Keep you powder dry. (a too long to-do about drywall screws)
 

Not as important to woodturning as talcum powder, but I think faceplate
screws, in particular drywall screws, are worth some discussion here.

For years we have been warned re the danger of using files and drywall
screws, mostly owing to their brittle nature. Was this sound advice or
just rote repetition of some turner's bad experience that has become
gospel? We went thru this with gloves, and food safe finishes, and some
of us even remember when scraping was anathema.

Don Pencil, whose experience in making, using and teaching about
faceplates makes his differing advice and opinion well worth our
attention. There may be others who are not secure enough to openly go
against repeated dogma or those who can _personally_ corroborate the
danger of drywall screws. If so, I hope they will pitch in now, so rcw
can destroy or enforce this legendary warning.
***********************************************

While musing in my armchair, instead of experimenting in the shop, I
wonder:

Are there differences in the quality of drywall screws, imports, price
etc? What is the metal they are made of? Does it vary in composition,
strength, quality, etc?

For faceplate use, Is there any difference in using drywall screws made
for driving into metal, wood or sheetrock?

Does it matter whether screws are self tapping and crush the wood or are
driven into holes the size of the screw's core?

Does the sharp taper of drywall screws render them less efficient and
more dangerous than screws with a straighter shank?

Do the coarse sharp threads of drywall screws register the workpiece
against the faceplate more firmly than wood screws?

If a screw's shank isn't fractured when driven home, why would _one of
several in a circle around the faceplate be wrung off during rotation?

If I need to change from drywall screws to 'better' steel etc. because
of larger, heavier or unbalanced blanks, why don't I just use them on
all my blanks?

Finally thank goodness, would coating them with talcum powder make it
easier to drive them into the wood and also prevent those ugly rust
marks? Or would this impose a liability risk due to the epidemic death
toll from baby powder? It could be a subect for yet another ?? CDC
grant. A billion here and a billion there could add up to real money,
maybe even enough to make some safe flu vaccine.

Bloody hell! Probably less than one in ten thousand inquiring rcw minds
really want to know. :)

'Turn to safety', Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I'm waiting for two callbacks, so let me hazard a reply. The beef is the
same as always, Arch. Harder means more brittle in steel. Of course, when
you're concerned about abrasion versus shock, hard is good, so it gets
confusing.

My take is that original "drywall screws" were just that - screws for
attaching drywall. Unfortunately, they got a bum rap from woodworkers,
because the screws, made as they were to attach soft material to harder, had
some truly weak undersize shanks which twisted off with frustrating
regularity. Mind you, you didn't cam out of those early ones, but rather
ate the crosspoints off your softer driver tip if you weren't careful.

Now comes the trouble - the term has become, like Kleenex, generic for black
phosphate screws, regardless of pattern. The ones you get now are really
woodworking screws, don't seem as prone to snapping off, and cam out like
crazy, which to me means they're softer. Driven me to square drive, though
the shelf stock still makes it a crapshoot at my house as to what I might
find in any particular length.

Good sense would seem to say use thicker shanks, don't install them into
hard woods with drills, but with driver/drills with a clutch, and make sure
they're snug so the whole thing won't flop and shock the screws. Of course,
good sense would also dictate not hacking at spinning work but rather
cutting, and I fear that's not all as common as it should be either.

I don't use faceplates. I use a pin chuck, and it's a truly soft piece of
wood and dumb move by me that rotates it over the pin. Guess that's why
when I did use faceplates, the "drywall screws" held to a "T."

Let the games begin!

"Arch" wrote in message
...

For years we have been warned re the danger of using files and drywall
screws, mostly owing to their brittle nature. Was this sound advice or
just rote repetition of some turner's bad experience that has become
gospel? We went thru this with gloves, and food safe finishes, and some
of us even remember when scraping was anathema.

Don Pencil, whose experience in making, using and teaching about
faceplates makes his differing advice and opinion well worth our
attention. There may be others who are not secure enough to openly go
against repeated dogma or those who can _personally_ corroborate the
danger of drywall screws. If so, I hope they will pitch in now, so rcw
can destroy or enforce this legendary warning.
SNIP
Bloody hell! Probably less than one in ten thousand inquiring rcw minds
really want to know. :)

Arch said:

Not as important to woodturning as talcum powder, but I think faceplate
screws, in particular drywall screws, are worth some discussion here.

FWIW, I just watched a Taunton Press video, "Bowl Turning with Del
Stubbs", in which he mentions using drywall screws to secure work to
faceplates. I myself have used fine thread #8 1 1/8" drywall screws
without a failure - yet...


Greg G.

Hi Arch,
I can't comment on the use of drywall screws for faceplates because I
don't use them. Guess I took the original admonition to heart. Now, for a
couple of comments. I have found that a screw is likely to twist off when
inserting it, or, when removing it rather than from any twisting torque on
the faceplate. Some woods, such as oak and hickory, soon make you go to a
more sturdy screw. Also makes you get one of the little devices that drills
around the broken screw shank so you can get it outta there.
Now, I am going to add to your list of thought provokers:
Is there a benefit (real or imagined) to using a flat head screw, with the
taper underneath, that will center the screw into the faceplate hole?
Or, are flat shouldered screws better because they add a 'clamping' force to
the faceplate?
Personally I use the latter type (square drive, washer head #8 size by the
length that seems appropriate for the piece of wood about to be turned). Oh,
and once upon a time I predrilled all the screw holes but now just drive
them in.
And one last question, should you put a screw in "every" hole in the face
plate? Even if there are 6 or more? Why?

Jim in Ohio

Arch,

I've been using drywall screws to successfully hold wood to faceplates
for 20 years. One occaisionally breaks, but I've had the same
experience with sheet metal screws. The trick is to tighten them up
until just before they break and then stop.

Clay Foster


Don Pencil, whose experience in making, using and teaching about
faceplates makes his differing advice and opinion well worth our
attention. There may be others who are not secure enough to openly go
against repeated dogma or those who can _personally_ corroborate the
danger of drywall screws. If so, I hope they will pitch in now, so rcw
can destroy or enforce this legendary warning.
***********************************************

it depends on the mass you attach to the faceplate - for a small bowl they
are fine - I've sheared off 5 1/4 inch lag bolts turning a heavy and out of
balance item - and that was with the tailstock in place - the drywall screws
are much more brittle and not as strong. They are not desgned for shock
loads, and I have had them break when there is shock loading


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Not as important to woodturning as talcum powder, but I think faceplate
screws, in particular drywall screws, are worth some discussion here.

For years we have been warned re the danger of using files and drywall
screws, mostly owing to their brittle nature. Was this sound advice or
just rote repetition of some turner's bad experience that has become
gospel? We went thru this with gloves, and food safe finishes, and some
of us even remember when scraping was anathema.

Don Pencil, whose experience in making, using and teaching about
faceplates makes his differing advice and opinion well worth our
attention. There may be others who are not secure enough to openly go
against repeated dogma or those who can _personally_ corroborate the
danger of drywall screws. If so, I hope they will pitch in now, so rcw
can destroy or enforce this legendary warning.
***********************************************

While musing in my armchair, instead of experimenting in the shop, I
wonder:

Are there differences in the quality of drywall screws, imports, price
etc? What is the metal they are made of? Does it vary in composition,
strength, quality, etc?

For faceplate use, Is there any difference in using drywall screws made
for driving into metal, wood or sheetrock?

Does it matter whether screws are self tapping and crush the wood or are
driven into holes the size of the screw's core?

Does the sharp taper of drywall screws render them less efficient and
more dangerous than screws with a straighter shank?

Do the coarse sharp threads of drywall screws register the workpiece
against the faceplate more firmly than wood screws?

If a screw's shank isn't fractured when driven home, why would _one of
several in a circle around the faceplate be wrung off during rotation?

If I need to change from drywall screws to 'better' steel etc. because
of larger, heavier or unbalanced blanks, why don't I just use them on
all my blanks?

Finally thank goodness, would coating them with talcum powder make it
easier to drive them into the wood and also prevent those ugly rust
marks? Or would this impose a liability risk due to the epidemic death
toll from baby powder? It could be a subect for yet another ?? CDC
grant. A billion here and a billion there could add up to real money,
maybe even enough to make some safe flu vaccine.

Bloody hell! Probably less than one in ten thousand inquiring rcw minds
really want to know. :)

'Turn to safety', Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I have used dry wall screws with pilot hole in pine furniture making and
hide them with taper plugs.
I just finished roughing about 50 birch and maple blanks using the same 4
Robertson head wood screws to fasten the metal flange. I feel more
comfortable driving and removing a Robertson head then a Philip head screw.
I do not have much success in using a Philip head scr. more than 3-5 times?
Either I strip the Philip head or the driving bit.
When I repair or refurbish hardwood furniture and I have to un-crew a rusty
Philip head dry wall screw I have problem with them.
Now for a few pennies more I can buy weather treated Robertson head deck
screws.
(not good for salty marine environment)
They make good hardwood fasteners and are easy to drive with the proper size
pilot holes. FWIW




"william_b_noble" wrote in message
news:1098434843.t7YaqMflJHZgSnwO+ePalg@teranews...
it depends on the mass you attach to the faceplate - for a small bowl they
are fine - I've sheared off 5 1/4 inch lag bolts turning a heavy and out
of
balance item - and that was with the tailstock in place - the drywall
screws
are much more brittle and not as strong. They are not desgned for shock
loads, and I have had them break when there is shock loading


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Not as important to woodturning as talcum powder, but I think faceplate
screws, in particular drywall screws, are worth some discussion here.

For years we have been warned re the danger of using files and drywall
screws, mostly owing to their brittle nature. Was this sound advice or
just rote repetition of some turner's bad experience that has become
gospel? We went thru this with gloves, and food safe finishes, and some
of us even remember when scraping was anathema.

Don Pencil, whose experience in making, using and teaching about
faceplates makes his differing advice and opinion well worth our
attention. There may be others who are not secure enough to openly go
against repeated dogma or those who can _personally_ corroborate the
danger of drywall screws. If so, I hope they will pitch in now, so rcw
can destroy or enforce this legendary warning.
***********************************************

While musing in my armchair, instead of experimenting in the shop, I
wonder:

Are there differences in the quality of drywall screws, imports, price
etc? What is the metal they are made of? Does it vary in composition,
strength, quality, etc?

For faceplate use, Is there any difference in using drywall screws made
for driving into metal, wood or sheetrock?

Does it matter whether screws are self tapping and crush the wood or are
driven into holes the size of the screw's core?

Does the sharp taper of drywall screws render them less efficient and
more dangerous than screws with a straighter shank?

Do the coarse sharp threads of drywall screws register the workpiece
against the faceplate more firmly than wood screws?

If a screw's shank isn't fractured when driven home, why would _one of
several in a circle around the faceplate be wrung off during rotation?

If I need to change from drywall screws to 'better' steel etc. because
of larger, heavier or unbalanced blanks, why don't I just use them on
all my blanks?

Finally thank goodness, would coating them with talcum powder make it
easier to drive them into the wood and also prevent those ugly rust
marks? Or would this impose a liability risk due to the epidemic death
toll from baby powder? It could be a subect for yet another ?? CDC
grant. A billion here and a billion there could add up to real money,
maybe even enough to make some safe flu vaccine.

Bloody hell! Probably less than one in ten thousand inquiring rcw minds
really want to know. :)

'Turn to safety', Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:50:42 -0400, (Arch) wrote:



Are there differences in the quality of drywall screws, imports, price
etc? What is the metal they are made of? Does it vary in composition,
strength, quality, etc?

For faceplate use, Is there any difference in using drywall screws made
for driving into metal, wood or sheetrock?

Does it matter whether screws are self tapping and crush the wood or are
driven into holes the size of the screw's core?

Does the sharp taper of drywall screws render them less efficient and
more dangerous than screws with a straighter shank?

Do the coarse sharp threads of drywall screws register the workpiece
against the faceplate more firmly than wood screws?

If a screw's shank isn't fractured when driven home, why would _one of
several in a circle around the faceplate be wrung off during rotation?

If I need to change from drywall screws to 'better' steel etc. because
of larger, heavier or unbalanced blanks, why don't I just use them on
all my blanks?

Finally thank goodness, would coating them with talcum powder make it
easier to drive them into the wood and also prevent those ugly rust
marks? Or would this impose a liability risk due to the epidemic death
toll from baby powder? It could be a subect for yet another ?? CDC
grant. A billion here and a billion there could add up to real money,
maybe even enough to make some safe flu vaccine.

Bloody hell! Probably less than one in ten thousand inquiring rcw minds
really want to know. :)
there are indeed various qualities of drywall screws. Home Depot
carries 2-3 brands, and I made the mistake of buying the cheapest.
They were lousy...often broke, especially if I had to remove one and
re-drive it. Some had bad threads and some were molded together.

I went back and got something called "Deckmate" with combination
square and Phillips drive, with a coating for ease of driving and
resistance to weather. (There are even stainless steel screws, if you
need total resistance to rust)

Screws, like almost every product, have levels of quality, and
depending on how many you use and for what purposes, it is good to try
various brands and make notes.

For faceplate use, I 'usually' use the largest sheet-metal screw that
will go thru the hole..(#10 or #12) so I can control slipping
(centering) better, but with care, any good screw can do the job.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:22:42 -0400, "Jim Pugh"
wrote:


Now, I am going to add to your list of thought provokers:
Is there a benefit (real or imagined) to using a flat head screw, with the
taper underneath, that will center the screw into the faceplate hole?
Or, are flat shouldered screws better because they add a 'clamping' force to
the faceplate?

If you think about it, Jim, you'll realize that the "clamping" force,
is actually the same force, just less of it, that you'll apply if you
use a tapered screw in a tapered hole. If you use a round-headed
screw in a tapered hole, you are actually concentrating the same
amount of force to a smaller aread, around the rim of the hole. If
you use the screw that was designed to fit the hole, you'll transmit
the full amount of force over the entire surface of the countersunk
hole, making the screw less likely to twist out.

--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.


September 11, 2001 - Never Forget


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The trick is to tighten them up
until just before they break and then stop.
Truly a "Clayism"


--
Steve Worcester
www.turningwood.com
Better Woodturning through Technology
(And a hell of alotta practice)

Clay,
Your advise: "The trick is to tighten them up
until just before they break and then stop." is quite similar to the rule of
thumb we aircraft mechanics use for machine screws and bolts: "Tighten until
they strip, then back off one-quarter"
Old Chief Lynn :)

Ummm - CDC had a note in their big disk drive manuals - tighten screw
till just before it strips and then back off 1/4 turn. (Referring to the
head screws...)


Lynn Coffelt wrote:
Clay,
Your advise: "The trick is to tighten them up
until just before they break and then stop." is quite similar to the rule of
thumb we aircraft mechanics use for machine screws and bolts: "Tighten until
they strip, then back off one-quarter"
Old Chief Lynn :)



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek