wrote:
On Mar 3, 2:00 pm, Brian Henderson
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 01:57:09 GMT, Lobby Dosser

wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
Then I'm not typical because the overwhelming majority of my buys
have been brand new. Then again, just about every serious
woodworker I know also bought primarily new. The cost of a pretty
decent shop is going to be in the neighborhood of $10K, if you can
find a house for that much, buy it.
Does that include the forklift?

I have yet to ever find myself needing a forklift of any size and
only once or twice thought a pallet jack might be sort of useful.
Where are you going to park the forklift when you're not using it
anyhow? Isn't that just wasted space that you could have more tools
or storage?

Access to a forklift and pallet jack would be very nice. All of the
shipping of large woodworking tools come to the freight terminal in
your city unless you ask for curbside delivery with a liftgate truck.
And that costs a hundred or so more dollars. With a forklift and
pallet jack you would not have to pay this extra shipping fee.

I can't see where the pallet jack helps unless you have a dock.

OTOH, it seems to me that a clever wooddorker might build a deck the
right height to be a dock and be careful with the gardening and problem
solved.

The house I grew up in was actually built that way--you could back an
18-wheeler up to the front porch and start unloading. Then my mother
started gardening . . .

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:38:15 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Oh they can go into a basement shop ..getting them out..now there is a
serious issue...G

Isn't that always the case?

Getting it IN is easy... G

Brian Henderson wrote:

I have yet to ever find myself needing a forklift of any size and only
once or twice thought a pallet jack might be sort of useful.

What are you welding, thimbles?
--
John L. Weatherly
Nashville, TN

please remove XXXs to reply via email

On Mar 4, 1:36 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 3, 2:00 pm, Brian Henderson
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 01:57:09 GMT, Lobby Dosser

wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
Then I'm not typical because the overwhelming majority of my buys
have been brand new. Then again, just about every serious
woodworker I know also bought primarily new. The cost of a pretty
decent shop is going to be in the neighborhood of $10K, if you can
find a house for that much, buy it.
Does that include the forklift?

I have yet to ever find myself needing a forklift of any size and
only once or twice thought a pallet jack might be sort of useful.
Where are you going to park the forklift when you're not using it
anyhow? Isn't that just wasted space that you could have more tools
or storage?

Access to a forklift and pallet jack would be very nice. All of the
shipping of large woodworking tools come to the freight terminal in
your city unless you ask for curbside delivery with a liftgate truck.
And that costs a hundred or so more dollars. With a forklift and
pallet jack you would not have to pay this extra shipping fee.

I can't see where the pallet jack helps unless you have a dock.

OTOH, it seems to me that a clever wooddorker might build a deck the
right height to be a dock and be careful with the gardening and problem
solved.

The house I grew up in was actually built that way--you could back an
18-wheeler up to the front porch and start unloading. Then my mother
started gardening . . .

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Put the forklift and forklift onto a trailer and haul it to the
trucking terminal. Have the people in the terminal put the pallet
with tool on it at the edge of the dock. Use the forklift to get the
pallet and tool off the dock and onto the trailer. Use the pallet
jack to position the pallet and tool at one end of the trailer. Drive
the forklift back onto the trailer. Pull the trailer with pallet and
tool and pallet jack and forklift home. Drive forklift off trailer.
Use pallet jack to move pallet and tool to one end of trailer. Use
forklift to pick up pallet and tool and drive inside the shop, or more
likely, near the door into the shop since the forklift is too big to
go into the shop through the door. Get pallet jack off trailer and
use it to move pallet and tool into shop through door and put it where
you want it in the shop.

Seems kind of simple that having a forklift completely eliminates the
need for a dock at your home. And the pallet jack makes it possible
to move the tool exactly where you need it.

On Mar 2, 2:58 pm, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote:
Say you want to setup a home shop for both metal and wood
working....what older American or European machines would you choose
to populate the shop with? In a home shop environment, the size of the
work envelope can vary greatly with the work done so a number of
different candidates exist for the same function performed.

With welders, I would consider that newer machines might be more
desirable.

I have listed what categories I would consider might be wanted in a
combination metal and wood work shop for the serious hobbist.

I look forward to hearing of your choices and the reasons why.

And feel free to add any tool that I might have forgotten.

Thanks

TMT

= Metalworking
- vertical mill
- horizontal mill
- metal shaper
- slower drill press
- small metal lathe
- larger metal lathe
- horizontal metal bandsaw
- vertical metal bandsaw
- surface grinder
- bench grinder
- band/disc sander
- belt sander
- tool grinder
- air compressor
- arbor press
- hydraulic press
- heat treating furnace
- bender, brake, shear, slip roll

= Woodworking
- table saw
- cross miter saw
- radial arm saw
- scroll saw
- vertical wood bandsaw
- jointer
- planer
- wood shaper
- wood lathe
- faster drill press

= Welding
- ARC welder
- TIG welder
- MIG welder
- A/Ox welder

= Material Handling
- SMALL forklift (1000-2000lbs.)
- Pallet jack



TMT Unless you have a LOT of room and ideally a 2 room shop the wood
and metal combo can be pretty evil. But the thing is what are you
doing with them all.

As a home shop unless space and budget are infinite you have to make a
few choices usually.

the first thing that i think of is what are you doing with it.

Basically you need to decide whats going to be the core tool of the
shop for the work you do. the Core tools should be the best you can
possibly get and well setup and tooled to handle as many functions as
possible. For those who dont have infinite space it becomes far more
important to think of "Can i do it with what i have and just maybe
adjust the tooling" thats why all of the model engineer books form way
back post WW2 were so LATHE centric because milling machines were not
cheap or common but in comparison functional lathes were the trick is
to decide on the best tool to do the most jobs well. And ideally the
best tool for the job you do most at the same time. the trick is to
get the right tools at the heart the building out is easy.

the woodworking equivalent of the Well tooled lathe is a well equipped
tablesaw for almost any woodworking requiring right angle type cuts
and a good bandsaw for stuff like boatbuilding and luthier type work
where almost nothing is at right angles and even LESS is in a stright
line

Most Home shops will do mainly one or two things and hopefully be
adaptable to cope with other needs

A few general examples of the "core tools" and where a shop should
focus

A welding shop doing ornamental iron will have a good welding machine
(Process chosen by user preference) good O/A for heating shaping and
specialized cutting stuff, drill press, horizontal bandsaw, good
benches and vises as the "heart" of the shop But mills and lathes are
not critical in a shop wherer most of the work is by eyeball and
welding

a Machine shop will be focused on the Lathe and mill and associated
tooling as its core and the associated tooling and measurement a close
second. Stuff like grinders and jigborers and even to an extent
welding equipment are secondary since it can be worked around if need
be they are important but the shop wont grind to a halt or turn down
work because the jig borer is on the fritz

A forging shop needs a furnace to make castings.

On the woodworking side a furniture shop needs the tablesaw Jointer
and planer, Specialist shops might need steam bending equipment and
the bandsaw as their core

A luthier will be all planes bandsaw and benching as his primary
tools. Butthe drum maker (Luthiers backwoods cousin) will either have
a giant lathe or a router with all sorts of weird jigs as the core

A woodturning shop will be focuses on the Lathe Sharpening and tooling

And the list can go on and on from there.

Apologies to anyone who disapproves of my example of a core tools list


To me I do occasional woodworking stuff but my shop is drifting to be
what i would consider a prototype shop. I have a background in
electronics so my tools there are top notch which are kind of
Unnecessary when this is posted in welding woodworking and metal
newsgroups so i'll spare the details But making circuit boards and the
parts to control what i want to make is important. So the Core of my
shop right now is a well tooled lathe and a Good Tig welder and a
compressor to power hand tools, A milling machine is VERY much in the
cards but a CNC circuit board router is WAY up on my list compared to
just about EVERYONE reading this but by the same token my Machinists
Vice and a good array of hammers get as much mileage as my bench
grinder.

the woodworking stuff i have gets used often enough

but that having been said my secodary is metal art and thats a lot
looser in terms of specs since its all in how the eyeball likes it and
because i TIG weld i get secondary side jobs of just about anything
broken that anyone has in metal

I think the list is overkill because sets of it are perfect for
everyone but its too much for any one human. that haivng been said i
would LOVE to have the space to amass that much but the trick is to
find a core and build it up.

I will likely get a a milling machine then get a big lathe and using
my smaller lathe and mill recondition the big one then get rid of the
lightweight atlas and get another machine to recondition with the big
lathe and mill etc.......

but its all about finding the core that lets you do the most with the
least and working up form there

Brent
Ottawa Ontario

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:16:00 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:38:15 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Oh they can go into a basement shop ..getting them out..now there is a
serious issue...G

Isn't that always the case?

Getting it IN is easy... G

Getting it in /in one piece/ and operable, with no big holes in the
floor above, is almost as easy.

Some days, Mr. Gravity is not your friend. ;-P

-- Bruce --

You should look into a Altendorf sliding table saw, it has a smaller
footprint than a unisaw with support tables built around it, and is is
very versatile.

On Mar 4, 7:00 am, Brian Henderson
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 01:57:09 GMT, Lobby Dosser

wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
Then I'm not typical because the overwhelming majority of my buys have
been brand new. Then again, just about every serious woodworker I
know also bought primarily new. The cost of a pretty decent shop is
going to be in the neighborhood of $10K, if you can find a house for
that much, buy it.
Does that include the forklift?

I have yet to ever find myself needing a forklift of any size and only
once or twice thought a pallet jack might be sort of useful. Where
are you going to park the forklift when you're not using it anyhow?
Isn't that just wasted space that you could have more tools or
storage?

The guy with the workshop next to mine (100m2 so not small but not too
big) has a great setup using a hand forklift (Crown electric job). 1
wall of pallet racking and everything that is non-essential is
palletised. Table-saw, thicknesser, pan-brake, lathe etc etc. Floor
layout has various locations with "drop-in anchors" already in the
slab. If he's doing a project that requires the metal-working stuff,
it comes down off the racks, gets bolted down and away you go.
Woodworking and metal-working in the same workshop is less than ideal,
granted, but some of us don't get the choice. Good dust extraction and
regular cleaning is the key. For limited space is takes some beating.
Keeping the floor space clear also makes cleaning up the dust (metal
and wood) soooooooo much easier too. Piles of sawdust and grinding
sparks makes for lots of sirens and flashing lights and an insurance
company saying "what were you thinking!, don't think so mate".

On Mar 3, 3:00 pm, Brian Henderson
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 01:57:09 GMT, Lobby Dosser

wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
Then I'm not typical because the overwhelming majority of my buys have
been brand new. Then again, just about every serious woodworker I
know also bought primarily new. The cost of a pretty decent shop is
going to be in the neighborhood of $10K, if you can find a house for
that much, buy it.
Does that include the forklift?

I have yet to ever find myself needing a forklift of any size and only
once or twice thought a pallet jack might be sort of useful. Where
are you going to park the forklift when you're not using it anyhow?
Isn't that just wasted space that you could have more tools or
storage?

Regarding the 3 lathes - you state: (1) small and (2) larger metal
lathe, and (3) wood lathe...
Instaed of 3 - just get one old used USA made metal turning lathe -
Like a South Bend 13...plenty about if you look - even high school
metal shops...use it for the small, larger and for the wood lathe -
just bolt a piece angle to crossslide and go - I have been making
beautiful wood turnings on my SB 13 for years...and even if a bit worn
- will work better than most imports, and the home shop doesn't really
need brand new accuracy anyhow - plus once you get to know it - you
can make it as accurate as you understand the machine...it's a woman
though - but a good one..
For wood - I use hgihest (factory) speed most the time (1100 rpm) on
13 inch metal lathe - and that works fine - I can even make 1/8 thin
dowels just fine at that speed (most would say too slow) ..it can even
be a bit fast idf turning 12" logs. I like the SB weight and drive so
much I bought a shot 16/24 gap bed just to turn into a wood
lathe...far outperfoms any factory wood lathe when you put a 14' out
of balnce log on it (columns for a fireplace mantel)

This was a *home* shop??
goodgawd....
Too many tools, indeed!
And, 5,000 sq ft oughtta just about be enough space....

If space is an issue, consider that wood and metal often don't mix. Ditto
grinding dust and ways, welding sparks/fumes/flash and fire/health, etc.
Layout is probably as much of an issue as tool selection.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ps.com...
Say you want to setup a home shop for both metal and wood
working....what older American or European machines would you choose
to populate the shop with? In a home shop environment, the size of the
work envelope can vary greatly with the work done so a number of
different candidates exist for the same function performed.

With welders, I would consider that newer machines might be more
desirable.

I have listed what categories I would consider might be wanted in a
combination metal and wood work shop for the serious hobbist.

I look forward to hearing of your choices and the reasons why.

And feel free to add any tool that I might have forgotten.

Thanks

TMT


= Metalworking
- vertical mill
- horizontal mill
- metal shaper
- slower drill press
- small metal lathe
- larger metal lathe
- horizontal metal bandsaw
- vertical metal bandsaw
- surface grinder
- bench grinder
- band/disc sander
- belt sander
- tool grinder
- air compressor
- arbor press
- hydraulic press
- heat treating furnace
- bender, brake, shear, slip roll

= Woodworking
- table saw
- cross miter saw
- radial arm saw
- scroll saw
- vertical wood bandsaw
- jointer
- planer
- wood shaper
- wood lathe
- faster drill press

= Welding
- ARC welder
- TIG welder
- MIG welder
- A/Ox welder

= Material Handling
- SMALL forklift (1000-2000lbs.)
- Pallet jack

On 2 Mar 2007 12:37:49 -0800, wrote:


I look forward to hearing of your choices and the reasons why.

In my experience, the "typical" hobbyist buys almost nothing brand
new. If YOU are NOT typical and plan on buying new stuff, the list you
have will cost you more than the house you're putting all that stuff
in.

Boy, you said a mouthful there. I guess I'm one of the non-typical
hobbyists, since I rarely buy used, and my shop has cost at least half
the value of my house over the past five years- not including all the
stuff I made myself to save money. And that's for far less equipment
than that orgininal post had jammed into it!

It has taken me many years to collect the tools that I now have. If
you don't want to wait that long, you will likely compromise on your
choices and end up with more junk than you will likely want.

Yep, unless TMT just won the lottery, that is... I've spent a lot of
cash on my shops, but it took a long time and a lot of overtime and
contract jobs in my off time to do it.

On 3 Mar 2007 18:19:24 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Okay....now I understand.

VERY USEFUL machines,

Every shop should have at least one.

Here is a site that discusses a number of variations.

http://www.stackers.co.uk/

The downside is most cannot cross gravel or grass....so the search for
a smaller pneumatic forklift.

What... the hell... is a "pneumatic forklift"?

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...

http://www.stackers.co.uk/

The downside is most cannot cross gravel or grass....so the search for
a smaller pneumatic forklift.

What... the hell... is a "pneumatic forklift"?

Only the tyres are pneumatic. The lift is hydraulic....

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On 3 Mar 2007 18:19:24 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Okay....now I understand.

VERY USEFUL machines,

Every shop should have at least one.

Here is a site that discusses a number of variations.

http://www.stackers.co.uk/

The downside is most cannot cross gravel or grass....so the search for
a smaller pneumatic forklift.

What... the hell... is a "pneumatic forklift"?

The term pneumatic refers to pressurizedair powered. I don't think a
pneumatic forklift is in existance at this time, or ever will be. I think
the original poster meant hydraulic forklift, which is still inaccurate,
considering the fact that the electric models on the web site he provided
all use hydraulic pumps to lift the forks. The proper term he may be looking
for is internal combustion engine powered.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:35:45 -0400, "Brian"
wrote:


"Prometheus" wrote in message
.. .
On 3 Mar 2007 18:19:24 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Okay....now I understand.

VERY USEFUL machines,

Every shop should have at least one.

Here is a site that discusses a number of variations.

http://www.stackers.co.uk/

The downside is most cannot cross gravel or grass....so the search for
a smaller pneumatic forklift.

What... the hell... is a "pneumatic forklift"?

The term pneumatic refers to pressurizedair powered. I don't think a
pneumatic forklift is in existance at this time, or ever will be. I think
the original poster meant hydraulic forklift, which is still inaccurate,
considering the fact that the electric models on the web site he provided
all use hydraulic pumps to lift the forks. The proper term he may be looking
for is internal combustion engine powered.

I know- hence the ellipses. I guess the point I was making rather
obliquely is that if a guy doesn't know that there is no such thing as
an air-powered forklift, it's probably not a good idea to buy one and
try it out around the house- especially after he puts the tines
through one of the walls, and gets it stuck in that grass he thinks it
might cross. If you already know how to drive one, they're easy
enough- but I wouldn't want a beginner driving one around anything I
cared about. Most folks think it's just like drving a car, and
proceed to smash things up nicely the first time they give it a whirl.

Only thing I'd take on grass with tines on it is a tractor or a
skyjack. Even gravel is usually asking for trouble with your average
shop forklift- and if you don't have a good sized truck to pull it
out, you're in for a lot of work when it gets stuck.

But while we're on the subject, if any of you guys are thinking that
you might need such a thing (and I've considered the value of a home
forklift once or twice, I admit, but it soon passes,) it's worthwhile
to look into getting a used Ford type N tractor. They're little, and
have a power takeoff and hydraulic attachments that make them useful
for all sorts of things around the yard, like digging holes with an
auger, plowing the driveway, digging trenches to bury lines, putting a
boom on it to lift shingles or trusses if you're inclined to do a
little roofing or framing, etc- and they usually go for about $2k,
which is less than a forklift, IIRC. Not so good inside the shop,
unless you've got a really big shop, but one of those would get stuff
off a truck and to the inside of the door pretty easily, and a pallet
jack will usually do the job once you get stuff that far.