Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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Default Musing about professional woodturners.

(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it.

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons.

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



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Default Musing about professional woodturners.

Arch wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it.

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons.

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



Glad you made it through the ordeal. Glad to have you back. Missed you
and your observations.

Could be that professionals in other fields are better paid than
woodturners and don't want competition for their dollar.
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Arch,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Professionals of all stripes
tend to share with those in their discipline. As an engineer, the
people in my professional association work well together. We also
work with engineering students to encourage their participation and
success as engineers. I suspect medical professionals collaborate, as
well as others within their disciplines.

Maybe what makes any crafts-based discipline different than degree-
based disciplines is that our roots in the crafts means that many
professionals started as hobbyists and enthusiasts. We represent the
educational base for our discipline. We do not have any professional
programs for woodturners. The closest we have are woodworking
programs and arts/design programs. Both may touch on woodturning, but
neither focus on it.

Joe Fleming, San Diego



On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it. *

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * *

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.

Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


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Default Musing about professional woodturners.

In message , Arch
writes
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it.

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons.

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.


Turn to Safety, Arch


Nice to see you back Arch, I wonder if you got to "convert" any of these
so-called "Professionals" Maybe you taught them the ins and outs of
wood toxicity etc.

So you were "Lying" whilst in bed. "Honest Nurse I am only 21"

As a Veterinary friend of mine pointed out some time back it is the
"Practice of Medicine"

Maybe because they are too busy "Practising" they loose site of the
ability to enjoy the journey that most engineers still have.

For an engineer. There is a problem that can usually be defined to a
lesser or greater extent. Once defined, there are often a selection of
solutions depending on available tools.

For a Medical practitioner. They sometimes identify the problem, but
more often a part of it, end even less often the cause, and without
knowing the cause it can often be difficult to identify the correct fix,
hence, in some ways each patient is an experiment in finding a specific
cure.

As to turning while using a walker, modify the walker to be your tool
rest

--
John
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On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 18:12:29 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Well, Arch, glad you're still on the proper side of the grass..

After your experience, I'm sure you can appreciate this:

What's the difference between God and a doctor?
God never thought he was a doctor...



(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it.

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons.

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


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Default Musing about professional woodturners.

On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:42:58 -0800 (PST), Joe Fleming
wrote:

I see valid points there, Joe, but a big difference..

In my experience, (I guess I'm a professional turner), most trades are very
guarded and secretive about what they know and what they'll share with the
"competition"..
Turners seem eager to share their techniques, tips, etc. with others.. As you
said, maybe it's because we started out at hobby folks..


Arch,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Professionals of all stripes
tend to share with those in their discipline. As an engineer, the
people in my professional association work well together. We also
work with engineering students to encourage their participation and
success as engineers. I suspect medical professionals collaborate, as
well as others within their disciplines.

Maybe what makes any crafts-based discipline different than degree-
based disciplines is that our roots in the crafts means that many
professionals started as hobbyists and enthusiasts. We represent the
educational base for our discipline. We do not have any professional
programs for woodturners. The closest we have are woodworking
programs and arts/design programs. Both may touch on woodturning, but
neither focus on it.

Joe Fleming, San Diego



On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it. *

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * *

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.

Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing
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Arch,
Good to have you back. I was wondering why we hadn't heard from you
for a while. Hope the mending goes well for you.

As far as the medical profession goes, I guess it is like all things
and the people involved. We are all different. I have had some doctors
who are cold and distant, and some who are warm and friendly. Smaller
organizations tend to be more friendly. The big hospital less so. Thus
far, I haven't had to experience too much of the big stuff yet, but
old age is catching up with me.

robo hippy

On Nov 4, 8:24*am, mac davis wrote:
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:42:58 -0800 (PST), Joe Fleming
wrote:

I see valid points there, Joe, but a big difference..

In my experience, (I guess I'm a professional turner), most trades are very
guarded and secretive about what they know and what they'll share with the
"competition"..
Turners seem eager to share their techniques, tips, etc. with others.. As you
said, maybe it's because we started out at hobby folks..





Arch,


I think you hit the nail on the head. *Professionals of all stripes
tend to share with those in their discipline. *As an engineer, the
people in my professional association work well together. *We also
work with engineering students to encourage their participation and
success as engineers. *I suspect medical professionals collaborate, as
well as others within their disciplines.


Maybe what makes any crafts-based discipline different than degree-
based disciplines is that our roots in the crafts means that many
professionals started as hobbyists and enthusiasts. *We represent the
educational base for our discipline. *We do not have any professional
programs for woodturners. *The closest we have are woodworking
programs and arts/design programs. *Both may touch on woodturning, but
neither focus on it.


Joe Fleming, San Diego


On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)


Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it. *


Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)


In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.


Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * *


Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.


Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


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On Nov 3, 6:12 pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it.

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons.

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


Arch it's so good to hear from you again. Sorry to hear about your
health problems and I hope all is now well.
Your comments about not undercutting with low prices has hit a sore
spot for me. I'll explain.
I live in an area that is notorious for being cheep. I won't bore you
all with the gory details why, that's just the way it is.
I do not want to deal with the public so choose to sell through a
local retail store. They price and take their cut. What's left is not
a lot and certainly sometimes is almost at insult level. Stuff moves
very slowly and mostly during wedding season and holiday season. The
store does put a lot of effort into displays and promotion but the
price is always the deciding factor. So other members of my Guild
accuse me of selling too cheap but they are not in competition
directly in my area. I could get more if I chose to sell elsewhere but
then the expenses pile up and the added value goes in to someone
else's pocket leaving me at the same income.
All my working life I've been a contractor and had to deal with being
undercut by weekend warriors and retiree's supplementing pensions so
now it's my turn.
So any one who doesn't like my prices should take a long hard look at
why an item is priced the way it is and not assume that the maker is
deliberately trying to undercut a professional.
The only reason I sell is to get rid of stuff that would otherwise
just pile up in the workshop or my home. Sure I could run around all
over hell's half acre donating to charity or other "worthy" causes but
that just results in a drain on my limited income. I have seen prices
fetched by others at charity auctions and they are below what is sold
by me. So if a "professional" feels I am in some way restricting his/
her ability to make money then all I can suggest is come and put your
item next to mine and price equally and if you are a "professional"
and your work is of professional quality then you will out sell me.
That success will allow you to ask more next time and isn't that how
you arrived at the price level you now enjoy?
We live in a "free market" society and that market is driven by what
people will pay not by fixing prices.
That's it.
Just something for you to get your teeth into ;-)
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Hi CanC, Many thanks for your kind thoughts and well reasoned response.

There's also another side of the coin. I mean the person that does
shoddy or tacky work, calls himself a professional and sells (or offers
to sell) his junk at prices so high and laughable that it demeans the
good work of other turners.

You only have to look on EBay or many web sites to see some of these
travesties. However in the end, I reckon that a competative market
rules.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



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Arch, It is good to see you are still kicking. I hope your recovery is
rapid and excellent.

I just have to add a bit on the selling. I did the craft markets in my
area after I retired in 1993 through 1996. I kept careful records of
time and costs and what I earned from the sales. My work may not have
been expert quality, but it was better than average. At the end of
three years, I tallied up the results. It turned out that I had
averaged 25 cents per hour for that three years of turning. That was
when I decided to go back to my trade of writing, but about
woodturning.

I didn't quit selling my work, but mostly only sold an occasional
piece and much of it since 1996 has been donated to auctions to raise
money for some worthy cause. Some time back, I made two Chinese Balls
out of alternative ivory and priced them at $500.00. One of them sold.
The other I thought I would keep. The Senior Center where my wife and
I exercise and attend carving classes and square dance was having an
auction to raise money for operating expenses. I donated that other
alternative ivory Chinese Ball for the auction, setting the value at
$500.00. For display purposes, the director asked if I could supply
some of the books I've written to help the display of the Chinese
Ball. Well they sold the Chinese Ball valued at $500.00 plus another
$100.00 worth of books for $70.00. The director said that he thought
it would have sold for more if it had been made of wood. Anyway, that
is why I don't bother with selling my work anymore.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Nov 5, 8:38*am, Canchippy wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:12 pm, (Arch) wrote:



(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)


Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it.


Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)


In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.


Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons.


Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.


Turn to Safety, *Arch
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


Arch it's so good to hear from you again. Sorry to hear about your
health problems and I hope all is now well.
Your comments about not undercutting with low prices has hit a sore
spot for me. I'll explain.
I live in an area that is notorious for being cheep. I won't bore you
all with the gory details why, that's just the way it is.
I do not want to deal with the public so choose to sell through a
local retail store. They price and take their cut. What's left is not
a lot and certainly sometimes is almost at insult level. Stuff moves
very slowly and mostly during wedding season and holiday season. The
store does put a lot of effort into displays and promotion but the
price is always the deciding factor. So other members of my Guild
accuse me of selling too cheap but they are not in competition
directly in my area. I could get more if I chose to sell elsewhere but
then the expenses pile up and the added value goes in to someone
else's pocket leaving me at the same income.
All my working life I've been a contractor and had to deal with being
undercut by weekend warriors and retiree's supplementing pensions so
now it's my turn.
So any one who doesn't like my prices should take a long hard look at
why an item is priced the way it is and not assume that the maker is
deliberately trying to undercut a professional.
The only reason I sell is to get rid of stuff that would otherwise
just pile up in the workshop *or my home. Sure I could run around all
over hell's half acre donating to charity or other "worthy" causes but
that just results in a drain on my limited income. I have seen prices
fetched by others at charity auctions and they are below what is sold
by me. So if a "professional" feels I am in some way restricting his/
her ability to make money then all I can suggest is come and put your
item next to mine and price equally and if you are a "professional"
and your work is of professional quality then you will out sell me.
That success will allow you to ask more next time and isn't that how
you arrived at the price level you now enjoy?
We live in a "free market" society and that market is driven by what
people will pay not by fixing prices.
That's it.
Just something for you to get your teeth into ;-)




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On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication
and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound
fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's
not pertinent here.)

Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with
professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and
one reason for it. *

Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being
amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their
expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't
just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we
hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for
peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.)

In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite,
and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their
fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other
professionals.

Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven
hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * *

Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while
using a walker wouldn't be amiss either.

Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter


WOW! Glad you are still with us!!

If you turn while using the walker, do it seated. If you don't want to
do that, do Lock the Brakes.

Get well soon, your musings and wisdom are sorely missed!!

LD
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