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Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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#1
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
I'd like to revisit an old dilemma that sometimes comes up when
woodturners gather, that is if you believe it is a dilemma at all. It may be just another 'OTOH' subject we argue about. Anyway, what is your take re under pricing, and implied under valuing or grossly overpricing of turned pieces by competent but average hobbyists who are occasional sellers. Please consider _only competent, but little known turners and omit both well known and well below average turners. Choose any selling site or event you wish, but stick with one venue. Is it wrong to under-price those turners who try to make a decent profit from their hobby or need to make a turning business succeed? OTOH, is it wrong to deny a comfortably well off hobbyist the self satisfaction of selling a turning by urging that s/he take into consideration _all the expenses and costs of production and then charge a businesslike price? Conversely, should a barely competent turner trying to start a business lower his prices? OTOH is it wrong for a hobbyist who doesn't care whether anybody buys his stuff or not to put an outlandish value on it just to stroke his ego? Does trying to sell crappy work at a low price demean the craft very much? OTOH, who defines crap, especially when spouses, friends and family universally think Dad's work is wonderful and he should sell some of it? Is woodturning accepted enough and the economics and scale of its market robust enough to accommodate all good (not great or well known) turners who offer their turnings for sale at whatever price they choose? Is our image as craftsmen and artists strong enough now to let the market decide _if we can sell whatever we want to make at whatever price we want to put on it or is its status still fragile and needs to be coddled? Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#2
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
Arch... this is an old conundrum that crosses all manner of trades,
crafts and even artistic endeavors. You questions are good ones, ones that don't get much notice from anyone until they themselvs become "craftsmen" or "artists". The general public doesn't noice much about craft works until they are involved (or like when I put up crown molding or replace a custom cabinet for a fee) in it. As a professional woodworkier for many years, I have had my feelings hurt many times in the past when I see someone take a job from me because they underbid it. It hurts worse when I see the job finished, and I don't think it meets the expectations of the owner that paid for it. But we live in a free, capitalist society, and just because someone getst their feelings hurt or their pride takes a hit doesn't mean someone else did something wrong. All I have to do is change out "turned bowl" for "3 layered 6" crown mold" to make my point. I have been paid for my work for almost 40 years. I have put more time, effort, and money into learning what I do than I would rather admit. Yet, I miss a job now and again because someone will take a less quaility. Pricing? Always a problem. Always. When we don't have good weather for a month or so, prices on outside work start to crumble. When thing slow down locally for a few months it is a disaster. And since any yahoo with a hammer and a working saw is "a full charge carpenter", there is always a lot of competition. Yet over a period of years, I have managed to build enough client loyalty to stay pretty busy, no matter what the conditions. Take that to the "craft" of woodturning. Any weekend yahoo with a lathe is a "woodturner". Anyone that sells a piece dreams of "turning pro" without having any idea what that means except they get to turn all day. And there are thousands of turners out there, some not so good, some absolutely gifted. So there is plenty of competition, and more coming all the time. What right does the "pro" have to demand that prices be higher than market. Notice that these deamands usually pertain to the low value of their work only - a lower priced beautiful object bought from a fellow turner is known as a "good deal" or even a "gloat". The market determines the price. That's it. Period. If there are ten million hollow vessels, prices will indeed be low. And the irony of all the argument of higher prices is that they have been so low for so long most of the demo guys that make the circuit would tell you it takes all their efforts to make money in the "craft". Turning, teaching, writing books, giving seminars, shows, etc., are all needed just to keep their face out there to maintian themselves as a viable commodity. Besides, do you think they get top dollar because they mastered their "craft"? No way. They sold their original pieces for what they could get to get their work out there. These guys went to county fairs, gave free demos, probably gave away some of their work as prizes for promotions and put a helluva lot into defining their little corner fo the world of woodturning. Not to mention going to the turning fairs and get togethers to promote themselves. Like all the hours I put into building my company, they did the same things to build their brand. And like me, they face competition of all sorts. I personally think that if you can't deal with the market, or someone else's pricing bothers you so much that you can't deal with it you probably should continue to give all your turned stuff to the relatives at Christmas time. Robert |
#3
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
I've been asked about this at work, it's a tricky topic. I've always
recommended that a turner get "market" price. I define market price for what a local pro would get. Yes, a 30 year veteran gets say $150 for a peppermill, thats what I suggest, and it's up to the buyer to decide if it's worth it or not. Some people I just don't belong in the business, others should charge above market. For myself, I'd rather find out how to be honest to both. |
#4
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
"Arch" wrote in message ... Is woodturning accepted enough and the economics and scale of its market robust enough to accommodate all good (not great or well known) turners who offer their turnings for sale at whatever price they choose? Is our image as craftsmen and artists strong enough now to let the market decide _if we can sell whatever we want to make at whatever price we want to put on it or is its status still fragile and needs to be coddled? "You can't make a living selling big trombones ... no sir! Mandolin picks perhaps, and here and there a Jews' harp." Once you sell the band, you don't have to sell trombones. Or you could become a music teacher.... |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
I always have a terrible time putting a price on turnings. I wish
someone would come out with a definite "formula". Part of my problem revolves around my own feelings of what is bad, good, or really good. I often work with discarded wood. Does this reduce the value? I also look at other people's work that I admire and often fall short in my own valuation. A friend of mine turns wonderful bowls, the average price being about $300. I don't think I can come close to the quality he puts in so I value my work accordingly. Family and friends think my stuff is equal or better but then again, they give me ties and socks I'll never wear for Christmas! My best price thus far was $125 for a 12" salad bowl. By the same token, some work I see sells for outrageous prices for what I know took about 30 minutes to turn using commonly available lumber. I know it's 30 minutes because I saw him do it. He is not a well known turner and gets $800 for a 4" thin walled goblet! To me, that's insane but I'm sure his banker is smiling! I also found that the audience has a lot to do with it. I sell a lot at farmer's markets and craft fairs. My main shoppers there are rural people. They look a lot for usability. A salad bowl is meant for lettuce and things and if the price doesn't reflect the price of lettuce and fresh vegetables, it stays there. The odd time calls for a gift of some sort where they will put a little more money down but by far, they look for treenware and other related items. I also find that this is the place where "gloss" (yuck!) commands a better price. On the other hand, I have had sales in or around office type people and I probably could have doubled my prices and still clear out the table. Being an ex office worker, I remember the times when I'd go shopping on my lunch hour or coffee break to buy a gift. Not much time to really shop, buy in a certain price range, charge it all to plastic. I think target audience has everything to do with it. You usually determine who your target audience should be before you set up a business. I did mine backward, mind you it didn't start out as a business. When I started turning, I refused to "prostitute" myself by selling my work. I have since become somewhat of a hooker! To find my target audience, I looked at who bought and what they paid over a 2 year period, then determined they were my target audience(s). I have 2 very distinct ones. The rural crowd and the city crowd. The rural go for the fun stuff, treen, small boxes, toys, single pens. The others for the bowls, fancy boxes, pen sets and desk accessories and pieces that serve no useful purpose whatsoever or "emotional" pieces like a bowl from that "tree planted when grandpa was a young'un". Lately, I've been doing production work, if doing 500 pieces of the same item qualify. Here you quibble over a single dollar or less per item. I lost a bid for a .30 difference. Mind you, they wanted 2000 pieces so it all adds up. In this last instance however, I learned a valuable lesson; " you can't compete with Taiwan"! For this type of job, I price out all the materials, run a sample of 12 or so pieces to get an average time, determine what my "day" is worth to me, and go from there. It's not as lucrative but it's guaranteed income. There are still things you can't predict, like my lathe giving up half way through the job. Thankfully the job guaranteed enough income to buy a much wanted/desired lathe with which I can do more production work! (not really what I had in mind!). My biggest underestimation in production work was placing a cost on boredom! I should have priced it out at double time! Still clueless, still trying to figure it all out. Mike Courteau http://www.toymakersite.com |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
Mike R. Courteau wrote:
Still clueless, still trying to figure it all out. Here, here! I'm trying to turn a buck here ... whether that means I've 'turned pro' or not depends largely on whether I succeed or not. The jury is still out. What I did was check out the sorts of prices for pens & such as seemed common on other web sites. Mine are within a buck or two of what others who seem to have a similar set of skills are charging. I'm not a master turner by any measure ... my work ranges from junior-high to early-apprentice. Six hundred years from now they'll be worth something. For now, they are priced from about $15 (for a TINY bowl I probably have a good 10 hours into, playing with the finish) to $200 for a nicely executed bowl with better than average grain and good form. And that's where the prices will stay. Given that this world is FULL of people with widely varying tastes and financial ability, and also given that I am in no particular hurry to sell, I will get the asking price for everything I post. Eventually. My idea is to put out a variety of work with a variety of price tags. "The Market" will tell me what to turn more of. In the meantime, I try to spend at least 1/2 of each day actually spinning wood. Word of mouth is keeping me semi-busy spinning pens with all but one of my customers (so far) repeating at least once. That's nice ... but it's also ALL 'custom' work. The idea behind the website is to get sales without the tyranny of a constant deadline. Bill -- I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a **** unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about. H. P. Lovecraft --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000719-0, 02/28/2007 Tested on: 3/1/2007 12:05:45 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#7
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
Hi Arch,
Let me wade in to this at least to my ankles/neck...I turn wood for fun and I sell it for fun and for whatever price the market will bear. Now and then, if I've got all the end grain smooth, I'll ask a cheeky price! Won't always get it but then, I don't do this to make a living. I don't think you can equate most woodturners output, pros and amateurs alike, to that of framers, carpenters, plumbers, doctors or lawyers. Not many folk 'need' turnings. Anyway, because I live in a 'craft' oriented community, not many locals buy round art. They are all busy 'turning' and a few.. growing BCB? We all look at the galleries posted by 'known' turners and some of their work is simply outstanding; however, some of it is not. Even for the latter, they ask much more that my 'cheeky' stuff. To become a 'known' turner one must sell lots of turnings to lots of peopleand it helps if some of the buyers are famous and rich!! Most buyers in smalltown America/Canada are just ordinary people and will not buy $150 to $300 pieces of round wood unless the Artist is 'renowned'. So, I price my work for what I think it will fetch. I owe no one an explanation for that and I don't feel obligated to adjust my prices to 'protect' someone's income. Free market rules and the American way, right? Oh, and I take the bundles of $$ and either buy more wood or more tools or a Chinese dinner for the wife and I. Wouldn't it be nice to say 'a new car' or 'a vacation'? One more thought, as the Devil's advocate, if an amateurs offerings sells as well as the pros, what does that say for the pro and the buyer? Has the amateur slipped into the realm of PRO? FLAME ON .... Tom "Arch" wrote in message ... I'd like to revisit an old dilemma that sometimes comes up when woodturners gather, that is if you believe it is a dilemma at all. It may be just another 'OTOH' subject we argue about. Anyway, what is your take re under pricing, and implied under valuing or grossly overpricing of turned pieces by competent but average hobbyists who are occasional sellers. Please consider _only competent, but little known turners and omit both well known and well below average turners. Choose any selling site or event you wish, but stick with one venue. |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
I think some folks don't understand what it means to "go pro". Sounds
great. Sounds high powered and important. To hear some talk it sounds like something noble, almost like answering to a higher calling. Unless you are independently wealthy, you will do what you need to do to get your fledgling business off the ground. You will become quite flexible in your pricing once you discover you need gas in your tank, money for a show, or money to pay utilities. All thoughts of the higher calling will disappear when you turn some of your best work, and you are outsold by someone that turns 80-90% as well as you do, but gets his premium wood all free and is woodturning across the USA making shows and enjoying his retirement. His prices are less since he is doing it on a lark, and you are screwed. I started as a carpenter many years ago, and got to the point that I don't really care for it. I started out in that trade because I enjoyed woodwork. Sometimes now it is like shoveling dirt. I enjoy a challenging project, but not for the sake of the finished project but for the challenge itself. I don't get much enjoyment out of making doors, running crown mold, making cabinets, etc. Too many years later and it is work, like someone going to the office. But I enjoy my woodturning, and only sell enough to pay for new tools. I like selling giftware and tend to sell it a little too cheap to my friends and family for them to use as gifts. They like having a source of unique gifts, and I like turning the wood and having the dough for more gouges and an extra chuck. I price my stuff based on what I think I should make an hour, factor in incidentals (if applicable) such as finish, paper, wood, glue, and go from there. I take a prototype to some of my craft type amigos and amigas and ask them what they would pay and match it to my estimate. Now I have a baseline. Placing that number on the object, I see how well it sells, and how it fits into the market. I adjust accordingly and start at that number. Make sure your product is appropriate for the market you are after. Many years ago I had a good friend that was a super sales man and he always told me: " You can't sell Cadillacs in a Chevrolet market and people that drive Cadillacs don't want Chevrolets". Price accordingly. Robert |
#9
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
On Feb 28, 1:22 am, (Arch) wrote:
I'd like to revisit an old dilemma that sometimes comes up when woodturners gather, that is if you believe it is a dilemma at all. It may be just another 'OTOH' subject we argue about. Anyway, what is your take re under pricing, and implied under valuing or grossly overpricing of turned pieces by competent but average hobbyists who are occasional sellers. Please consider _only competent, but little known turners and omit both well known and well below average turners. Choose any selling site or event you wish, but stick with one venue. snip snip Very timely discussion. (I'll get to that at the end of this post) First, I do believe that the market dictates. Period. And sometimes the market influence includes who the turner is. Someone trying to make a living off it will set higher prices (to pay the mortgage) and market it as-such, while a hobbyist selling some stuff will probably have a lower price (to buy more wood and tool) The pro has to price his/her work for the market, but also consider that they won't be turning all day. There is time required to sell - that's unproductive time. So, it may take 1 hour to make something, but they spend 3 hours marketing, selling, doing administration, etc. So, the 1 hour turning takes 4 hours total before he gets a return. Hence the high prices on artisan products from pro's. You do have to make the assumption that it's a higher quality, too, but not always! Why is it timely? Well, this weekend in the Toronto Star, there was an article about a chocolate company. The couple set their prices so high, that they got lots of attention from the uber rich. They positioned the product in very high-end packaging (probably worth more than the chocolate) so it became 'the' gift for rich and famous folks to give. Result: extravegant pricing for chocolate, small number of sales, but at a very high profit. Needless to say, they are doing well. They mentioned that the Gov of California did the same thing when he came to America - had a hard time finding work (as a stone mason, I think) so on a recommendation from a friend, raised his prices and billed himself as a European Mason. Result, more work. Go figure. So, the high priced work, as long as it's quality, that is well marketed and positioned, will sell to the market that doesn't mind paying the price. Most of the rest will be bought based on what the buyer thinks it's worth. And, if you think hobby turners are undercutting prices, take a look at Walmart and the like - They probably sell wooden salad bowls for dirt cheap. I used to sell wood products at craft fairs. Did ok, but couldn't live on it - it really just fuelled the hobby. Also sold at some retail outfits, which is another consideration on price. If they paid me $50, they sold it for $100. I did better at a small Artists consignment store, where you set the price and they took a modest commission. Michel. www.woodstoneproductions.com Wood Portal |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
OTOH, who defines crap, especially when spouses, friends and
family universally think Dad's work is wonderful and he should sell some of it? Arch, I honestly believe that only the person doing the work can really define if it's crap or not. Family & friends are not only biased, they are not nearly well enough informed. As turners, we have all looked at and evaluated far more material (books, videos, shows, etc.) because of our interest than they have. I've done pieces that family, friends and others raved about that I was disappointed in. Once I pointed out exactly what bothered me about the piece and how it should be improved I most often got one of two comments. Either "I see what you mean" (usually followed by "but I still like it" or "You're just too critical of yourself". While I am critical of my work I don't think I'm overly so. I simply try to be honest. I've done a number of pieces that I love (a couple that I even think are perfect) and some that I think are coyote ugly. The vast majority of what I do fall somewhere in between. In the final analysis, the only thing that matters is if the piece measures up to your own expectations or falls short, or perhaps how short it falls. I honestly believe we do this primarily for satisfaction. Crap doesn't satisfy. |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
Tom Storey wrote:
vacation'? One more thought, as the Devil's advocate, if an amateurs offerings sells as well as the pros, what does that say for the pro and the buyer? Has the amateur slipped into the realm of PRO? FLAME ON .... Tom That reminds me of the many hours we've spent the past year contemplating and debating what is 'art' and "can a utilitarian wood turning qualify?" To be honest, I can't answer your question just now ... but if everyone who reads this newsgroup will visit my web site and buy just 2 items, by next week I could probably give you a reasonably authoritative answer. ;-)))) Just kidding ... I had to take down the catalog portion of the site because a file got mucho bungled up and kept me from accepting CC's. I've started reloading the catalog with merchandise this afternoon and should have it available again by Monday. I'm in a "have-to" position as the CC vendors are going to bill me ... sales or no. Bill http://nmwoodworks.com -- I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a **** unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about. H. P. Lovecraft --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000720-0, 03/01/2007 Tested on: 3/2/2007 1:34:57 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
I think one of the biggest differences between pro and amateur is that
the pro doesn't mind waiting a onger period of time to mover their peices, whereas the amateur (speaking for self here) just likes to see whatever they've turned leave ASAP. I sold a 12" bowl from spalted maple for $50. It was probably on e of the prettiest bowls I had ever turned. I felt guilty for charging the person that much for a bowl. My background and raising was from a practical view. If you didn't "need" it, you didn't buy it. I've begun to see lately that others didn't come from that sort of raising. As I said, the bowl I turned and sold for $50 was beautiful, but I wouldn't have paid that for it, maybe $10-15 if I had someone in mind needing a nice gift. ITS A BOWL!!!!! Is it wrong for me to have a concious when it comes to pricing my bowls. REMINDER: we are talking about bowls, made of wood.....corian or plastic bowls will last longer (in most instances) and they can be washed in the dishwasher. I know my bowls are priced lower than anyone elses. The reason is not because I want to sell all my stuff so I undercut the competitior, the reason is I can't conciously charge somone a pricie that I feel is unfair. This is my hobby, not my job. I would like to cover some of the expenses from the shop so my wife (and I) remains happy. There are times when I sell something that I realize the buyer would have paid more, but the next bowl that looks very similar or nearly identical will be priced the same way. That's just who I am. As a contractor, it didnt' matter to me who the person was or how much money they made, they all got the same price. I did a lot of government contract work, I didn't charge more because it was government work like others did. I turn because I enjoy it and need a release. I sell because after you stack 15 finished bowls around on your wife's furninture, she tells you to get rid of them. I sell also because it feels good to see someone else find value in something you made. Thats my 2 cents, D. |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
where are you guys selling?
here in colorado very few turner can get much for their work. I've sold only a few things and those are to people I know. I initially set a price of $15/hr that it took to make something and then lower the price from there. Even then with some items in shops nothing sells even at a significant mark down. When I talk to my brother in Georgia he comments on how much better the quality of my stuff that I've given away is compared to the turnings he sees at fairs that sell for 100's (and people snap them up for that price). Here at major art fairs I've seen very nice stuff for sale but nobody buying. Arch wrote: I'd like to revisit an old dilemma that sometimes comes up when woodturners gather, that is if you believe it is a dilemma at all. It may be just another 'OTOH' subject we argue about. Anyway, what is your take re under pricing, and implied under valuing or grossly overpricing of turned pieces by competent but average hobbyists who are occasional sellers. Please consider _only competent, but little known turners and omit both well known and well below average turners. Choose any selling site or event you wish, but stick with one venue. Is it wrong to under-price those turners who try to make a decent profit from their hobby or need to make a turning business succeed? OTOH, is it wrong to deny a comfortably well off hobbyist the self satisfaction of selling a turning by urging that s/he take into consideration _all the expenses and costs of production and then charge a businesslike price? Conversely, should a barely competent turner trying to start a business lower his prices? OTOH is it wrong for a hobbyist who doesn't care whether anybody buys his stuff or not to put an outlandish value on it just to stroke his ego? Does trying to sell crappy work at a low price demean the craft very much? OTOH, who defines crap, especially when spouses, friends and family universally think Dad's work is wonderful and he should sell some of it? Is woodturning accepted enough and the economics and scale of its market robust enough to accommodate all good (not great or well known) turners who offer their turnings for sale at whatever price they choose? Is our image as craftsmen and artists strong enough now to let the market decide _if we can sell whatever we want to make at whatever price we want to put on it or is its status still fragile and needs to be coddled? Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
william kossack wrote:
where are you guys selling? here in colorado very few turner can get much for their work. I've sold only a few things and those are to people I know. I initially set a price of $15/hr that it took to make something and then lower the price from there. Even then with some items in shops nothing sells even at a significant mark down. When I talk to my brother in Georgia he comments on how much better the quality of my stuff that I've given away is compared to the turnings he sees at fairs that sell for 100's (and people snap them up for that price). Here at major art fairs I've seen very nice stuff for sale but nobody buying. Location, location, location. Add a web site to the mix and sell internationally? Bill -- I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a **** unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about. H. P. Lovecraft --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000721-1, 03/03/2007 Tested on: 3/3/2007 3:50:40 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work.
On Mar 3, 10:41 am, william kossack wrote:
where are you guys selling? here in colorado very few turner can get much for their work. I've sold only a few things and those are to people I know. I initially set a price of $15/hr that it took to make something and then lower the price from there. Even then with some items in shops nothing sells even at a significant mark down. When I talk to my brother in Georgia he comments on how much better the quality of my stuff that I've given away is compared to the turnings he sees at fairs that sell for 100's (and people snap them up for that price). Here at major art fairs I've seen very nice stuff for sale but nobody buying. OK - I have to ask. I just have to... if your work is that good compared to the market pieces that sell for HUNDREDS per bowl where your brother lives, and you are ****ing in a fan where you live when trying to sell, why in the sweet name of everything good don't you sell your stuff in Georgia? Why screw around locally? Send some stuff off to a couple of galleries in GA, or have your brother establish a contact with someone selling like products... anything to get going. Instead of selling for hundreds per bowl, just sell for a couple of hundred and they should sell easily and very quickly. The kind of money you could make would fill you shop with all manner of tools you probably wouldn't have bought, plus a little extra scratch for buying SO a new goody or taking her out to dinner. This doesn't make sense to me... you know where a seemingly lucrative market is for your exact product (half the battle for success in business), but you don't sound like you are making any effort to get established in it. Yes? No? Robert |
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