Hi Folks

I was hoping someone could help me out with a problem that I'm having
with the Tim Skilton Premium Sanding Pads that are available at Lee
Valley.
I use the new wave sanding discs to finish my turnings. I can actually
wear out the sandpaper with no problems on the lathe
When I try to use this set up to sand my larger carvings and
sculptures the sanding discs tend to loose their grip on the velcro
sanding pad and come off. A sanding disc may last from 1min to 5min at
the best.
Once the sanding dics comes off that's it, it will not grip again. I
thought it might be the wood dust building since it doesn't get thrown
off as it does on the lathe. I used the shop vac but it still happens.
I have tried new velcro, different sanding pads , even cut out a disc
from my RO disc sandpaper but the problem still happens. This has
being going on for over a year so I don't think it could be a bad lot
of materials.
There is a lot more stress being put on the discs while sanding on the
lathe than there is on the carving.
The only thing I can see being the problem is the velcro is made in a
way that it needs both the disc and the work to rotate.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Peter

I contacted Lee Valley about this and all they can do is offer and
exchange or refund

burly pete wrote:
Hi Folks

I was hoping someone could help me out with a problem that I'm having
with the Tim Skilton Premium Sanding Pads that are available at Lee
Valley.
I use the new wave sanding discs to finish my turnings. I can actually
wear out the sandpaper with no problems on the lathe
When I try to use this set up to sand my larger carvings and
sculptures the sanding discs tend to loose their grip on the velcro
sanding pad and come off. A sanding disc may last from 1min to 5min at
the best.
Once the sanding dics comes off that's it, it will not grip again. I
thought it might be the wood dust building since it doesn't get thrown
off as it does on the lathe. I used the shop vac but it still happens.
I have tried new velcro, different sanding pads , even cut out a disc
from my RO disc sandpaper but the problem still happens. This has
being going on for over a year so I don't think it could be a bad lot
of materials.
There is a lot more stress being put on the discs while sanding on the
lathe than there is on the carving.
The only thing I can see being the problem is the velcro is made in a
way that it needs both the disc and the work to rotate.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Peter

I contacted Lee Valley about this and all they can do is offer and
exchange or refund

I had a batch of New wave discs like that a couple of years back. Had
to be careful, because if you don't see the disc fly off you ruin the
pad in a few seconds. I think their velcro was not nappy enough on
those. Is that a bad word?

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

I hate laundry month.

"Gerald Ross" wrote in message
...

I had a batch of New wave discs like that a couple of years back. Had to
be careful, because if you don't see the disc fly off you ruin the pad in
a few seconds. I think their velcro was not nappy enough on those. Is that
a bad word?


Only if you're Imus.

Pete, try some of the Power-Lock type disks that don't rely on velcro to
hold the cloth to the pad and glue to hold the cloth to the paper. They are
extremely aggressive and long-lasting, so I would recommend the fully-backed
only when sanding with the lathe on, though the flex edge can be used lathe
off. I had the same problem with the gold-color velcros from Packard,
though the green ones are excellent.

I tried some wave discs some years back and didn't think much about
them. I gather that you are power sanding. If they hold when you are
sanding turning, then they should hold when you sand your sculptures.
Not all pads and discs are compatable. The only thing I can think of
is if you are sanding at a higher speed on your sculptures, than you
are on your turnings. Higher rpms means more heat, and this can cause
the disc backing and the hook backing to come off. I started sanding
at lower speeds (I have a 1/4 inch piece of cork under the trigger on
my drill, so speed is at 600 or so) and found I get a bit longer life
from my discs. Also, there is no noticable time increase in completing
the project. The heat can also melt the hooks on some pads. If the
disc comes off and you keep sanding, the hooks are ruined. Had one
batch of 150 grit discs where the backing came off almost every disc.
Eventually the hooks will wear out and you need a new pad. I do put
pads on the mandril as it is cheaper to replace the pads than it is to
replace the mandril. If you are using firm pads, they will generate
more heat than the softer ones, but make 120 grit cut like 80. My
favorite discs come from VincesWoodNWonders. Blue discs on a plastic
film. They are cut over sized (3 3/8 inch), and are slightly over 20
cents a piece, but you have to buy 50 of each grit at a time. They
last longer than any others I have used. I haven't tried the 3M purple
sanding discs that Mike Mahoney uses, but he says they are the best,
and he goes through about $200 worth of abrasives a month. They are
psa only, no hook and loop. I have some of the micro mesh and the
green ceramic ones to try out next week to see how they compare. The
Power lock discs are about 70 cents per disc, and I am too cheap for
that. I have used a similar red aluminum oxide disc, and it was okay,
but not great.
robo hippy

On Mar 2, 12:56*pm, "George" wrote:
"Gerald Ross" wrote in message

...



I had a batch of New wave discs like that a couple of years back. Had to
be careful, because if you don't see the disc fly off you ruin the pad in
a few seconds. I think their velcro was not nappy enough on those. Is that
a bad word?

Only if you're Imus.

Pete, try some of the Power-Lock type disks that don't rely on velcro to
hold the cloth to the pad and glue to hold the cloth to the paper. *They are
extremely aggressive and long-lasting, so I would recommend the fully-backed
only when sanding with the lathe on, though the flex edge can be used lathe
off. *I had the same problem with the gold-color velcros from Packard,
though the green ones are excellent.

"robo hippy" wrote in message
...
I tried some wave discs some years back and didn't think much about
them. I gather that you are power sanding. If they hold when you are
sanding turning, then they should hold when you sand your sculptures.
Not all pads and discs are compatable. The only thing I can think of
is if you are sanding at a higher speed on your sculptures, than you
are on your turnings. Higher rpms means more heat, and this can cause
the disc backing and the hook backing to come off.

No. Speed is not a player. Pressure makes heat. On odd contours there is
a tendency to press harder, and at odd angles, should they be involved,
there is no choice but to press to steady on the work, rather than the
toolrest as is possible on the lathe.

I sand my carvings with the flex edge where there's work to be done. Since
the disk is on a flexible shaft, I don't have the weight of a drill motor or
a clumsy grip to contend with. Allows a much lighter touch which preserves
contour and paper. Where it's merely cleanup of oil from my grubby hands as
I steadied while carving, I use the small flap disks or mops from Klingspor
on the same flex shaft. They don't ruin contour. On very large or very
small surfaces, I mount the sander on my JET buffer/sander and move the
piece.

Though I sand at 1725 shaft speed, I have carver friends that use 5K and
above on their expensive flex tools as successfully. Make sure the
sandpaper's rated for it!

On Mar 2, 11:19 am, burly pete wrote:
Hi Folks

I was hoping someone could help me out with a problem that I'm having
with the Tim Skilton Premium Sanding Pads that are available at Lee
Valley.
I use the new wave sanding discs to finish my turnings. I can actually
wear out the sandpaper with no problems on the lathe
When I try to use this set up to sand my larger carvings and
sculptures the sanding discs tend to loose their grip on the velcro
sanding pad and come off. A sanding disc may last from 1min to 5min at
the best.
Once the sanding dics comes off that's it, it will not grip again. I
thought it might be the wood dust building since it doesn't get thrown
off as it does on the lathe. I used the shop vac but it still happens.
I have tried new velcro, different sanding pads , even cut out a disc
from my RO disc sandpaper but the problem still happens. This has
being going on for over a year so I don't think it could be a bad lot
of materials.
There is a lot more stress being put on the discs while sanding on the
lathe than there is on the carving.
The only thing I can see being the problem is the velcro is made in a
way that it needs both the disc and the work to rotate.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Peter

I contacted Lee Valley about this and all they can do is offer and
exchange or refund


Hello Pete,

I contacted Tim Skilton concerning the problem you describe. Tim tried
to get ahold of you, but could not reach you through your contact
information given in your profile. He did copy me, however, so I am
posting his reply he

"I really don't have any solution to offer in this situation.

The fact that Peter has no problem when using the Pads for their
intended use, that is power sanding, leaves me wondering why there is
a problem when used in a static situation.

I would have thought the reverse might have been an issue as I would
have thought there would be more heat generated in Power Sanding.

I would really need to see the application to offer any specific
advice.

Generaly the problem of the pad/abrasive losing grip is caused by
heat, The little hooks on the velcro tend to straighten out when
excessive heat is generated.

The other advice I can offer is to use as larger pad as possible. The
larger pad has a greater surface area to absorb heat, this translate
into longer life for the velcro.

I hope this helps.

Please let me know.

Tim Skilton"

I hope this may help you.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...


The other advice I can offer is to use as larger pad as possible. The
larger pad has a greater surface area to absorb heat, this translate
into longer life for the velcro.


I'm going to dissent here too. The greater radial velocity on edge of the
larger disk results in a greater "kick" against the tool providing the
power, and the hand holding that tool. The natural response to this
perceived loss of control is to bear down, which puts greater stress on the
velcro hold and results in greater heat.

On those occasions where I resort to coarser grits, I will only use smaller
diameter disks because the combination of greater grab and greater speed
makes them too difficult to control.

On Mar 3, 9:27*am, "George" wrote:
"Fred Holder" wrote in message

...



The other advice I can offer is to use as larger pad as possible. The
larger pad has a greater surface area to absorb heat, this translate
into longer life for the velcro.

I'm going to dissent here too. *The greater radial velocity on edge of the
larger disk results in a greater "kick" against the tool providing the
power, and the hand holding that tool. *The natural response to this
perceived loss of control is to bear down, which puts greater stress on the
velcro hold and results in greater heat.

On those occasions where I resort to coarser grits, I will only use smaller
diameter disks because the combination of greater grab and greater speed
makes them too difficult to control.

George,
I will disagree on heat factors. Heat is caused by both pressure and
speed. The same amount of pressure at two different speeds will
generate different heat factors. Identical pressures at slow and high
speeds will also yield different heat factors. At very low speeds, it
is almost impossible to generate heat except under very high pressure.
Both speed and pressure factor into how much heat is generated.
robo hippy

On Mar 3, 9:27*am, "George" wrote:
"Fred Holder" wrote in message

...



The other advice I can offer is to use as larger pad as possible. The
larger pad has a greater surface area to absorb heat, this translate
into longer life for the velcro.

I'm going to dissent here too. *The greater radial velocity on edge of the
larger disk results in a greater "kick" against the tool providing the
power, and the hand holding that tool. *The natural response to this
perceived loss of control is to bear down, which puts greater stress on the
velcro hold and results in greater heat.

On those occasions where I resort to coarser grits, I will only use smaller
diameter disks because the combination of greater grab and greater speed
makes them too difficult to control.

"robo hippy" wrote in message
...
George,
I will disagree on heat factors. Heat is caused by both pressure and
speed. The same amount of pressure at two different speeds will
generate different heat factors. Identical pressures at slow and high
speeds will also yield different heat factors. At very low speeds, it
is almost impossible to generate heat except under very high pressure.
Both speed and pressure factor into how much heat is generated.
robo hippy


You disagree with the physicists. To the extent that the coefficient of
friction may change by retaining dust under the pad, there may be slight
differences, though the greater radial velocity will have a net clearing
effect over the slower.
http://www.school-for-champions.com/...n_equation.htm

Consider the folks who use pneumatic tools operating at 15K and higher, or
the standard orbital sander which operates in the 10-15Kopm range. They
only get in trouble when they press, which increases the friction in the
standard equation as well as developing additional friction due to
deformation of the material and its holder. That's why they tell you to use
only the weight of the sander to hold it to the work.

On Mar 3, 2:22 pm, "George" wrote:
"robo hippy" wrote in message

...
George,
I will disagree on heat factors. Heat is caused by both pressure and
speed. The same amount of pressure at two different speeds will
generate different heat factors. Identical pressures at slow and high
speeds will also yield different heat factors. At very low speeds, it
is almost impossible to generate heat except under very high pressure.
Both speed and pressure factor into how much heat is generated.
robo hippy

You disagree with the physicists. To the extent that the coefficient of
friction may change by retaining dust under the pad, there may be slight
differences, though the greater radial velocity will have a net clearing
effect over the slower.http://www.school-for-champions.com/...n_equation.htm

Consider the folks who use pneumatic tools operating at 15K and higher, or
the standard orbital sander which operates in the 10-15Kopm range. They
only get in trouble when they press, which increases the friction in the
standard equation as well as developing additional friction due to
deformation of the material and its holder. That's why they tell you to use
only the weight of the sander to hold it to the work.

Hi Guys

Just wanted to add a bit more info to my original post.
To the lad who contacted Tim Skilton. Last year I had the problem
happening on the lathe also. Lee Valley sent out replacements. I
noticed the grit size stamp and package was different as if they
might have a problem. Last week it wasn't happening on the lathe only
on the carvings.
To the rest who have helped. I would have to say my lathe work
experiences quite a bit more pressure and heat since I can lean into
it. My carving was held between my knees and I could not bear down.
The pads were coming off before any heat could be generated.
Thanks again
Peter

"burly pete" wrote in message
...
To the rest who have helped. I would have to say my lathe work
experiences quite a bit more pressure and heat since I can lean into
it. My carving was held between my knees and I could not bear down.
The pads were coming off before any heat could be generated.

You weren't catching the raggedy edges, were you? That'd do a number on the
backing, and ultimately on the hooks of the velcro. Wouldn't be the first
guy to catch and throw one on a rough spot.

George,
You don't have to use sand paper to proove it, use your hand, and feel
the heat differences generated at different speeds and different
pressures.
robo hippy

On Mar 3, 1:38*pm, burly pete wrote:
On Mar 3, 2:22 pm, "George" wrote:



"robo hippy" wrote in message

...
George,
I will disagree on heat factors. Heat is caused by both pressure and
speed. The same amount of pressure at two different speeds will
generate different heat factors. Identical pressures at slow and high
speeds will also yield different heat factors. At very low speeds, it
is almost impossible to generate heat except under very high pressure.
Both speed and pressure factor into how much heat is generated.
robo hippy

You disagree with the physicists. *To the extent that the coefficient of
friction may change by retaining dust under the pad, there may be slight
differences, though the greater radial velocity will have a net clearing
effect over the slower.http://www.school-for-champions.com/...n_equation.htm

Consider the folks who use pneumatic tools operating at 15K and higher, or
the standard orbital sander which operates in the 10-15Kopm range. *They
only get in trouble when they press, which increases the friction in the
standard equation as well as developing additional friction due to
deformation of the material and its holder. *That's why they tell you to use
only the weight of the sander to hold it to the work.

Hi Guys

Just wanted to add a bit more info to my original post.
To the lad who contacted Tim Skilton. Last year I had the problem
happening on the lathe also. Lee Valley sent out replacements. I
noticed the grit size stamp *and *package was different as if they
might have a problem. Last week it wasn't happening on the lathe only
on the carvings.
To the rest who have helped. I would have to say my lathe work
experiences quite a bit more pressure and heat since I can lean into
it. My carving was held between my knees and I could not bear down.
The pads were coming off before any heat could be generated.
Thanks again
Peter

"robo hippy" wrote in message
...
George,
You don't have to use sand paper to proove it, use your hand, and feel
the heat differences generated at different speeds and different
pressures.
robo hippy

Sorry, follows the physical laws here. Must be the latitude.

Hands on is physical. Can't explain the physics of it, but try it.
robo hippy

On Mar 4, 3:06*am, "George" wrote:
"robo hippy" wrote in message

...
George,
You don't have to use sand paper to proove it, use your hand, and feel
the heat differences generated at different speeds and different
pressures.
robo hippy

Sorry, follows the physical laws here. *Must be the latitude.

Sounds like too agressive sanding to me. The Velcro hooks melt quite easily
and when that happens they're done.............Ralph

"burly pete" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks

I was hoping someone could help me out with a problem that I'm having
with the Tim Skilton Premium Sanding Pads that are available at Lee
Valley.
I use the new wave sanding discs to finish my turnings. I can actually
wear out the sandpaper with no problems on the lathe
When I try to use this set up to sand my larger carvings and
sculptures the sanding discs tend to loose their grip on the velcro
sanding pad and come off. A sanding disc may last from 1min to 5min at
the best.
Once the sanding dics comes off that's it, it will not grip again. I
thought it might be the wood dust building since it doesn't get thrown
off as it does on the lathe. I used the shop vac but it still happens.
I have tried new velcro, different sanding pads , even cut out a disc
from my RO disc sandpaper but the problem still happens. This has
being going on for over a year so I don't think it could be a bad lot
of materials.
There is a lot more stress being put on the discs while sanding on the
lathe than there is on the carving.
The only thing I can see being the problem is the velcro is made in a
way that it needs both the disc and the work to rotate.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Peter

I contacted Lee Valley about this and all they can do is offer and
exchange or refund