A while back I mentioned the green cloth-backed paper sold by Packard looked
a winner. Well, I'm even more convinced now, because I cleaned up a part of
my shelf where the 180 experimental piece had hidden itself, and have used
it on another half-dozen pieces. This stuff is still cutting wood, though
at a finer grade rating, perhaps 240, and holding on to the hooks. Whoever
said the cloth was too stiff should see this 10-minute noodle of a sanding
pad!

I retired him yesterday, firmly attached to the velcro, grit from edge to
edge, and a veteran of over a dozen bowls. Put the old white Rhino 180 on
again, but once it's gone, it's gone.

I have 4 unused 80 grit disks for sale. With as often as I use 'em and as
long as these last....

(That's a joke, Ray)

In article , "George" george@least wrote:
This stuff [used 180 grit] is still cutting wood, though
at a finer grade rating, perhaps 240

Wrong. Worn 180 paper is simply that: worn 180 paper. It may remove wood at
approximately the same rate as new 240 paper, but it is *not* equivalent to
the finer grade. The abrasive particles are still the same (180) size, they're
just dull, and the scratch pattern reflects that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Yeah, right.

Talk to the Tormekers about what happens when you break the corners on the
grains.

Or the users of garnet paper....

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "George" george@least
wrote:
This stuff [used 180 grit] is still cutting wood, though
at a finer grade rating, perhaps 240

Wrong. Worn 180 paper is simply that: worn 180 paper. It may remove wood
at
approximately the same rate as new 240 paper, but it is *not* equivalent
to
the finer grade. The abrasive particles are still the same (180) size,
they're
just dull, and the scratch pattern reflects that.

In article , "George" george@least wrote:
Yeah, right.

Talk to the Tormekers about what happens when you break the corners on the
grains.

You're talking to a Tormeker now, George. I've had one for three years.
Since you're apparently unfamiliar with the way it works, know that it uses a
stone that's *harder* than the grains to break them into finer grains. It's
not the same process as wearing the grains down through use.

Or the users of garnet paper....

Likewise not the same as wearing the abrasive particles down.

Believe what you want. It doesn't change the facts: used 180 is not the same
as new 240.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "George" george@least
wrote:
This stuff [used 180 grit] is still cutting wood, though
at a finer grade rating, perhaps 240

Wrong. Worn 180 paper is simply that: worn 180 paper. It may remove wood
at
approximately the same rate as new 240 paper, but it is *not* equivalent
to
the finer grade. The abrasive particles are still the same (180) size,
they're
just dull, and the scratch pattern reflects that.




--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Breakage of the sharp edges is what it does, same as sanding wood. AlOx
does _not_ wear down in contact with wood. Defies physics.

The smaller sharp points from brittle fractures are effectively finer. When
you re-dress your Tormek, you break away the fractured grains, exposing
fresh gross points.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "George" george@least
wrote:
Yeah, right.

Talk to the Tormekers about what happens when you break the corners on
the
grains.

You're talking to a Tormeker now, George. I've had one for three years.
Since you're apparently unfamiliar with the way it works, know that it
uses a
stone that's *harder* than the grains to break them into finer grains.
It's
not the same process as wearing the grains down through use.

Gee I don't know about this Doug. George may be on to something. I will do
a test......I will just use 180 grit until it cuts like 240 and then like
320 and then like 400 and then like 600......and on and on....well you get
the idea........... Think about it Doug, we only have to buy one piece of
sandpaper from now on......................YMMV...........

--

Regards,
M.J. (Mike) Orr


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "George" george@least
wrote:
This stuff [used 180 grit] is still cutting wood, though
at a finer grade rating, perhaps 240

Wrong. Worn 180 paper is simply that: worn 180 paper. It may remove wood
at
approximately the same rate as new 240 paper, but it is *not* equivalent
to
the finer grade. The abrasive particles are still the same (180) size,
they're
just dull, and the scratch pattern reflects that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"M.J." wrote in message
...
Gee I don't know about this Doug. George may be on to something. I will
do
a test......I will just use 180 grit until it cuts like 240 and then like
320 and then like 400 and then like 600......and on and on....well you get
the idea........... Think about it Doug, we only have to buy one piece
of
sandpaper from now on......................YMMV...........

--

Cute.

Now let's have a quick reality check about sandpaper. The grit is
determined by screen sizes. For our example, let's say that the screen
which traps the 150 grit is above, ours is going to be labeled 180, and
what passes us to the screen below, 240. We begin with a range of sizes,
and adhere them to a backing. The process vibrates them a bit to
distribute, so you've got a bit of the gold-panning effect, where the bigger
roll upward.

Now the larger of those particles, because they are larger, extend farther
from the adhesive or back. They are brittle, and so fracture, producing
_smaller_ grains with tighter abrasive points. They are also more
vulnerable, due to friction, to that phenomenon we all love, breaking free
of the adhesive so as to leave ugly marks as they are chewed through our
smoother surface. As both effects favor the ones who stick their necks out,
worn sandpaper approaches the grade of the lower mesh size as it is used.

With this green stuff, the adhesive appears to be very good, holding grit
far beyond any I've used, including some red resin-on-resin (look at sanding
belts) types. This means I've still got grit making sanding dust beyond the
time the paper-backed 180 has shed virtually everything and is burnishing
the surface like the Kraft paper it is.

In article , "George" george@least wrote:
Now let's have a quick reality check about sandpaper. The grit is
determined by screen sizes. For our example, let's say that the screen
which traps the 150 grit is above, ours is going to be labeled 180, and
what passes us to the screen below, 240. We begin with a range of sizes,
and adhere them to a backing. The process vibrates them a bit to
distribute, so you've got a bit of the gold-panning effect, where the bigger
roll upward.

Now the larger of those particles, because they are larger, extend farther
from the adhesive or back. They are brittle, and so fracture, producing
_smaller_ grains with tighter abrasive points.

I wouldn't mind seeing some substantiation of this claim that the abrasive
particles *fracture* (as opposed to wear).

They are also more
vulnerable, due to friction, to that phenomenon we all love, breaking free
of the adhesive so as to leave ugly marks as they are chewed through our
smoother surface. As both effects favor the ones who stick their necks out,
worn sandpaper approaches the grade of the lower mesh size as it is used.

Think that if you want. Me, I always figured there was a reason that sandpaper
was made in different grits, some coarse, some fine.

With this green stuff, the adhesive appears to be very good, holding grit
far beyond any I've used, including some red resin-on-resin (look at sanding
belts) types. This means I've still got grit making sanding dust beyond the
time the paper-backed 180 has shed virtually everything and is burnishing
the surface like the Kraft paper it is.

No doubt you do. Trouble is, it's dull 180-grit particles. And those are *not*
the same as sharp 240-grit particles.

Do a test: using fresh 180, well-worn 180, and fresh 240, sand up some areas
on a piece of plexiglas where you can see the scratch pattern easily.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "George" george@least wrote:
Now let's have a quick reality check about sandpaper.

I wouldn't mind seeing some substantiation of this claim that the abrasive
particles *fracture* (as opposed to wear).

Look it up. You'll learn more if you have to put the effort into it. You
refuse gratis information.

While you're at it, give some thought to how they came up with that Mohs
thingie of what scratches (wears) what. If wood "wears" AlOx - which it
does by breaking the sharp edges - not rounding them, why doesn't it just
blunt your gouge, which is cut by AlOx?

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:32:39 -0800, "M.J." wrote:

Gee I don't know about this Doug. George may be on to something. I will do
a test......I will just use 180 grit until it cuts like 240 and then like
320 and then like 400 and then like 600......and on and on....well you get
the idea........... Think about it Doug, we only have to buy one piece of
sandpaper from now on......................YMMV...........

I tried it.. damn paper backing wore out after only 100 uses... cheap disposable
crap!



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I had noticed that older worn sandpaper would give a smoother surface
than the next finer grit of fresh paper would. After pondering this for
a while, I figured that it was due to clogging, and you ended up
burnishing instead of sanding. I think this is at least possible.
robo hippy

















mac davis wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:32:39 -0800, "M.J."
wrote:

Gee I don't know about this Doug. George may be on to something. I
will do
a test......I will just use 180 grit until it cuts like 240 and then
like
320 and then like 400 and then like 600......and on and on....well
you get
the idea........... Think about it Doug, we only have to buy one
piece of
sandpaper from now on......................YMMV...........

I tried it.. damn paper backing wore out after only 100 uses... cheap
disposable
crap!



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"robo hippy" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had noticed that older worn sandpaper would give a smoother surface
than the next finer grit of fresh paper would. After pondering this for
a while, I figured that it was due to clogging, and you ended up
burnishing instead of sanding. I think this is at least possible.
robo hippy

Probably less clogging than simple grit shedding. As mentioned many times,
the stuff breaks into smaller pieces and dislodges from the adhesive. With
higher smooth paper to grit ratio, you'll heat rather than cut, eventually.

I take clogging to be that fiber grab which I can remove with my file card
or that crepe stick. What always happens when you try to sand a piece too
wet.

Geo

I got it - too bad I have loads of the Rhino "waste-of-money" paper as well!

Ray


"George" george@least wrote in message
...
A while back I mentioned the green cloth-backed paper sold by Packard
looked
a winner. Well, I'm even more convinced now, because I cleaned up a part
of
my shelf where the 180 experimental piece had hidden itself, and have used
it on another half-dozen pieces. This stuff is still cutting wood, though
at a finer grade rating, perhaps 240, and holding on to the hooks.
Whoever
said the cloth was too stiff should see this 10-minute noodle of a sanding
pad!

I retired him yesterday, firmly attached to the velcro, grit from edge to
edge, and a veteran of over a dozen bowls. Put the old white Rhino 180 on
again, but once it's gone, it's gone.

I have 4 unused 80 grit disks for sale. With as often as I use 'em and as
long as these last....

(That's a joke, Ray)