For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

OK, I'm not very active on this group, but I do check in, and lurk once
or twice a day.
Over the past several years I've noticed peaks and valleys in posting.
I am very much indebted to the faithful here, and always get good answers to
questions.

Seems like summers are a little slow, but pick up when the rain and
snow
begin.

Thanks to you, Fred for all that I've gleaned from your posts, and
for the incredible wealth of material available through your website.

Some of the ISP's (like Comcast, for example) have stopped their
free newsgroups service, and that could certainly be a factor. I tried
reading it through Google, but I'm not sure I see everything.

Don't give up!

Old Chief Lynn



"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Fred Holder wrote:
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net
Hi Fred,

I have enjoyed your posts and even took your magazine for awhile which
had many good articles. I know that after 10/25 comcast in our area will
no longer bring us free newsgroups. We will also have to find another
source. Maybe a lot of companies are doing this just to squeeze a few
more bucks out of us.

I hope this group also picks back up because I have learned much from it
and you.

Tim D

I also suspect that summer time (US, not Oz) still sees people doing
outdoor things instead of interneting or maybe even working in their
shops, generating questions that need to be answered here.. For my
own little "vanity" website, I track hits for 19 of my pages by season
and have seen this "lower in summer" pattern for years.
Of course, for me, things like my Cub Cadet page peak in the summer
and the Maple Syrup page peaks between February and May.

I do add content to try to keep some freshness, too. Maybe the
thoughts about OT postings and flaming do come to bear, too.

Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

Fred Holder wrote:
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

I check messages regularly. I don't join in much because, as a beginner, I
can't really contribute anything useful - but I do learn a lot from this
group and appreciate all the good information that gets published here. I'd
rather see a few useful messages than, like certain other newsgroups,
hundreds of off-topic, flame, spam or generally irrelevant junk.

Lynn wrote:
OK, I'm not very active on this group, but I do check in, and lurk once
or twice a day.
Over the past several years I've noticed peaks and valleys in posting.
I am very much indebted to the faithful here, and always get good answers to
questions.

Seems like summers are a little slow, but pick up when the rain and
snow
begin.

Thanks to you, Fred for all that I've gleaned from your posts, and
for the incredible wealth of material available through your website.

Some of the ISP's (like Comcast, for example) have stopped their
free newsgroups service, and that could certainly be a factor. I tried
reading it through Google, but I'm not sure I see everything.

Don't give up!

Old Chief Lynn



"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Fred,
Actually some of us block Google groups due to the higher percentage
of spam from this source. Yes, I too check in a couple of times a day
but don't participate actively as much as I could.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

A lie in time saves nine.

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Fred Holder
wrote:

For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

I think it's just fluctuating, Fred, like all groups do..

2 other factors come to mind:

With the major ISP's not supporting newsgroups, it will take a while for folks
to find new news servers..

I've read a LOT of folks posts saying that they're avoiding the groups until
after the election, due to all the political threads..

I read all messages here once or twice a day and post if I can help, or be a
smart ass.. ;-]


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I have been enjoying the group and getting great value. I don't always post
but I do get alot of good information from the list.

"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

I've been a lurker and a minor poster for years, and there are definite
times of year that it seems to drop off. Leo, Arch, Mac and CharlieB
have always had some good information or thought provoking posts. I know
I've seen serveral times, usually around the end of November where the,
"Sorry I've been out enjoying the beautifull turning weather," posts. I
will be looking for a decent outside provider so I can still get my
random Arch fix after Comcast drops their service

Mike

To make kindling is human, to finish the "project" divine.

For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

In message
, Fred
Holder writes
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Hi Fred

I have been on the web for over ten years now and have seen a steady
decline in newsgroups, and forums. One newsgroups that I participated in
for a considerable time that had 50+ messages a day has almost died a
death. My own forum has seen a steady decline over the last 5 years. It
is only on a mailing list I belong to does the membership remain as high
as it ever was, though many of the long standing members tend to lurk.

There are a number of issues.

How many times can an existing member post the same subject, or find a
different way to post the same subject? Once you have talked on
something several times, it becomes of less interest, and is only when a
new member comes along and asks the question, does the old answer get
resurrected

Ten years ago the Internet was still in its infancy, Newsgroups were one
of the first places to find information on topics of interest. These
days as many of you have discovered how to build your own website, put
much of your knowledge there, so often no need to put it here. In
addition to this the Internet search engines have become better in what
they do, finding the answer to the question.

Yet more growth and the Internet has provided video sources such as
Youtube, where you can see how to do something, and as they say a
picture is worth a thousand words.

As time has passed , the better sites have become more popular,,
consolidating their position, and the poorer sites dropped by the
wayside. In my own area of interest, my website has been number one on
Google for almost 10 years, but as the time has passed, there is little
if no competition left. Many sites having been set up by students, with
no further interest, as it was something to pass the time during
education./

Forums see a rise in membership as the kids return to education in the
Autumn, and drops off again as summer approaches, its a common cycle.

There is also the factor that like many other hobbies, the age of those
interested is in general rising. In Amateur Radio, very few youngsters
join the hobby so the core age has risen considerably. Woodturning I
would say is likewise, dare I say for many it is a sport for retirement
?

Engineering is in a general decline in the UK, and I suspect elsewhere.
On top of that there is a lack of enquiring minds out there, and dare I
say it common sense, so less interest. If it can be run from a keyboard,
or better still a remote, its going to be time consuming for those,
without patience, whose lives are so busy, chasing around doing nothing.

I addition to all that. Clubs have grown, providing a local venue for
many, though I must say for me it is more convenient to ask the odd
question here, as I still believe there are many more on here than at a
local group, so greater variety of solutions.

The decline will continue as Woodworking forums appear, grow , decline,
merge.

The net is stilll evolving and once they get over spending their time
bloggging, maybe people will discover that there is a real world out
there with things to discover
--
John

John schreef:
In message
, Fred
Holder writes
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Hi Fred

I have been on the web for over ten years now and have seen a steady
decline in newsgroups, and forums. One newsgroups that I participated in
for a considerable time that had 50+ messages a day has almost died a
death. My own forum has seen a steady decline over the last 5 years. It
is only on a mailing list I belong to does the membership remain as high
as it ever was, though many of the long standing members tend to lurk.

There are a number of issues.

How many times can an existing member post the same subject, or find a
different way to post the same subject? Once you have talked on
something several times, it becomes of less interest, and is only when a
new member comes along and asks the question, does the old answer get
resurrected

Ten years ago the Internet was still in its infancy, Newsgroups were one
of the first places to find information on topics of interest. These
days as many of you have discovered how to build your own website, put
much of your knowledge there, so often no need to put it here. In
addition to this the Internet search engines have become better in what
they do, finding the answer to the question.

Yet more growth and the Internet has provided video sources such as
Youtube, where you can see how to do something, and as they say a
picture is worth a thousand words.

As time has passed , the better sites have become more popular,,
consolidating their position, and the poorer sites dropped by the
wayside. In my own area of interest, my website has been number one on
Google for almost 10 years, but as the time has passed, there is little
if no competition left. Many sites having been set up by students, with
no further interest, as it was something to pass the time during
education./

Forums see a rise in membership as the kids return to education in the
Autumn, and drops off again as summer approaches, its a common cycle.

There is also the factor that like many other hobbies, the age of those
interested is in general rising. In Amateur Radio, very few youngsters
join the hobby so the core age has risen considerably. Woodturning I
would say is likewise, dare I say for many it is a sport for retirement ?

Engineering is in a general decline in the UK, and I suspect elsewhere.
On top of that there is a lack of enquiring minds out there, and dare I
say it common sense, so less interest. If it can be run from a keyboard,
or better still a remote, its going to be time consuming for those,
without patience, whose lives are so busy, chasing around doing nothing.

I addition to all that. Clubs have grown, providing a local venue for
many, though I must say for me it is more convenient to ask the odd
question here, as I still believe there are many more on here than at a
local group, so greater variety of solutions.

The decline will continue as Woodworking forums appear, grow , decline,
merge.

The net is stilll evolving and once they get over spending their time
bloggging, maybe people will discover that there is a real world out
there with things to discover
I agree with this.
Quality will return after the big meltdown.

Fred Holder wrote:
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net


I don't think I've contributed here before, but I've been reading for a
year or so.

I think that the main reason that this newsgroup (as well as many
others) is dying is that it is text only. A lot of discussions are made
clearer by referencing photos/drawings and that is easier on the various
forums that exist (I use http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/ and WOW).
UKWorkshop, for example, lets me post messages that have embedded images
rather than having to post a message that says to follow various links.
It can take a while to get used to because you require personal image
hosting but, once set up, it's pretty straightforward.

Another potential problem with newsgroups is that they are un-moderated,
and this can lead to spam problems and discussions that get out of hand.

Duncan

--
----------------------------
www.duncanhoyle.com
----------------------------

A good point Fred, however I like many others in the UK enjoy reading posts
from the USA. I get on the newsgroup daily, but must confess that my
postings are not as frequent as they should be. It's like a club annual
general meeting. Everyone wants the benefits but don't want to get too
involved! Maybe your little dig will kickstart some life into a few more
keyboards. We all enjoy turning, so let's tell our global friends what we
are making, the pitfalls endured and the solutions that may just help
others. After all, we are a community!

Charlie

Wood, the most alive dead substance on the planet!

--


Charlie Jones
Student Workshop Supervisor
Department of Physical and Theoretical Chemistry
South Parks Road
Oxford
OX1 3QZ

tel, 01865 27516
fax, 01865 275410
"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Stuart wrote:
In article ,
Duncan Hoyle wrote:
I think that the main reason that this newsgroup (as well as many
others) is dying is that it is text only. A lot of discussions are made
clearer by referencing photos/drawings and that is easier on the various
forums that exist

Alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking can be used, referenced from here, but
it seems a lot of ISPs are now blocking binary groups.

I'm OK personally because I use a small, admittedly more expensive than
many, independant ISP, whose owner listens to his customers and gets his
feed from Giganews.


I'm aware of that group but it's extra hassle to come here and then have
to follow links to images over there when I can go to a forum and see a
message with embedded images.

My ISP does carry the group but I've never bothered to subscribe - it's
mostly none turning and I'm mainly interested in turning.

Duncan

--
----------------------------
www.duncanhoyle.com
----------------------------

In message , Duncan
Hoyle writes
Fred Holder wrote:
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.
I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem.
It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.
Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net


I don't think I've contributed here before, but I've been reading for a
year or so.

I think that the main reason that this newsgroup (as well as many
others) is dying is that it is text only. A lot of discussions are made
clearer by referencing photos/drawings and that is easier on the
various forums that exist (I use http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/
and WOW).
UKWorkshop, for example, lets me post messages that have embedded
images rather than having to post a message that says to follow various
links. It can take a while to get used to because you require personal
image hosting but, once set up, it's pretty straightforward.

Another potential problem with newsgroups is that they are
un-moderated, and this can lead to spam problems and discussions that
get out of hand.

Duncan

One of the problems forgotten by the majority of Internet users these
days is that images are BIG, they may help illustrate a point but are a
bandwidth killer. A friend recently lived in Nigeria, and his Best
connection speed was about 28K for a few hours a day when the web was
working and for the occasional week per month when the copper cables
hadn't been stolen ! and that was in the region of $60 US a month IIRC.
Basically its forgotten that there are many out there with a slow
expensive connection speed.

Many websites now provide bandwidth hogging flash etc., forgetting the
user who pays per minute. This is where newsgroups stand on their own.

I think also many ISP's just don't give enough information on what
newsgroups are about.

And then there are those who have tried newsgroups, not knowing that
they really shouldn't put their email address unless they want to join
the billion and 1 spam lists It sort of frightens them off

As to newsgroups being unmoderated, that is not strictly true, you can
set up newsgroups that are moderated, just in this case its not

In the UK the government wants 90% of homes on the NET, which is easily
achievable, but then you will probably find 80% of the users are not
"Internet Ready"
--
John

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:01:20 GMT, Duncan Hoyle
wrote:

Stuart wrote:
In article ,
Duncan Hoyle wrote:
I think that the main reason that this newsgroup (as well as many
others) is dying is that it is text only. A lot of discussions are made
clearer by referencing photos/drawings and that is easier on the various
forums that exist

Alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking can be used, referenced from here, but
it seems a lot of ISPs are now blocking binary groups.

I'm OK personally because I use a small, admittedly more expensive than
many, independant ISP, whose owner listens to his customers and gets his
feed from Giganews.


I'm aware of that group but it's extra hassle to come here and then have
to follow links to images over there when I can go to a forum and see a
message with embedded images.

My ISP does carry the group but I've never bothered to subscribe - it's
mostly none turning and I'm mainly interested in turning.

Duncan
To me, it's a trade off.. I'd rather take the time to go to APBW and see the
pictures that interest me, than be on a browser-based forum and see pictures
(and sometimes ads) with each post..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

It might be a little slow over the summer but it better not die, where else
am I going to find all of my expertize. Ask a ? get a half dozen great
answers from someone thats been there done that. I need you folks. Have
just started trying to do some natural edge oblong bowls all small, this is
something I would not of tried on my own but with help form the groups I
gave it a shot and they didn't come out to bad, but sanding in thin air is a
very delitate touch or a big ouch. Hope everyone gets to turn something new
just for the heck of it.


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Fred Holder wrote:
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net
Fred -

Hope this gets out and to you - So many of the ISP's are killing
usenet. This is from scare and threats from RIAA.

There were or are audio and video groups that were claimed (guess they were)
posting copyrighted information.

Shamefully the ISP's killed the servers themselves and RIAA etc. ignored
the East and West coast farms that all ISP's draw from should have deleted the
groups. And only an ISP can create a group through requesting it through a
farm.

I had to pay a monthly fee with another supplier to get back online.

AND for wood - IKE gave me some nice turning wood.


Martin

mac davis wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:01:20 GMT, Duncan Hoyle
wrote:

Stuart wrote:
In article ,
Duncan Hoyle wrote:
I think that the main reason that this newsgroup (as well as many
others) is dying is that it is text only. A lot of discussions are made
clearer by referencing photos/drawings and that is easier on the various
forums that exist
Alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking can be used, referenced from here, but
it seems a lot of ISPs are now blocking binary groups.

I'm OK personally because I use a small, admittedly more expensive than
many, independant ISP, whose owner listens to his customers and gets his
feed from Giganews.

I'm aware of that group but it's extra hassle to come here and then have
to follow links to images over there when I can go to a forum and see a
message with embedded images.

My ISP does carry the group but I've never bothered to subscribe - it's
mostly none turning and I'm mainly interested in turning.

Duncan
To me, it's a trade off.. I'd rather take the time to go to APBW and see the
pictures that interest me, than be on a browser-based forum and see pictures
(and sometimes ads) with each post..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing
Mac, are you a member of WOW. You should be. It's a great resource.

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:15:47 -0500, Fred Holder wrote
(in message
):

For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Others have already addressed this issue, in this thread, so I am simply
reiterating, I guess.

ISPs are dropping usenet groups for one reason or another. Many Internet
users do not know of the existence of usenet or do not know how to "get on"
usenet. Some readers here maybe get what they came for, and then left.

I am a new reader here, as some of you already know. I'll tell you some of
what I get from this NG. Sure, I can do a mean Google and come up with
hundreds of thousands of hits on a query... and then try to wade through all
the dreck before getting to the gold. If I make a query here, I get the good
stuff right away, already pre-screened and tested, and no sales pitch to
please try their own line of doodad.

I am pursuing a modest line of experiments now, based entirely on information
gained here at r.c.w and have cut years, likely, off of the tinkering
timeline, and saved considerable scrap in the preocess. I guess I am in the
process of learning something about drying/curing of wood, which many of you
are already comfy with and have graciously shared your knowledge here.

Be of good cheer. Maybe the traffic here is not as high as it may have seemed
at other times, but there is still traffic. Readers are benefiting from your
skills and mistakes. Usenet is much easier and simpler to use than most of
the WWW forums. So what if there are no pictures here? It is simple enough to
provide a link to a site for pictures and movies, and equally simple to
follow those links. Also, as others have said, traffic will likely pick up as
the winter comes on.

my 2 cents' worth.

tom koehler


--
I will find a way or make one.

In article . net,
tom koehler wrote:

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:15:47 -0500, Fred Holder wrote
(in message
):

For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

Others have already addressed this issue, in this thread, so I am simply
reiterating, I guess.

ISPs are dropping usenet groups for one reason or another. Many Internet
users do not know of the existence of usenet or do not know how to "get on"
usenet. Some readers here maybe get what they came for, and then left.

Tom, part of the reason is that a couple politicians decided that all
Usenet was home to child porn types, after a couple of the low usage
groups were taken over by them. Sad, sick, but true. So these "right
thinking" people have been trying to kill all Usenet.

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

In article ,
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:

Fred Holder wrote:
For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net
Fred -

Hope this gets out and to you - So many of the ISP's are killing
usenet. This is from scare and threats from RIAA.

There were or are audio and video groups that were claimed (guess they were)
posting copyrighted information.

Shamefully the ISP's killed the servers themselves and RIAA etc. ignored
the East and West coast farms that all ISP's draw from should have deleted the
groups. And only an ISP can create a group through requesting it through a
farm.

Actually, no most of what you have posted is wrong, including how
Usenet is propagated and how newsgroups are created (I've lead the
effort to create four, and ran the poll, almost 15 years ago that
decided not to split rec.woodworking, so yes I do sorta know what I am
talking about)

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

In article
,
Fred Holder wrote:

For many years, I have read and posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
newsgroup, but in the last year it seems to be dying or people are
being run off by the off topic posts selling some unrelated item or
promoting something not related to woodturning.

I am reading it through Google, so it could be this is the problem. It
was only a year or so ago that my old source went away.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

I think it's a combination of things, but I have seen the volume of
posing to all usenet groups I read drop over the last couple years.
Sigh...

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

There is a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TurningAndTalking/.

The posts do not seem to have any of the unrelated items like this
group does. I cannot tell you yet if that group (site not people) it
is better than this one or not. It does allow pictures but you need
to learn how to navigate to find what you want. The experts who post
on this group have been a valuable source of information when I get
stuck. I have not read the other group enough yet to have an opinion
on the value of its content.

Anybody else have any thoughts? Some people have mentioned merging
which is why I bring it up. If all of the experts on this group
migrated to the Yahoo one it might be more useful than this group
(again I mean site not the people here who are great resources).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TurningAndTalking/

This is a Yahoo group without the strange posts on topics unrelated to
woodturning. I don't know if any of the experts in this group post
there. It does allow pictures. Somebody mentioned merging. I would
hate to lose all of the expertise found in posts here so I am
wondering if migrating is something people should talk about. The
question then might be where the promised land really is. Maybe the
sexy spam is just something we live with but it makes it harder to
separate the signal from the noise. .

I'd like to give an alternative possibility.

I have been regularly monitoring and occasionally posting to this
newsgroup for about 7 years. I have learned a lot from all of you
during that time. But now I am more confident and fairly competent in
my turning than I was 7 years ago. I have a lot less questions and
spend more time turning.

I wonder if one of the reasons that their is less activity is because
more and more of us turners that lurk in the shadows are better
turners than we were and we don't always need as much help. If their
is no new blood joining this group that needs help then all we can do
is talk to each other. Instead we are busy turning (or doing other
somewhat important tasks).

It may be that we need to recruit. I think that this group does much
better when their are a lot of questions being asked. If their is no
one asking questions then the group slowly dies off or at least it
becomes a lot less active.

Just a thought.
Ted

Personally, I agree with just about everything posted. There are a
bevy or reasons that many forums are slow now, and I think the posts
here hit the highlights.

But I think too, there is a trickle down effect from other forums and
postings. On one of the other forums I frequent, I find myself going
there less and less. The woodworking NG has become a personal blog
for many, posting almost daily their political views. The political
postings far outweigh anything to do with woodworking, and with so
many participating, I feel like the odd man out.

I feel like politics is a normal part of everyday discourse, but those
guys are nasty to each other, profane at times, and are small minded
enough to think they are complete experts based on what they read in
the press. Old friends are now enemies, and posts that should be
lively topics such as those concerning woodworking, get weak and
uninspired responses. ANY post over there can be turned into a
political thread. And it is clear, it is "us against them".

It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and I think it crosses over to the
other venues. That means less participation all around.

That being said, I think even the moderated forums have slowed, as can
be see by the traffic at some of the other forums I like. I know Wood
Central is noticeably slower, but then again, that has always been a
pretty close and closed group. Lumberjocks seems to be doing quite
well, but doesn't have anything specific about woodturning, so for the
enthusiast, there isn't anything much there to see.

I think another point that was mentioned that is quite applicable to
woodturning itself is the lack of interest in getting younger folks
involved. I was talking with an AAW demonstrator years ago, and we
were talking about the average age of woodturners. He told me that at
that time AAW estimated the average age of its members to be 67. That
certainly was in line with our club membership.

Now our club is older, and it has been dying for the last 3 - 4
years. I always told them that if they didn't (and I have offered
help, demonstrated, etc. as my part of this) try to recruit some
younger folks it would die quickly. The older guys don't give a whit
about attracting the younger guys, and after turning for a couple of
years feel like they have pretty well mastered the turning game.

Even the older guys have lost interest in woodturning as they don't
feel challenged, and they don't feel like participating in the
President's monthly challenge. We have months that NO ONE, not even
our retired president makes the challenge project.

When you come to the meetings now, it is sad. At our zenith we had a
great mix of young and old, and even a couple of women. Our monthly
meeting was about 50 - 60 people. Now, we are literally at about 10
in attendance if we are lucky.

The wonder of the internet is that you can contact just about anyone,
anywhere that wants to be contacted. I have corresponded with others
on both coasts and in Canada, and it seems this is a problem all of
woodturning is facing. There simply isn't a farming system, a welcome
mat, or even a desire to bring young turners into the fold.

I look at club photos, symposium photos, demonstration photos, etc.
all the time, and it is difficult to find anyone under the age of 65
in the photo. If there is, it is usually the demonstrator.

I don't know where woodturning is going, but I am thinking that it
will be its own undoing as far as enthusiasm goes. 25 year old guys
don't want to sit in a room full of 70 year old guys that have
absolutely no interest in what they are doing. In our club, an new
lathe owner will come to the monthly meeting exactly once.
We offer a year's paid membership to anyone that buys a lathe at WC,
and younger folks just won't come back.

I know I am almost at the end of my one year commitment to the club
president to help get things back on track, and sadly we are failing
miserably.

On the bright side of things here though, I think there are too many
lurkers and not enough posters. I have noticed that when a sincere
question is posted, many jump to answer, and I personally think that
is great. I am not sure why some are reluctant to post, but I always
encourage anyone to post anything they feel like, questions or
answers, of just MUSINGS (come on Arch... where did you go?) for us
all.

I hope things pick up around here, but I have a feeling it will take
colder weather, the end of the elections (probably add a month or two
to that to let the whining die down) and maybe even for the holidays
to end. Then it may get back to normal.

Hope so.

Robert

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:35:44 GMT, Ralph wrote:

Mac, are you a member of WOW. You should be. It's a great resource.

I used to be, Ralph...
Just too many sites and not enough time...



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:29:09 -0500, "Marty G" wrote:

Have just started trying to do some natural edge oblong bowls all small, this is
something I would not of tried on my own but with help form the groups I
gave it a shot and they didn't come out to bad, but sanding in thin air is a
very delitate touch or a big ouch.

Marty... Power sanding is the way to go for winged bowls, IMO..
I use very thick, very soft interface pads and try to maintain an angle on the
disk, so that the edge of the wing never hits the top edge of the sanding disk..
DAMHIKT

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/st...ing_pads?Args=
wow.. that's too long!
try this one:
http://tinyurl.com/5zby3n


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In message
,
" writes
But I think too, there is a trickle down effect from other forums and
postings. On one of the other forums I frequent, I find myself going
there less and less. The woodworking NG has become a personal blog
for many, posting almost daily their political views. The political
postings far outweigh anything to do with woodworking, and with so
many participating, I feel like the odd man out.

I must say many newsgroups have charters, and if a person posts in
contravention to the charter, you can contact their ISP, and in many
cases in the past they would warn/delete the persons account, as often
the action is also in breach of the AUP


I think another point that was mentioned that is quite applicable to
woodturning itself is the lack of interest in getting younger folks
involved. I was talking with an AAW demonstrator years ago, and we
were talking about the average age of woodturners. He told me that at
that time AAW estimated the average age of its members to be 67. That
certainly was in line with our club membership.

One problem that society has grow to is that many in the older
generation expect respect, and treat youngsters in a condescending
manner. Respect is earned, not a right. And both parties, young and old
have something to contribute to a hobby, Youngsters can often question
practices, which prompt new ideas, the more experienced then develop the
idea, and teach the youngsters. Its a team effort, continual learning. I
am only 45 , but I have taught skills to others, and take a pride in
when they understand, but more than that I also understand that one
teaching method is not suited to all, so change my approach until the
person I am teaching 'gets it'

On here I do not know the age range. But I do know that I have never
seen the condescending behaviour, that often occurs in clubs


When you come to the meetings now, it is sad. At our zenith we had a
great mix of young and old, and even a couple of women. Our monthly
meeting was about 50 - 60 people. Now, we are literally at about 10
in attendance if we are lucky.
I used to belong to a vintage motorcycle club, we started with 30, we
packed up when at a meeting we could not produce 1 motorcycle, and the
local vintage tractor club out did us with 3 Initial enthusiasm is
great, but often other commitments have not been factored into the
available time.


I don't know where woodturning is going, but I am thinking that it
will be its own undoing as far as enthusiasm goes. 25 year old guys
don't want to sit in a room full of 70 year old guys that have
absolutely no interest in what they are doing. In our club, an new
lathe owner will come to the monthly meeting exactly once.

Sometimes its down to them feeling intimidated by existing member's, and
what they create. Maybe is some of these "so-called experts" were to
bring along some of their disasters, these new members would realises
even the best have problems, but on top of this a failure can be an
excellent talking point as to why it happened and how it may have been
prevented


We offer a year's paid membership to anyone that buys a lathe at WC,
and younger folks just won't come back.

I know I am almost at the end of my one year commitment to the club
president to help get things back on track, and sadly we are failing
miserably.

Have the members been surveyed? Not as to what they want, but more to
what they think new members would like to see? And what they think
should be done to keep the club going and possibly increase membership?

I was once the Secretary of a HAM Radio Club, and I tabled a motion at
the AGM that required members to become members of the organisation
whose premises we used for FREE, and that subsidised alcoholic
beverages. The fee was a whole 4GBP ($8) a year ! They voted it down,
even though our constitution 'Required' that memberships should be taken
up if they were available. As you can imagine, the Chairman, myself and
treasure all stood down. Sometimes long-standing members have a
disproportionate influence on the rest of the membership




On the bright side of things here though, I think there are too many
lurkers and not enough posters. I have noticed that when a sincere
question is posted, many jump to answer, and I personally think that
is great. I am not sure why some are reluctant to post, but I always
encourage anyone to post anything they feel like, questions or
answers, of just MUSINGS (come on Arch... where did you go?) for us
all.

Arch's musings do make you think, and are a treat.

I must admit when I started turning 1 year ago, and joined the forum, I
had many questions answered as I filled in the gaps of what I needed to
know, but now its a case of putting the time into practice, when I
actually achieve something , I will get some images up of what a
beginner can do with practice.

For the last 9 months though my time has been spent on accumulation of
wood, preparing it for long term drying or for use. Part turning bowls,
accumulating tools etc. Squeezing all my tools into the workshop, and
getting me in there too

The big question is when does interest become hobby, become obsession,
become disease

--
John

After reading nailshooters well defined comments, I just had to chime in....

I have been reading this group, almost exclusively as a lurker, for 3 years
now. I have gone from someone that never had even see a lathe, to someone
that is at least comfortable with their current level of expertise, all
because of this group. From the comments posted here, to the links to other
websites, and to the occasional personal emails (Thanks Darrel), this news
group has helped me immensely in creating the addiction of turning.

So, to those of you that may think your comments are falling into
cyberspace - rest assured there are likely many like me that "lurk and
learn"!

As to the age comments, I suspect thats true, but again, not in all cases -
45 for me, and a happy recent owner of the Delta X5 lathe, replacing a
Craftsmen Sears model, replacing a BusyBee model.

For those of you still reading, here is link to my personal website, not
meant as a commercial venture, only a place to show the good and the bad
over the last 3 years to friends.
http://www.backspacecomputer.com/solid.html
Hopefully some other lurkers will come out of the bowl to keep this group
alive!

In message , xcaper
writes
rs model, replacing a BusyBee model.

For those of you still reading, here is link to my personal website,
not meant as a commercial venture, only a place to show the good and
the bad over the last 3 years to friends.
http://www.backspacecomputer.com/solid.html
Hopefully some other lurkers will come out of the bowl to keep this
group alive!

Some really nice pieces there, though when you click on the image an
enlargement would be nice, especially on the Burl
--
John

" wrote in news:6361fc0f-
:

Personally, I agree with just about everything posted. There are a
bevy or reasons that many forums are slow now, and I think the posts
here hit the highlights.

But I think too, there is a trickle down effect from other forums and
postings. On one of the other forums I frequent, I find myself going
there less and less. The woodworking NG has become a personal blog
for many, posting almost daily their political views. The political
postings far outweigh anything to do with woodworking, and with so
many participating, I feel like the odd man out.

I feel like politics is a normal part of everyday discourse, but those
guys are nasty to each other, profane at times, and are small minded
enough to think they are complete experts based on what they read in
the press. Old friends are now enemies, and posts that should be
lively topics such as those concerning woodworking, get weak and
uninspired responses. ANY post over there can be turned into a
political thread. And it is clear, it is "us against them".

Hi Robert,
I really enjoyed the woodworking group. I learned far more than I
contributed. Almost everytime I had an answer or a suggestion, three
others had beaten me to it. I didn't want to be the fourth or fifth to
give the same response, but it made me feel good that I could have.
The political stuff etc. was not something I expected from that
newsgroup. I have strong feelings about some of the things mentioned in
that group and just couldn't keep my mouth shut (knowing the newsgroup
wasn't the forum for that discussion). I got away from wood and made an
ass of myself. A gentleman should remain a gentleman regardless of the
circumstance. I wasn't. Until I can be, I will not read nor participate
in that group.
Back to this group. I am mostly a lurker. I have far more questions than
answers. It's like when my wife gets us lost because she won't ask
directions. I've tried to list my questions, but she just won't ask them.
I've learned a lot from this group and hope it continues long enough for
me to say "like Robert, Darell, Leo and Mac say, I think".

I don't know where woodturning is going, but I am thinking that it
will be its own undoing as far as enthusiasm goes. 25 year old guys
don't want to sit in a room full of 70 year old guys that have
absolutely no interest in what they are doing. In our club, an new
lathe owner will come to the monthly meeting exactly once.
We offer a year's paid membership to anyone that buys a lathe at WC,
and younger folks just won't come back.
I'm not seventy, but sixty-seven is close. I'm old enough to realize how
much I don't know (being sixty-seven means that I'm the average of
woodturners? I hate being average).

On the bright side of things here though, I think there are too many
lurkers and not enough posters. I have noticed that when a sincere
question is posted, many jump to answer, and I personally think that
is great. I am not sure why some are reluctant to post, but I always
encourage anyone to post anything they feel like, questions or
answers, of just MUSINGS (come on Arch... where did you go?) for us
all.

Yeah Arch, I miss your musings too.

I hope things pick up around here, but I have a feeling it will take
colder weather, the end of the elections (probably add a month or two
to that to let the whining die down) and maybe even for the holidays
to end. Then it may get back to normal.
Don't know about the elections, but cold weather is setting in. We just
got eighteen inches of snow between yesterday and this morning. WE were
only out of power for twenty-four hours. I live in the Catskillsd of NY.
The good news is I have a lot of black birch, hemlock and hard maple to
turn.
Regards,
Hank

snip

I don't know where woodturning is going, but I am thinking that it
will be its own undoing as far as enthusiasm goes. 25 year old guys
don't want to sit in a room full of 70 year old guys that have
absolutely no interest in what they are doing. In our club, an new
lathe owner will come to the monthly meeting exactly once.
We offer a year's paid membership to anyone that buys a lathe at WC,
and younger folks just won't come back.
I'm not seventy, but sixty-seven is close. I'm old enough to realize how
much I don't know (being sixty-seven means that I'm the average of
woodturners? I hate being average).


there is no reason that 20 and 70 can't mix just fine, what it takes is the
"old guys" being interested in the young guys and visa versa - if it is a
clique and not a club, then the effect mentioned will happen - if the club
makes an effort to welcome a new lathe owner - "hey welcome - how can we
help you? - this guy teaches boxes, this guy teaches bowles, we have a
sharpening workshop coming up in 2 months, and oh, that thing you showed is
really great - how long have you been turning - you are doing great" - good
chance you'll see them next meeting.

On Oct 29, 10:09*pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:

there is no reason that 20 and 70 can't mix just fine, what it takes is the
"old guys" being interested in the young guys and visa versa - if it is a
clique and not a club, then the effect mentioned will happen

I agree completely. And this is what we have. The older guys (that
have been turning for all of 3-5 years now) think of themselves as the
old craftsmen.

The wide eyed 20 somethings go in there and hope for some tips,
instruction, and some helpful commentary on their work, and there is
little.

Our older fellas can't understand why anyone would want to turn much
more than a bowl, cigar ash tray, a gavel, and of course Christmas
ornaments. If they don't like what you have done, they pride
themselves in the "if you don't want to know, don't ask me" approach.
It matters little that the new guy may be thinking way out of the box,
or simply trying something new.

All of the older guys want folks to turn exactly like they do, and not
get too far away from the way turning was done on the old treadle
lathes.

I have preached about teaching the younger (and older) guys more about
the craft and how to have fun than anyone in our club. It is like
moving a 20 ton boulder up a hill with dental floss.

A way out there, exciting project might be a baby rattle. This could
be for an upcoming family addition, and the interest usually goes to
how many grandkids each of them have, some great grandkids, and how
much fun they are.

I honestly think most of these guys come to the meeting because the
don't have anything else to do, and it makes them feel like they are
doing something.

In the past we have had some truly talented (maybe gifted) turners
that were part of this organization. No longer so. Some just got
tired of the constant competition of who spent the most money on
tools, who had the most expensive lathe, etc. Sadly, a couple of the
good guys have died of old age, and a couple of others are now
incapable of turning due to loss of sight, arthritis, or shaking
hands.

In the competitive atmosphere of who turns the best bowl on the most
expensive lathe, they no longer feel welcome, even though they would
be the best of teachers. I would love to see them come back as
mentors, teachers, or just because they are great guys. But so far,
no luck.

No club will survive unless it has new members, and the old farts in
our club just aren't concerned about the welfare of the club at all.
At 52, I am the youngest guy there, and unless one other guy comes in
(he makes a meeting or two a year) I am always the youngest.
When I am not there, the average age is probably right at retirement
age.

Someway, they feel like they have "paid their dues" on the road of
life, and that allows them to act as they want with little regard for
others.

I don't have any answers, but I have tried through demonstrations,
staying after the meetings for one on one questions, coming up with
turning challenges, and being a rah-rah kind of guy for any new that
brings ANYTHING they turn. Anything at all. But I can't move that
rock by myself. And the old guys say, "well that's fine. Let Robert
do it. He has the time and energy to put into it. I know myself if I
had known I would be this busy when I retire I never would have done
it. I am busier now than when I had a job".

This is usually followed by a nod of several approving heads, all
affirming the reason they don't participate.

It is sad for me, because I have watched and tried to help this club
grow. I was one of the first members back in '97, and it went from 5
to an all time high of about 80. I learned a lot, had a ton of fun,
and we were really encouraging to each other and anyone that came
along. It was fun. No longer so.

I doubt our club will actually go much farther. How sad, too. San
Antonio, Texas is a city of 1.3 million with its included metropolitan
areas and incorporated cities within itself. You would think we could
stir up 20 - 25 good guys that really love turning, but apparently
not.

Robert











- if the club
makes an effort to welcome a new lathe owner - "hey welcome - how can we
help you? - this guy teaches boxes, this guy teaches bowles, we have a
sharpening workshop coming up in 2 months, and oh, that thing you showed is
really great - how long have you been turning - you are doing great" - good
chance you'll see them next meeting.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:10:13 -0700, wrote:

Our older fellas can't understand why anyone would want to turn much
more than a bowl, cigar ash tray, a gavel, and of course Christmas
ornaments. If they don't like what you have done, they pride
themselves in the "if you don't want to know, don't ask me" approach.
It matters little that the new guy may be thinking way out of the box,
or simply trying something new.

That's a shame. So far it hasn't happened to the club here in Spokane.
We usually get 30-50 members per meeting. There's a show and tell table
and some of the really good turners will critique a piece if asked.
There's a demonstration of how to do something. Last month it was
segmented bowls. Finally there's a wood raffle. We have an annual tool
swap/flea market, a picnic, and a Xmas party. Of course there's some
differences of opinion, there always are in any group. But so far they've
stayed polite. The clubs new website is:

http://www.inwwoodturners.com/

Note the page on mentoring.

On Oct 30, 5:38*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

*Of course there's some
differences of opinion, there always are in any group. *But so far they've
stayed polite. *

To me, that's how we grow as craftsmen and how we learn better ways to
do things. Often times, inspiration come from some lively and
spirited disagreement.

The clubs new website is:

http://www.inwwoodturners.com/

Very impressive. And kudos to you and your members for taking that
kind of time and effort to make the club folks want to be a part of.
I know you guys have to work to keep it at that level of quality, but
you are lucky to have a group that has the interest to do it.

Can you see the green eyed monster from there?

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Oct 29, 10:09 pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:

there is no reason that 20 and 70 can't mix just fine, what it takes is
the
"old guys" being interested in the young guys and visa versa - if it is a
clique and not a club, then the effect mentioned will happen

I agree completely. And this is what we have. The older guys (that
have been turning for all of 3-5 years now) think of themselves as the
old craftsmen.

The wide eyed 20 somethings go in there and hope for some tips,
instruction, and some helpful commentary on their work, and there is
little.

Our older fellas can't understand why anyone would want to turn much
more than a bowl, cigar ash tray, a gavel, and of course Christmas
ornaments. If they don't like what you have done, they pride
themselves in the "if you don't want to know, don't ask me" approach.
It matters little that the new guy may be thinking way out of the box,
or simply trying something new.

-----------------------------giant snip-----------------

if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion - if you can find 3 or four like
minded people, start your own club - don't compete with the old one, claim
"geographic distance" or some other excuse. make it a welcoming place. set
the attitude for the new club - have your meetings start somewhere that
would make the "old" club guys uncomfortable - and for a while, choose
challenges that will make them uncomfortable - start in your garage if you
have to. Throw your energy into that which you enjoy. Make "way out"
challenges - such as "articulated turnings", "most ephemeral", even
political topics "electoral college segmented bowl" or maybe holiday with
attitude "day after christmas ornament", boxing day redeux, best turning
made entirely of matza, and so on. approach local art fairs and suggest
that if the fair supplies free space, the club will set up and demonstrate -
that will attract new members. Go to the riverwalk and have the "ritual
throwing of the bad turnings into the river" event, or buy beer for "most
bizarre" --- you get the idea.

Wow!!

Maybe it is just reading the newsgroup via Google is why it looks so
dead. I thought my post never even made it to the newsgroup. What a
bunch of discussion it triggered. Maybe I have to come up with another
way to access the newsgroup. I just found this list of discussions on
Google showing a new bunch of postings.

I had backed off from posting for awhile because there was a fellow on
the group that was attacking me on nearly every post, even e-mailing
me with nasty messages.

I've been reading the newsgroup pretty much since it started and have
been posting to it for over 10 years. Apparently, it is not dead at
all only the way in which I'm getting the messages.

Thanks all.

Fred Holder
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Oct 28, 4:53*am, Ted wrote:
I'd like to give an alternative possibility.

I have been regularly monitoring and occasionally posting to this
newsgroup for about 7 years. *I have learned a lot from all of you
during that time. *But now I am more confident and fairly competent in
my turning than I was 7 years ago. *I have a lot less questions and
spend more time turning.

I wonder if one of the reasons that their is less activity is because
more and more of us turners that lurk in the shadows are better
turners than we were and we don't always need as much help. *If their
is no new blood joining this group that needs help then all we can do
is talk to each other. *Instead we are busy turning (or doing other
somewhat important tasks).

It may be that we need to recruit. *I think that this group does much
better when their are a lot of questions being asked. *If their is no
one asking questions then the group slowly dies off or at least it
becomes a lot less active.

Just a thought.
Ted

"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
Wow!!

Maybe it is just reading the newsgroup via Google is why it looks so
dead. I thought my post never even made it to the newsgroup. What a
bunch of discussion it triggered. Maybe I have to come up with another
way to access the newsgroup.

Hi Fred,

Try motzarella.org - FREE news server.