Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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TWW TWW is offline
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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.

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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

TWW wrote:
Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.

I thought that was the function of the first coat or two. ;-)


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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

On Jul 25, 12:57 pm, TWW wrote:
Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.



I think that probably everyone needs help in locating torn endgrain on
a bowl, especially that which shows up after the finish is applied.

The thing that I've found most helpful it to keep a small spray bottle
with water in it. When you think you've gotten the piece sanded
perfectly, spray a little water on the end grain portion. The water
will make the defects jump out at you and the wetted area will be
easier to sand to get rid of the torn grain.

Incidentally, torn endgrain is best fixed with a very sharp tool if
you have enough meat left in the piece to stand another pass or two.
It often takes a lot of heavy sanding to eliminate torn end grain and
you must start with something like 60 or 80 grit. I the early days of
my turning, I often used 35 or 40 grit to take care of torn grain. You
then have to go through the grits, with each new one removing the
scratches from the previous grit.

Good Luck,

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

When I have finished with the cutting and doing a reasonable sanding job I
like to moisten a shop towel or something like that with mineral spirits to
clean off the sawdust. That will do the same as spraying water and clean up
the saw dust also. You will be surprised how much it will show.

George in Georgia

"TWW" wrote in message
ups.com...
Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.



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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

Hello,

This is a very good question... :-) Here's what I do in my studio... After I
have sanded to my final grit, I lightly wipe the surface down with Odourless
Mineral Spirits (OMS), or Naphtha (N). This will show any pesky areas that
still need attention very easily and the OMS, or N will evaporate quickly.
With some species, I will wipe the piece down with distilled water to raise
the grain. This also shows any areas that still may need attention prior to
finishing.

Another thing I do before finishing is to take the piece out in the sunlight
and closely examine it... The natural sunlight is the best light for finding
defects in the surface before finishing. My studio does not have any windows
and therefore, I take what I call a "Bowl Walk" in the sunlight as one last
check before applying a finish.

As you are well aware, once you have applied a finish, it's harder to repair
an area that needs further attention, versus just resanding the bare wood.
If you are having difficulties, you may wish to add a wipe of OMS, N, or
distilled water midway through your sanding. This will show you if you're
getting a good finish before you progress into the higher grits.

I only do this wipe down inspection on my final grit now, but when I first
started twelve years ago, I did is midway through my abrasive protocol as an
added check to make sure my sanding was defect free. Take care and all the
best to you and yours!

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Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio, The Woodlands, Texas
Machinery, Tool and Product Testing for the Woodworking and Woodturning
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On 7/25/07 3:57 PM, in article
, "TWW"
wrote:

Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.




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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain


"George H Hughes" wrote in message
...
When I have finished with the cutting and doing a reasonable sanding job I
like to moisten a shop towel or something like that with mineral spirits
to clean off the sawdust. That will do the same as spraying water and
clean up the saw dust also. You will be surprised how much it will show.


Mineral spirits my choice. They lay a bit on the surface, since wood
doesn't love 'em like it does water. Since that's what the finish does,
it's a good analog. They'll show up those heel bruises better'n water does,
too.

Turners know where tearout is likely, so you don't need to soak the whole
thing, just wipe those upgrain areas.

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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

I like my bowls to have the look of a sheet of glass on them. So most
times when I finish them, I apply 2 or 3 coats of sanding sealer
sanded inbetween each, then follow with 2 or 3 coats of polyurethane.

All but the last 2 coats of poly are applied on the lathe with the
bowl still mounted.

I never have to leave my mount this way, the spray coating applies
very evenly and rarely runs because I apply it while the bowl turns on
the lathe, and letting it spin after I spray it dries it much faster
too.

But, my first coat of sealer is what I use to illuminate surface
defects.

If any exist, a just sharpened scraper and barely touching cuts clean
up the surface very well without tearing, and actually works better
than sanding because the hardened sealer makes the raised wood cut
cleaner. It only needs light sanding with fine grits afterwards and
then I apply subsequent coats of sealer and poly.

I dont hear of many people using poly. It may be a purist convention
to use other kinds of finish and no poly, but I really like how the
bowl looks with gloss poly on it when you sand thru 180 to 400 grit
paper, polish it with rouge and a wheel, then apply poly's.

jimmmy
http://handturnedbowls.biz


On Jul 25, 4:57 pm, TWW wrote:
Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.



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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

For me, I find that when I am to 400 grit on my sanding, I wipe the
bowl down with my hands, and look closely. The finer dust from the 400
grit will stand out in scratches and tearout that has been left
behind. The more I turn and sand, the more inclined I am to use a
freshly sharpened gouge for the finish cuts. Anything to reduce the
amount of sanding I do. The outside I can get almost glass smooth. The
inside is a lot harder. Sometimes the cut is beautiful and smooth, and
sometimes it is bumpy. To get the bumps out, I will shear scrape with
very light cuts. If the wood is dry and I am getting tearout, I will
use some walnut oil (Mike Mahoney's) and take a few cuts on the oiled
wood. Running your hands over the wood (with bowl turning at slow
speed, got to love the variable speed, in foreward and reverse) can
tell you a lot about your surfaces.

Having good light is also a must. I got one of the BlueMax High
Definition Lamps that are advertised in Woodturning Design. It is a
full spectrum light, and shows up all those defects that you see when
you take the bowl out into the sunlight. This makes a huge difference
in what you can see. Of course I also have to have my glasses on.

robo hippy

On Jul 26, 4:55 am, cad wrote:
I like my bowls to have the look of a sheet of glass on them. So most
times when I finish them, I apply 2 or 3 coats of sanding sealer
sanded inbetween each, then follow with 2 or 3 coats of polyurethane.

All but the last 2 coats of poly are applied on the lathe with the
bowl still mounted.

I never have to leave my mount this way, the spray coating applies
very evenly and rarely runs because I apply it while the bowl turns on
the lathe, and letting it spin after I spray it dries it much faster
too.

But, my first coat of sealer is what I use to illuminate surface
defects.

If any exist, a just sharpened scraper and barely touching cuts clean
up the surface very well without tearing, and actually works better
than sanding because the hardened sealer makes the raised wood cut
cleaner. It only needs light sanding with fine grits afterwards and
then I apply subsequent coats of sealer and poly.

I dont hear of many people using poly. It may be a purist convention
to use other kinds of finish and no poly, but I really like how the
bowl looks with gloss poly on it when you sand thru 180 to 400 grit
paper, polish it with rouge and a wheel, then apply poly's.

jimmmyhttp://handturnedbowls.biz

On Jul 25, 4:57 pm, TWW wrote:

Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.


The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.



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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:57:58 -0700, TWW wrote:

Many years ago I attended a presentation by a guy who wrote on the
psychology of computer programming. He put a picture up on the screen
and asked people to find all the defects. There was a wide range of
numbers from people in the audience but nobody found them all.

The reason I bring this up is I have a problem with noticing torn
endgrain on bowls at least until after I put some finish on when all
the defects often appear out of the blue. Do the experts in this group
use teir fingers to find defects, expert vision or some other magic
techniques? Thanks for the ideas.


I wet sand most of my stuff with natural Danish oil...
Along with "popping" the features out, it also seems to spotlight every tool
mark and tearout..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing
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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:44:08 -0700, robo hippy wrote:

Having good light is also a must. I got one of the BlueMax High
Definition Lamps that are advertised in Woodturning Design. It is a
full spectrum light, and shows up all those defects that you see when
you take the bowl out into the sunlight. This makes a huge difference
in what you can see. Of course I also have to have my glasses on.

robo hippy

For sure...
I have good natural light in the shop for a few hours each morning, and if
possible I save my sanding and oiling for those times...

I've also moved my buffing system outside, to catch the sunlight so I can check
the piece in natural light before going to the next wheel...

Years ago, I sanded and primed a truck in my garage... I thought it looked
GREAT!
Moved it out into natural light and saw all the scratch marks, bondo that looked
round under the florescent but had flat spots, etc... yuk!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


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Default 'Seeing' torn endgrain

On Jul 25, 8:06?pm, Fred Holder wrote:
On Jul 25, 12:57 pm, TWW wrote:

Incidentally, torn endgrain is best fixed with a very sharp tool if

you have enough meat left in the piece to stand another pass or two.
It often takes a lot of heavy sanding to eliminate torn end grain and
you must start with something like 60 or 80 grit. I the early days of
my turning, I often used 35 or 40 grit to take care of torn grain. You
then have to go through the grits, with each new one removing the
scratches from the previous grit.

Good Luck,

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com



Another technique that is useful to have in your bag of tricks is to
rub paste wax into the area(s) of recalcitrant grain. This presumably
makes the fibers "stand up" and cut more cleanly-either with a sharp
tool or with sandpaper. With a tear-y piece of wood, I like to use
the wax with firly coarse (80 to 120 ) grit sanding

Kip Powers
Rogers, AR

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