Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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Default Musing on Arch's musings

Talking about how long the edge of a gouge lasts, and the varieties of
steels to use got me thinking along another line. I learned that for
bowl turning, the gouge was the only tool necessary. Somewhere along
the line, I got to thinking about the turners out there who use
scrapers for all phases of their bowl turning. Being the curious type,
with a need to experiment (I haven't done anything to the point where
I do it the same way every time), I started using scrapers on bowls.
Even using them in a shear cutting mode, I can't get as good of a cut
as I can with a gouge, but for all the shaping and roughing cuts, I
think it beats the gouge hands down. For one thing, it is easier for
me to work in a push and pull cut, and in roughing, you don't really
have to worry about grain orientation.

For many reasons, I can never seem to get as smooth of a cut on the
inside of the bowl as I can on the outside. The scraper helps me clean
it up a lot, and is easier to maneuver around the curves in the
bottom.

Comments?

robo hippy

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"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Talking about how long the edge of a gouge lasts, and the varieties of
steels to use got me thinking along another line. I learned that for
bowl turning, the gouge was the only tool necessary. Somewhere along
the line, I got to thinking about the turners out there who use
scrapers for all phases of their bowl turning. Being the curious type,
with a need to experiment (I haven't done anything to the point where
I do it the same way every time), I started using scrapers on bowls.
Even using them in a shear cutting mode, I can't get as good of a cut
as I can with a gouge, but for all the shaping and roughing cuts, I
think it beats the gouge hands down. For one thing, it is easier for
me to work in a push and pull cut, and in roughing, you don't really
have to worry about grain orientation.

For many reasons, I can never seem to get as smooth of a cut on the
inside of the bowl as I can on the outside. The scraper helps me clean
it up a lot, and is easier to maneuver around the curves in the
bottom.

Comments?


Use a different gouge. always easier to cut with a good bevel riding than to
fiddle freehand. Imagine the stability of you scraper with the antirotation
capability of a bevel contacting the work. One-handed possible, though two
recommended.

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On Feb 25, 12:44 pm, "robo hippy" wrote:
Talking about how long the edge of a gouge lasts, and the varieties of
steels to use got me thinking along another line. I learned that for
bowl turning, the gouge was the only tool necessary. Somewhere along
the line, I got to thinking about the turners out there who use
scrapers for all phases of their bowl turning. Being the curious type,
with a need to experiment (I haven't done anything to the point where
I do it the same way every time), I started using scrapers on bowls.
Even using them in a shear cutting mode, I can't get as good of a cut
as I can with a gouge, but for all the shaping and roughing cuts, I
think it beats the gouge hands down. For one thing, it is easier for
me to work in a push and pull cut, and in roughing, you don't really
have to worry about grain orientation.

For many reasons, I can never seem to get as smooth of a cut on the
inside of the bowl as I can on the outside. The scraper helps me clean
it up a lot, and is easier to maneuver around the curves in the
bottom.

Comments?

robo hippy


I've got a raft of 5 or 6 bowl gouges, and probably a dozen more at
work, ring tools, rolly munro and the crown heavy duty scrapers. After
a reasonable amount of play I like the gouge best. It leaves the least
amount of damage to sand, and offers maximum control. I guess I've
witnessed too many guys whip out a scraper for cove work on spindles,
I'm jaded against them.
Don't get me wrong, a scraper has it's place, but it seems it's the
last tool of resort in my arsenal.

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Default Musing on Arch's musings

robo hippy wrote:
Talking about how long the edge of a gouge lasts, and the varieties of
steels to use got me thinking along another line. I learned that for
bowl turning, the gouge was the only tool necessary. Somewhere along
the line, I got to thinking about the turners out there who use
scrapers for all phases of their bowl turning. Being the curious type,
with a need to experiment (I haven't done anything to the point where
I do it the same way every time), I started using scrapers on bowls.
Even using them in a shear cutting mode, I can't get as good of a cut
as I can with a gouge, but for all the shaping and roughing cuts, I
think it beats the gouge hands down. For one thing, it is easier for
me to work in a push and pull cut, and in roughing, you don't really
have to worry about grain orientation.

For many reasons, I can never seem to get as smooth of a cut on the
inside of the bowl as I can on the outside. The scraper helps me clean
it up a lot, and is easier to maneuver around the curves in the
bottom.

Comments?

robo hippy


While I get a great deal of mileage using a skew on spindle work, I
always rough in & rough shape a bowl using a scraper. I have two
home-made scrapers with shallow LH / RH curves ground into them for
smoothing out curves. I bring the exterior to shape & then make a
smoothing cut with a gouge. I don't own a true bowl-gouge so the
scrapers are the last steel on the inside.

So, I would guess that my experience / perspective rather closely
mirrors yours in the above matter.

Bill


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is worth a **** unless backed up with enough genuine information to make
him really know what he's talking about.

H. P. Lovecraft


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In article .com,
"robo hippy" wrote:

....

For many reasons, I can never seem to get as smooth of a cut on the
inside of the bowl as I can on the outside. The scraper helps me clean
it up a lot, and is easier to maneuver around the curves in the
bottom.

Comments?

Similar results. I keep practicing with the bowl-gouge, but I am still
faster with the 1-1/2x3/4 scrapper. Like you though, the shear cut
finish is nice, saves a lot of sanding time.

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There is now and has been for many years a general consensus amoung
many that if you scrape instead of cut, you aren't really a good
turner. I have heard that for years, and certainly heard it from many
a demonstrator when they say "what you need to do here is practice
riding that bevel all the way to the outside", etc. They never pick
up a scraper.

I learned to use a bowl gouge, and I like it. But when I have a deep
vessel of sorts (like the one I just finished - 4" across, and 7"
deep) I cannot get the angle to use a bowl gouge to finish the insdie
bottom. Then comes the scraper. Sometimes the angles seem to keep me
from getting the transition from bottom to side finished without
ridges, then out comes the scraper. I have a 1/2" x 1" that is about
10" on the blade, and if I don't get too agressive it will leave a
great surface.

But this has come to such a head that in one of the latest woodturning
magazines they have an article by none other than Mike Darlow on the
"cutting v. scraping" issue. He concedes that he seen nationally
known turners (Sorin Berger?) make bowls with little more than a
roughing gouge and a 2" scraper.

But he does in an off handed and nebulous way give up the fact that
scraping could be an accepted way of woodturning. He makes it
abundantly clear that he is a cutter, but allows there might be room
for scraping.

Scraping is easier to learn, easier to control, and easier to teach.
So why not use the scraper? I dunno. I have no idea. Even Darlow
admits that he has had better luck teaching scraping rather than using
the bowl gouge. Yet in his article, he seems (at least to me) to let
on that he could accept scraping, yet not approve of it.

I say screw 'em. However you get the wood shaped the way you want is
your business. Scrape, cut, grind, drill, or saw any way you want to
get to the end is your business. Probably 99% of all turners are
hobby guys anyway, so why not learn the easiest way to do something so
you can get the most pleasure out of your hobby?

And I have never seen anyone set a pretty piece down because it was
scraped, not cut. And strangely, most turners don't even seem to
care.

Robert

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On Feb 26, 12:09 pm, Bill in Detroit wrote:
wrote:
I say screw 'em. However you get the wood shaped the way you want is
your business. Scrape, cut, grind, drill, or saw any way you want to
get to the end is your business. Probably 99% of all turners are
hobby guys anyway, so why not learn the easiest way to do something so
you can get the most pleasure out of your hobby?


Every area of human endeavor seems to have its Pharisees who want to
insist on the 'right' way to (pray, carve, turn, dance, quilt, cook ...
fill in the blank).

Will their way work? Sure.

Is their's the only way? Jesus sure didn't think so. Whenever they got
in his way, he handed them their butt in a paper bag.

Those guys who turned the worlds biggest bowl didn't use a (Oneway,
Stubby, Woodmaster, Robust ... again, fill in the blank) ... they used a
farm tractor.

The only tool before the finish that matters is the final one. For most
of us, that tool is sandpaper. How you get to the the sanding stage is
up to you.

Bill
--
I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject
is worth a **** unless backed up with enough genuine information to make
him really know what he's talking about.

H. P. Lovecraft

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I have figured for some time that the scraper is misnamed. With the 3
basic tools; scrapers, gouges, and skews, you can shear cut and scrape
cut, it depends on how you present the tool to the work.
robo hippy

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wrote in message
ups.com...
snip
However you get the wood shaped the way you want is
your business. Scrape, cut, grind, drill, or saw any way you want to
get to the end is your business. Probably 99% of all turners are
hobby guys anyway, so why not learn the easiest way to do something so
you can get the most pleasure out of your hobby?


I have to agree -- the idea is to have fun and how you go about it is your
business. Save your distain for important things like the wusses who use a
pencil to do the crossword puzzles when they should use a pen. 8^)



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Reading this thread I wonder how many people just sharpen a scraper but
never bother to "turn the edge" on it so that they get the very best
performance possible out of the scraper. Personally, I really like the
device put out by Veritas to turn the edge of of my scrapers. What I would
really like to finder is a scraper with a little steeper curve on the end
for working with bowls with a rather small diameter opening. (One with a
shaft that actually has a curve to the left.
"Scratch Ankle Wood" wrote in message
.. .

wrote in message
ups.com...
snip
However you get the wood shaped the way you want is
your business. Scrape, cut, grind, drill, or saw any way you want to
get to the end is your business. Probably 99% of all turners are
hobby guys anyway, so why not learn the easiest way to do something so
you can get the most pleasure out of your hobby?


I have to agree -- the idea is to have fun and how you go about it is your
business. Save your distain for important things like the wusses who use
a pencil to do the crossword puzzles when they should use a pen. 8^)


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com





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On Mar 3, 12:10 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:

What I would really like to finder is a scraper with a little steeper curve on the end for working with bowls with a rather small diameter opening. (One with a shaft that actually has a curve to the left.


You mean like this?

http://tinyurl.com/38ss9s

They are offered there with different size, patterns and cut angles.
But out of all the tools you can make youself, a scraper has to be the
easiest. A piece of tool steel, a large planer blade, etc., and you
have your blank. Grind with patience, and you have yourself a custom
designed scraper.

I have seen giant ones made out of car or truck springs (2" x 5/8" !!)
that hog out wood as fast as any contraption or tool I have ever
seen. The guy that made the tool is a turner that turns on a homemade
bowl lathe; he has a small store/show area in front of his house
outside one of our tourist towns. He cannot afford tools, nor would
it occur to him to purchase any. To him it would probably be a sin
against all he held dear to actually to purchase a tool.

In my own way, I admire that.

Robert
Robert

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On Mar 3, 10:36 am, "
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:10 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:

What I would really like to finder is a scraper with a little steeper curve on the end for working with bowls with a rather small diameter opening. (One with a shaft that actually has a curve to the left.


You mean like this?

http://tinyurl.com/38ss9s

They are offered there with different size, patterns and cut angles.
But out of all the tools you can make youself, a scraper has to be the
easiest. A piece of tool steel, a large planer blade, etc., and you
have your blank. Grind with patience, and you have yourself a custom
designed scraper.

I have seen giant ones made out of car or truck springs (2" x 5/8" !!)
that hog out wood as fast as any contraption or tool I have ever
seen. The guy that made the tool is a turner that turns on a homemade
bowl lathe; he has a small store/show area in front of his house
outside one of our tourist towns. He cannot afford tools, nor would
it occur to him to purchase any. To him it would probably be a sin
against all he held dear to actually to purchase a tool.

In my own way, I admire that.

Robert
Robert


I have used one of the triangle burnishers on my scrapers to turn an
edge, but that one doesn't seem to be as strong as the one I get fresh
from the grinder.
robo hippy

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That is not quite what I had in mind. If you can envision a convential
rounded end scraper made out of putty. While it is laying flat, you would
just bend the last inch or so of the sharpened end toward you. That is the
shape that I am thinking of.
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 3, 12:10 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:

What I would really like to finder is a scraper with a little steeper
curve on the end for working with bowls with a rather small diameter
opening. (One with a shaft that actually has a curve to the left.


You mean like this?

http://tinyurl.com/38ss9s

They are offered there with different size, patterns and cut angles.
But out of all the tools you can make youself, a scraper has to be the
easiest. A piece of tool steel, a large planer blade, etc., and you
have your blank. Grind with patience, and you have yourself a custom
designed scraper.

I have seen giant ones made out of car or truck springs (2" x 5/8" !!)
that hog out wood as fast as any contraption or tool I have ever
seen. The guy that made the tool is a turner that turns on a homemade
bowl lathe; he has a small store/show area in front of his house
outside one of our tourist towns. He cannot afford tools, nor would
it occur to him to purchase any. To him it would probably be a sin
against all he held dear to actually to purchase a tool.

In my own way, I admire that.

Robert
Robert



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Hi Bob

If I understand you right, than that tool would be called "The
guaranteed humongous catch tool" ;-)))

The upturned sharp edge would go into the wood and keep on going, for
an instant at least, than the force needed to do this would slam the
tool down, and you would have a giant catch, I would not want to be in
the shop with you when that happened.
The only cutting tools, (as opposed to scraping) for inside a deeper
vase or hollow form are the ring or hook tools.
If you go to Darrell Feltmate's website you can see how you can make a
hook tool and also how to use one, ring tools are used very similar,
The Oneway site has info on how to use their Termite tool.
Here's the link to Darrells site, lots of good info for all turners,
one of the best wood turner info sites around.

http://aroundthewoods.com/

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

On Mar 4, 1:55 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:
That is not quite what I had in mind. If you can envision a convential
rounded end scraper made out of putty. While it is laying flat, you would
just bend the last inch or so of the sharpened end toward you. That is the
shape that I am thinking wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 3, 12:10 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:


What I would really like to finder is a scraper with a little steeper
curve on the end for working with bowls with a rather small diameter
opening. (One with a shaft that actually has a curve to the left.


You mean like this?


http://tinyurl.com/38ss9s


They are offered there with different size, patterns and cut angles.
But out of all the tools you can make youself, a scraper has to be the
easiest. A piece of tool steel, a large planer blade, etc., and you
have your blank. Grind with patience, and you have yourself a custom
designed scraper.


I have seen giant ones made out of car or truck springs (2" x 5/8" !!)
that hog out wood as fast as any contraption or tool I have ever
seen. The guy that made the tool is a turner that turns on a homemade
bowl lathe; he has a small store/show area in front of his house
outside one of our tourist towns. He cannot afford tools, nor would
it occur to him to purchase any. To him it would probably be a sin
against all he held dear to actually to purchase a tool.


In my own way, I admire that.


Robert
Robert



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Thanks for the tips. I do have the Termite tool with three different sized
tips. I will check back on Darrells site for the hook tool.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Bob

If I understand you right, than that tool would be called "The
guaranteed humongous catch tool" ;-)))

The upturned sharp edge would go into the wood and keep on going, for
an instant at least, than the force needed to do this would slam the
tool down, and you would have a giant catch, I would not want to be in
the shop with you when that happened.
The only cutting tools, (as opposed to scraping) for inside a deeper
vase or hollow form are the ring or hook tools.
If you go to Darrell Feltmate's website you can see how you can make a
hook tool and also how to use one, ring tools are used very similar,
The Oneway site has info on how to use their Termite tool.
Here's the link to Darrells site, lots of good info for all turners,
one of the best wood turner info sites around.

http://aroundthewoods.com/

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

On Mar 4, 1:55 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:
That is not quite what I had in mind. If you can envision a convential
rounded end scraper made out of putty. While it is laying flat, you
would
just bend the last inch or so of the sharpened end toward you. That is
the
shape that I am thinking wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 3, 12:10 pm, "Bob Daun" wrote:


What I would really like to finder is a scraper with a little
steeper
curve on the end for working with bowls with a rather small
diameter
opening. (One with a shaft that actually has a curve to the left.


You mean like this?


http://tinyurl.com/38ss9s


They are offered there with different size, patterns and cut angles.
But out of all the tools you can make youself, a scraper has to be the
easiest. A piece of tool steel, a large planer blade, etc., and you
have your blank. Grind with patience, and you have yourself a custom
designed scraper.


I have seen giant ones made out of car or truck springs (2" x 5/8" !!)
that hog out wood as fast as any contraption or tool I have ever
seen. The guy that made the tool is a turner that turns on a homemade
bowl lathe; he has a small store/show area in front of his house
outside one of our tourist towns. He cannot afford tools, nor would
it occur to him to purchase any. To him it would probably be a sin
against all he held dear to actually to purchase a tool.


In my own way, I admire that.


Robert
Robert





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