I feel like making a new tool, either a an Oland tool which uses HSS
cutter inserts, or an Easy Rougher-style tool, which uses carbide
inserts.

What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each one?

In article
,
bobnotbob wrote:

I feel like making a new tool, either a an Oland tool which uses HSS
cutter inserts, or an Easy Rougher-style tool, which uses carbide
inserts.

What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each one?

HSS can be made sharper, and hss toolbits are much more easily shaped to
a particular profile than carbide inserts are. Even if you upgrade to
cobalt HSS, usually cheaper than carbide. You can get carbide tipped
tool bits in the same format, if you want to play with carbide. HSS
takes impact loads (interrupted cuts) better than carbide cutting metal
- I don't know that it matters much cutting wood.

Carbide is never quite as sharp, but gets duller slower. As such, so
long as it stays sharp enough, you can hog off a lot of wood without
stopping to sharpen (or turn the insert, IIRC it's a circular insert and
can be turned for a fresh edge.) The main advantage of inserts is in
production CNC tooling, since the geometry does not change (they are
swapped or turned, not sharpened, in industrial use.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 11:08:50 -0800 (PST), bobnotbob
wrote:

I feel like making a new tool, either a an Oland tool which uses HSS
cutter inserts, or an Easy Rougher-style tool, which uses carbide
inserts.

What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each one?

2 totally different tools, with 2 different materials for cutting/scraping?
One is a big scraper that roughs out a bowl blank with carbide and is way
over priced (woodchuck is $65)

and the other is smaller, uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used at a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Other than that, they're the same tool..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

and the other is smaller, uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used at a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Nothing says you can't make an Oland for 1/2" or even 3/4" toolbits -
other than the bits cost more unless you hit a good machinist estate
sale.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:12:17 -0800, mac davis wrote:

2 totally different tools, with 2 different materials for
cutting/scraping? One is a big scraper that roughs out a bowl blank
with carbide and is way over priced (woodchuck is $65)

I got the woodchuck. I've only used it for a few hours, but so far it
works great. It even does a fairly smooth cut with the sharp radius
cutter taking light cuts.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mac davis wrote:

and the other is smaller, uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used at
a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Nothing says you can't make an Oland for 1/2" or even 3/4" toolbits -
other than the bits cost more unless you hit a good machinist estate
sale.


Like he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7622662651932/

and the next few pics.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Local machine tooling companies or MSCdirect or others sell M42
(better than M2 which is better than normal HSS).

Molly steel is great - trade name is MOMAX for the 'HSS' cutter.

They are available from 1/8" to 3/4" in my shop - but likely much
larger for big shops. e.g. cannon or stone columns.

Martin

Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ecnerwal" wrote in
message
...
In article ,
mac davis wrote:

and the other is smaller, uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used
at a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Nothing says you can't make an Oland for 1/2" or even 3/4" toolbits -
other than the bits cost more unless you hit a good machinist estate
sale.


Like he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7622662651932/


and the next few pics.

The newer micro/nano grained carbide is much finer than the stuff you
use for circular saw blades. These bits can be purchased from several
places, and are comparable to what you get from the makers of the Easy
Rougher, and a lot cheaper, but you do have to buy 5 or so at a time.
They are not made to be resharpened, they are disposable. They cut
very nicely, and cleanly, especially for end grain, like boxes and
hollow forms. The Oland tool is a scraper as well. The smaller general
size is 3/8 inch, and makes it almost catch proof. Not because of the
type of cutter, but because of the size. They both work.

robo hippy


On Feb 6, 8:02*pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
Local machine tooling companies or MSCdirect or others sell M42
(better than M2 which is better than normal HSS).

Molly steel is great - trade name is MOMAX for the 'HSS' cutter.

They are available from 1/8" to 3/4" in my shop - but likely much
larger for big shops. *e.g. cannon or stone columns.

Martin



Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ecnerwal" wrote in
message
...
In article ,
mac davis wrote:

and the other is smaller, *uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used
at a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Nothing says you can't make an Oland for 1/2" or even 3/4" toolbits -
other than the bits cost more unless you hit a good machinist estate
sale.

Like he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312.../set-721576226...

and the next few pics.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:19:36 -0500, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

and the other is smaller, uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used at a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Nothing says you can't make an Oland for 1/2" or even 3/4" toolbits -
other than the bits cost more unless you hit a good machinist estate
sale.

No, but that still doesn't make it a roughing scraper any more than grinding a
groove on top of the bit makes it a bowl gouge..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:02:08 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

I use a few 3/8", but mostly 1/4".. Oland definitely knew what he was doing..

Local machine tooling companies or MSCdirect or others sell M42
(better than M2 which is better than normal HSS).

Molly steel is great - trade name is MOMAX for the 'HSS' cutter.

They are available from 1/8" to 3/4" in my shop - but likely much
larger for big shops. e.g. cannon or stone columns.

Martin

Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ecnerwal" wrote in
message
...
In article ,
mac davis wrote:

and the other is smaller, uses a 1/4" HSS cutter and is usually used
at a
shearing angle to shape and hollow..

Nothing says you can't make an Oland for 1/2" or even 3/4" toolbits -
other than the bits cost more unless you hit a good machinist estate
sale.


Like he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7622662651932/


and the next few pics.



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:58:32 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

snip
I got the woodchuck. I've only used it for a few hours, but so far it
works great. It even does a fairly smooth cut with the sharp radius
cutter taking light cuts.

I'm waiting for mine to get here... Ken had some really horrendous weather and
couldn't get it in the mail last week..

I've done 2 pieces since I ordered it and could have REALLY used it on both


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

What is HCS - Carbide steel or cobalt steel ? HSS is a broad spectrum
of alloys not a specific. M2, M42 are HSS as is Mo-Max.

Sapphire is sharper and is used to cut hydrocarbon and like materials.

Martin

Ralph E Lindberg wrote:
In article
,
Ecnerwal wrote:

In article
,
bobnotbob wrote:

I feel like making a new tool, either a an Oland tool which uses HSS
cutter inserts, or an Easy Rougher-style tool, which uses carbide
inserts.

What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each one?
HSS can be made sharper, and hss toolbits are much more easily shaped to
a particular profile than carbide inserts are. Even if you upgrade to
cobalt HSS, usually cheaper than carbide. You can get carbide tipped
tool bits in the same format, if you want to play with carbide. HSS
takes impact loads (interrupted cuts) better than carbide cutting metal
- I don't know that it matters much cutting wood.

Carbide is never quite as sharp, but gets duller slower. As such, so
long as it stays sharp enough, you can hog off a lot of wood without
stopping to sharpen (or turn the insert, IIRC it's a circular insert and
can be turned for a fresh edge.) The main advantage of inserts is in
production CNC tooling, since the geometry does not change (they are
swapped or turned, not sharpened, in industrial use.)

From an article in last years American Wood Turner (co written by Alan
Lacer and a PhD in Materials) and a discussion with a fellow Engineer
(MS Materials) the above is not quite true. Any more then the story that
HCS is sharper then HSS.

What HCS is, is -easier- to get scary sharp then HSS, just as HSS is
easier to get scary sharp then a Carbide edge

"Ralph E Lindberg" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Ecnerwal wrote:

In article
,
bobnotbob wrote:

I feel like making a new tool, either a an Oland tool which uses HSS
cutter inserts, or an Easy Rougher-style tool, which uses carbide
inserts.

What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each one?

HSS can be made sharper, and hss toolbits are much more easily shaped to
a particular profile than carbide inserts are. Even if you upgrade to
cobalt HSS, usually cheaper than carbide. You can get carbide tipped
tool bits in the same format, if you want to play with carbide. HSS
takes impact loads (interrupted cuts) better than carbide cutting metal
- I don't know that it matters much cutting wood.

Carbide is never quite as sharp, but gets duller slower. As such, so
long as it stays sharp enough, you can hog off a lot of wood without
stopping to sharpen (or turn the insert, IIRC it's a circular insert and
can be turned for a fresh edge.) The main advantage of inserts is in
production CNC tooling, since the geometry does not change (they are
swapped or turned, not sharpened, in industrial use.)

From an article in last years American Wood Turner (co written by Alan
Lacer and a PhD in Materials) and a discussion with a fellow Engineer
(MS Materials) the above is not quite true. Any more then the story that
HCS is sharper then HSS.

What HCS is, is -easier- to get scary sharp then HSS, just as HSS is
easier to get scary sharp then a Carbide edge

--

I haven't personally taken the electron microscope or high magnification
photos, but I have read books on the various tool steels and used carbide,
HSS (various alloys) and carbon steel tools - I would humbly disagree - the
HSS will take a sharper edge and this is because it is softer - it won't
hold the edge all that long, but while it is there, it is sharper. If you
look at carbide, particularly the inserts for metal lathes, the edges are
rounded. Sharpen with a diamond and look under magnification - you just
don't get a true razor edge - hone all you want, it fractures on grain
boundaries and you get a less sharp edge - at least this is what I see and
what my reading suggests. But, whatever works for you

On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:52:24 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote:


I haven't personally taken the electron microscope or high magnification
photos, but I have read books on the various tool steels and used carbide,
HSS (various alloys) and carbon steel tools - I would humbly disagree - the
HSS will take a sharper edge and this is because it is softer - it won't
hold the edge all that long, but while it is there, it is sharper. If you
look at carbide, particularly the inserts for metal lathes, the edges are
rounded. Sharpen with a diamond and look under magnification - you just
don't get a true razor edge - hone all you want, it fractures on grain
boundaries and you get a less sharp edge - at least this is what I see and
what my reading suggests. But, whatever works for you


Bill.. Is "nano grain" or whatever they call it just a marketing thing, or does
it actually have smaller grain for a sharper edge?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

HCS ?

How about a vendor ? or use.

I cut plastic and fiber from time to time.
It would be useful on fortified Al and Si-Bronze.

Martin

mac davis wrote:
On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:52:24 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote:


I haven't personally taken the electron microscope or high magnification
photos, but I have read books on the various tool steels and used carbide,
HSS (various alloys) and carbon steel tools - I would humbly disagree - the
HSS will take a sharper edge and this is because it is softer - it won't
hold the edge all that long, but while it is there, it is sharper. If you
look at carbide, particularly the inserts for metal lathes, the edges are
rounded. Sharpen with a diamond and look under magnification - you just
don't get a true razor edge - hone all you want, it fractures on grain
boundaries and you get a less sharp edge - at least this is what I see and
what my reading suggests. But, whatever works for you


Bill.. Is "nano grain" or whatever they call it just a marketing thing, or does
it actually have smaller grain for a sharper edge?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:52:24 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

snip


Bill.. Is "nano grain" or whatever they call it just a marketing thing, or
does
it actually have smaller grain for a sharper edge?


mac


well, that sounds like a fun research project - the way you heat treat the
material affects grain size -it's been a very long time since those classes

I did find this abstract, though I must admit to not reading the article

Abstract Dense nanocrystalline BaTiO3 (BT) ceramics with grain size (GS) 50
nm were successfully prepared by spark plasma sintering (SPS) method. The
nanoindentation experiment was used to test the hardness of different GS BT
ceramics. It was found that the hardness of 50 nm nanograin BT ceramics
increased 82% than that of 1.2 μm BT ceramics fabricated by conventional
sintering (CS) process. Dislocation pinning resulting from the increase of
grain boundary by ultrafine GS are believed to be the dominant factor in
raising strength. Restriction on dislocation generation and mobility due to
the domain wall motion and sliding imposed by ultrafine GS are expected to
be exceptionally important. At the same time, the large stress in nanograin
BT ceramics may also play a role in producing high strength. These
differences of the hardness behavior between BT ceramics are attributed to
the variation of the resultant microstructure, especially the GS of the
ceramics.

On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:40:05 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote:

well, that sounds like a fun research project - the way you heat treat the
material affects grain size -it's been a very long time since those classes

I did find this abstract, though I must admit to not reading the article

Abstract Dense nanocrystalline BaTiO3 (BT) ceramics with grain size (GS) 50
nm were successfully prepared by spark plasma sintering (SPS) method. The
nanoindentation experiment was used to test the hardness of different GS BT
ceramics. It was found that the hardness of 50 nm nanograin BT ceramics
increased 82% than that of 1.2 ?m BT ceramics fabricated by conventional
sintering (CS) process. Dislocation pinning resulting from the increase of
grain boundary by ultrafine GS are believed to be the dominant factor in
raising strength. Restriction on dislocation generation and mobility due to
the domain wall motion and sliding imposed by ultrafine GS are expected to
be exceptionally important. At the same time, the large stress in nanograin
BT ceramics may also play a role in producing high strength. These
differences of the hardness behavior between BT ceramics are attributed to
the variation of the resultant microstructure, especially the GS of the
ceramics.

What's that mean in English, Bill?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I think it means that the technology is improving to the point that
they can make it harder and sharper by using smaller particles. The
difference between the final sharpness is getting less and less,
hopefully to the point where there is no difference.

robo hippy

On Feb 9, 11:23*pm, mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:40:05 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote:
well, that sounds like a fun research project - the way you heat treat the
material affects grain size -it's been a very long time since those classes

I did find this abstract, though I must admit to not reading the article

Abstract *Dense nanocrystalline BaTiO3 (BT) ceramics with grain size (GS) 50
nm were successfully prepared by spark plasma sintering (SPS) method. The
nanoindentation experiment was used to test the hardness of different GS BT
ceramics. It was found that the hardness of 50 nm nanograin BT ceramics
increased 82% than that of 1.2 ?m BT ceramics fabricated by conventional
sintering (CS) process. Dislocation pinning resulting from the increase of
grain boundary by ultrafine GS are believed to be the dominant factor in
raising strength. Restriction on dislocation generation and mobility due to
the domain wall motion and sliding imposed by ultrafine GS are expected to
be exceptionally important. At the same time, the large stress in nanograin
BT ceramics may also play a role in producing high strength. These
differences of the hardness behavior between BT ceramics are attributed to
the variation of the resultant microstructure, especially the GS of the
ceramics.

What's that mean in English, Bill?

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:40:05 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

well, that sounds like a fun research project - the way you heat treat the
material affects grain size -it's been a very long time since those
classes

I did find this abstract, though I must admit to not reading the article

Abstract Dense nanocrystalline BaTiO3 (BT) ceramics with grain size (GS)
50
nm were successfully prepared by spark plasma sintering (SPS) method. The
nanoindentation experiment was used to test the hardness of different GS
BT
ceramics. It was found that the hardness of 50 nm nanograin BT ceramics
increased 82% than that of 1.2 ?m BT ceramics fabricated by conventional
sintering (CS) process. Dislocation pinning resulting from the increase of
grain boundary by ultrafine GS are believed to be the dominant factor in
raising strength. Restriction on dislocation generation and mobility due
to
the domain wall motion and sliding imposed by ultrafine GS are expected to
be exceptionally important. At the same time, the large stress in
nanograin
BT ceramics may also play a role in producing high strength. These
differences of the hardness behavior between BT ceramics are attributed to
the variation of the resultant microstructure, especially the GS of the
ceramics.

What's that mean in English, Bill?


mac

aaah, mac - I think this is where I follow Mark Twain's advise about
silence.....

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:43:07 -0800 (PST), robo hippy
wrote:

Sounds reasonable.. I just got a Woodchuck bowl pro and it's VERY sharp.. great
tool..

I think it means that the technology is improving to the point that
they can make it harder and sharper by using smaller particles. The
difference between the final sharpness is getting less and less,
hopefully to the point where there is no difference.

robo hippy

On Feb 9, 11:23*pm, mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:40:05 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote:
well, that sounds like a fun research project - the way you heat treat the
material affects grain size -it's been a very long time since those classes

I did find this abstract, though I must admit to not reading the article

Abstract *Dense nanocrystalline BaTiO3 (BT) ceramics with grain size (GS) 50
nm were successfully prepared by spark plasma sintering (SPS) method. The
nanoindentation experiment was used to test the hardness of different GS BT
ceramics. It was found that the hardness of 50 nm nanograin BT ceramics
increased 82% than that of 1.2 ?m BT ceramics fabricated by conventional
sintering (CS) process. Dislocation pinning resulting from the increase of
grain boundary by ultrafine GS are believed to be the dominant factor in
raising strength. Restriction on dislocation generation and mobility due to
the domain wall motion and sliding imposed by ultrafine GS are expected to
be exceptionally important. At the same time, the large stress in nanograin
BT ceramics may also play a role in producing high strength. These
differences of the hardness behavior between BT ceramics are attributed to
the variation of the resultant microstructure, especially the GS of the
ceramics.

What's that mean in English, Bill?

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:48:23 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote:


BT ceramics may also play a role in producing high strength. These
differences of the hardness behavior between BT ceramics are attributed to
the variation of the resultant microstructure, especially the GS of the
ceramics.

What's that mean in English, Bill?


mac

aaah, mac - I think this is where I follow Mark Twain's advise about
silence.....

I think Robo Hippy is on the right track..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing