If this is an established store they feel secure in the asking price for
that bowl. They should know their market well enough to make wise
decisions.
Tony Manella
nod"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Maxprop" wrote in message
news

"Walt & Jenne Ahlgrim" wrote in message

Don't forget the store is keeping ½ the price.

No disrespect intended, but that is really irrelevant. If the market will
bear a $75 bowl of average quality and finish, it is not reasonable to ask
$150 for it simply because the store retains 50%. Nor is accepting $37.50
if the turner has more than that 'invested' in his piece. What is
significant is that the turner may not be able to market his turnings
through such a store, unless he's willing to take a loss against what he
believes his work to be worth. The market won't pay more just because the
store wants its cut, and the market ultimately controls the price of such
items.

I once asked a renowned painter what his paintings were worth. His
response: "Only what someone is willing to pay for them."

Max

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message

Max, this is an extremely important concept that many people, not just
turners, do not seem to get! I was in a gallery for a while where I knew
several of the other "artists" also in that gallery. Some of them would
complain regularly about the gallery taking a cut of their price! There
was
one lady who thought the gallery should be happy with 10%. Some of them
demanded that the gallery's price reflect both the commission and the
artist's retail. In this particular gallery, the owner was taking a 30%
commission. For a $100 piece, the artist received $70. Some folks
demanded
that their $100 piece be tagged at $130, all because they deserved the
full
retail price, and if the gallery wanted their share, it had to be tacked
on!
As you say, people need to decide what their piece will sell for and then
decide of the gallery cut, or the show expense is going to be worth it.
That is part of the cost of doing business, regardless of whether or not
the
person is a professional business person or not.

Amen. It's really no different when Coca Cola sells a can of pop. While
the average consumer believes he's paying $1.00 for a can of Coke at the
machine, he's actually paying roughly a penny for the liquid, and the rest
is advertising, canning, distribution, labor, the pop machine, and so on, ad
infinitum. If Coca Cola believed each can was worth $1 for the drink, we'd
be paying $2.00 per can, and that might exceed most buyer's willingness to
pay. Of course I can remember when an 8 oz. bottle was a dime. Dated
myself, didn't I?

Max

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

If this is an established store they feel secure in the asking price for
that bowl. They should know their market well enough to make wise
decisions.

They've been there a while, so I must assume your statement is appropriate,
Tony. That said, I suspect there also may be the issue of whether the store
owner understands turnings. Perhaps the turnings haven't been there as long
as other items. That store has a great variety of creations from local
artists and artisans, including small woodworking items, jewelry, graphic
arts, sculpture, etc. The owner probably knows the market for some things
quite well, and is on the inclining part of the learning curve on others.
If that bowl and the other item don't sell, he may decide the turnings are
either too highly priced, or no market exists for them in his community.

Max

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message

Following on Arch's comment:" I've come to wonder if----art isn't really
in the purse of the beholder and affordable art is a non sequitur."

I'd just toss in this only obliquely related observation, coming from a
position of one who never sells his turnings, but has purchased the
turnings of others, including the "big" names.

Folks purchase artistic turnings for many reasons, including a genuine
appreciation for (if not visceral connection to) the object itself,a
desire to be some how elevated by an association with a striking object or
the artist's reputation, a belief that the work will increase in monetary
and/or artistic value (a game in and of itself), and the point I wish to
most make here, a desire to support the continued production of an
artist's work.

The latter means that the price one pays is not an attempt to obtain a
"fair market price" for the current value of the work itself (however that
might be valued) but a willingness to pay more than than that intrinsic
monetary value as a desire to increase the likelihood that the artist will
produce more works of comparable or increased artistic value. Sure, some
artists will produce works regardless of whether they can eat well,or have
a decent automobile, but for most, the best way to insure that an artist
can be free to offer their artistic expressions is to see to it that they
can maintain a decent quality of life doing so. That, my friends, means
being willing to pay more than what you might be able to obtain some item
for elsewhere. Interestingly, I don't find the willingness to do so being
all that related to the income of the purchaser, indeed, it seems to me
that often folks of limited financial means have more empathy for the
artist than those much more financially well off.

Shortly after WWII, my parents bought a painting from the quintessential
struggling artist, a young black man with immense talent and almost no way
to market his work. Their empathetic viewpoint was apparently quite similar
to that which you've stated above. Ultimately the painting became quite
valuable as the artist's output was somewhat limited--he eventually had to
find a 'day job'--and he died short of his 40th birthday. My folks sold the
painting about 20 years ago, finding it to be more a liability hanging on
the wall than an asset. The cost of insuring it became insurmountable.

The point of this is that your desire to help the turner continue to produce
is valid, and no doubt the reason some people pay more for turnings than
that which might be considered financially reasonable. But it really has
little to do with the market for turnings in general. Please set me
straight on this if I'm incorrect, but I make my preceding statement with
the assumption that fine turnings by even the best in the business don't
realize the same level of appreciation that paintings and sculptures by
renowned artists do.

Max

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

I don't turn for a living, I turn for fun. I make what I feel like making
and that is what goes to the gallery or show. If it sells great, if not I
keep it. Most of what I make is textured, colored or some combination.
While some of my shapes are utilitarian the embellishment pushes them more
towards a display item than say a walmart salad bowl. As others here
said,
the desire to own something of beauty throws the supply demand thing out
the
window. My prices are not totally set on the hours to make a piece but on
what I think the market will bear. As an example I have a 5" dia. bowl
that
is carved and painted on the outside. I have about 3 hours into the piece
but will only get $40 due to the small size. On the other side I have
beautiful 10" dia. x 8" high bowl made from spalted silver maple. I only
have about 3 1/2 hours into that piece but will get $130 for that one.
When
you start looking at decorative pieces hourly rate gets overruled by
beauty.

I agree completely. But I wasn't equating hourly rate (time in process,
really) with market value. A finely made bowl of spalted maple should
naturally command a greater price than a simple, utilitarian bowl of the
same wood with no fungal enhancement.

My dream (delusion is probably a more appropriate term) is that someday I'll
create turnings so beautiful and unique that people will beg me to sell
them. Of course I'll refuse, stating "how can one put a price on beauty?"
:-)

Max

Maxprop wrote:
snip of an informative story

.... your desire to help the turner continue to produce
is valid, and no doubt the reason some people pay more for turnings than
that which might be considered financially reasonable. But it really has
little to do with the market for turnings in general. Please set me
straight on this if I'm incorrect, but I make my preceding statement with
the assumption that fine turnings by even the best in the business don't
realize the same level of appreciation that paintings and sculptures by
renowned artists do.


Two good points.

With respect to the first. I am of the opinion that there are many
markets and it is sometimes difficult to draw conclusions from a
conceptualization that posits a homogenous market. My comments were
largely oriented with respect to primarily woodturnings as
nonfunctional-object-of-art. Exemplified by the production of
established "artists" (Ellsworth, Jordon, the Lindquists, the Moulthrops
as iconic exemplars) and those rising in stature but clearly associated
with object-of-art productions (Liestman, Wolfe, Bosche and Vesery being
some of the more prominent). If I buy a Jordan or Moulthrop piece in the
thousands, or a Piscatelli (one of potential "risings") I allow myself
to pay a premium for the reasons I expressed earlier.

Another market is the functional-object-as-also-art. This includes
primarily bowls (but also sometimes boxes and candlesticks) of exotic
wood or signature shape. This as I see it is exemplified by turners such
as Raffan, Stotts, much of Osolnik's work, and even Stocksdale (and more
recent turners like Mahoney and perhaps Drozda). In general, their
production has been much more influenced by larger market forces, and
prices went up only after a reputation was established in other areas
(non-functional objects of art, master turner status, etc.). One may
still pay a premium for such objects for the reasons expressed earlier,
but that desire is tempered by their perceived worth versus more
utilitarian renditions of similar utility. After all, just how much is
one really going to pay for a candlestick, even if it was made (by the
thousands) by Osolnik---actually not that much, particulary compared to
what Osolnick might have made for a similarly sized sculpture.

Then there is the market of utilitarian items, that may rise above
merely function based on their hand made production, or the qualities of
the materials, but which are basically being judged against a market of
items of similar utility. I put pens and basic serving/kitchen bowls,
and treen, etc. in this category. A wood bodied pen must compete against
not only the production of a multitude of local and international
woodturners turners, but also against a Mont Blanc on one end and a BIC
on the other. It is here that I think many of the earlier comments apply
most. Yah, it may take a particular turner 3 hours to create a perfectly
shaped and finished pen of Kingwood, but in most cases it is having to
compete against woods that appear not all that different produced by
turners who can produce an at least superficially similar pen in 10
minutes to 6 hours time. I think here most of your earlier comments are
spot on. In the majority of cases, the purchaser has little interest in
supporting the turner in their further production, is clearl measuring
value against other offerings, and certainly isn't apt to think there
has been great value added to their life that they have been associated
with the turner's name.

Obviously this is just one way of crudely parsing the varying markets,
and of course the distinctions blur on the edges, but I do think a
conceptualization based on multiple markets, and the varying
characteristics of the buyer as well as maker, results in useful
distinctions.

As to your second point of financial value of woodturned
nonfunctional-objects-of-art, I think the present and future are unclear
in this area. My sense of things, is that woodturnings as
nonfunctional-objects-of-art remain a fairly recent phenomeon but has
finally become almost fully accepted, and that current prices and future
appreciation are apt to begin to achieve parady with other media such as
glass and pottery, if not paintings. One thing that I think is affecting
this is that the first generation creating nonfunctional-objects-of-art
have only recently started to die off(Most of the pioneers in this area
who have died, have only done so with the last five years--e.g. the
elder Moulthrop and Lindquist, Stocksdale and Osolnik). It is only when
supply has ceased that prices of the existing items truly begin to soar.
Just try to get some of the early Stocksdale and Osolnik items away from
such folks as Martha Connell. If you can, they will come dear. In most
other media, which have a much longer history of acceptance as
nonfunctional-objects-of-art, the finite production of dead artists
begins to raise the value of what even the living produce.

The other thing here, which works against woodturnings as highly valued
nonfunctional-objects-of-art is that until recently it was difficult to
distinguish these items from functional-objects-of-art, or even
functional items. Would the unsophisticated purchaser even distinguish
between a hollow form sculture and a Drozda box, let alone between a
bowl that Raffan produced and one that was cranked out in a third world
sweat shop. There are centuries of art appreciation teaching applied to
paintings and inert sculptures, but virtually no teaching of how to
appreciate woodturned art (really, when was the last time anyone saw any
reference to wood art (studio or woodturned) in an art appreciation
textbook. Yet this is changing, and will effect the market. This last
century, particular in its latter half, saw the rise of serious
appreciation of folk or craft art. This has served as a base for others
(specifically Museums such as the Renwick and Mint, Galleries such as
the Connell and Del Mano, etc.) to begin to advance the status of
woodturned nonfunctional-objects-of-art. I've said a lot more about this
in a tentative but unfinished article called Three Facets of Woodturned
Art that exists in the archives of this group. So yes, I do think that a
market, with all the forces I refered to in the earlier post, is both
currently viable and one that I believe will enlarge in the future.

So, part of all of this is just ramblings about a perspective on
woodturning that I find interesting, but part of it is meant to
sincerely address the larger conversation that has existed in this
thread. With respect to the latter, I will reiterate that my sense of
things (for whatever that is worth) is that the conversation will be
most fruitful if it distinguishes between the differing markets and
recognizes that differing forces will come into play according to the
market niche in question. For nonfunctional-objects-of-art the forces
will be different than for the more utilitarian object, regardless of
the care and effort that went into either.


And just a final tangential comment to stir things up. Personally, I
think that most embellished woodturnings, specifically those that
largely obliterate the unique characteristics of wood, though a great
novelty to turners in the present, won't fair that well over the long
haul and may actually work against a rising appreciation and acceptance
of woodturned nonfunctional-objects-of-art. Frankly, in my view, a lot
of current embellishment is primitive and amateurish compared to the
developed standard found in other media. Crude carving (and I'm not
including the excellent work of folks like Vesery or Jordan here),
mechanical texture tooling (Oh I hate chatter tools and the Sorby
texturer), dunk and dye jobs, slapped on paint (and I'm not including
Giles Gilson here), and cutesy burned and painted on figures and
patterns (and I don't include Nittman here), on woodturnings rarely rise
to the levels of other media, and frankly would be seen as Kitsch if
not a worse embarrasment if found in another media. They are presently
novel, but at best amateurishly ape what is better done and more
consistent in other medial like pottery or glass or even metal
sculpture. What woodturning is capable of that is distinct from those
other media is the varying patterns and textures that come directly from
nature, and can be preserved in a shaped form. Novel as the work of a
Hogbin or Hosaluk is, there is nothing about it that can't be done in
another media, but it is very difficult indeed to for another media to
mimic the colors and patterns of a Stocksdale bowl in cocobolo or
Macassar ebony. So my prediction is that while turners have engaged in
embellishment to achieve distinction for themselves, it will ultimately
diminish the value and long term acceptance of woodturned
nonfunctional-objects-of-art as a distinctive media. Ya can't be
something else, and be appreciated for what you uniquely had to offer in
the first place.

Yep, you're young. I remember nickel Cokes, though Pepsi gave "12 full
ounces" for the same. That people bought Pepsi for the perceived value says
something.

Also says something that people feel they're getting ripped at $2 a gallon
for gas and pay a buck for a 20 oz soda.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

Amen. It's really no different when Coca Cola sells a can of pop. While
the average consumer believes he's paying $1.00 for a can of Coke at the
machine, he's actually paying roughly a penny for the liquid, and the rest
is advertising, canning, distribution, labor, the pop machine, and so on,
ad
infinitum. If Coca Cola believed each can was worth $1 for the drink,
we'd
be paying $2.00 per can, and that might exceed most buyer's willingness to
pay. Of course I can remember when an 8 oz. bottle was a dime. Dated
myself, didn't I?

Max,
One professional turner in our club is extremely talented both in technique
and in art. He makes some of the most beautiful hollow vessels I have ever
seen. He can pump one out in less time than it takes me to chainsaw a piece
and mount it on the lathe. That said, he rarely makes hollow vessels or any
other art pieces. He prefers to freelance for a furniture factory making
300 table legs or other small runs of furniture pieces. His reasons, steady
work and pay, doesn't need to cart his stuff around to shows, doesn't have
to bother with marketing.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Maxprop" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

I don't turn for a living, I turn for fun. I make what I feel like
making
and that is what goes to the gallery or show. If it sells great, if not
I
keep it. Most of what I make is textured, colored or some combination.
While some of my shapes are utilitarian the embellishment pushes them
more
towards a display item than say a walmart salad bowl. As others here
said,
the desire to own something of beauty throws the supply demand thing out
the
window. My prices are not totally set on the hours to make a piece but
on
what I think the market will bear. As an example I have a 5" dia. bowl
that
is carved and painted on the outside. I have about 3 hours into the
piece
but will only get $40 due to the small size. On the other side I have
beautiful 10" dia. x 8" high bowl made from spalted silver maple. I
only
have about 3 1/2 hours into that piece but will get $130 for that one.
When
you start looking at decorative pieces hourly rate gets overruled by
beauty.

I agree completely. But I wasn't equating hourly rate (time in process,
really) with market value. A finely made bowl of spalted maple should
naturally command a greater price than a simple, utilitarian bowl of the
same wood with no fungal enhancement.

My dream (delusion is probably a more appropriate term) is that someday
I'll
create turnings so beautiful and unique that people will beg me to sell
them. Of course I'll refuse, stating "how can one put a price on beauty?"
:-)

Max

Max,
That's a good point. The gallery I'm going into is just opening and the
owner knows nothing of woodturning. She relied on me to set the final
prices, which gave me much anxiety. I conferred with people who I know
frequent galleries to get a better feel for what a gallery price should be.
I will still be unsettled on my prices of new pieces for years to come.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

If this is an established store they feel secure in the asking price for
that bowl. They should know their market well enough to make wise
decisions.

They've been there a while, so I must assume your statement is
appropriate,
Tony. That said, I suspect there also may be the issue of whether the
store
owner understands turnings. Perhaps the turnings haven't been there as
long
as other items. That store has a great variety of creations from local
artists and artisans, including small woodworking items, jewelry, graphic
arts, sculpture, etc. The owner probably knows the market for some things
quite well, and is on the inclining part of the learning curve on others.
If that bowl and the other item don't sell, he may decide the turnings are
either too highly priced, or no market exists for them in his community.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...
Of course I can remember when an 8 oz. bottle was a dime. Dated
myself, didn't I?

Max


And it came out of those horizontal coolers where you had to slide the
bottle along to the end to get it out!

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad

So Tony, where is your stuff going in? I was in a gallery in Bethlehem for
a while, and just as I was starting to do really well there, she went belly
up. I hope you fare better than that!

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...
Max,
That's a good point. The gallery I'm going into is just opening and the
owner knows nothing of woodturning. She relied on me to set the final
prices, which gave me much anxiety. I conferred with people who I know
frequent galleries to get a better feel for what a gallery price should
be.
I will still be unsettled on my prices of new pieces for years to come.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

Some of us remember when men & boys swigged a 'cold dope' from thick
ribbed green fat bellied six oz. bottles. Five cents and we never heard
of Classic. In drug stores with white-tiled floors, ladies & girls
drank their 'co-colas' from thin walled clear wasp waisted glasses,
while sitting in dainty twisted wire triangular chairs beside glass
topped tables. Two drops of ammonia were added for ladies suffering the
green vapors of the lunar curse. The more adventurous females risked a
squirt of cherry, chocolate or vanilla syrup. I always wore a white cap
& apron and said my best 'yes ma'ams' while serving their cocolas. I was
more important then than I've ever been since.

Then came the great depression and with it 12 oz. bottles of RrrerC
(Royal Crown).
Later came that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper and that sweet 'belly-wash'
with its jingle "Twelve full ounces, that's a lot, twice as much for a
nickel too, Pepsi Cola is the drink for you!" Things got even worse
with NeHi Cola and hit rock bottom when I headed to New England and
learned the bitterness of that Yankee drink, Moxie. I did get a good
education and an even better wife up there (she still claims that Moxie
is an acquired taste and not for rednecks). Think I'll go out to the
shop and turn a classic coke bottle for old time's sake. What's a good
drink-safe finish? I said this would be Long.

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

(Arch) wrote:

Then came the great depression and with it 12 oz. bottles of RrrerC
(Royal Crown).
Later came that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper and that sweet 'belly-wash'
with its jingle "Twelve full ounces, that's a lot, twice as much for a
nickel too, Pepsi Cola is the drink for you!" Things got even worse
with NeHi Cola and hit rock bottom when I headed to New England and
learned the bitterness of that Yankee drink, Moxie.

Yeahbut, NeHi Grape! Not to mention vanilla cokes and lime phosphates!
Funny, now I look at the phrase 'lime phosphate' and agriculture comes to
mind.

LD

A NeHigh Grape was mighty good with salty peanuts in it, and an RC went well
with the old stand by, Moon Pie. A fellow could make a meal out of that and
some good cheese.

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message

"Maxprop" wrote in message


Of course I can remember when an 8 oz. bottle was a dime. Dated
myself, didn't I?

Max


And it came out of those horizontal coolers where you had to slide the
bottle along to the end to get it out!

About 25 years ago I bought on of those for $50, removed the slot template,
and used it as a reefer for bottles, cans, etc. Worked great, until I quit
using it about five years later. This summer I plugged it in and voila! it
still works. How's that for quality?!

Max

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
news SNIP .......

Then there is the market of utilitarian items, that may rise above merely
function based on their hand made production, or the qualities of the
materials, but which are basically being judged against a market of items
of similar utility. I put pens and basic serving/kitchen bowls, and treen,
etc. in this category. A wood bodied pen must compete against not only the
production of a multitude of local and international woodturners turners,
but also against a Mont Blanc on one end and a BIC on the other. It is
here that I think many of the earlier comments apply most. Yah, it may
take a particular turner 3 hours to create a perfectly shaped and finished
pen of Kingwood, but in most cases it is having to compete against woods
that appear not all that different produced by turners who can produce an
at least superficially similar pen in 10 minutes to 6 hours time. I think
here most of your earlier comments are spot on. In the majority of cases,
the purchaser has little interest in supporting the turner in their
further production, is clearl measuring value against other offerings, and
certainly isn't apt to think there has been great value added to their
life that they have been associated with the turner's name.
SNIP .......
=================================
Lyn,
This market, IMHO, is in imminent danger of drying up for most of the US
turners in the next 5-10 years. As a trip down a Walmart or Target
housewares aisle will show, Asian/Indian/Pakistani/?? producers are already
shipping over woodcrafted pieces that threaten the average woodworker who
does pictures, clocks, cutting boards, and many other utilitarian products.
These pieces are not the BEST quality, but some of it is suprisingly good,
especially in view of the price. I don't know if these are machine made or
done by sweat shops, but fit and finish is pretty good. Not gallery good,
but good enough that the average shopper probably won't notice the
difference. I recently saw a 8 segment wooden backed clock about 10 inches
over all, 6 inch insert, for under $10 dollars. I can't harvest my own wood,
buy a similar insert and cut, turn and finish a competing piece for that
price! As the producers in those countries discover the wood turning market
for bowls, hollow forms, boxes, etc., they'll cut the price floor out from
under us, too. They will make it much harder for us to demand $50-100 for a
bowl when it's a commodity at the local big box store. They won't have the
finish we would consider excellent, but it will be adequate for someone
wanting to buy for a birthday or Christmas gift.

I've already just about quit doing cutting boards except by request,
because it's not worth the hassle trying to explain why mine are worth
$40-50 even though they are made from local Texas woods like mesquite,
pecan, sycamore, etc. At $40, by the time I harvest (forget about buying
wood), cut, dry, plane, joint, glue, turn, sand and finish, I'm not much
above minimum wage. Since I'm retired and disabled, making a great profit on
turning is not an objective, but I just don't like to see all our jobs and
now our hobbies going overseas.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message
SNIP
Of course I can remember when an 8 oz. bottle was a dime. Dated
myself, didn't I?

Max
================
Max,
A lot of us remember what an uproar there was when Coke went from a nickel
to 6cents.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

I was given one of those coolers(coca cola) by my father in law about 20
years ago. He owned a general store in Small Town, Alberta and was
remodeling. I have been using it since then and only had to get the
motor changed once. Cost me $10. Still works great.

Maxprop wrote:
"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message


"Maxprop" wrote in message



Of course I can remember when an 8 oz. bottle was a dime. Dated
myself, didn't I?

Max



And it came out of those horizontal coolers where you had to slide the
bottle along to the end to get it out!


About 25 years ago I bought on of those for $50, removed the slot template,
and used it as a reefer for bottles, cans, etc. Worked great, until I quit
using it about five years later. This summer I plugged it in and voila! it
still works. How's that for quality?!

Max

Ken, when a pack of Wings went to 14 cents, I started rolling my own.

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

(Ghodges2) wrote:

A NeHigh Grape was mighty good with salty peanuts in it, and an RC
went well with the old stand by, Moon Pie. A fellow could make a meal
out of that and some good cheese.


Are we ALL old farts?

Are we ALL old farts?

I don't know about you but I am. I worked as a soda jerk while I was in high
school. Always a good way to make a little 'time' with the girls was to put
a little extra on their ice cream cone. That was in the forties.

"Harry B. Pye" wrote:

Are we ALL old farts?

I don't know about you but I am. I worked as a soda jerk while I was
in high school. Always a good way to make a little 'time' with the
girls was to put a little extra on their ice cream cone. That was in
the forties.




Well, you got ten years on me. The 50s was my decade.

So my prediction is that while turners have engaged in
embellishment to achieve distinction for themselves, it will
ultimately
diminish the value and long term acceptance of woodturned
nonfunctional-objects-of-art as a distinctive media.

This is a very good point I hadn't thought about. I do alot of
embellishment and will continue becauase I enjoy doing it. But it
probably does keep my work more in the craft area than art area. But
I'm just a retiree who is turning to have fun.

When I think about it, the paintings that are valued are true
paintings that have achieved marvellous effects with pure paint. I can
think of no painters that use embellishment (and there are alot that
add to their paintings everything from paper pieces to beads) that
have achieved the status of a Renoir. Pottery is the same. The
valuable ones are pure pottery. Furniture is another area. The
valuable furniture has pure lines executed to perfection. No extra
curves for the sake of curves, no extra add ons.

It also seems shortsighted to think that those art forms we are
creating are going to achieve the same status of other art forms that
have been in the process of perfection and achievement for 1000's of
years. Ours has just started moving from function to art in the past
few years. Painting made that move at least 1000 years ago, probably
2000 years ago. We are quite presumptious to think we are going to
catch up anytime soon!

Earl

Mark Hopkins said:

Now I have to go to NC on a grape Nehi run...... Man those things are great!
Too bad they don't sell them here in Atlanta...

Hmmm - never noticed, but you're right.
They used to sell it here when I was a kid.
Wonder why they stopped?


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

Mark Hopkins said:

Now I have to go to NC on a grape Nehi run...... Man those things are
great! Too bad they don't sell them here in Atlanta...

Hmmm - never noticed, but you're right.
They used to sell it here when I was a kid.
Wonder why they stopped?


Greg G.


Had a bottle a few months ago, but it didn't taste the same. It was
missing the taste of dust on the ball field, the smell of new mown
grass, the sound of crickets, and sight of fireflies dancing in the
dark.

BTW, you can get it online:

http://www.popsoda.com/nehisodas.html

LD

Lobby Dosser said:

Greg G. wrote:

Hmmm - never noticed, but you're right.
They used to sell it here when I was a kid.
Wonder why they stopped?

Had a bottle a few months ago, but it didn't taste the same. It was
missing the taste of dust on the ball field, the smell of new mown
grass, the sound of crickets, and sight of fireflies dancing in the
dark.

BTW, you can get it online:

http://www.popsoda.com/nehisodas.html

Yow - at a buck forty nine per 12oz bottle...
Folks, it ain't 1955 anymore...

I can still get the dust, smells, sounds and sights, but they're just
not the same... they're lost in the din of carbon particulates,
hydrogen sulfide, carbon monoxide, car alarms, rap blasting stereos,
sirens, gunshots, and Jerry Springer. :-\


Greg G.

I always grab a few cases when I go to Murphy, NC. I still have a couple of
bottles left out in the shop fridge. (sure was a good one today) But they
will be gone tomorrow since Georgia beat Florida this afternoon. 31-24
SWEET!

I think the distributor for it went belly up or got bought out. Want me to
pickup a case for ya?

Greg G. wrote in message
...
Mark Hopkins said:

Now I have to go to NC on a grape Nehi run...... Man those things are
great!
Too bad they don't sell them here in Atlanta...

Hmmm - never noticed, but you're right.
They used to sell it here when I was a kid.
Wonder why they stopped?


Greg G.

Mark Hopkins said:

I always grab a few cases when I go to Murphy, NC. I still have a couple of
bottles left out in the shop fridge. (sure was a good one today) But they
will be gone tomorrow since Georgia beat Florida this afternoon. 31-24
SWEET!

I lived in the northern half of Florida from 1992 to 2000. Florida
was pretty strong then. Try being the only native Georgian in a
restaraunt/bar/living room full of Florida fans - it ain't a pretty
site...

I think the distributor for it went belly up or got bought out. Want me to
pickup a case for ya?

Sure, Mark - that would be cool. I'll polish up my teddy bear:
http://thevideodoc.com/images/radarbear.jpg

24 bottles, I assume? How much/where/when?


Greg G.

I have tons of recipes for gator bait....grin I go up to Murphy every
couple of weeks. Might be this next weekend or the week after. Whatever
they cost me. Email me your number and I can call ya when I get back...

Greg G. wrote in message
news
Mark Hopkins said:

I always grab a few cases when I go to Murphy, NC. I still have a couple
of
bottles left out in the shop fridge. (sure was a good one today) But they
will be gone tomorrow since Georgia beat Florida this afternoon. 31-24
SWEET!

I lived in the northern half of Florida from 1992 to 2000. Florida
was pretty strong then. Try being the only native Georgian in a
restaraunt/bar/living room full of Florida fans - it ain't a pretty
site...

I think the distributor for it went belly up or got bought out. Want me
to
pickup a case for ya?

Sure, Mark - that would be cool. I'll polish up my teddy bear:
http://thevideodoc.com/images/radarbear.jpg

24 bottles, I assume? How much/where/when?


Greg G.

Arch,
What does that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper refer to? I've heard of NeHi and
Moxie, though never had either one.
Thanks
Martin

(Arch) wrote:

Then came the great depression and with it 12 oz. bottles of RrrerC
(Royal Crown).
Later came that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper and that sweet 'belly-wash'
with its jingle "Twelve full ounces, that's a lot, twice as much for a
nickel too, Pepsi Cola is the drink for you!" Things got even worse
with NeHi Cola and hit rock bottom when I headed to New England and
learned the bitterness of that Yankee drink, Moxie.

Hi Bill,
Its called 535 Gallery & Gifts on Main Street in downtown Bethlehem. Its a
big store (4 rooms) with a wide variety of items. My wife knows the owner,
which is how I got the interview (nepotism never hurts) and she will be
working at the store (which also never hurts). My items will be in the
"Art" room with some original oil paintings from another local artist. She
wants to keep as much local stuff as possible. She has never been in the
gallery business before but owns two other businesses. She bought the
building so hopefully she is well funded enough to last through the time it
takes to get established.
I heard Tom just got into a gallery on the south side.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message
.. .
So Tony, where is your stuff going in? I was in a gallery in Bethlehem
for
a while, and just as I was starting to do really well there, she went
belly
up. I hope you fare better than that!

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...
Max,
That's a good point. The gallery I'm going into is just opening and the
owner knows nothing of woodturning. She relied on me to set the final
prices, which gave me much anxiety. I conferred with people who I know
frequent galleries to get a better feel for what a gallery price should
be.
I will still be unsettled on my prices of new pieces for years to come.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

Martin Rost wrote:
What does that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper refer to? I've heard of NeHi and
Moxie, though never had either one.

Check this URL: http://www.drpeppermuseum.com/dr-pepper-facts.html
It explains the 10-2-4 about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

Thanks Dave.
That's an interesting page and a better answer than just saying it
refers to an old Dr Pepper advertising campaign.
Martin

"Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message
...
Martin Rost wrote:
What does that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper refer to? I've heard of NeHi
and
Moxie, though never had either one.

Check this URL: http://www.drpeppermuseum.com/dr-pepper-facts.html
It explains the 10-2-4 about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

Tony, you guys must be taking all the good spots! Why, there ain't no
galleries out here in Kutztown dontcha know. At least, none that I know
of. Next time I am out that way I will stop in and take a look at how
it is set up. I have a friend who lives on Main St. - one of the ladies
in my shop - errr, studio for the the studio tour.

Bill

Tony Manella wrote:
Hi Bill,
Its called 535 Gallery & Gifts on Main Street in downtown Bethlehem. Its a
big store (4 rooms) with a wide variety of items. My wife knows the owner,
which is how I got the interview (nepotism never hurts) and she will be
working at the store (which also never hurts). My items will be in the
"Art" room with some original oil paintings from another local artist. She
wants to keep as much local stuff as possible. She has never been in the
gallery business before but owns two other businesses. She bought the
building so hopefully she is well funded enough to last through the time it
takes to get established.
I heard Tom just got into a gallery on the south side.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message
.. .

So Tony, where is your stuff going in? I was in a gallery in Bethlehem

for

a while, and just as I was starting to do really well there, she went

belly

up. I hope you fare better than that!

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...

Max,
That's a good point. The gallery I'm going into is just opening and the
owner knows nothing of woodturning. She relied on me to set the final
prices, which gave me much anxiety. I conferred with people who I know
frequent galleries to get a better feel for what a gallery price should

be.

I will still be unsettled on my prices of new pieces for years to come.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

Thanks Dave. Martin, read but don't believe all that Texas bragging.

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Thanks Dave. Martin, read but don't believe all that Texas bragging.

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message

snip

So, part of all of this is just ramblings about a perspective on
woodturning that I find interesting, but part of it is meant to sincerely
address the larger conversation that has existed in this thread. With
respect to the latter, I will reiterate that my sense of things (for
whatever that is worth) is that the conversation will be most fruitful if
it distinguishes between the differing markets and recognizes that
differing forces will come into play according to the market niche in
question. For nonfunctional-objects-of-art the forces will be different
than for the more utilitarian object, regardless of the care and effort
that went into either.

This probably sums up the gist of the discussion rather succinctly, Lyn.
I'll admit I was lumping all turnings into a single macrocosm of the
art/utility of woodturning.


And just a final tangential comment to stir things up. Personally, I think
that most embellished woodturnings, specifically those that largely
obliterate the unique characteristics of wood, though a great novelty to
turners in the present, won't fair that well over the long haul and may
actually work against a rising appreciation and acceptance of woodturned
nonfunctional-objects-of-art. Frankly, in my view, a lot of current
embellishment is primitive and amateurish compared to the developed
standard found in other media. Crude carving (and I'm not including the
excellent work of folks like Vesery or Jordan here), mechanical texture
tooling (Oh I hate chatter tools and the Sorby texturer), dunk and dye
jobs, slapped on paint (and I'm not including Giles Gilson here), and
cutesy burned and painted on figures and patterns (and I don't include
Nittman here), on woodturnings rarely rise to the levels of other media,
and frankly would be seen as Kitsch if not a worse embarrasment if found
in another media. They are presently novel, but at best amateurishly ape
what is better done and more consistent in other medial like pottery or
glass or even metal sculpture. What woodturning is capable of that is
distinct from those other media is the varying patterns and textures that
come directly from nature, and can be preserved in a shaped form. Novel as
the work of a Hogbin or Hosaluk is, there is nothing about it that can't
be done in another media, but it is very difficult indeed to for another
media to mimic the colors and patterns of a Stocksdale bowl in cocobolo or
Macassar ebony. So my prediction is that while turners have engaged in
embellishment to achieve distinction for themselves, it will ultimately
diminish the value and long term acceptance of woodturned
nonfunctional-objects-of-art as a distinctive media. Ya can't be something
else, and be appreciated for what you uniquely had to offer in the first
place.

An excellent treatise on the subject, and food for thought. Thanks.

Max

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:59:50 -0500, "Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot
mail . com wrote:

Arch,
What does that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper refer to? I've heard of NeHi and
Moxie, though never had either one.
Thanks
Martin

(Arch) wrote:

Then came the great depression and with it 12 oz. bottles of RrrerC
(Royal Crown).
Later came that 10, 2 & 4 Texas interloper and that sweet 'belly-wash'
with its jingle "Twelve full ounces, that's a lot, twice as much for a
nickel too, Pepsi Cola is the drink for you!" Things got even worse
with NeHi Cola and hit rock bottom when I headed to New England and
learned the bitterness of that Yankee drink, Moxie.


when we were kids, we played "Dr. Pepper"... poker with 2, 4 & 10
wild..

Thanks Bill. Don't on a hex sign hit your head sign on the way. :-)
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message
.. .
Tony, you guys must be taking all the good spots! Why, there ain't no
galleries out here in Kutztown dontcha know. At least, none that I know
of. Next time I am out that way I will stop in and take a look at how
it is set up. I have a friend who lives on Main St. - one of the ladies
in my shop - errr, studio for the the studio tour.

Bill

Tony Manella wrote:
Hi Bill,
Its called 535 Gallery & Gifts on Main Street in downtown Bethlehem.
Its a
big store (4 rooms) with a wide variety of items. My wife knows the
owner,
which is how I got the interview (nepotism never hurts) and she will be
working at the store (which also never hurts). My items will be in the
"Art" room with some original oil paintings from another local artist.
She
wants to keep as much local stuff as possible. She has never been in
the
gallery business before but owns two other businesses. She bought the
building so hopefully she is well funded enough to last through the time
it
takes to get established.
I heard Tom just got into a gallery on the south side.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message
.. .

So Tony, where is your stuff going in? I was in a gallery in Bethlehem

for

a while, and just as I was starting to do really well there, she went

belly

up. I hope you fare better than that!

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...

Max,
That's a good point. The gallery I'm going into is just opening and
the
owner knows nothing of woodturning. She relied on me to set the final
prices, which gave me much anxiety. I conferred with people who I know
frequent galleries to get a better feel for what a gallery price should

be.

I will still be unsettled on my prices of new pieces for years to come.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/