Is a fingernail grind the same as am Ellsworth grind?

I've read of the advantages to the side grind but are the disadvantages?

I have a few small detail gouges that were purchased with the fingernail
grind and was wondering if there'd be any benefit to putting that grind on a
1/2" spindle gouge. Wondering if it would make hollowing out end grain
easier or harder.

Shifting gears - I'm trying to wrap my head around what I've read about bowl
gouges. I've read that using a spindle gouge as a bowl gouge could break the
gouge. I'm assuming we're talking about large pieces here not the cups or
small boxes that I would make. I'm also assuming that the difference between
hollowing end grain and hollowing face grain is significant - or am I doing
the typical newbie over think here?

Thanx,

Vic

--
There are 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who
don't

Hello Vic,

The Ellsworth Grind is designed for the 5/8 inch deep fluted bowl
gouge. It has a nose angle of 60 degrees and a swept back side grind
that is best obtained with the Ellsworth Jig. I don't consider it to
be the same as the fingernail grind used on spindle gouges. For
spindle gouges, I generally grind a 30 to 35 degree nose bevel and
swing the wings back similar to the Ellsworth Grind. This way you can
use the spindle gouge in a scraping cut if desired.

It is the spindle roughing gouge that they recommend that one not use
for bowls. The reason for this is the small extension of the gouge
that goes into the handle. This is the area where they are likely to
break and often do.

I personally use two spindle gouges: a 1/2 inch Crown spindle gouge
with a 35 degree bevel and swept back wings and a 3/8 inch Hamlet
spindle gouge also ground with the same grind as the 1/2 inch. Plus,
of course, the roughing gouge which is about 1-3/8 inch wide. My
roughing gouge is actually a Robert Sorby Spindle gouge with a
roughing Gouge grind on it, which is probably about 45 degrees.

The spindle roughing gouge I've just described will work fine for
little boxes and the outside of bowls; however, the bevel angle is too
sharp for hollowing bowls. You can use them to hollow End grain boxes
by first drilling a hole to the depth to be hollowed on center. The
with the spindle gouge you go in and cut up toward about 10:00 o'clock
and pull it back toward the top of the box while cutting with the left
side of the swept back wing.

I hope this helps, if not let me know.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Nov 7, 9:55*am, "Vic Baron" wrote:
Is a fingernail grind the same as am Ellsworth grind?

I've read of the advantages to the side grind but are the disadvantages?

I have a few small detail gouges that were purchased with the fingernail
grind and was wondering if there'd be any benefit to putting that grind on a
1/2" spindle gouge. Wondering if it would make hollowing out end grain
easier or harder.

Shifting gears - I'm trying to wrap my head around what I've read about bowl
gouges. I've read that using a spindle gouge as a bowl gouge could break the
gouge. I'm assuming we're talking about large pieces here not the cups or
small boxes that I would make. I'm also assuming that the difference between
hollowing end grain and hollowing face grain is significant - or am I doing
the typical newbie over think here?

Thanx,

Vic

--
There are 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who
don't

Hi Fred -

Thanx for the explanation. I can visualize what you are saying. Have to give
it a try!

If using the tool rest across the face of the end grain cup and using a 1/2
gouge - what would you say would me the (safest?) max depth you could hollow
out?

Vic

"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
Hello Vic,

The Ellsworth Grind is designed for the 5/8 inch deep fluted bowl
gouge. It has a nose angle of 60 degrees and a swept back side grind
that is best obtained with the Ellsworth Jig. I don't consider it to
be the same as the fingernail grind used on spindle gouges. For
spindle gouges, I generally grind a 30 to 35 degree nose bevel and
swing the wings back similar to the Ellsworth Grind. This way you can
use the spindle gouge in a scraping cut if desired.

It is the spindle roughing gouge that they recommend that one not use
for bowls. The reason for this is the small extension of the gouge
that goes into the handle. This is the area where they are likely to
break and often do.

I personally use two spindle gouges: a 1/2 inch Crown spindle gouge
with a 35 degree bevel and swept back wings and a 3/8 inch Hamlet
spindle gouge also ground with the same grind as the 1/2 inch. Plus,
of course, the roughing gouge which is about 1-3/8 inch wide. My
roughing gouge is actually a Robert Sorby Spindle gouge with a
roughing Gouge grind on it, which is probably about 45 degrees.

The spindle roughing gouge I've just described will work fine for
little boxes and the outside of bowls; however, the bevel angle is too
sharp for hollowing bowls. You can use them to hollow End grain boxes
by first drilling a hole to the depth to be hollowed on center. The
with the spindle gouge you go in and cut up toward about 10:00 o'clock
and pull it back toward the top of the box while cutting with the left
side of the swept back wing.

I hope this helps, if not let me know.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Nov 7, 9:55 am, "Vic Baron" wrote:
Is a fingernail grind the same as am Ellsworth grind?

I've read of the advantages to the side grind but are the disadvantages?

I have a few small detail gouges that were purchased with the fingernail
grind and was wondering if there'd be any benefit to putting that grind
on a
1/2" spindle gouge. Wondering if it would make hollowing out end grain
easier or harder.

Shifting gears - I'm trying to wrap my head around what I've read about
bowl
gouges. I've read that using a spindle gouge as a bowl gouge could break
the
gouge. I'm assuming we're talking about large pieces here not the cups or
small boxes that I would make. I'm also assuming that the difference
between
hollowing end grain and hollowing face grain is significant - or am I
doing
the typical newbie over think here?

Thanx,

Vic

--
There are 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who
don't

On 11/07/2011 08:55 AM, Vic Baron wrote:
Is a fingernail grind the same as am Ellsworth grind?

More or less. A fingernail grind is usually associated with a spindle
gouge, whereas the Ellsworth grind more specifically refers to the
particular grind that the Ellsworth jig produces on a specific set of
bowl gouges. 5/8" IIRC. They share the characteristic that the wings
are ground back. A more generic term is "Irish grind" or as you say
below "side grind".

I've read of the advantages to the side grind but are the disadvantages?

You can cut a much wider shaving with the side grind if you use the side
rather than the tip. The advantage is it removes a lot of wood really
fast. The disadvantage is if you get a catch it'll likely be an ugly
one. It's an easy grind to control once you figure out how it wants to
cut, and it's a flexible grind - can be used in both a pushing or
pulling cut as well as shear scraping to good affect. You'll want to
experiment on scrap wood though to learn the ropes.

I have a few small detail gouges that were purchased with the fingernail
grind and was wondering if there'd be any benefit to putting that grind
on a 1/2" spindle gouge. Wondering if it would make hollowing out end
grain easier or harder.

I would.


Shifting gears - I'm trying to wrap my head around what I've read about
bowl gouges. I've read that using a spindle gouge as a bowl gouge could
break the gouge. I'm assuming we're talking about large pieces here not
the cups or small boxes that I would make. I'm also assuming that the
difference between hollowing end grain and hollowing face grain is
significant - or am I doing the typical newbie over think here?

I think Fred hit the nail on the head regarding spindle/roughing gouges.

There is a noticeable difference between cutting face grain and end
grain. It's a similar situation to planing face grain and end grain on
a board. Lots easier to plane face grain...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
"In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car."
- Lawrence Summers

Hello Vic,

Probably at your skill level 1-1/2" to 2" maximum, beyond that depth
you will probably need a hollowing tool. Something like the Hunter
Carbide tools. His little straight tool would probably take you safely
to three inches. End grain is difficult to cut with a gouge when you
lose the ability to ride the bevel.

Fred Holder
m http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Nov 7, 1:35*pm, "Vic Baron" wrote:
Hi Fred -

Thanx for the explanation. I can visualize what you are saying. Have to give
it a try!

If using the tool rest across the face of the end grain cup and using a 1/2
gouge - what would you say would me the (safest?) max depth you could hollow
out?

Vic

"Fred Holder" wrote in message

...







Hello Vic,

The Ellsworth Grind is designed for the 5/8 inch deep fluted bowl
gouge. It has a nose angle of 60 degrees and a swept back side grind
that is best obtained with the Ellsworth Jig. I don't consider it to
be the same as the fingernail grind used on spindle gouges. For
spindle gouges, I generally grind a 30 to 35 degree nose bevel and
swing the wings back similar to the Ellsworth Grind. This way you can
use the spindle gouge in a scraping cut if desired.

It is the spindle roughing gouge that they recommend that one not use
for bowls. The reason for this is the small extension of the gouge
that goes into the handle. This is the area where they are likely to
break and often do.

I personally use two spindle gouges: a 1/2 inch Crown spindle gouge
with a 35 degree bevel and swept back wings and a 3/8 inch Hamlet
spindle gouge also ground with the same grind as the 1/2 inch. Plus,
of course, the roughing gouge which is about 1-3/8 inch wide. My
roughing gouge is actually a Robert Sorby Spindle gouge with a
roughing Gouge grind on it, which is probably about 45 degrees.

The spindle roughing gouge I've just described will work fine for
little boxes and the outside of bowls; however, the bevel angle is too
sharp for hollowing bowls. You can use them to hollow End grain boxes
by first drilling a hole to the depth to be hollowed on center. The
with the spindle gouge you go in and cut up toward about 10:00 o'clock
and pull it back toward the top of the box while cutting with the left
side of the swept back wing.

I hope this helps, if not let me know.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Nov 7, 9:55 am, "Vic Baron" wrote:
Is a fingernail grind the same as am Ellsworth grind?

I've read of the advantages to the side grind but are the disadvantages?

I have a few small detail gouges that were purchased with the fingernail
grind and was wondering if there'd be any benefit to putting that grind
on a
1/2" spindle gouge. Wondering if it would make hollowing out end grain
easier or harder.

Shifting gears - I'm trying to wrap my head around what I've read about
bowl
gouges. I've read that using a spindle gouge as a bowl gouge could break
the
gouge. I'm assuming we're talking about large pieces here not the cups or
small boxes that I would make. I'm also assuming that the difference
between
hollowing end grain and hollowing face grain is significant - or am I
doing
the typical newbie over think here?

Thanx,

Vic

--
There are 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who
don't