

Thanks for the post, Tom.

Patriarch
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