This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended. The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

Max

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

I've done it on a few small pieces. On one it even healed a crack that
didn't reopen when the piece dried.

djb

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended.
The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?
================================
Max,
Check the Google archives under the rcw newsgroup. There has been MUCH
discussion about this in the past few years in the group. Steven Russel has
done a lot of research on his production pieces, and according to him, it
works great. Apparently, the physics behind it has to do with expanding the
the internal moisture to reduce internal pressures. Microwaving is supposed
to do approximately the same thing. If you have time, also Google
microwaving and have fun reading.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

there have been people badly burned with this process. As the wood gets to
the boiling-point it will expand, and therefore it is important to have a
pot large enough for the wood item to not become sealed in the container.
if it does, the whole thing might explode. be certain to check out all the
issues and safety considerations.


"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended.
The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

Max

The woodturner that I know of that has the boiliny steps and stages
documented is Steven D. Russell.
Check out www.woodturningplus.com/articles.htm and scroll down to the Drying
Wood and select his article.

I have not done it my self but I have seen him at the Woodworking show in
Dallas for the last 2 or 3 years.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended.
The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

Max

In article . net,
"Maxprop" wrote:

This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended. The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

Yes it's valid. I've used the technique on some
hard-to-dry-without-splitting woods like plum and filbert - though I
boil much longer than 30 minutes.

I picked up an enameled lobster-sized pot at a thrift or yard sale for a
couple bucks. Fill it about 1/2 way with water, drop the turning in and
start the heat. I let it soft boil or simmer for at least an hour or 90
minutes then just turn the heat off and let it cool down with the water.
I then let it surface dry for a few hours and place it on a shelf in my
basement to finish up for a month or two.

I've had much better success (practically perfect) with boiling over
microwaving in regard to cracking. It's very easy to overdo the nuking
and end up with a bunch of small or not so small checks. I believe the
heating in the water alleviates any rapid moisture loss that can occur
when microwaving.

(Hmmmm - I was complaining about my experience with Red Oak and its
tendency to split when microwaing and/or bag drying. I'll have to see
how boiling works on that - for some reason, just didn't consider
boiling...)

This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he =
attended. The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating =
the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 =
months
to more like a few weeks.
=20
Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

If you think about this, this is nearly what a wood drying kiln does, =
not with water, but with steam. Saturated steam under pressure is not =
much different than submerged in boiling water. The disadvantages are =
boiling uses more energy than steam. The advantages are you don't have =
to invest in a pressure vessel.

"Ken Moon" wrote in message

"Maxprop" wrote in message

This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended.
The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9
months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?
================================
Max,
Check the Google archives under the rcw newsgroup. There has been MUCH
discussion about this in the past few years in the group. Steven Russel
has
done a lot of research on his production pieces, and according to him, it
works great. Apparently, the physics behind it has to do with expanding
the
the internal moisture to reduce internal pressures. Microwaving is
supposed
to do approximately the same thing. If you have time, also Google
microwaving and have fun reading.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Thanks, Ken, and all the others for your responses. As soon as I posted
that, I feared it probably had been discussed here in detail, so I did a
Google and found quite a bit about it. I finally have a use for that old
beer brewing pot.

Max

Has anyone here tried a kitchn pressure cooker for drying smaller pieces
or maybe a discarded autoclave for larger? I can never leave well
enough alone, so how about boiling in hypertonic saline solution or LDD
solution? ......or sour mash! OR....., for the young who can wait,
just a brown paper bag. Arch, (who is dry enough already)

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Paper industry has tried pretty much all of the below.

Of course, their objective is wood that falls apart....

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Has anyone here tried a kitchn pressure cooker for drying smaller pieces
or maybe a discarded autoclave for larger? I can never leave well
enough alone, so how about boiling in hypertonic saline solution or LDD
solution? ......or sour mash! OR....., for the young who can wait,
just a brown paper bag. Arch, (who is dry enough already)

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Acid methodologies are used to digest pine cellulose in Fl/Ga paper
mills and the stench is awful, blowing on the wind miles away. Heat
processing methods used in Maine are pretty much odorless. Both produce
a wet slurry, not dry wood.
Not sure about Jack Daniels in Tenn. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I just couldn't get larger red oak bowls (14-24")to dry without cracking
until I tried boiling.
I have a 55 gallon drum cut across the middle. one half sits with the cover
down and makes a super container. The other sits with the cover up and with
some of the sides removed makes a dandy stand. Put the bowls and water in
the top and light a fire with the trimmings in the stand. Weigh down the
bowls with bricks etc. boil for an hour or so and then leave overnight to
cool. Remove and let air dry and then bag and dry slowly.
Greg

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article . net,
"Maxprop" wrote:

This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended.
The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9
months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

Yes it's valid. I've used the technique on some
hard-to-dry-without-splitting woods like plum and filbert - though I
boil much longer than 30 minutes.

I picked up an enameled lobster-sized pot at a thrift or yard sale for a
couple bucks. Fill it about 1/2 way with water, drop the turning in and
start the heat. I let it soft boil or simmer for at least an hour or 90
minutes then just turn the heat off and let it cool down with the water.
I then let it surface dry for a few hours and place it on a shelf in my
basement to finish up for a month or two.

I've had much better success (practically perfect) with boiling over
microwaving in regard to cracking. It's very easy to overdo the nuking
and end up with a bunch of small or not so small checks. I believe the
heating in the water alleviates any rapid moisture loss that can occur
when microwaving.

(Hmmmm - I was complaining about my experience with Red Oak and its
tendency to split when microwaing and/or bag drying. I'll have to see
how boiling works on that - for some reason, just didn't consider
boiling...)

"Arch" wrote in message

Acid methodologies are used to digest pine cellulose in Fl/Ga paper
mills and the stench is awful, blowing on the wind miles away.

Thanks, Arch. That finally explains the god-awful odor permeating the
Michigan lakefront for dozens of miles around Muskegon. That paper mill
must use acid and pine logs.

Max

"Greg Kulibert" wrote in message

I just couldn't get larger red oak bowls (14-24")to dry without cracking
until I tried boiling.
I have a 55 gallon drum cut across the middle. one half sits with the
cover
down and makes a super container. The other sits with the cover up and
with
some of the sides removed makes a dandy stand. Put the bowls and water in
the top and light a fire with the trimmings in the stand. Weigh down the
bowls with bricks etc. boil for an hour or so and then leave overnight to
cool. Remove and let air dry and then bag and dry slowly.

This raises another query. I've been told that the green piece
(Greenpeace?) should be added to the water already boiling. Any comments.

Max

Microwaving the bowl blank does basically the same thing except the
source of moisture is the wood itself. The purpose of both is exposure
to moist heat which causes the rupture of cell walls thus allowing
moisture from the wood to escape, and evaproate at a faster, and more
even rate thus lessening the chance of warpage, and/or cracking.

Spy in Hawaii

In article t,
"Maxprop" wrote:

This raises another query. I've been told that the green piece
(Greenpeace?) should be added to the water already boiling. Any comments.

I've only done it by bringing the water and bowl up to a boil at the
same time - no reason, just didn't think about doing it the other way
'round.

I might add that the heat softens the lignin which is the glue that holds
the fibers together. When it is soft the fibers can move relative to each
other (very slightly) and relieve most of the stress in the piece. This is
also similar to pulping in the paper industry except that there they break
the lignin bonds to free the fibers totally.
Greg
"Spyda Man" wrote in message
...
Microwaving the bowl blank does basically the same thing except the
source of moisture is the wood itself. The purpose of both is exposure
to moist heat which causes the rupture of cell walls thus allowing
moisture from the wood to escape, and evaproate at a faster, and more
even rate thus lessening the chance of warpage, and/or cracking.

Spy in Hawaii

I might add that the heat softens the lignin which is the glue that =
holds
the fibers together. When it is soft the fibers can move relative to =
each
other (very slightly) and relieve most of the stress in the piece. =20

More on point is that this is exactly what happens when steam bending =
wood. Perhaps boiling's success isn't that it lets wood dry faster, but =
with less checking?

Microwaving the bowl blank does basically the same thing except the
source of moisture is the wood itself. =20

Emphasis on 'basically'. True, it is a heat process, but most wood =
drying methods are. Besides the obvious investment and energy costs, =
micorwave drying suffers from creating defects from localized pressure =
within the wood as well as uneven drying.

The purpose of both is exposure
to moist heat which causes the rupture of cell walls=20

Is this proven or conjecture? Inquiring minds want to know. Dan

Greg, Thanks! Neat setup and one I can replicated this afternoon. I have =
an unlimited supply of open top drums.=20

"Greg Kulibert" wrote in message =
...
I just couldn't get larger red oak bowls (14-24")to dry without =
cracking
until I tried boiling.
I have a 55 gallon drum cut across the middle. one half sits with the =
cover
down and makes a super container. The other sits with the cover up and =
with
some of the sides removed makes a dandy stand. Put the bowls and water =
in
the top and light a fire with the trimmings in the stand. Weigh down =
the
bowls with bricks etc. boil for an hour or so and then leave overnight =
to
cool. Remove and let air dry and then bag and dry slowly.
Greg

Has anyone here tried a kitchn pressure cooker for drying smaller =
pieces
or maybe a discarded autoclave for larger? I can never leave well
enough alone, so how about boiling in hypertonic saline solution or =
LDD
solution? ......or sour mash! OR....., for the young who can wait,
just a brown paper bag. Arch, (who is dry enough already)

I decided to get the straight skinny from the horses mouth: Forest =
Products Lab. I found this overview on drying which mentions steam =
kiln, hot air, microwave, solar and some weird other methods.=20

One was azeotropic drying, which is boiling in oil. Honest! The said it =
produced checking in hardwoods, but if boiled in a vacuum chamber it had =
better results.=20

They also mentioned solvent drying, "The solvent seasoning process =
involves subjecting the wood to a spray or continuous immersion in =
either hot acetone or a similar solvent miscible with water for a number =
of hours until most of the water is extracted from the wood." Sounds =
similar to LDD processing.=20

No mention of LDD or boiling in water. See: =
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...lgtr118.pdf=20

There may be more at FPL, but I could find it. My searches came back 0 =
or too many to search through. Dan

"Spyda Man" wrote in message

Microwaving the bowl blank does basically the same thing except the
source of moisture is the wood itself. The purpose of both is exposure
to moist heat which causes the rupture of cell walls thus allowing
moisture from the wood to escape, and evaproate at a faster, and more
even rate thus lessening the chance of warpage, and/or cracking.

How long would one nuke a, say, 12" bowl?

Max

Not so sure on that one. Checks form when there is too steep a moisture
gradient between the surface and the interior. The cells losing bound
moisture contract, while their brothers in the same fiber remain fully
expanded. FPL covers this under kiln degrade, I believe. Neat thing about
checks is that they are self-limiting, depending on the wood and RH. At the
point where loss rate exceeds capillary draw, no more rapid drying can take
place, because the column of water is broken. Thus the phenomenon we've
noticed on our woodpiles, that different woods check deeper than others,
even when side by side.

With the microwave, and to a certain extent, a piece heated
through-and-through by boiling, I should think what you're doing is helping
push water more rapidly to the surface by higher interior vapor pressure
over and above the capillary draw that normal surface tension and pore size
allows. The micro, as we know, excites molecules and makes the inside
(insulated) warmer than the outside, which in concept, at any rate, would
make the method superior to through-and-through in the initial stages of
heating, and for a short time after removing the piece from boiling.

At what point unraveling the lignin cross-linking becomes more important in
the equation is something I would like to find out more about. It could be
that it takes time for it to unwind, thus favoring the longer heat period -
boiling - over the shorter, but hotter microwave.

Oh yes, topical LDD, which reduces capillary draw, should break the pull
earlier, limiting the depth of checks. Maintaining in a miscible solvent or
vapor (some folks use alcohol, as I recall) for a long period of time merely
increases the vapor pressure from within, mimicking the microwave process.

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:4HXzc.58753$HG.46184@attbi_s53...
I might add that the heat softens the lignin which is the glue that holds
the fibers together. When it is soft the fibers can move relative to each
other (very slightly) and relieve most of the stress in the piece.

More on point is that this is exactly what happens when steam bending wood.
Perhaps boiling's success isn't that it lets wood dry faster, but with less
checking?

At what point unraveling the lignin cross-linking becomes more =
important in
the equation is something I would like to find out more about. It =
could be
that it takes time for it to unwind, thus favoring the longer heat =
period -
boiling - over the shorter, but hotter microwave.

George, A lot of interesting points and new questions, for me, too. The =
only thing I can contribute is steam bending. I've done a fair bit and =
have the Wood Bending handbook, too. The rule of thumb is that it takes =
one hour per inch of stock thickness to prepare wood for bending at a =
tad under 212=B0F. Of course this heating effect is not linear. Veneer =
can be heated almost instantly. Dan

=20

We used to do snowshoe bends (1x1) for an hour, so seems a fair rule. I've
seen luthiers and makers of Shaker boxes bend over hot pipes with soaked
wood, and that nearly veneer thin, which may or may not disprove the
hypothesis.

I've got to get me a better cushion for my shave horse. You would think
that the excess adipose tissue would cushion well enough, but I have to
change contours too often. Oh well the alternative to old is dead, so I
guess I'll make a quick addition to the sharpening thread before I take my
extra cushion and the rest of this ice tea outside.

If you come up with some science, let us know, eh?

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:55%zc.41079$2i5.3262@attbi_s52...
At what point unraveling the lignin cross-linking becomes more important
in
the equation is something I would like to find out more about. It could
be
that it takes time for it to unwind, thus favoring the longer heat
period -
boiling - over the shorter, but hotter microwave.

George, A lot of interesting points and new questions, for me, too. The only
thing I can contribute is steam bending. I've done a fair bit and have the
Wood Bending handbook, too. The rule of thumb is that it takes one hour per
inch of stock thickness to prepare wood for bending at a tad under 212°F. Of
course this heating effect is not linear. Veneer can be heated almost
instantly. Dan

One other thing to note about using a steel drum to boil.
If there is tannin in the wood the water and wood will turn black/dark brown
It's just like making the vinegar/iron mixture to ebonize wood
This dark layer is very very thin and turns off easily.

One other method I heard about at a demo was to soak the item in alcohol
(ethanol) overnight.
This was done on a turned item with minimal thickness. It was said to dry
the wood very quickly.
The demonstrator had a few examples. I believe that he attributed it to Dale
Nish but I can't even remember the demonstrators name more or less who he
said gave him the idea.

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:P1Yzc.40394$2i5.36143@attbi_s52...
Greg, Thanks! Neat setup and one I can replicated this afternoon. I have an
unlimited supply of open top drums.

"Greg Kulibert" wrote in message
...
I just couldn't get larger red oak bowls (14-24")to dry without cracking
until I tried boiling.
I have a 55 gallon drum cut across the middle. one half sits with the
cover
down and makes a super container. The other sits with the cover up and
with
some of the sides removed makes a dandy stand. Put the bowls and water in
the top and light a fire with the trimmings in the stand. Weigh down the
bowls with bricks etc. boil for an hour or so and then leave overnight to
cool. Remove and let air dry and then bag and dry slowly.
Greg

"Greg Kulibert" wrote in message

One other method I heard about at a demo was to soak the item in alcohol
(ethanol) overnight.

I'm assuming this is utilizing the hygroscopic nature of alcohol. Following
that line of reasoning, couldn't one also use a concentrated solution of
sugar water? The osmotic gradient would be in favor of pulling the moisture
out of the wood, I'd think.

Max

It's evaporation that counts. The alcohol/water evaporates faster.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Greg Kulibert" wrote in message

One other method I heard about at a demo was to soak the item in alcohol
(ethanol) overnight.

I'm assuming this is utilizing the hygroscopic nature of alcohol.
Following
that line of reasoning, couldn't one also use a concentrated solution of
sugar water? The osmotic gradient would be in favor of pulling the
moisture
out of the wood, I'd think.

Max

I've got to get me a better cushion for my shave horse. =20

You can buy Tempur-Pedic cushions at Brookstones.

I think in a nutshell Russells protacol calls for boiling 1 hour per inch of
thickness as a minimum. Hes says it can go longer. The big thing is when
you start your watch. if the water is boiling and you drop in your bowls
the boiling stops. The hour stars when you have a rapid boil again. Same
for adding water. The clock runs when the water is boiling again. I have
not tried this yet still doing LLD, but I have heard him explain it several
times. Most detail would be his web site that has been posted.

Bruce
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
This weekend another turner was telling me about a seminar he attended.
The
instructor--sorry, I've forgotten his name--recommended accelerating the
process of drying a rough green-turned bowl by boiling it in water for
approx. 30 minutes. He claimed it reduced the drying time from 6-9 months
to more like a few weeks.

Has anyone heard of this? Is it valid?

Max

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:46:35 -0700, "Bruce Ferguson"
wrote:

I think in a nutshell Russells protacol calls for boiling 1 hour per inch of
thickness as a minimum.

That's exactly the protocol I am using this very minute, as I am
boiling peanuts (in the nutshell) in the kitchen! How cool is that!

Do you use 1 cup of salt per 5 pounds of wood?


--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.


September 11, 2001 - Never Forget


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