Hello all-

We're having a little break from the heat this weekend in my neck of
the woods, so I'm contemplating firing up the forge and making myself
a few more turning tools. (I didn't realise when I made it, but a gas
forge is a bad option when the weather turns hot when compared to a
coal one, and I haven't had the fortitude to use it much this summer!)

The psuedo-Oland type tool I've got in mind (with a toolbit inserted
into the end of a bar rather than through the side) should be easy
enough, but the hook tool raises a question or two in my mind.

The way I see it, there are two ways for me to make one of these- I
can either draw out the end of a bar, chamfer it, and then fold it
over to literally make a hook, or I can just hammer the end of some
flat stock into a circle shape, drill or punch a hole in the center,
then finish forming it by countersinking before I heat treat it.

In either case, I'll probably be sharpening with a grinding point in
the die-grinder or dremel tool, but I'm just wondering if one design
would work better than the other for some reason. The material will
be 1095 high-carbon steel (also known as W1 tool steel) because that
is what I have, and it takes a nice sharp edge after hardening and
tempering.

I intend to just leave the remainder of the bar on the end of the hook
as the handle, so that I can reforge it when it eventually wears out.
It'll most likely be 3/8-1/2" thick, and about 3/4" in diameter, as
that would involve the least amount of hammering (1095 is tough stuff,
even when hot.)

So, if anyone has any preferences or thoughts about these two styles,
I'd appreciate a quick review! Either one will take some time and
effort to make properly, so I'd like to go with the best design I can.

Prometheus
I like to make them with inserted hooks like this
http://aroundthewoods.com/hooktool.shtml
For some using hints there are videos and stuff here
http://aroundthewoods.com/hookuse.shtml

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS
http://aroundthewoods.com
http://roundopinions.blogspot.com

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
Hello all-

We're having a little break from the heat this weekend in my neck of
the woods, so I'm contemplating firing up the forge and making myself
a few more turning tools. (I didn't realise when I made it, but a gas
forge is a bad option when the weather turns hot when compared to a
coal one, and I haven't had the fortitude to use it much this summer!)

The psuedo-Oland type tool I've got in mind (with a toolbit inserted
into the end of a bar rather than through the side) should be easy
enough, but the hook tool raises a question or two in my mind.

The way I see it, there are two ways for me to make one of these- I
can either draw out the end of a bar, chamfer it, and then fold it
over to literally make a hook, or I can just hammer the end of some
flat stock into a circle shape, drill or punch a hole in the center,
then finish forming it by countersinking before I heat treat it.

In either case, I'll probably be sharpening with a grinding point in
the die-grinder or dremel tool, but I'm just wondering if one design
would work better than the other for some reason. The material will
be 1095 high-carbon steel (also known as W1 tool steel) because that
is what I have, and it takes a nice sharp edge after hardening and
tempering.

I intend to just leave the remainder of the bar on the end of the hook
as the handle, so that I can reforge it when it eventually wears out.
It'll most likely be 3/8-1/2" thick, and about 3/4" in diameter, as
that would involve the least amount of hammering (1095 is tough stuff,
even when hot.)

So, if anyone has any preferences or thoughts about these two styles,
I'd appreciate a quick review! Either one will take some time and
effort to make properly, so I'd like to go with the best design I can.

Morning Jesse,

Another way to make 'hook tools' is to grind flat stock or tool bits
etc. to shapes that are basically hooks. I like the shape of the
'Viking' for end grain. It is robust, doesn't pack the shavings and it's
easy to grind & sharpen. Look in catalogs or Soren Berger's website for
a pic. I think it is essentially a hook tool. A grinder and a few tool
bits and you have a set up for experimenting.

Hope I'm not too far off topic. You might really just want to fire up
your forge, but be careful. Someone will accuse you of inconveniently
warming the globe.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Hi Prometheus

I don't think there is a real advantage of one over the other, in my
mind the hammer to a wedge shape, and fold to a hook ( just like
Darrell shows) is the simpler way to go, it might just be a wee bit
harder controlling the tempering of the thin edge.
And yes mind Arch's advice of heating up the earth, must have been
those Vikings making all those swords and axes when they where farming
on Greenland, as they sure didn't have any SUV's ;-))), then again
shorter winters wouldn't make me feel bad.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On Jun 30, 2:09 am, Prometheus wrote:
Hello all-

We're having a little break from the heat this weekend in my neck of
the woods, so I'm contemplating firing up the forge and making myself
a few more turning tools. (I didn't realise when I made it, but a gas
forge is a bad option when the weather turns hot when compared to a
coal one, and I haven't had the fortitude to use it much this summer!)

The psuedo-Oland type tool I've got in mind (with a toolbit inserted
into the end of a bar rather than through the side) should be easy
enough, but the hook tool raises a question or two in my mind.

The way I see it, there are two ways for me to make one of these- I
can either draw out the end of a bar, chamfer it, and then fold it
over to literally make a hook, or I can just hammer the end of some
flat stock into a circle shape, drill or punch a hole in the center,
then finish forming it by countersinking before I heat treat it.

In either case, I'll probably be sharpening with a grinding point in
the die-grinder or dremel tool, but I'm just wondering if one design
would work better than the other for some reason. The material will
be 1095 high-carbon steel (also known as W1 tool steel) because that
is what I have, and it takes a nice sharp edge after hardening and
tempering.

I intend to just leave the remainder of the bar on the end of the hook
as the handle, so that I can reforge it when it eventually wears out.
It'll most likely be 3/8-1/2" thick, and about 3/4" in diameter, as
that would involve the least amount of hammering (1095 is tough stuff,
even when hot.)

So, if anyone has any preferences or thoughts about these two styles,
I'd appreciate a quick review! Either one will take some time and
effort to make properly, so I'd like to go with the best design I can.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:35:25 -0400, (Arch) wrote:

Morning Jesse,

Another way to make 'hook tools' is to grind flat stock or tool bits
etc. to shapes that are basically hooks. I like the shape of the
'Viking' for end grain. It is robust, doesn't pack the shavings and it's
easy to grind & sharpen. Look in catalogs or Soren Berger's website for
a pic. I think it is essentially a hook tool. A grinder and a few tool
bits and you have a set up for experimenting.

Well, even though I had said "forge" when talking about the fully
round "hook" (more of an eye, really), it would seem to me that the
easiest way to do it would be grind it about 90% and then heat-treat
it with the forge. I don't know if that's "smart" or "lazy", but I
always like to go with the easiest option. Grinding a true hook shape
might be a different story, and I think I can forge that much more
easily than it can be ground.

Hope I'm not too far off topic. You might really just want to fire up
your forge, but be careful. Someone will accuse you of inconveniently
warming the globe.

No doubt, but those people tend to get nervous about confronting a big
guy with a four pound hammer in his hand, I think... At least, no one
has tried to stop me yet.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:33:11 -0700, "
wrote:

Hi Prometheus

I don't think there is a real advantage of one over the other, in my
mind the hammer to a wedge shape, and fold to a hook ( just like
Darrell shows) is the simpler way to go, it might just be a wee bit
harder controlling the tempering of the thin edge.

It'd be a little different than what Darrell shows, but that's just
because of the material I've got. Rather than using a nail to make
the hook in a couple of minutes, I've got 1" x 3/8" thick 1095, which
means it'd be about 3-4 hours of drawing out with a hand hammer. Not
that I won't do it, and it would be fairly "simple"- but it will be
extremely labour intensive!

The nice thing about that heavy bar stock is that it's not going to
want to bend with deep hollowing- something I end up fighting when I
use mild steel shanks as tool handles. I'm also thinking that the
rectangular shaft would be great for finding and maintaining the right
tool angle. I can twist the hook before hardening (it will still cut
unhardened, just won't hold an edge very long) and then there's not a
lot of fussing around with it to get the right angle- it'll just sit
flat on the toolrest. Sort of like the hollowing tool designs with a
second bar on them to keep them level, without any welding.

And yes mind Arch's advice of heating up the earth, must have been
those Vikings making all those swords and axes when they where farming
on Greenland, as they sure didn't have any SUV's ;-))), then again
shorter winters wouldn't make me feel bad.

They might not have had SUVs, but they *did* have those big ships.
Just think of all the trees they had to cut down for that... now that
would have been a fine wood scrounging opportunity for a resourceful
turner!

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Arch and Leo V.--Little sarcastic remarks about global warming may make you
feel superior, but, like it or not, this is a serious problem. I can
remember when people were joking about smoking (e.g. Mice that smoke
shouldn't drive.)--many of them are dead now of lung cancer.

Sorry if I come across as a sourpuss-heavy, but global warming is a VERY
INCONVENIENT TRUTH.

I have a friend who turns a LOT of Norwiegan ale bowls (2 or 3 a day at
the MN state fair every year, for instance)with a spring pole lathe and
he uses mostly hook tools. He is emulating 1600's and 1700's usually,
so he uses only 1095 for tools (since that's what would have been
available). He forges out the Hook on the end of a roughly 1/2" round
bar about 15 inches long and fits a handle that is another 15 to 24
inches long. He does fully harden them and temper them back to medium
straw, but they do require a fair amount of sharpening ( a quick
stoning). We full hardened one without tempering once, and it stayed
sharp a long time, until it broke when it caught one day. He
demonstrates before the public often and gives classes, too.

I'd favor forging over grinding. You only need to work the last couple
of inches of stock, so it shouldn't take more than a half dozen heats to
draw it down. Come on over and use a power hammer if you want. (If I
can ever find the forge again). I think I have a bunch of 1/2" round
1095 to save you some time.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

Prometheus wrote:

Hello all-

We're having a little break from the heat this weekend in my neck of
the woods, so I'm contemplating firing up the forge and making myself
a few more turning tools. (I didn't realise when I made it, but a gas
forge is a bad option when the weather turns hot when compared to a
coal one, and I haven't had the fortitude to use it much this summer!)

The psuedo-Oland type tool I've got in mind (with a toolbit inserted
into the end of a bar rather than through the side) should be easy
enough, but the hook tool raises a question or two in my mind.

The way I see it, there are two ways for me to make one of these- I
can either draw out the end of a bar, chamfer it, and then fold it
over to literally make a hook, or I can just hammer the end of some
flat stock into a circle shape, drill or punch a hole in the center,
then finish forming it by countersinking before I heat treat it.

In either case, I'll probably be sharpening with a grinding point in
the die-grinder or dremel tool, but I'm just wondering if one design
would work better than the other for some reason. The material will
be 1095 high-carbon steel (also known as W1 tool steel) because that
is what I have, and it takes a nice sharp edge after hardening and
tempering.

I intend to just leave the remainder of the bar on the end of the hook
as the handle, so that I can reforge it when it eventually wears out.
It'll most likely be 3/8-1/2" thick, and about 3/4" in diameter, as
that would involve the least amount of hammering (1095 is tough stuff,
even when hot.)

So, if anyone has any preferences or thoughts about these two styles,
I'd appreciate a quick review! Either one will take some time and
effort to make properly, so I'd like to go with the best design I can.

On Jun 30, 8:10 pm, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:
Arch and Leo V.--Little sarcastic remarks about global warming may make you feel superior

A harmless joke ( I a sure those two of all people are not hell bent
on destroying the globe ) has turned the discussion on hook tools into
life and death.

Sorry if I come across as a sourpuss-heavy, but global warming is a VERY INCONVENIENT TRUTH.

Jeezus... lighten up. We are absolutely beat to ****ing death with
this political football everyday. We get it. We understand. We
surrender.

For God's sake, it was a harmless comment made between friends. No
wonder group traffic is down so much. Who can even make a comment
without someone with the feelings on their sleeve attacking?

For crying out loud. Even Al Gore lives in a 22 room mansion as his
main house. He flies commercial around the world on giant carbon
belching, fuel guzzling airlines with his entourage to promote his
book and movie. He doesn't travel by ultralight or sailboat. AND HE
DOES NOT OWN A PRIUS.

Now how "inconvenient" is that?

Just think.....

woodturning group

woodturning group

woodturning group

Robert

I've made a number of hook tools using Darrell's method and I've found they
work extremely well. I've actually made some from 3" and larger concrete
nails so I could tackle larger jobs. I also made the steel handles from
larger diameter stock to allow me deep cutting without chatter. This also
works very well. I use a dremel and a conical grinding stone similar to one
used for the 'termite'. It was fun; the forging part remided me of my
highschool days!

Tom

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Morning Jesse,

Another way to make 'hook tools' is to grind flat stock or tool bits
etc. to shapes that are basically hooks. I like the shape of the
'Viking' for end grain. It is robust, doesn't pack the shavings and it's
easy to grind & sharpen. Look in catalogs or Soren Berger's website for
a pic. I think it is essentially a hook tool. A grinder and a few tool
bits and you have a set up for experimenting.

Hope I'm not too far off topic. You might really just want to fire up
your forge, but be careful. Someone will accuse you of inconveniently
warming the globe.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Leo Lichtman wrote:
Arch and Leo V.--Little sarcastic remarks about global warming may make you
feel superior, but, like it or not, this is a serious problem. I can
remember when people were joking about smoking (e.g. Mice that smoke
shouldn't drive.)--many of them are dead now of lung cancer.

Sorry if I come across as a sourpuss-heavy, but global warming is a VERY
INCONVENIENT TRUTH.


Leo, I am not an advocate of the modern day scare tactics on GLOBAL
WARMING that are being used. In my short lifespan (60+ years) I remember
spans of years that were hot and dry and other spans that were cold and
wet. Weather is cyclic and has always been so regardless of what man has
done.
Man probably will destroy himself, but don't blame it on nature. I
believe that "nature" doesn't even know that Man exists, let alone that
he is influencing the environment.
Yes, global warning "IS" a very inconvenient truth, but there is nothing
we can do about it. So - LIVE LIFE AND ENJOY!

Hi Pete
I don't know if I would call that old puddle steel 1095 or even high
carbon, I've worked and welded some of that old iron and steel, and it
was altogether other material, I remember rod welding some iron gate
from a castle, the stuff looked like bundled wire when it was melting
in the arc, not nice stuff to work with in that sense.
I also remember My Dad telling me that early in his life when he had
to forge weld pieces together, he said " you could take the iron out
of the fire and pick up the hammer from the floor and still weld it
together, but now, if you are not ready and real quick you're to
late", also steel was expensive, they would use only small pieces and
lay them in, like on a shovel or axe or other tools.

But yes I have the same experience with hardening and not tempering,
it works much better and in that it stays sharp longer, haven't broken
any yet but I do expect that to happen though, I'm willing to pay the
price.

What kind of a power hammer do you have ??
We had one with a 3 foot cast flywheel on a crank with an adjustable
rod, connected to a rocking stack of leaf springs that was moving the
hammer shaft up and down, and all that was connected to a riveted
steel plate body that was filled with concrete I think, not sure of
that anymore, it was an antique alright but worked just fine when
needed.
Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


He is emulating 1600's and 1700's usually,
so he uses only 1095 for tools (since that's what would have been
available).

Hi Other Leo

Over the millennia the earth has cycled through ice ages and hot
periods without the help of Mankind, even as close as a thousand years
ago we had a hot spell that lasted for a long time in human terms.
Also Mars has heated up in the last century, wonder who's doing it up
there ???????
So I'm not saying temperatures are not rising, just that we are not
the cause IMO, but politicians are sure to use it for their own
agendas.
Just as we have had those that are predicting the end of the world or
those that were profiting from scaring the daylight out of people when
the year 2000 was coming around, the millennium scare was used for the
same reasons.

And I'm not going to discuss this, this is my opinion, and I stand by
that, even if I am out a few years with my stated claims.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo





On Jun 30, 9:10 pm, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:
Arch and Leo V.--Little sarcastic remarks about global warming may make you
feel superior, but, like it or not, this is a serious problem. I can
remember when people were joking about smoking (e.g. Mice that smoke
shouldn't drive.)--many of them are dead now of lung cancer.

Sorry if I come across as a sourpuss-heavy, but global warming is a VERY
INCONVENIENT TRUTH.

wrote:
Hi Pete
I don't know if I would call that old puddle steel 1095 or even high
carbon, I've worked and welded some of that old iron and steel, and it
was altogether other material, ----
I think we are talking pre-puddling here for my friend's stuff. When
you make wrought iron in the old one-step process, you sometimes get
chucks of bloom that sat around the fuel (charcoal) for longer than the
rest and so became higher in carbon. The workers learned to spot those
pieces when pulling the bloom out or later when consolidating it;
separating it from the rest for use in tool edges. I'm not exactly
sure when Wootz steel or blister steel was developed, but those are some
other earlier ways of getting the carbon content up.

There's a guy in England who makes $50,000 suits of reproduction armor
who claims that, in the 1500's (his period of emulation) they could
produce 1060 reliably.

I know this is a woodturning group, but you all have to use steel and
steel alloy tools, so, FYI-----
Iron + Carbon = Steel. (Also "Steel" includes Iron plus a lot
of other alloys these days). Pure iron would have NO carbon.
Real "Wrought Iron" has (usually) less than 0.1 % carbon. Today's
"mild steel" (the stuff you'd get if you went to a steel yard and asked
for a "piece of steel for a backyard project" probably has a carbon
content of between 0.18 % and 0.30%. This is generally considered too
low a carbon content to harden.
When the carbon content gets to about 0.45%, you have a steel that
can be hardened (made brittle) by heating to a red heat and then
quenching in water or oil)---
and then reheated to a lower temperature (tempering) to get rid of
some of the brittleness.
The steel we have been talking about here is called "1095". The
"10" means it's a plain "Carbon Steel", containing iron, carbon, and
hardly anything else. The "95" means is has a carbon content of 0.95%.
That's pretty high for steel.
Just to carry this carbon thing to a conclusion, if the carbon
content goes much above 1.5% to 2 or 3 %, you get cast iron, which
can't be forged by normal processes.

What kind of a power hammer do you have ??

I have a Little Giant 50 pound hammer in my shop and seven or eight more
in a shed.

We had one with a 3 foot cast flywheel on a crank with an adjustable
rod, connected to a rocking stack of leaf springs that was moving the
hammer shaft up and down, and all that was connected to a riveted
steel plate body that was filled with concrete I think, not sure of
that anymore, it was an antique alright but worked just fine when
needed.
This one might have been called a "Helve Hammer". I assume it was
powered by some mechanical means? Was it shop-made or a commercially
available hammer? In America's history, there were dozens, if not
scores of manufacturers of steel-hammering devices. It is interesting
to see the breadth of ideas that actually made it to the field.


Pete Stanaitis

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:29:46 -0500, spaco
wrote:

I have a friend who turns a LOT of Norwiegan ale bowls (2 or 3 a day at
the MN state fair every year, for instance)with a spring pole lathe and
he uses mostly hook tools. He is emulating 1600's and 1700's usually,
so he uses only 1095 for tools (since that's what would have been
available). He forges out the Hook on the end of a roughly 1/2" round
bar about 15 inches long and fits a handle that is another 15 to 24
inches long. He does fully harden them and temper them back to medium
straw, but they do require a fair amount of sharpening ( a quick
stoning). We full hardened one without tempering once, and it stayed
sharp a long time, until it broke when it caught one day. He
demonstrates before the public often and gives classes, too.

Even though a lot of guys like the newer tool steel alloys (and I'll
admit, I do too- for hogging things out,) I actually kind of prefer
the 1095- old fashioned or not, I haven't found anything that takes a
keener edge. It just doesn't stick around as long.

I'd favor forging over grinding. You only need to work the last couple
of inches of stock, so it shouldn't take more than a half dozen heats to
draw it down. Come on over and use a power hammer if you want. (If I
can ever find the forge again). I think I have a bunch of 1/2" round
1095 to save you some time.

I might take you up on that- my wife came up with a "let's just
rearrange every single thing in the house quick" idea this weekend,
and I never got out to the forge.

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 09:49:04 -0500, spaco
wrote:



wrote:
Hi Pete
I don't know if I would call that old puddle steel 1095 or even high
carbon, I've worked and welded some of that old iron and steel, and it
was altogether other material, ----
I think we are talking pre-puddling here for my friend's stuff. When
you make wrought iron in the old one-step process, you sometimes get
chucks of bloom that sat around the fuel (charcoal) for longer than the
rest and so became higher in carbon. The workers learned to spot those
pieces when pulling the bloom out or later when consolidating it;
separating it from the rest for use in tool edges. I'm not exactly
sure when Wootz steel or blister steel was developed, but those are some
other earlier ways of getting the carbon content up.

How did that work? My understanding of the process (and it's from a
modern perspective, so the old way may not have been mentioned) was
that the first melt from the ore was used to make pig-iron ignots, the
second refining melt poured cast iron, and then it had to be "cooked"
with an oxidizing flame for quite a while when in the molten state in
the third heat to burn out the excess carbon to make steel. Though
after typing that, I can see that there must be another method, or
carbon steel would have been around long before wrought iron.

IIRC, the initial high-levels of carbon came from melting in the
cupola with coke and iron ore mixed together, and the refining heat
was done in a ladle.

There's a guy in England who makes $50,000 suits of reproduction armor
who claims that, in the 1500's (his period of emulation) they could
produce 1060 reliably.

They may have been able to, depending on how much they cared- but that
sounds a little fishy. The technology may have been there- especially
in large batches where several tons of wrought iron could have had an
easily measurable amount of carbon (maybe as coke?) added to it to get
something sort of like 1060, but I doubt that was very common at all.

It's kind of like those dark age re-enactors that claim that patching
up their armor with duct-tape is historically accurate because "they
had it back then." When I questioned a guy about that statement, he
made up some nonsense about woven reeds and mud. Might have been sort
of like tape, but it certainly wasn't modern duct tape.

Ah well, as long as they're having fun- but it would do some of those
folks good to take their rationalizations a little less seriously. I
don't hear too many turners claiming that wares turned out on a Oneway
are historically authentic because someone could have hooked a belt to
a waterwheel and had a powered drive system.

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 01:10:36 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

Arch and Leo V.--Little sarcastic remarks about global warming may make you
feel superior, but, like it or not, this is a serious problem. I can
remember when people were joking about smoking (e.g. Mice that smoke
shouldn't drive.)--many of them are dead now of lung cancer.

And some are still sitting around drinking and playing cards. Goes to
show you can never tell.

Sorry if I come across as a sourpuss-heavy, but global warming is a VERY
INCONVENIENT TRUTH.

Down boy- this isn't that sort of group, and I don't think we want to
make it that way. Typing media-hype in big block letters not only
does not make any point whatsoever, but encourages people to argue
with you.

I am 110% sure that if you mosey over to rec.woodworking with this,
they will be more than happy to mull it over with you in a 12,000 post
thread culminating with death threats and comparsions to Hitler.
While that is still not the appropriate venue for it, at least it'd be
over there, and not here. Please remember not to cross-post if you go
that route.

I thought this article was interesting:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/e...db11f4&k=29751

On Jun 29, 11:09 pm, Prometheus wrote:
Hello all-

We're having a little break from the heat this weekend in my neck of
the woods, so I'm contemplating firing up the forge and making myself
a few more turning tools.
The psuedo-Oland type tool I've got in mind (with a toolbit inserted
into the end of a bar rather than through the side) should be easy
enough, but the hook tool raises a question or two in my mind.


I have made a bunch with different materials. All of mine are made to
be inserted into the end of a very heavy wall tube (gun barrel stock,
I think) and held in place with a set screw.

I find it is easiest to get the edge and shape you want by first
hammering the steel flat (triangular cross section, really, cool
slowly, then sharpen so you essentially have a knife. (like it's
described on Darrel's site). Making the cross section a pretty wide
triangle at the bottom gives it a lot more beef for heavy cuts. Thin
cross sections are more likely to have high pitched squeals when
turning, which not only require earplugs, but are hard on the tool
(vibration----high cycle fatigue).

Then heat it up again and bend the knife into a hook. If you are not
careful to do this when it's very hot, you can crack the edge while
bending, and then you might as well toss it out and start over, as a
crack is almost impossible to fix, and the only way to cure is a full
penetration weld or grind it off completely.

Once it's bent, you can then heat, quench and temper and your edge
should only need a little more honing to make it sharp again (or if
you ground it well before bending, you might be able to use it as is
for a bit).

I have tried a few materials:
Nails work OK, but being round cross section you need to grind a flat
on one side for a set screw to hold it well. I don't prefer them, as I
mostly have galvanized nails, and have found other materials I like
more.

Old drills are nice and hard, but untwisting them takes a while , and
they're made from very hard alloy, so are harder to forge without
cracking. As another poster said, "if you're not ready, you're too
late"

I have made all the tools I still use from old allen wrenches, which
works nicely for a couple reasons: no untwisting, reasonably hard
material (but not always), easy to come by, the 90 bend allows you to
make offset tools for bent tool work up inside wide, small mouthed
vessels. I also prefer hooks with a bend for hogging out lots of
material in the bottoms of large bowls. Translating 'catches' into a
torque instead of a whole tool handle 'flip' is a lot safer,
especially when you have 30 or 40 inch dia hunk of wood spinning mere
feet from your head.

I've tried both left and right handed hooks. I mostly prefer hooks
that have a left jog, then a right hook, but since I turn in both
directions outboard, the right jog and left hook can be useful too.

Certain hooks are nice for bottom nub turning. You can see pictures
and a movie he
http://www.treecycler.org/hooks.htm

In article ,
Prometheus wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 09:49:04 -0500, spaco
wrote:



wrote:
Hi Pete
I don't know if I would call that old puddle steel 1095 or even high
carbon, I've worked and welded some of that old iron and steel, and it
was altogether other material, ----
I think we are talking pre-puddling here for my friend's stuff. When
you make wrought iron in the old one-step process, you sometimes get
chucks of bloom that sat around the fuel (charcoal) for longer than the
rest and so became higher in carbon. The workers learned to spot those
pieces when pulling the bloom out or later when consolidating it;
separating it from the rest for use in tool edges. I'm not exactly
sure when Wootz steel or blister steel was developed, but those are some
other earlier ways of getting the carbon content up.

How did that work?
Mine is the same as yours... I don't think it worked that way. Wootz is
also very old, pre 1000 AD

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Hello Pete:
You are right. The more you understand your tools the better equipped
you are to use them. I now understand this rating but how does say a
1095 relate if at all to say the A2, C2, M2 ratings you see for steel
and steel tools.

Regards
Paul Geving


On Jul 1, 10:49 am, spaco wrote:
I know this is a woodturning group, but you all have to use steel and
steel alloy tools, so, FYI-----
Iron + Carbon = Steel. (Also "Steel" includes Iron plus a lot
of other alloys these days). Pure iron would have NO carbon.
Real "Wrought Iron" has (usually) less than 0.1 % carbon. Today's
"mild steel" (the stuff you'd get if you went to a steel yard and asked
for a "piece of steel for a backyard project" probably has a carbon
content of between 0.18 % and 0.30%. This is generally considered too
low a carbon content to harden.
When the carbon content gets to about 0.45%, you have a steel that
can be hardened (made brittle) by heating to a red heat and then
quenching in water or oil)---
and then reheated to a lower temperature (tempering) to get rid of
some of the brittleness.
The steel we have been talking about here is called "1095". The
"10" means it's a plain "Carbon Steel", containing iron, carbon, and
hardly anything else. The "95" means is has a carbon content of 0.95%.
That's pretty high for steel.
Just to carry this carbon thing to a conclusion, if the carbon
content goes much above 1.5% to 2 or 3 %, you get cast iron, which
can't be forged by normal processes.

Pete Stanaitis

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 06:57:34 -0700, paulg wrote:

Hello Pete:
You are right. The more you understand your tools the better equipped
you are to use them. I now understand this rating but how does say a
1095 relate if at all to say the A2, C2, M2 ratings you see for steel
and steel tools.

My understanding is that 1095 is also known as W1. The letter in tool
steel alloys, in many cases refers to the method by which it can be
hardened. So, in the case of 1095, it would be water-hardening tool
steel, type one. With A2, it would be air-hardening tool steel type
two. O class steels are for oil hardening, S class tool steels are
shock resisting, and there are classifications for work hardening and
heat resistant tool steels which I cannot remember offhand.

In all cases, with the exception of the 1095, tool steels are steel
alloys that contain other elements to give them more desirable
properties. Generally, the alloys are crafted with three properties
in mind- Hardness, toughness, and wear-resistance. Hardness is
usually, but not always a function of a higher level of carbon in the
alloy, toughness is generally a function of chromium and molybdenum,
and (IIRC) wear resistance is usually boosted by tungsten. There are
other elements that can be added to the alloys for various other
properies as well, but you'd have to be a pretty sharp metallurgist to
know them all, and be able to figure out the effect of each minor
element on the others in combination.

It's a precise balancing act with most alloys- if you increase
hardness, toughness (the resistance to chipping or breakage) will
generally be compromised, but you'll be able to achieve a keener edge.
An increase in toughness usually comes with a decrease in hardness,
which is what you're shooting for when tempering a hardened carbon
steel tool. I honestly don't know that much about wear-resistance,
but it must affect the first two factors, or *every* tool steel would
be alloyed to make them as wear-resistant as possible.

The thing that is appealing about W1(1095), A1, and O1 tool steels, is
that it's possible to heat treat them at home with limited equipment-
that isn't to say you'll get absolutely perfect results, but they're
all pretty good materials, and you can easily make good tools with
them. With something like M2, you really need to have a precisely
controlled heat-treating oven whose temperature can be accurated
graduated in at least 25 degree increments (preferably on a timer, as
many tool steels require 24-48 hour heat treating cycles that involve
a combination of long soaks and slow step-downs in temperature.)

(Disclaimer- Any of the above may be incorrect, of course. This is
just what I've dug up on the subject out of general curiosity- I don't
have the setup to play with smelting special alloys, and have never
had the opportunity to do it, so it's more for general knowledge than
anything else- while I've machined a whole lot of tool steel in the
past, in practice, all a guy actually needs to know on the shop floor
is what the print calls for, and what feed and speed rates to use for
any given operation with that material.)

paulg wrote:
Hello Pete:
You are right. The more you understand your tools the better equipped
you are to use them. I now understand this rating but how does say a
1095 relate if at all to say the A2, C2, M2 ratings you see for steel
and steel tools.

Regards
Paul Geving


Paul, google for AISI (American Iron and Steel Institute) and for
"Machinery's Handbook". Buy the handbook -- it's well worth the
admittedly steep price of admission.

This will give you a better education on this top than a 2,000 response
thread on this wonderful newsgroup.

Prometheus did a fine job ... but he barely scratched the surface.

There is a LOT to learn here.

Bill



--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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