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Default Wood Floor Question

I have a wood floor to install,
The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak.
Now I understand acclimation and such.
On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years,
and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate
pre-finished wood flooring.
When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it.
Who or what is the best practice?
john
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 07:24:31 -0800, jloomis wrote:

I have a wood floor to install,
The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak.
Now I understand acclimation and such.
On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years,
and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate
pre-finished wood flooring.
When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it.
Who or what is the best practice?
john


I would acclimate it, better safe than sorry, at the worst acclimating the
flooring would do nothing.

basilisk
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On 12/12/2012 9:24 AM, jloomis wrote:
I have a wood floor to install,
The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak.
Now I understand acclimation and such.
On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years,
and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to
acclimate pre-finished wood flooring.
When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it.
Who or what is the best practice?


Acclimate ...

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Default Wood Floor Question


"jloomis" wrote in message
...
I have a wood floor to install,
The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak.
Now I understand acclimation and such.
On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years,
and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate
pre-finished wood flooring.
When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it.
Who or what is the best practice?
john


If it's prefinished solid wood flooring acclimate it.... If it's thick
laminate flooring it may still benefit from being acclimated if there were
significant climatic differences between the source storage conditions and
the conditions where it is to be installed. Either way, opening the bundles
and letting the flooring acclimate for at least a couple days will not hurt!

John


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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

Yes, I do agree. It was just that I had a window of opportunity to
do the floor before Christmas, and my client was antsy....
I calmed them down, and will wait until Jan. to install.
That way the wood will be allowed to accrue the ambient temp, and moisture
of the
house, and hopefully work out just fine.
john
thanks for the notes

"jloomis" wrote in message ...

I have a wood floor to install,
The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak.
Now I understand acclimation and such.
On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years,
and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate
pre-finished wood flooring.
When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it.
Who or what is the best practice?
john



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On 12/12/2012 3:06 PM, jloomis wrote:
Yes, I do agree. It was just that I had a window of opportunity to
do the floor before Christmas, and my client was antsy....
I calmed them down, and will wait until Jan. to install.
That way the wood will be allowed to accrue the ambient temp, and
moisture of the
house, and hopefully work out just fine.
john
thanks for the notes


Add my vote for "acclimate" to the rest, John. Makes no sense no to do so.

That said, I don't know that I'd worry about leaving it stacked to
acclimate more than a couple of day (assuming it hadn't been stored in
the bottom of their fish pondg)

Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't necessarily
mean that he was doing it correctly. When had the slab for my
garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop portion.
The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was totally
unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh, right!


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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't
necessarily mean that he was doing it correctly.


That is the quintensential non-argument. Just because he's done it dosen't
mean he was doing it correctly - what does that mean? If he has had no
problems, then he has done it every bit as correctly as anything you would
suggest. After all - just because your suggestions have been around for a
long time does not mean they are correct. What else do we go on, except for
experience? Why do we look to people like Karl and Leon for their
experiences? Yet - you summarily dismiss this contractor that you don't
even know.

When had the slab
for my garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop
portion. The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was
totally unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh,
right!


You might want to ask him more about what he was speaking about. There are
way too many old wives tales about how things should be done, which hold no
water, than there are real and factual practices. If your concete
contractor is as incompetent as you allude he is, why in the hell did you
use him? But - it does make a good usenet story, doesn't it?

--

-Mike-



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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete.
I agree.
My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood flooring.
He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc.
He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary....
So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an
experienced floor person,
I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm
I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas......
Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let the
floor acclimate, and work
after Christmas.
john

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
.com...

On 12/12/2012 3:06 PM, jloomis wrote:
Yes, I do agree. It was just that I had a window of opportunity to
do the floor before Christmas, and my client was antsy....
I calmed them down, and will wait until Jan. to install.
That way the wood will be allowed to accrue the ambient temp, and
moisture of the
house, and hopefully work out just fine.
john
thanks for the notes


Add my vote for "acclimate" to the rest, John. Makes no sense no to do so.

That said, I don't know that I'd worry about leaving it stacked to
acclimate more than a couple of day (assuming it hadn't been stored in
the bottom of their fish pondg)

Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't necessarily
mean that he was doing it correctly. When had the slab for my
garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop portion.
The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was totally
unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh, right!

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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

You are correct here.
Yes, my friend, "actually brother-in-law" installed "high End" floor
systems,
and none of them are a problem.
I was surprised by his answer that with pre-finished oak, 3/4" you do not
need to acclimate it!
I was suspect, and reading advice in online manuals, they all say,
acclimate.
Then when I thought about it, the wood needs to be dry before finishing it.
right?
And the wood had gone through its movements. right?
And unless the wood was stored in a pond, or a damp garage in the must and
mold, it should be fine. right?
He said the only problem with installing un-acclimated wood is when you
install unfinished wood flooring.
Now the more I think about this, the more I believe him.
I tell you, I never thought I would get so many opinions, and the one that
sticks is the one from a person
who has installed thousands of sq. ft.
hummmm????
john

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't
necessarily mean that he was doing it correctly.


That is the quintensential non-argument. Just because he's done it dosen't
mean he was doing it correctly - what does that mean? If he has had no
problems, then he has done it every bit as correctly as anything you would
suggest. After all - just because your suggestions have been around for a
long time does not mean they are correct. What else do we go on, except for
experience? Why do we look to people like Karl and Leon for their
experiences? Yet - you summarily dismiss this contractor that you don't
even know.

When had the slab
for my garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop
portion. The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was
totally unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh,
right!


You might want to ask him more about what he was speaking about. There are
way too many old wives tales about how things should be done, which hold no
water, than there are real and factual practices. If your concete
contractor is as incompetent as you allude he is, why in the hell did you
use him? But - it does make a good usenet story, doesn't it?

--

-Mike-


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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

jloomis wrote:
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete.
I agree.
My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood
flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods,
laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not
necessary....
So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an
experienced floor person,
I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm
I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas......
Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to
let the floor acclimate, and work
after Christmas.


Be very careful who/what you consider to be the "pros" here. There are far
more non-pros here than there are pros. Even within the ranks of the pros,
there is far less factual information behind their recommendations than real
fact. On the other hand - there are those who have detemined some best
practices, and share those - complete with consdierations that may or may
not apply to your location. Be wary of the "experts" that attempt to simply
throw out an answer.

--

-Mike-





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On 12/13/2012 12:10 PM, jloomis wrote:
Then when I thought about it, the wood needs to be dry before finishing
it. right?
And the wood had gone through its movements. right?
And unless the wood was stored in a pond, or a damp garage in the must
and mold, it should be fine. right?
He said the only problem with installing un-acclimated wood is when you
install unfinished wood flooring.
Now the more I think about this, the more I believe him.
I tell you, I never thought I would get so many opinions, and the one
that sticks is the one from a person
who has installed thousands of sq. ft.
hummmm????


No hmmm about it, John ... he may know floors, but he apparently does
not fully understand WOOD.

The following is an absolutely unarguable FACT:

"Finish will slow the rate of moisture exchange, it will not stop it.
Material finished on all surfaces will expand or contract at a slower
rate than raw wood, but finished wood will eventually acclimate to EMC
levels."

"Finishes cannot change EMC; they affect only the rate at which
absorption and desorption occur".

The above quoteS are almost verbatim from the US Forest Products Laboratory.

So, as I said before, and if you want to do the job properly ...
"acclimate".

(as a GC who pays attention to such details, I've caused, and bought,
many thousands of board feet of flooring of all types to be installed;
stubbed my toe once or twice, but never over the same issue more than
once ... and I routinely acclimate pre-finished flooring ... it's simply
cheaper in the long run to do so) AND:

!!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!!

G

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

On 12/13/2012 09:03 AM, jloomis wrote:
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete.
I agree.
My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood
flooring.
He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc.
He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary....
So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an
experienced floor person,
I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm
I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas......
Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let
the floor acclimate, and work
after Christmas.


The whole point of acclimation is so any expansion/shrinkage due to a
large variation in the EMC can happen up front. If it's a floating
floor, I'd think a guy could probably lay 95% of it down, leaving just
the last few courses at the far edge undone. Then let it sit, and move
as it will. After a week, come back and finish up the remaining runs.

As long as there's plenty of room for expansion and the opportunity to
fill in if it shrinks I'd think you'd be good to go...

....Kevin
--
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Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
"In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car."
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On 12/13/2012 1:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
jloomis wrote:
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete.
I agree.
My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood
flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods,
laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not
necessary....
So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an
experienced floor person,
I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm
I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas......
Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to
let the floor acclimate, and work
after Christmas.


Be very careful who/what you consider to be the "pros" here. There are far
more non-pros here than there are pros.


John is likely one of the very few pro's here.

Even within the ranks of the pros,
there is far less factual information behind their recommendations than real
fact. On the other hand - there are those who have detemined some best
practices, and share those - complete with consdierations that may or may
not apply to your location. Be wary of the "experts" that attempt to simply
throw out an answer.


I give you +1 for this and another +1 for your previous answer. However,
I'm deducting 2 points for yellin at John for posting a picture that
actually did contain a tree, and not one post on this topic contained a
picture of anything tree related or not. No, now that I think about it
I'm deducting 3 points for that, so you are down 1:-)

As far as acclimation, I agree with the guy that manufactured and
installed floors for 30+ years, and more over, would ask, acclimate to
what? Winter? Summer, air on, air off? Exposed to sun, in the shade,
what exactly? I would worry more about where it was made, dried and
stored (rain forest/desert/down the road a bit) than if I left it alone
for a few days. Solid wood will move finished or not, so install with
that in mind.

Moreover moreover, I've installed two prefinished floors in my life, did
not acclimate anything on purpose, and had no problems. I also don't
acclimate anything I make in my wood shop, on purpose. Slow as I am,
acclimation usually occurs w/o intent, but the emc changes with the
weather any way. So who would you believe, me, or a
manufacturer/installer that is a friend?

If it were me and I had other work I wanted to do first, I'd acclimate,
if not, I would take the professional friends advice and get it on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
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You raise a good point.
That is the entire argument from my brother-in-law, the real floor
installer.
In winter we have moist, dry, humid, hot, heck it depends on where you are.
In summer you have heat, moisture, humidity, dryness....
So, the floor will contract and expand accordingly.
I am at a loss with the acclimation point, and have decided to let the
client do all the necessary
floor prep, furniture move, and I will put it in after that. In Jan.
So, it will sit. I just hoped I could get some work before the holiday, and
had this darn question about
acclimation.
The flooring is boxed, and kept dry at the where house. It is delivered to
the house as I speak.
Now it sits there and sucks up whatever climate is there.
And in summer, it will shrink to whatever climate is there.....
hummm.
john

"Jack" wrote in message
b.com...

On 12/13/2012 1:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
jloomis wrote:
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete.
I agree.
My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood
flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods,
laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not
necessary....
So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an
experienced floor person,
I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm
I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas......
Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to
let the floor acclimate, and work
after Christmas.


Be very careful who/what you consider to be the "pros" here. There are
far
more non-pros here than there are pros.


John is likely one of the very few pro's here.

Even within the ranks of the pros,
there is far less factual information behind their recommendations than
real
fact. On the other hand - there are those who have detemined some best
practices, and share those - complete with consdierations that may or may
not apply to your location. Be wary of the "experts" that attempt to
simply
throw out an answer.


I give you +1 for this and another +1 for your previous answer. However,
I'm deducting 2 points for yellin at John for posting a picture that
actually did contain a tree, and not one post on this topic contained a
picture of anything tree related or not. No, now that I think about it
I'm deducting 3 points for that, so you are down 1:-)

As far as acclimation, I agree with the guy that manufactured and
installed floors for 30+ years, and more over, would ask, acclimate to
what? Winter? Summer, air on, air off? Exposed to sun, in the shade,
what exactly? I would worry more about where it was made, dried and
stored (rain forest/desert/down the road a bit) than if I left it alone
for a few days. Solid wood will move finished or not, so install with
that in mind.

Moreover moreover, I've installed two prefinished floors in my life, did
not acclimate anything on purpose, and had no problems. I also don't
acclimate anything I make in my wood shop, on purpose. Slow as I am,
acclimation usually occurs w/o intent, but the emc changes with the
weather any way. So who would you believe, me, or a
manufacturer/installer that is a friend?

If it were me and I had other work I wanted to do first, I'd acclimate,
if not, I would take the professional friends advice and get it on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

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Default Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation

jloomis wrote:
You raise a good point.
That is the entire argument from my brother-in-law, the real floor
installer.
In winter we have moist, dry, humid, hot, heck it depends on where
you are. In summer you have heat, moisture, humidity, dryness....
So, the floor will contract and expand accordingly.
I am at a loss with the acclimation point, and have decided to let the
client do all the necessary
floor prep, furniture move, and I will put it in after that. In Jan.
So, it will sit. I just hoped I could get some work before the
holiday, and had this darn question about
acclimation.
The flooring is boxed, and kept dry at the where house. It is
delivered to the house as I speak.
Now it sits there and sucks up whatever climate is there.
And in summer, it will shrink to whatever climate is there.....
hummm.
john


Well John - it certainly cannot hurt to sit, but the fact of the matter is
you can worry about this all you want, but in the summer the humidity is
going to change and the wood is going to react to that. There is nothing
more you can do but to nail it tight when you go on site, and let the rest
fall to what happens with all wood floors.

Think about the nicest wood flooring you've ever seen. Do you really think
they waited for some precise humidity level/moisture level and then put down
the floor? Heck no. By the time you get to do this work your questions
will all be moot, because you will have "acclimated" the wood anyway. Nail
it John!

--

-Mike-





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Swingman wrote in
:

On 12/13/2012 12:10 PM, jloomis wrote:
Then when I thought about it, the wood needs to be dry before
finishing it. right?
And the wood had gone through its movements. right?
And unless the wood was stored in a pond, or a damp garage in the
must and mold, it should be fine. right?
He said the only problem with installing un-acclimated wood is when
you install unfinished wood flooring.
Now the more I think about this, the more I believe him.
I tell you, I never thought I would get so many opinions, and the one
that sticks is the one from a person
who has installed thousands of sq. ft.
hummmm????


No hmmm about it, John ... he may know floors, but he apparently does
not fully understand WOOD.

The following is an absolutely unarguable FACT:

"Finish will slow the rate of moisture exchange, it will not stop it.
Material finished on all surfaces will expand or contract at a slower
rate than raw wood, but finished wood will eventually acclimate to EMC
levels."

"Finishes cannot change EMC; they affect only the rate at which
absorption and desorption occur".

The above quoteS are almost verbatim from the US Forest Products
Laboratory.

So, as I said before, and if you want to do the job properly ...
"acclimate".

(as a GC who pays attention to such details, I've caused, and bought,
many thousands of board feet of flooring of all types to be
installed; stubbed my toe once or twice, but never over the same issue
more than once ... and I routinely acclimate pre-finished flooring ...
it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND:

!!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!!

G

Ah...Someone who raised my point of consideration...Regardless of what
other experts say, what do the manufacturers of the flooring specify? Why
do they say "acclimate" or "not acclimate"? They may be basing their
position on faulty data but if you do not follow their recommendation,
will warranty on the flooring be invalid due to improper installation?
Just my $0.02 worth(less)...DaveD


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On 12/20/2012 1:46 AM, Dave Dodson wrote:
it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND:

!!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!!

G

Ah...Someone who raised my point of consideration...Regardless of what
other experts say, what do the manufacturers of the flooring specify? Why
do they say "acclimate" or "not acclimate"? They may be basing their
position on faulty data but if you do not follow their recommendation,
will warranty on the flooring be invalid due to improper installation?
Just my $0.02 worth(less)...DaveD


Exactly! Other than a couple days' time, what do you lose by
acclimating the flooring (which was, after all, John's initial concern)?

I know that you will find manufacturer's suggesting or requiring
acclimation of their product, but I seriously doubt that you'll ever see
one that says "Do Not Acclimate" What would be the purpose? To be
fair, unless you're moving a super dry product into a more humid
environment AND disregarding the requirement to leave spacing around the
perimeter for product movement, you're probably going to be okay also.
Much ado about not so much.



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Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/20/2012 1:46 AM, Dave Dodson wrote:
it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND:

!!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!!

G

Ah...Someone who raised my point of consideration...Regardless of
what other experts say, what do the manufacturers of the flooring
specify? Why do they say "acclimate" or "not acclimate"? They may be
basing their position on faulty data but if you do not follow their
recommendation, will warranty on the flooring be invalid due to
improper installation? Just my $0.02 worth(less)...DaveD


Exactly! Other than a couple days' time, what do you lose by
acclimating the flooring (which was, after all, John's initial
concern)?
I know that you will find manufacturer's suggesting or requiring
acclimation of their product, but I seriously doubt that you'll ever
see one that says "Do Not Acclimate" What would be the purpose? To
be fair, unless you're moving a super dry product into a more humid
environment AND disregarding the requirement to leave spacing around
the perimeter for product movement, you're probably going to be okay
also. Much ado about not so much.


I agree - or... at least that makes sense to me. Having read the US Foresty
excerpts posted here, and various opinions on acclimating I found myself
wondering how those two ideas came together. The Forestry excerpt stated
that even sealed wood will absorb moisture from the air, and release it to
the air, but it will do so at a much slower rate than unsealed wood. Next
to that is the opinion that it may well be safest, or best to allow
prefinished wood to acclimate a couple of days or weeks, just as one would
with unfinished. So my question became... why? If the finish affects the
rate of absorbtion as stated by the Forestry excerpt, then how would
acclimating prefinished wood in a manner similar to unfinished wood, be of
any value? Wouldn't it take *much* longer to acclimate the prefinished
product? So - why bother?

And as you say - if the wood has been sitting around in an area of like
humidity as your home, is there really even any acclimation taking place?

Not that I know the answers to these questions, or even have an opinion on
them. I don't lay hardwood floors so I have no real experience to draw from
to form a reliable opinion.

--

-Mike-



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