Newbie ? Rolling beads
 

Greetings- I am turning some table legs of dry walnut
about 1 -1/2 in Dia. I have read Raffin's book, watched his video, and
practiced for a day or two. When it comes to tuning beads about 1/4 wide I
use a 1/2" skew chisel with the point down and have pretty good success.
However, when I attempt it with the point up the tool skates down the work.
Is there a cure for this? Perhaps the tool has to be perfectly perpendicualr
to the axis? Or, do I have to cut a small groove to contain the tool edge?
Thanks, Jim Oh, I hold my hand over the tool blade and
hold it securely to the tool rest.

Saw a comment in one of my new books that a common "new turner" mistake
is "insufficient forward thrust" when turning beads.

Since I just had a few accidents in the last two hours and tried the
advice -- I now think it might be true. ROTFL.

Why do we never trust expert advice till we wreck something eh?

So, starting with the skew at a 45 deg. angle -- tip pointing up and to
your left -- forward thrust as you roll to the right -- with the skew
ending up vertical and the centre of the edge NOT below the centre line
of the turned piece. AT least that's what just worked. :-)

I could scan and post that one page on my web site if it would help...
But probably someone who knows what they are doing could help more...



Jim L. wrote:
Greetings- I am turning some table legs of dry walnut
about 1 -1/2 in Dia. I have read Raffin's book, watched his video, and
practiced for a day or two. When it comes to tuning beads about 1/4 wide I
use a 1/2" skew chisel with the point down and have pretty good success.
However, when I attempt it with the point up the tool skates down the work.
Is there a cure for this? Perhaps the tool has to be perfectly perpendicualr
to the axis? Or, do I have to cut a small groove to contain the tool edge?
Thanks, Jim Oh, I hold my hand over the tool blade and
hold it securely to the tool rest.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Thanks Will, I will try it as soon as the Doctors office opens. Jim

"Will" wrote in message
...
Saw a comment in one of my new books that a common "new turner" mistake
is "insufficient forward thrust" when turning beads.

Since I just had a few accidents in the last two hours and tried the
advice -- I now think it might be true. ROTFL.

Why do we never trust expert advice till we wreck something eh?

So, starting with the skew at a 45 deg. angle -- tip pointing up and to
your left -- forward thrust as you roll to the right -- with the skew
ending up vertical and the centre of the edge NOT below the centre line
of the turned piece. AT least that's what just worked. :-)

I could scan and post that one page on my web site if it would help...
But probably someone who knows what they are doing could help more...



Jim L. wrote:
Greetings- I am turning some table legs of dry walnut
about 1 -1/2 in Dia. I have read Raffin's book, watched his video, and
practiced for a day or two. When it comes to tuning beads about 1/4 wide
I
use a 1/2" skew chisel with the point down and have pretty good success.
However, when I attempt it with the point up the tool skates down the
work.
Is there a cure for this? Perhaps the tool has to be perfectly
perpendicualr
to the axis? Or, do I have to cut a small groove to contain the tool
edge?
Thanks, Jim Oh, I hold my hand over the tool blade and
hold it securely to the tool rest.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

There are several ways of rolling beads which do not use a skew.

A 3/8" beading and parting tool is the tool of choice for many of the UK
turners. I've watched Martin Pidgen who turns thousands of lamp pulls a
year with thousands of beads use it and decided to try it myself. That
is the way I do it now.

The French use a Bedan. I've tried this also but find it somewhat
awkward. On the other hand, I've never had the chance to watch it being
used up close as with Martin.

The skew is hard to use -- maybe it is the wrong tool for the job?

Bill

Jim L. wrote:
Thanks Will, I will try it as soon as the Doctors office opens. Jim

"Will" wrote in message
...

Saw a comment in one of my new books that a common "new turner" mistake
is "insufficient forward thrust" when turning beads.

Since I just had a few accidents in the last two hours and tried the
advice -- I now think it might be true. ROTFL.

Why do we never trust expert advice till we wreck something eh?

So, starting with the skew at a 45 deg. angle -- tip pointing up and to
your left -- forward thrust as you roll to the right -- with the skew
ending up vertical and the centre of the edge NOT below the centre line
of the turned piece. AT least that's what just worked. :-)

I could scan and post that one page on my web site if it would help...
But probably someone who knows what they are doing could help more...



Jim L. wrote:

Greetings- I am turning some table legs of dry walnut
about 1 -1/2 in Dia. I have read Raffin's book, watched his video, and
practiced for a day or two. When it comes to tuning beads about 1/4 wide

I

use a 1/2" skew chisel with the point down and have pretty good success.
However, when I attempt it with the point up the tool skates down the

work.

Is there a cure for this? Perhaps the tool has to be perfectly

perpendicualr

to the axis? Or, do I have to cut a small groove to contain the tool

edge?

Thanks, Jim Oh, I hold my hand over the tool blade and
hold it securely to the tool rest.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Jim, if you are new to rolling beads with a scew you might consider
putting a dead cup center in the headstock rather than a prong center ,
that way the work can slip if you get a catch. tom

Jim, if you are new to rolling beads with a scew you might consider
putting a dead cup center in the headstock rather than a prong center ,
that way the work can slip if you get a catch. tom

"Will" wrote in message
...
Saw a comment in one of my new books that a common "new turner" mistake
is "insufficient forward thrust" when turning beads.


Best way of describing it I've heard. Since moving downward faster than
forward with a skew chisel puts the upper portion in contact with the piece,
that causes the skate.

However I have to say that I think the skew, a wonderful tool for running
planing cuts, is not the tool for beading. Bill mentions a couple of
options - beading tool, which is a double-bevel straight chisel, and a
Bedan, which is a single bevel. Super options. Beading tools generally
have to be made at home, though.

Other option some use is grinding the skew into a convex profile, so you can
lag farther behind in forward thrust without the relieved upper edge
engaging the work.

I found the Two Books in one By Phil Irons has a reference to using a
Spindle Gouge (3/8 inch?).... Page 58-59 in Techniques.

-- start reference --

Quote... (Paraphrase actually)
Hold the bevel against the work and slowly raise the handle while
rotating to the right. The tool should finish with the flute facing away
from the bead.

Do the cutting with the right hand half of the edge and finish up with
the tip against the wood.

.... Reverse steps for left hand edge...

I have the Darlow book, Fundamentals of Woodturning as well - beads are
cut using the skew... Pages 84-99 Good explanations - takes practice as
you can tell from my spindle - see below :-)

-- end reference --

I was able to do them (sort of) with the skew...
see here...
http://woodwork.pmccl.com/Business/p...urnedwood.html

But it was troublesome for rusty skills.

Think I will fall in love with a spindle gouge. :-) ... and reserve my
skew for smoothing.



Bill Rubenstein wrote:
There are several ways of rolling beads which do not use a skew.

A 3/8" beading and parting tool is the tool of choice for many of the UK
turners. I've watched Martin Pidgen who turns thousands of lamp pulls a
year with thousands of beads use it and decided to try it myself. That
is the way I do it now.

The French use a Bedan. I've tried this also but find it somewhat
awkward. On the other hand, I've never had the chance to watch it being
used up close as with Martin.

The skew is hard to use -- maybe it is the wrong tool for the job?

Bill

Jim L. wrote:

Thanks Will, I will try it as soon as the Doctors office opens. Jim

"Will" wrote in message
...

Saw a comment in one of my new books that a common "new turner" mistake
is "insufficient forward thrust" when turning beads.

Since I just had a few accidents in the last two hours and tried the
advice -- I now think it might be true. ROTFL.

Why do we never trust expert advice till we wreck something eh?

So, starting with the skew at a 45 deg. angle -- tip pointing up and to
your left -- forward thrust as you roll to the right -- with the skew
ending up vertical and the centre of the edge NOT below the centre line
of the turned piece. AT least that's what just worked. :-)

I could scan and post that one page on my web site if it would help...
But probably someone who knows what they are doing could help more...



Jim L. wrote:

Greetings- I am turning some table legs of dry walnut
about 1 -1/2 in Dia. I have read Raffin's book, watched his video, and
practiced for a day or two. When it comes to tuning beads about 1/4
wide


I

use a 1/2" skew chisel with the point down and have pretty good
success.
However, when I attempt it with the point up the tool skates down the


work.

Is there a cure for this? Perhaps the tool has to be perfectly


perpendicualr

to the axis? Or, do I have to cut a small groove to contain the tool


edge?

Thanks, Jim Oh, I hold my hand over the tool blade and
hold it securely to the tool rest.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek





--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Will wrote:
I found the Two Books in one By Phil Irons has a reference to using a
Spindle Gouge (3/8 inch?)....

I use a skew for larger beads, and a spindle gouge for smaller ones.

I recommend beginners start their skew work with larger beads of at
least one inch diameter. The reason is that when you roll a bead with
the skew, the bevel has to swing through close to 90 degrees and the
handle has to make a correspondingly large movement. The difficulty
comes when this large swing has to be coordinated with a small forward
movement in a small bead. It is much easier to get the swing right if it
can be done over a longer curve.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

Nice web site Derek. Like the turnings you have posted. Interesting bowls.


I think there must be something about the east cost that causes wood
turning. Is it a virus or a congenital condition out there? (Probably
can't be cured -- eh?)

Yeah -- I had that feeling when I was turning the spindle on my web
page. Even the small skew just didn't work for the fine stuff - so I
will take your advice to heart. It was definitely easier on the left
side (of the spindle) with the skew.


Derek Andrews wrote:
Will wrote:

I found the Two Books in one By Phil Irons has a reference to using a
Spindle Gouge (3/8 inch?)....


I use a skew for larger beads, and a spindle gouge for smaller ones.

I recommend beginners start their skew work with larger beads of at
least one inch diameter. The reason is that when you roll a bead with
the skew, the bevel has to swing through close to 90 degrees and the
handle has to make a correspondingly large movement. The difficulty
comes when this large swing has to be coordinated with a small forward
movement in a small bead. It is much easier to get the swing right if it
can be done over a longer curve.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Here's another idea if you promise not to tell...

When turning very small beads (such as on the handle of a top) I use a
1/8" plain parting tool -- not a diamond shaped one. I use a corner,
roll the tool as if it were a skew and it works just fine.

When making tops from one piece of wood, I reduce the thickness for the
handle with peeling cuts with the parting tool, it is already in my
hand, so...

I also have two round skews, a 1/4" and a 3/8" which were home-made from
drill rod. These are used more to make small v cuts than for beads.

Bill

Will wrote:
Nice web site Derek. Like the turnings you have posted. Interesting bowls.


I think there must be something about the east cost that causes wood
turning. Is it a virus or a congenital condition out there? (Probably
can't be cured -- eh?)

Yeah -- I had that feeling when I was turning the spindle on my web
page. Even the small skew just didn't work for the fine stuff - so I
will take your advice to heart. It was definitely easier on the left
side (of the spindle) with the skew.


Derek Andrews wrote:

Will wrote:

I found the Two Books in one By Phil Irons has a reference to using a
Spindle Gouge (3/8 inch?)....



I use a skew for larger beads, and a spindle gouge for smaller ones.

I recommend beginners start their skew work with larger beads of at
least one inch diameter. The reason is that when you roll a bead with
the skew, the bevel has to swing through close to 90 degrees and the
handle has to make a correspondingly large movement. The difficulty
comes when this large swing has to be coordinated with a small forward
movement in a small bead. It is much easier to get the swing right if
it can be done over a longer curve.

Bill Rubenstein wrote:
Here's another idea if you promise not to tell...

My fingertips are sealed. :-) No one else will ever see these posts.


When turning very small beads (such as on the handle of a top) I use a
1/8" plain parting tool -- not a diamond shaped one. I use a corner,
roll the tool as if it were a skew and it works just fine.


Well it is (a skew) isn't it? Just very small. :-) I will try this ADRSN
(any day real soon now) -- Like next time I put a spindle on.

When making tops from one piece of wood, I reduce the thickness for the
handle with peeling cuts with the parting tool, it is already in my
hand, so...

I also have two round skews, a 1/4" and a 3/8" which were home-made from
drill rod. These are used more to make small v cuts than for beads.

I am going to try making some tools as per Darrell Feltmates site. So I
will be able to try your additional tips.


Bill

Will wrote:

Nice web site Derek. Like the turnings you have posted. Interesting
bowls.


I think there must be something about the east cost that causes wood
turning. Is it a virus or a congenital condition out there? (Probably
can't be cured -- eh?)

Yeah -- I had that feeling when I was turning the spindle on my web
page. Even the small skew just didn't work for the fine stuff - so I
will take your advice to heart. It was definitely easier on the left
side (of the spindle) with the skew.


Derek Andrews wrote:

Will wrote:

I found the Two Books in one By Phil Irons has a reference to using
a Spindle Gouge (3/8 inch?)....




I use a skew for larger beads, and a spindle gouge for smaller ones.

I recommend beginners start their skew work with larger beads of at
least one inch diameter. The reason is that when you roll a bead with
the skew, the bevel has to swing through close to 90 degrees and the
handle has to make a correspondingly large movement. The difficulty
comes when this large swing has to be coordinated with a small
forward movement in a small bead. It is much easier to get the swing
right if it can be done over a longer curve.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Thanks to all for the information. I tried using my 1/2 inch spindle gouge
and it worked fine. I again tried the double bevel skew tool with the
cutting edge down and it scares hell out of me so I will abandon that until
some mentor gives me a demo. I will fabricate some of the other suggested
tool shapes. Again, thanks, Jim.


"Jim L." wrote in message
...
Greetings- I am turning some table legs of dry walnut
about 1 -1/2 in Dia. I have read Raffin's book, watched his video, and
practiced for a day or two. When it comes to tuning beads about 1/4 wide I
use a 1/2" skew chisel with the point down and have pretty good success.
However, when I attempt it with the point up the tool skates down the
work.
Is there a cure for this? Perhaps the tool has to be perfectly
perpendicualr
to the axis? Or, do I have to cut a small groove to contain the tool edge?
Thanks, Jim Oh, I hold my hand over the tool blade and
hold it securely to the tool rest.

"Jim L." skrev i melding
. ..
Thanks to all for the information. I tried using my 1/2 inch spindle gouge
and it worked fine. I again tried the double bevel skew tool with the
cutting edge down and it scares hell out of me so I will abandon that
until
some mentor gives me a demo. I will fabricate some of the other suggested
tool shapes. Again, thanks, Jim.

I'll bet you a nickle to nothing that you will always
come back to the spindle gouge for beads,
once you have
got the hang of it.

Bjarte

When turning very small beads (such as on the handle of a top) I use a
1/8" plain parting tool -- not a diamond shaped one. I use a corner,
roll the tool as if it were a skew and it works just fine.

Well it is (a skew) isn't it? Just very small. :-) I will try this ADRSN
(any day real soon now) -- Like next time I put a spindle on.

It's more like a bedan than a skew, only not so wide. The sharpening
angle is much greater than a skew, and the cutting edge isn't skewed.
Because of the larger sharpening angle you won't be able to get such a
full bead if it is adjacent to another bead or some other feature. It
will be fine if the bead is standing proud of the surrounding wood, but
not if it is to be inset.

The other thing to consider is that you are using the corner of the tool
to make the cut. Now, there are two ways to cut a bead with the skew.
One is with the edge, typically about one third of the way along the
edge from the short point (heel). The other method is to cut on the
short point itself, which is more akin to the cutting action of the bedan.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message
. com...
Here's another idea if you promise not to tell...

When turning very small beads (such as on the handle of a top) I use a
1/8" plain parting tool -- not a diamond shaped one. I use a corner, roll
the tool as if it were a skew and it works just fine.
SNIP .........

Bill, You said you had trouble rolling beads using a bedan. Try using it
just as you described above. Works for me.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"George" george@least wrote in message
...

"Will" wrote in message
...
Saw a comment in one of my new books that a common "new turner" mistake
is "insufficient forward thrust" when turning beads.
SNIP ....

However I have to say that I think the skew, a wonderful tool for running
planing cuts, is not the tool for beading. Bill mentions a couple of
options - beading tool, which is a double-bevel straight chisel, and a
Bedan, which is a single bevel. Super options. Beading tools generally
have to be made at home, though.
==================

A 1/4 or 3/8 inch beveled wood chisel can be use as a bedan with maybe a
slight amount of side grinding to assure a relief on the sides. No need for
HSS unless you do a lot of beads.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX