Richard Raffan's book 'Turning Bowls' has a small section at the back
on selling one's bowls. In the section he describes a rule of thumb
he uses to calculate how long it takes to make a bowl. His cost for
his time + current value of raw materials + something for fixed
costs = the price he sets.

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.

I recently timed how long it took to turn several oak bowls and the
time they took was two to three times the number I got multiplying
diameter times height. I started with two rough bowls aged for about
four months instead of a dry bowl blank cut from a dry slab of wood.
Needless to say my skills are not at the expert level but I got
curious how long it takes other people to make a bowl starting with a
dry rough bowl or dry slab of wood.

Has anyone used Raffan's rule of thumb ?

tww wrote in news:e0fb9a8b-881c-4d73-935b-
:

Richard Raffan's book 'Turning Bowls' has a small section at the back
on selling one's bowls. In the section he describes a rule of thumb
he uses to calculate how long it takes to make a bowl. His cost for
his time + current value of raw materials + something for fixed
costs = the price he sets.

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.

I recently timed how long it took to turn several oak bowls and the
time they took was two to three times the number I got multiplying
diameter times height. I started with two rough bowls aged for about
four months instead of a dry bowl blank cut from a dry slab of wood.
Needless to say my skills are not at the expert level but I got
curious how long it takes other people to make a bowl starting with a
dry rough bowl or dry slab of wood.

Has anyone used Raffan's rule of thumb ?


I (me) wouldn't consider using Raffan's rule of thumb until I can turn as
well and as quickly as he does. This means I will never be able to use his
rule of thumb. My rule of thumb is 'hmm, wonder how much I can get for
this'.
Hank

I agree. It basically boils down to what the market will bear. Here in
south central Kentucky, I can get $65 for a spectacular 12 inch bowl
that in, say Louisville, might fetch twice as much. Basically, I
started by naming a price on what I thought it would sell for. After I
sold a few, I managed to understand what the breaking point was and
have begun selling a few.

Another thing to remember is that there is a huge difference in
selling your bowls as a hobby versus selling you bowls to make a
living. As a hobby, I managed to squirrel away enough money to pay for
my family and I to fly to Germany in May to visit the outlaws, err
inlaws.

Good luck,
JD

"tww" wrote in message
...
Richard Raffan's book 'Turning Bowls' has a small section at the back
on selling one's bowls. In the section he describes a rule of thumb
he uses to calculate how long it takes to make a bowl. His cost for
his time + current value of raw materials + something for fixed
costs = the price he sets.

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.
SNIP
Has anyone used Raffan's rule of thumb ?

I do. Five bucks for the expendables and 25/hr is what I use for my local
market. Goes to double in the city, triple in a gallery. Probably close to
charging the same per hour as the individual in that market earns. Fair
enough.

I give the customer a break and batch my tasks, so the hours per bowl are
about two when turned green and re-turned. Nice wood is sold at a premium
even though it comes at the same cost on the woodpile, which helps offset
the smaller stuff that has to sell for less.

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:59:03 -0800 (PST), tww wrote:

Richard Raffan's book 'Turning Bowls' has a small section at the back
on selling one's bowls. In the section he describes a rule of thumb
he uses to calculate how long it takes to make a bowl. His cost for
his time + current value of raw materials + something for fixed
costs = the price he sets.

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.

I recently timed how long it took to turn several oak bowls and the
time they took was two to three times the number I got multiplying
diameter times height. I started with two rough bowls aged for about
four months instead of a dry bowl blank cut from a dry slab of wood.
Needless to say my skills are not at the expert level but I got
curious how long it takes other people to make a bowl starting with a
dry rough bowl or dry slab of wood.

Has anyone used Raffan's rule of thumb ?

Nope.. He's a highly skilled PRODUCTION turner and I'm not any of the above..
lol

My marketing leans toward "art" because folks buy art for more than they buy
bowls to eat out of.. I have what I consider outrageous prices and folks seem to
either run from sticker shock or buy feeling that they're getting "their money's
worth"..

I have lots of folks ask how long something took to turn, some to try and judge
value but most just curious..

My 2 standard answers a
61 years, if you don't count growing the tree..
or
Quite a bit longer than it took to make your plasma tv..

Also, how much time difference is there in a plain, smooth bowl and a natural
edge bowl? Maybe 2 or 3 times as long if you count sanding and changing
band-aides?
Will it sell for 2 or 3 times as much? Not in my limited experience..

I'd like to get Robohippy's views on Raffan's pricing... He does a lot of
production turning and sells a LOT of bowls..
Will it sell for


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I am more in the 'what is it worth to me' camp. A bowl that would have
taken me an hour eight years ago now takes about 5 minutes, sanding
and finishing time is extra, and at least as much time as turning
takes. I timed myself on turning a green Madrone bowl that was about 8
by 3 inches. That would amount to $24 for a bowl that I would sell for
$30 to $40. When I add in cost of getting the wood (it is never free,
you have to go get it, cut it up, store it, cut it into bowl blanks,
turn it, dry it, sand and finish it), along with the shop costs, and
business costs, the higher price is more in line. You do have to
charge what the market will bear. If you are famous, you can charge
more. I used to up my prices in the big city shows, and drop them at
home. Once on a whim, I left my prices up when I came back home, and
the bowls still sold. If I have to charge sales tax, I mark up the
prices to include tax, but on even dollar marks (I don't want to have
to carry all that change, and figure out the pennies).

As far as only doing it for a hobby, you may not care if you turn a
profit, but your work still has market value, and to sell below that
isn't fair to some one who makes a living doing it. Of course, the
overall quality may figure into it some, and when I first started
selling, my pieces weren't nearly as refined as they are now, in both
form, and finish. I always have some factory rejects that I will sell
for less.

robo hippy

On Jan 9, 2:37*am, "George" wrote:
"tww" wrote in message

...

Richard Raffan's book *'Turning Bowls' has a small section at the back
on selling one's bowls. *In the section he describes a rule of thumb
he uses to calculate how long it takes to make a bowl. *His cost for
his time + current value of raw materials + *something for fixed
costs *= the price he sets.

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to *multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. *That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.
SNIP
Has anyone used Raffan's rule of thumb ?

I do. *Five bucks for the expendables and 25/hr is what I use for my local
market. *Goes to double in the city, triple in a gallery. Probably close to
charging the same per hour as the individual in that market earns. *Fair
enough.

I give the customer a break and batch my tasks, so the hours per bowl are
about two when turned green and re-turned. *Nice wood is sold at a premium
even though it comes at the same cost on the woodpile, which helps offset
the smaller stuff that has to sell for less.

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
Also, how much time difference is there in a plain, smooth bowl and a
natural
edge bowl? Maybe 2 or 3 times as long if you count sanding and changing
band-aides?
Will it sell for 2 or 3 times as much? Not in my limited experience..

You are, of course, saying that a plain bowl takes more time than a
rough-edged bowl? Does by almost half where I live. I sell 'em a touch
cheaper, given the time.

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:50:52 GMT, "George" wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .
Also, how much time difference is there in a plain, smooth bowl and a
natural
edge bowl? Maybe 2 or 3 times as long if you count sanding and changing
band-aides?
Will it sell for 2 or 3 times as much? Not in my limited experience..

You are, of course, saying that a plain bowl takes more time than a
rough-edged bowl? Does by almost half where I live. I sell 'em a touch
cheaper, given the time.

I'm doing them wrong then, George..
I can power sand a plain bowl in no time at all..
A lot of the sanding on natural edge or knotty, barky bowls I end up doing by
hand..
I also raise the price every time a wing hits me.. lol

Same thing with pens.. A "normal" pen takes very little sanding, but add beads,
tight shapes, etc. and the sanding time goes way up..

I'm lucky here that I have no competition, so my prices can adjust out to
average longer and shorter labor times.. 2 of the same type pens, one labor
intensive and one normal, sell for $50 each... I could price them at $40 and
$60, but it's a lot easier to make each style the same price and let them
average out..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:50:52 GMT, "George" wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
. ..
Also, how much time difference is there in a plain, smooth bowl and a
natural
edge bowl? Maybe 2 or 3 times as long if you count sanding and changing
band-aides?
Will it sell for 2 or 3 times as much? Not in my limited experience..

You are, of course, saying that a plain bowl takes more time than a
rough-edged bowl? Does by almost half where I live. I sell 'em a touch
cheaper, given the time.

I'm doing them wrong then, George..
I can power sand a plain bowl in no time at all..
A lot of the sanding on natural edge or knotty, barky bowls I end up doing
by
hand..
I also raise the price every time a wing hits me.. lol


Well, as I said, they take less time here, because they're not twice-turned.
I keep my knuckles behind the rest, so I really can't charge a premium there
either.

The use of my (sorry, it's what it's called) "Mac Mop" for sanding has
really been an asset. I'm even thinking of getting a coarser one this year
to see how it does. Expensive, but they appear to be here for the long
term, and that'll allow me to split the cost over many bowls. You might
want to consider that flex shaft for sanding followed by the mop. One hand
for the wood and one hand on the handpiece makes hand sanding a thing of the
past.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:42:50 GMT, "George" wrote:


Well, as I said, they take less time here, because they're not twice-turned.
I keep my knuckles behind the rest, so I really can't charge a premium there either.

Ah.. I don't twice-turn any more, so that doesn't factor in...
Sort of unlikely that I'll find any green wood in Baja.. lol

The use of my (sorry, it's what it's called) "Mac Mop" for sanding has
really been an asset. I'm even thinking of getting a coarser one this year
to see how it does. Expensive, but they appear to be here for the long
term, and that'll allow me to split the cost over many bowls. You might
want to consider that flex shaft for sanding followed by the mop. One hand
for the wood and one hand on the handpiece makes hand sanding a thing of the
past.

I've been looking at mops and "stars" but still can't see how you'd power sand a
wing bowl.. All I do is tear sand paper or knock off bark..

BTW: by hand sanding, I meant holding the paper in a padded holder while the
lathe spins, though I do some hand or power sanding once in a while after
they're turned..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:42:50 GMT, "George" wrote:


Well, as I said, they take less time here, because they're not
twice-turned.
I keep my knuckles behind the rest, so I really can't charge a premium
there either.

Ah.. I don't twice-turn any more, so that doesn't factor in...
Sort of unlikely that I'll find any green wood in Baja.. lol

The use of my (sorry, it's what it's called) "Mac Mop" for sanding has
really been an asset. I'm even thinking of getting a coarser one this
year
to see how it does. Expensive, but they appear to be here for the long
term, and that'll allow me to split the cost over many bowls. You might
want to consider that flex shaft for sanding followed by the mop. One
hand
for the wood and one hand on the handpiece makes hand sanding a thing of
the
past.

I've been looking at mops and "stars" but still can't see how you'd power
sand a
wing bowl.. All I do is tear sand paper or knock off bark..

BTW: by hand sanding, I meant holding the paper in a padded holder while
the
lathe spins, though I do some hand or power sanding once in a while after
they're turned..


I use the flex shaft and disks for the 120 on (wet) and 220 off the lathe
when dry. Then I take the bowl to the mop on my JET buffer/sander to do the
job. The smaller "stars" are great at goblets and boxes, of course. Use
them on the flex shaft after flex edge or Kirjes sander. If you carve your
turnings, the stars can brighten that up nicely, too.

Back to the flatwork.

Go to www.turningtools.co.uk/ for a fine article by Brian Clifford. Scroll
down to Marketing Woodturning Skills and click on Pricing Woodturnery. It
covers all you should need to know and a formula similiar to Raffan's.

Good Luck
John

"tww" wrote in message
...
Richard Raffan's book 'Turning Bowls' has a small section at the back
on selling one's bowls. In the section he describes a rule of thumb
he uses to calculate how long it takes to make a bowl. His cost for
his time + current value of raw materials + something for fixed
costs = the price he sets.

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.

I recently timed how long it took to turn several oak bowls and the
time they took was two to three times the number I got multiplying
diameter times height. I started with two rough bowls aged for about
four months instead of a dry bowl blank cut from a dry slab of wood.
Needless to say my skills are not at the expert level but I got
curious how long it takes other people to make a bowl starting with a
dry rough bowl or dry slab of wood.

Has anyone used Raffan's rule of thumb ?

In article
,
tww wrote:

His rule of thumb for turning time assumes you start with seasoned
wood. The rule says to multipliy the diameter of the bowl by the
height. That number is the number of minutes it takes to make a bowl
and is used in calculating how much to charge.

I recently timed how long it took to turn several oak bowls and the
time they took was two to three times the number I got multiplying
diameter times height.

I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious NASA flaw in your
calculations... 'tisn't Australia on the metric system? Multiply your
figures by 2.54. Tahdah, 2 to 3 times longer.






--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild

Hi Owen, Sure is good to see your posts. I'd appreciate it if you
wouldn't use teaching children, earning a living and debilitating
fatigue as excuses for not turning wood and posting here more often
....and that's in imperial or metric!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious NASA flaw in your
calculations... 'tisn't Australia on the metric system? Multiply your
figures by 2.54. Tahdah, 2 to 3 times longer.

Owen:

Oh how I wish I could agree with you. It would mean I am not at the
end of the pack in how long something takes

Raffan in his book also has a metric system rule of thumb (ROT) but I
did not include it in the original post (ethnocentrism at work I
suppose). For a 3" x 10" bowl taking 30 minutes Raffan 's metric
ROT used 25.5 cm x 7.5 cm = 187.6. Then his rule of thumb when using
the metric system says divide by 6 and you get 31.25 minutes. But
like I said I like your numbers better.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 06:36:04 -0800 (PST), TWW wrote:

I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious NASA flaw in your
calculations... 'tisn't Australia on the metric system? Multiply your
figures by 2.54. Tahdah, 2 to 3 times longer.

Owen:

Oh how I wish I could agree with you. It would mean I am not at the
end of the pack in how long something takes

Raffan in his book also has a metric system rule of thumb (ROT) but I
did not include it in the original post (ethnocentrism at work I
suppose). For a 3" x 10" bowl taking 30 minutes Raffan 's metric
ROT used 25.5 cm x 7.5 cm = 187.6. Then his rule of thumb when using
the metric system says divide by 6 and you get 31.25 minutes. But
like I said I like your numbers better.

Shamelessly ripped off from other turners:


How Long Does It Take To Turn One of Those?

Do you mean…
Not plant the tree, but find the wood,
just 'see' the piece, (as if I could)?
to find a highly figured burl,
a crotch, an eye, or pearly curl?
And once I spy it, perhaps buy it,
inventory, store, and dry it?
Then saw or cut it, possibly I kiln it'
glue, imbue with fill, or drill it?
You mean, that once I'm satisfied
it's stopped the warps, checks, cracks, once dried?
And mounted on the lathe, to turn it,
Which takes much practice, just to learn it;
and then employ a gouge, or two,
or use a skew, which I don't eschew,
to mold it, shape it (what's your pleasure?)
by all means, I'm sure to measure,
then sand it smooth, please wear your mitts,
from coarse to fine, 10,000 grits,
then braze, or burnish, paint, or polish,
(the goal: enhance, and don't demolish)?
Is that your question, start to end,
how long's that path, its way to wend?
Or do you merely want to know how long it turned?
One hour, or so.

Mac Davis, Baja Woodcraft


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing