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Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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question on grinder speeds
I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing
grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. At times, I can see the edge of my tools discolor a little. Couple of questions: 1) The documentation that came from Oneway with the jig recommended using a high speed grinder over a low speed grinder. Can someone give me some thoughts on this. Why would they recommend slow speed? Oneway contradicts what most folks in here recommend. 2) Am I pressing to hard on the wheel with the tool. I certain don't mean to be....I'm trying to have a light touch but sometimes I do get some discoloration on the edges. I keep a cup of water next to the grinder to frequently dip the tool in to cool the metal? 3) Should I go ahead and buy a slow speed grinder? I surely don't want to ruin any of my new expensive Sorby tools!!! This jig sure beats trying to free hand!!!! Thanks, Walker |
#2
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Walker
3450 rpm is justfine the temper can not be lost on a hss tool do not heat and quench hss tools too often as that can cause the steel to crack press lightly - the 1way will help alot get white wheels for the grinder - one at 80 grit and one at 120 - makes the grinder more versatile make sure your wheels are trued and run smoothly use a diamond tool to dress the wheel's face so it will cut and not burn the steel did i firget anything? good luck and be safe Ray "Walker" wrote in message ... I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. At times, I can see the edge of my tools discolor a little. Couple of questions: 1) The documentation that came from Oneway with the jig recommended using a high speed grinder over a low speed grinder. Can someone give me some thoughts on this. Why would they recommend slow speed? Oneway contradicts what most folks in here recommend. 2) Am I pressing to hard on the wheel with the tool. I certain don't mean to be....I'm trying to have a light touch but sometimes I do get some discoloration on the edges. I keep a cup of water next to the grinder to frequently dip the tool in to cool the metal? 3) Should I go ahead and buy a slow speed grinder? I surely don't want to ruin any of my new expensive Sorby tools!!! This jig sure beats trying to free hand!!!! Thanks, Walker |
#3
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In article ,
"Walker" wrote: I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. At times, I can see the edge of my tools discolor a little. Couple of questions: 1) The documentation that came from Oneway with the jig recommended using a high speed grinder over a low speed grinder. Can someone give me some thoughts on this. Why would they recommend slow speed? Oneway contradicts what most folks in here recommend. When they say slow speed, I think that they are referring to really slow speed grinders, such as Tormek 2) Am I pressing to hard on the wheel with the tool. I certain don't mean to be....I'm trying to have a light touch but sometimes I do get some discoloration on the edges. I keep a cup of water next to the grinder to frequently dip the tool in to cool the metal? Don't quench HSS 3) Should I go ahead and buy a slow speed grinder? I surely don't want to ruin any of my new expensive Sorby tools!!! This jig sure beats trying to free hand!!!! Thanks, Walker -- Dan Kozar remove NOSPAM |
#4
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No, Oneway recommends a 3450 RPM grinder. They had a reason for it but I
can't remember it. However, they quite properly recommend that the correct stone always be properly dressed which allows grinding to be done with less heat. Also professional turners want sharpening to be done quickly since time is money. I have a 1725 rpm grinder and will replace it with a regular 3450 if it ever fails. The slower speed is good when learning but after that I don't think it is a benefit. My machinist friends don't support the "you can't hurt HSS by overheating" philosophy. They agree it is much less prone to damage but recommend you learn to grind without bluing. Billh "Dan Kozar" wrote in message ... In article , "Walker" wrote: I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. At times, I can see the edge of my tools discolor a little. Couple of questions: 1) The documentation that came from Oneway with the jig recommended using a high speed grinder over a low speed grinder. Can someone give me some thoughts on this. Why would they recommend slow speed? Oneway contradicts what most folks in here recommend. When they say slow speed, I think that they are referring to really slow speed grinders, such as Tormek 2) Am I pressing to hard on the wheel with the tool. I certain don't mean to be....I'm trying to have a light touch but sometimes I do get some discoloration on the edges. I keep a cup of water next to the grinder to frequently dip the tool in to cool the metal? Don't quench HSS 3) Should I go ahead and buy a slow speed grinder? I surely don't want to ruin any of my new expensive Sorby tools!!! This jig sure beats trying to free hand!!!! Thanks, Walker -- Dan Kozar remove NOSPAM |
#5
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I don't understand how a useing a faster grinder will make grinding time any
faster? Seems to me ginding time speed would depend on how fast you can move the gouge from one side to the other and if you can do it correctly in one shot or have to do it several times. Same thing with heat the longer you have to leave the tool on the stone the hotter it will get. Bruce "billh" wrote in message ... No, Oneway recommends a 3450 RPM grinder. They had a reason for it but I can't remember it. However, they quite properly recommend that the correct stone always be properly dressed which allows grinding to be done with less heat. Also professional turners want sharpening to be done quickly since time is money. I have a 1725 rpm grinder and will replace it with a regular 3450 if it ever fails. The slower speed is good when learning but after that I don't think it is a benefit. My machinist friends don't support the "you can't hurt HSS by overheating" philosophy. They agree it is much less prone to damage but recommend you learn to grind without bluing. Billh "Dan Kozar" wrote in message ... In article , "Walker" wrote: I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. At times, I can see the edge of my tools discolor a little. Couple of questions: 1) The documentation that came from Oneway with the jig recommended using a high speed grinder over a low speed grinder. Can someone give me some thoughts on this. Why would they recommend slow speed? Oneway contradicts what most folks in here recommend. When they say slow speed, I think that they are referring to really slow speed grinders, such as Tormek 2) Am I pressing to hard on the wheel with the tool. I certain don't mean to be....I'm trying to have a light touch but sometimes I do get some discoloration on the edges. I keep a cup of water next to the grinder to frequently dip the tool in to cool the metal? Don't quench HSS 3) Should I go ahead and buy a slow speed grinder? I surely don't want to ruin any of my new expensive Sorby tools!!! This jig sure beats trying to free hand!!!! Thanks, Walker -- Dan Kozar remove NOSPAM |
#6
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In terms of speed of grinding, it really depends on how much you are
trying to remove. If all you are doing is dressing the bevel to renew an edge, it really doesn't make much difference whether the speed is 1100, 1800 or 3600 (approximately). In these cases you are removing so little metal it just isn't going to make any difference, except that the slower speeds allow for a little more error if you don't have smooth movements. When generating a new profile/geometry, of course faster is better because a (relatively) large amount of material is being removed. I have high speed six, low speed 8 and very low speed Tormek. If a lot of metal needs to be removed on a tool or for other grinding tasks, I usually prefer the high speed six, at least to get started. As for HSS not being immune to overheating, take a look at the quotes from Latrobe steel (a major supplier)in my article on principles of sharpening that you can get a pdf of he http://www.fholder.com/Woodturning/lyn.html Lyn Bruce Ferguson wrote: I don't understand how a useing a faster grinder will make grinding time any faster? Seems to me ginding time speed would depend on how fast you can move the gouge from one side to the other and if you can do it correctly in one shot or have to do it several times. Same thing with heat the longer you have to leave the tool on the stone the hotter it will get. Bruce "billh" wrote in message ... No, Oneway recommends a 3450 RPM grinder. They had a reason for it but I can't remember it. However, they quite properly recommend that the correct stone always be properly dressed which allows grinding to be done with less heat. Also professional turners want sharpening to be done quickly since time is money. I have a 1725 rpm grinder and will replace it with a regular 3450 if it ever fails. The slower speed is good when learning but after that I don't think it is a benefit. My machinist friends don't support the "you can't hurt HSS by overheating" philosophy. They agree it is much less prone to damage but recommend you learn to grind without bluing. Billh |
#7
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In article , Bruce Ferguson
wrote: I don't understand how a useing a faster grinder will make grinding time any faster? # of pieces of grit in contact with the metal per second? Faster speed = more cuts into the steel in the same time. |
#8
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My machinist friends don't support the "you can't hurt HSS by overheating"
philosophy. They agree it is much less prone to damage but recommend you learn to grind without bluing. Billh BRBR A member of our AAW chapter is a metallurgist, and he explained to us that bluing will NOT make a HSS tool lose its temper. I don't recall the temperature that makes steel turn blue, but he said that HSS is tempered much higher than that. You would have to heat it to "straw color" to take away the temperature, and an aluminum oxide wheel is not capable of getting HSS to the "straw" stage. Carbon steel tools are the only tools you can't blue without losing the temper. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA |
#9
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In article ,
Anonymous wrote: Considering the very low percentage of shop time spent with tools actually in contact with a grinding stone, the speed difference (in terms of time saved) is not worth considering. I wasn't referring to time saved but that more metal is removed from the tool in the same time when the wheel is spinning faster than when it is spinning slower. If that is not true, then why not use a staionary stone? It should be just as fast to sharpen a tool on a stationary stone as on a grinder, if I understand the argument being made... that the RPM of the grinding wheel is not relelvant to the speed at which one can sharpen a tool. If there's no difference between 1725 and 3450, why would you expect a difference between 0 and 1725? |
#10
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What yer saying depends on whether the tools are HSS. Personally I've not
seen any Sorby M2 HSS gouges or chisels. So I'm assuming the original poster is talking about A2 turning tools which are not HSS. If you blue a A2 tool steel turning tool you will soften the edge. So what are the tools being used? I grind at about 300 rpm; at that speed you have to try to burn the tools. You are also much more in touch with whats happening at the wheel. I can feel and hear when the grind is right or not. I can also move much more slowly through what ever motion I need to get the perfect shape and bevel. "Ray Sandusky" wrote in message ... Walker 3450 rpm is justfine the temper can not be lost on a hss tool do not heat and quench hss tools too often as that can cause the steel to crack press lightly - the 1way will help alot get white wheels for the grinder - one at 80 grit and one at 120 - makes the grinder more versatile make sure your wheels are trued and run smoothly use a diamond tool to dress the wheel's face so it will cut and not burn the steel did i firget anything? good luck and be safe Ray "Walker" wrote in message ... I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. At times, I can see the edge of my tools discolor a little. Couple of questions: 1) The documentation that came from Oneway with the jig recommended using a high speed grinder over a low speed grinder. Can someone give me some thoughts on this. Why would they recommend slow speed? Oneway contradicts what most folks in here recommend. 2) Am I pressing to hard on the wheel with the tool. I certain don't mean to be....I'm trying to have a light touch but sometimes I do get some discoloration on the edges. I keep a cup of water next to the grinder to frequently dip the tool in to cool the metal? 3) Should I go ahead and buy a slow speed grinder? I surely don't want to ruin any of my new expensive Sorby tools!!! This jig sure beats trying to free hand!!!! Thanks, Walker |
#11
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The key word is high speed steel. A2 is not HSS, M2 is and as far as I know
Sorby doesn't offer M2 tools. Tempering temps for A2 range from 350 to 1000 degrees. M2 tempering temps are well above 1000 degrees; I think they are around 1700 degrees. So no you won't soften M2 but you will soften A2 at the edge. Straw-yellow color in tool steel occurs at 460 degrees, blue at 560 degrees well into the range to soften A2. You may have confused what your friend was saying. If he was talking about hardening A2 then yes the temp would be around 1700 degrees but for tempering (which is actually softening the steel again) the temps are much lower. In a very general sense, the higher the tempering temperature the softer you make the steel. All temps are in Fahrenheit "Jim Gott" wrote in message ... A member of our AAW chapter is a metallurgist, and he explained to us that bluing will NOT make a HSS tool lose its temper. I don't recall the temperature that makes steel turn blue, but he said that HSS is tempered much higher than that. You would have to heat it to "straw color" to take away the temperature, and an aluminum oxide wheel is not capable of getting HSS to the "straw" stage. Carbon steel tools are the only tools you can't blue without losing the temper. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA |
#12
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How about this argument for a slow speed - lathe tools aren't the only
things you'll grind on the beast. Think of your plane and shave irons, knives, carving tools, etc. "Bruce Ferguson" wrote in message ... I don't understand how a useing a faster grinder will make grinding time any faster? "billh" wrote in message ... No, Oneway recommends a 3450 RPM grinder. They had a reason for it but I can't remember it. "Dan Kozar" wrote in message ... In article , "Walker" wrote: I recently purchased the Wolverine grinding jig to go with my existing grinder that runs at 3450. From all the reading I've done in this group, it is recommended to sharpen tools on a slow speed (1750) grinder. Seems its easy to get a tool too hot and ruin the tempering if sharpened at 3450. |
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The key word is high speed steel. A2 is not HSS, M2 is and as far as I know Sorby doesn't offer M2 tools. BRBR I believe you're wrong about that. Quoting from the Packard catalog: "All the Sorby tools we carry are made in Sheffield England out of M2 High Speed Steel." I have several Sorby turning tools in my shop and all are marked HSS. Sorby also makes carving tools which may be A1. These may be what you're speaking about. Carving tools are usually not HSS. Carvers want a sharper edge than HSS provides. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA |
#14
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Jim Gott wrote:
My machinist friends don't support the "you can't hurt HSS by overheating" philosophy. They agree it is much less prone to damage but recommend you learn to grind without bluing. Billh BRBR A member of our AAW chapter is a metallurgist, and he explained to us that bluing will NOT make a HSS tool lose its temper. I don't recall the temperature that makes steel turn blue, but he said that HSS is tempered much higher than that. You would have to heat it to "straw color" to take away the temperature, and an aluminum oxide wheel is not capable of getting HSS to the "straw" stage. Carbon steel tools are the only tools you can't blue without losing the temper. I think you've either misremembered or misunderstood something he said. Straw color is about 425F, blue is 600 for carbon steel. For other steel formulations the color vs temperature scale changes, but straw is always cooler than blue. M2 is typically drawn at 1000F, which is a faint dull red glow, just barely visible in sunlight, so just getting it blue shouldn't have much effect on the temper. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#16
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Why does OneWay recomend a 3450 grinder? I had a chance to pick the
owner's brain once, and he had some interesting things to say about grinding that does contradict the "commonly held wisdom". First of all, he says:"the grinding wheels are designed to run at 3450 and will perform their best at that speed". Next I asked why people seem to think they get better performance at slower speeds (like 1725), and he said that unbalanced grinding wheels will vibrate a lot causing problems that are minimized by running at a slower speed. He also mentioned that not all grinding wheels are created equal, and not everyone dresses their wheels properly. Of course, good quality wheels, a balancing kit, and a "proper" dressing tool are made by OneWay! He also said that something that happens often with woodturners is that they have a mish-mash of different tools made from different steels. A wheel that grinds carbon steel well will not work as well with high speed steel and vice versa. And he recommends an 8" wheel over 6" because the hollow grind is not as severe. (I should have gotten into: isn't the surface speed different for a 6" and an 8" wheel? Does this mean that the 8" wheels are made differently to work their best at a higher speed? And what about when the wheel wears out?) Another question I had was: Is my cheapo grinder good enough, or should I buy a new Baldor or whatever? The answer was that if you balance the grinding wheels even the cheapest grinder will run smooth. So spend your money on wheels, not grinders. And balance them! And dress them whenever they get loaded up, properly! Anyway, he seemed to have done a lot of research on grinding and wheels and stuff. So I bought a new OneWay wheel with balancing kits for my 25 year old El Cheapo brand grinder. The result: Very Smooth! The glitch: the balancing kits only work on wheels with 1" center holes, which seems to only be available on their wheels. The Norton SG wheels have a 5/8 hole or something so I couldn't make a side by side comparison with both being balanced. The balanced OneWay vs the unbalanced Norton: OneWay wins! Another glitch/weirdness: The OneWay wheels seem to be graded differently, or something. Their 80 grit acts like about a 100 grit Norton for grinding speed and finish. I've heard that the Norton SG is better, but is also more expensive. And I can't get them balanced like the OneWay. Now as soon as I sell something I'm buying a new 8" grinder (El Cheapo, probably), OneWay wheels, more balancers, and maybe even the "proper" dressing attachment for my Wolverine. Happy grinding to all! CD boulder, co |
#17
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I checked sorby's website and they don't mention their tools being made of
M2 HSS. My guess is packard has it wrong All the turning tool sellers and manufacturers said there tools were made of A2 HSS a couple of years ago but most have removed HSS from their tools cause it was a mistake... "Jim Gott" wrote in message ... The key word is high speed steel. A2 is not HSS, M2 is and as far as I know Sorby doesn't offer M2 tools. BRBR I believe you're wrong about that. Quoting from the Packard catalog: "All the Sorby tools we carry are made in Sheffield England out of M2 High Speed Steel." I have several Sorby turning tools in my shop and all are marked HSS. Sorby also makes carving tools which may be A1. These may be what you're speaking about. Carving tools are usually not HSS. Carvers want a sharper edge than HSS provides. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA |
#18
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Hello John,
I found this under the FAQ from Sorby.... - There is a difference in the way Robert Sorby tools are hardened and tempered. The steels may be the same specification but are waranteed Sheffield High Speed Steel. The heat treatment process is vital to the performance of the tool. If the blade is not heat treated correctly the blade could shatter during use. If the heat treatment is incorrect then the cutting edge cannot be sharpened correctly, it will not hold an edge. In adjunct to this Robert Sorby gouges can be used to the full length of the flute, without loss of edge retention. But it is very easy to tell HSS from carbon steel while grinding it. All my Sorby's seem to be HSS. Best wishes, Dave David Peebles Lyons, Ohio Revolutions Woodturning www.bowlturner.com "john smith" wrote in message news:3ob%c.337968$gE.66938@pd7tw3no... I checked sorby's website and they don't mention their tools being made of M2 HSS. My guess is packard has it wrong All the turning tool sellers and manufacturers said there tools were made of A2 HSS a couple of years ago but most have removed HSS from their tools cause it was a mistake... |
#19
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What yer saying depends on whether the tools are HSS. Personally I've not
seen any Sorby M2 HSS gouges or chisels. So I'm assuming the original poster is talking about A2 turning tools which are not HSS. If you blue a A2 tool steel turning tool you will soften the edge. So what are the tools being used? I have both non-HSS and HSS steel tools. When I purchased my lathe, I also bought a non-HSS beginner set of tools. My plan was to buy the beginner set of tools and then over time buy better tools to replace the cheapies. I have recently just purchased a Sorby HSS 3/8" bowl gouge and Sorby HSS 3/4" roughing gouge. Walker |
#20
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I checked sorby's website and they don't mention their tools being made of
M2 HSS. My guess is packard has it wrong All the turning tool sellers and manufacturers said there tools were made of A2 HSS a couple of years ago but most have removed HSS from their tools cause it was a mistake... BRBR Why can't you admit it? Go into any store or look in any catalog that sells Sorby turning tools and you will see "HSS" stamped on every gouge, skew, scraper that Sorby makes. If Sorby turning tools were not HSS they wouldn't be able to compete with all the other Manufacturers that are. As someone else said, it's easy to tell HSS from carbon steel by the way they look on the grinding wheel. HSS makes a light yellow spark, and carbon steel makes a darker, orange spark that breaks up and bounces all over the place. Trust me, Sorby turning tools are HSS. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA |
#22
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Peter Teubel wrote:
On 09 Sep 2004 06:03:39 GMT, (Jim Gott) wrote: HSS makes a light yellow spark, and carbon steel makes a darker, orange spark that breaks up and bounces all over the place. You got it backwards. Bright yellow forky sparks for carbon steel and dull orange balls for HSS. Since the carbon content of A2 and M2 is identical, either is a "carbon steel". The big difference between them is the tungsten content. Rather than speculating, the _facts_ on the two can be found at http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/highspeed/rexm2sh.html and http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/plastics/airkoolp.html. And the facts are that A2 does temper at the temperatures that typically cause blue discoloration on steel, while M2 does not. Peter Teubel Milford, MA http://www.revolutionary-turners.com -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#23
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Unless I miss my guess, the origin of this post dealt with grinding speeds
for sharpening woodturning tools. I use a standard aluminum oxide wheel on a high speed (3470 rpm) grinder. The white wheels wear too fast for me. On the other hand I use jigs to sharpen. Yes I can free hand and yes I free hand and the jigs are as fast and better for a lot of tools and grinds. Besides, if you are going to use wheels over 60 or maybe 80 grit, it is murder to feel the wheel and jigs are almost a necessity. -- God bless and safe turning Darrell Feltmate Truro, NS Canada www.aroundthewoods.com |
#24
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#25
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Only thing I have to admit is it's been a couple of years since I needed to
buy turning tools. At that time everyone was on the HSS band wagon but all the tools except Glazier (Sp?) tools were A2 and as I said before A2 isn't HSS. And it seemed that the HSS was eventually dropped and only the A2 name used. So one of two things is happening. Either M2 is now the standard and non of the turning tool websites like Sorby... feel the need to advertise the use of M2, other than Hamlet Tools. Or most manufacturers are still bull****ing an ignorant public by saying their tools are made of HSS. Can you still buy "Carbon steel" turning tools anymore, if you can don't waste yer money. I'd like to see you tell which is A2 or M2 just by the sparks. Trust me A2 isn't HSS "Jim Gott" wrote in message ... I checked sorby's website and they don't mention their tools being made of M2 HSS. My guess is packard has it wrong All the turning tool sellers and manufacturers said there tools were made of A2 HSS a couple of years ago but most have removed HSS from their tools cause it was a mistake... BRBR Why can't you admit it? Go into any store or look in any catalog that sells Sorby turning tools and you will see "HSS" stamped on every gouge, skew, scraper that Sorby makes. If Sorby turning tools were not HSS they wouldn't be able to compete with all the other Manufacturers that are. As someone else said, it's easy to tell HSS from carbon steel by the way they look on the grinding wheel. HSS makes a light yellow spark, and carbon steel makes a darker, orange spark that breaks up and bounces all over the place. Trust me, Sorby turning tools are HSS. -Jim Gott- San Jose, CA |
#26
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"no name given" wrote in
news:mlQ0d.397076$gE.198586@pd7tw3no: Can you still buy "Carbon steel" turning tools anymore, if you can don't waste yer money. The Harbor Fright [sic] carbon steel tools are well worth the money, if you are just learning to grind. |
#27
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 04:34:26 GMT, "no name given" wrote:
M2 is now the standard and none of the turning tool websites like Sorby... feel the need to advertise the use of M2, other than Hamlet Tools. You got it. Peter Teubel Milford, MA http://www.revolutionary-turners.com |
#28
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Personally I've not seen any Sorby M2 HSS gouges or chisels
Sorby turning tools sold in the US are M2 HSS. I own a lot of them as well as several other brands. It is easy to tell the difference between M2 and carbon steel by their edge holding ability, the sparks off the grinder, and what effect bluing has on the edge. Nearly all turning tools currently sold in the US by reputable dealers are M2 or better. -mike paulson, fort collins, co |
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