This post contains updates and corrections to information presented in
my original Delta 46-756 lathe review.

The VFD controller information, in particular, is relevant to
Powermatic and Jet EVS owners as well, since it turns out they all
come from the same factory as the Delta units. Primary differences
lie in the varying degrees of eloquence in implementing the units into
the final product.

Don't care? Don't own one? Stop here...
Otherwise, on with the show...

This has not been Block and Wrecker's week.
It _has_ been faulty spreadsheet engineering/bean counter week.
A combination of Router and Lathe failures have left me annoyed at the
ongoing downward spiral of US manufacturing, engineering and support.
It's mostly a mess useless marketing and bean-counting morons...

Since the PC890 series router was recalled due to shorting motor
windings, and they resisted mailing a replacement, I had to drive 40
miles across a very crowded and unpleasant city to exchange the US
assembled router body for a new "improved" Mexican assembled unit at a
factory outlet. The replacement was new, and is an almost identical
unit, with the same imported parts - Now with Imported Labor. Only
the armature seems different. Let us hope that the words "pressure
impregnated windings" were mentioned in a conference room somewhere
along the way.

But the pièce de résistance was the failure of the new lathe, which
prompted a long, twisted journey into the bowels of B&D customer
service and various Tinglish VFD spec/programming manuals.

Turns out there exists in this lathe an intermittent condition which
causes the lathe to go into runaway mode, whereby the spindle speed
jumps to maximum programmed AC drive Master Frequency and the stop
button refuses to respond. Only by flipping the BRS (Big Red Switch,
a distant relative of the BOS which existed on the original IBM PCs)
are you able to shut-off power and stop the unit. It is an interesting
experience to have a 12" segmented vessel unexpectedly whiz up to 3000
RPM - especially when the stop button doesn't respond.

Did it consistently for two days, so I got online and discovered the
wretched abortion known as ServiceNet. This has got to be the worst
online ordering system I have ever used. Additionally, the newly
converted PDF parts layouts suffered a severe loss of resolution.
Glad I downloaded my older stuff before the Big Sellout. I then
discover the needed part is on backorder until January 16, 2007.

And that the replacement sells for $772.39 !!!
Holy Guano, Batman - I hope you get a reach-around with that!

So I call support and talk to the "engineer" who states that the
mysterious "F" which is constantly displayed represents a fault
condition, and that I need a new VFD controller due to the runaway
condition - shucks, they saw this exact same problem just a few days
ago. Their computer shows it to be backordered till, you guessed it,
Jan 16, 2007. Bought a lathe to do Christmas gifts, but it won't work
properly until after the New Year. Hmmm....

Being insatiably curious about such things, I asked who OEM'd the
controller and got an evasive/unknowing answer to the effect that,
"parts come from all over the world, and there is no one nameable
manufacturer of the VFD." Wrong answer, dude. Been in the
electronics business for many years, and I know that is utter BS.

Lest you fear that this is to digress into a spate of vendor bashing,
there is actually some useful information contained below - at least
for those who are interested in such things.

Spurred on by the conflicting/bogus information received, further
research revealed that not only is there a nameable manufacturer of
the VFD, but that it is the same company that produces a broad line of
industrial controllers, as well as the VFD's installed on Powermatic
and Jet lathes. And that company is Delta Electronics of Taiwan.
Absolutely no relation to B&D/Delta Machinery, however.

I also learned that I can buy a non-DeltaWW OEM controller for $235.
Or an almost identical Powermatic controller for $335. Not $772.39.

Of course, you'd have to spend 10 minutes programming the registers to
match the Delta defaults and swap the plastic door. Damned, that
works out to well over $500 an hour. Where do I sign up...

The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
The OEM version has a custom plastic door and a few pre-programmed
registers which make it non-standard - Unfortunately. The controller
is much more capable than it is allowed to be by the Delta register
settings. (For those who are unaware, the VFD is a microprocessor
controlled power switch, and contains non-volatile memory locations
which can be programmed with static values to enable/disable certain
built in functions of the basic unit. Among these features are
frequency/current/voltage readouts, and externally mounted
speed/start/stop/fwd/rev controls.

Jet and PM utilize these functions, Delta does not. If these functions
had not been locked out, an add-on box with heavy duty switches &
controls, a digital speed readout and mode indicators, etc. could be
built and retrofitted DIY for about $20. As it is, you would have to
connect the controller to a computer with an RS-485 port and
appropriate software, and rewrite the relevant registers. And that
naively assumes that they have not set a passcode to protect the
registers from being written to. Admittedly, the unenlightened could
really make a mess in there, but I consider it a loss (for me) to not
have easy access to the registers and various mode displays available.
Unfortunately, any attempt to do this would most assuredly void the
warranty, and this I can relate to. Motor damage, controller damage,
and personal injury could result from improper settings. However, the
minute the warranty expires, that sucker's getting modded for external
switches - unless I get fed up waiting 3 months for a VFD and dump the
whole thing back in the original vendor's lap.

It also turns out that the mysterious "F" display represents the
Frequency of the AC Drive Master Clock, which is then used to set the
ultimate speed of the motor. It does not represent a Fault condition.
Strangely enough, however, the runaway speed flaw has not presented a
fault code. Go figure...

There is a programmable divisor that may be used to present alternate
readouts based upon the AC Drive Master Frequency, but I am hazarding
a guess that the speed indicator on the panel does not represent an
accurate spindle RPM reading - which probably explains why PM and
General use a separate RPM display and pickup module.

In conclusion, it is amazing how much more acceptable this lathe would
have been in the market had Delta chosen to spend another $20-$50 in
materials. I'm beginning to think these guys aren't particularly
bright - particularly in the electronics arena.

Heavier machined toolrest/head/tail stock clamps, better controls (or
the ability to add them), a Zero Phase reactor coil to the VFD output,
and a TEFC motor would have rescued a product that is seemingly out of
favor with vendors and customers alike. Comparing this unit against
the Jet/General/PM is like night and day - but at a price. Since I
paid far less than retail, the sum comes to just about $500, but had I
been asked to pay $1800 - or more - I would have most likely passed it
over in favor of the Jet 16" EVS w/ 2HP 3phase TEFC motor. As it is,
I've only got a slight case of buyer's remorse - and that may diminish
once the waranty expires and the shortcomings are corrected, at least
in my tiny part of the world - courtesy of DIY.

FWIW

DGG (in ) said:

| The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
| controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
| the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
| The OEM version has a custom plastic door and a few pre-programmed
| registers which make it non-standard - Unfortunately. The controller
| is much more capable than it is allowed to be by the Delta register
| settings. (For those who are unaware, the VFD is a microprocessor
| controlled power switch, and contains non-volatile memory locations
| which can be programmed with static values to enable/disable certain
| built in functions of the basic unit. Among these features are
| frequency/current/voltage readouts, and externally mounted
| speed/start/stop/fwd/rev controls.

It's an extremely capable and flexible controller. I have one driving
the spindle on my ShopBot. Did you get the manual containing all of
the register/parameter info?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey said:

DGG (in ) said:

| The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
| controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
| the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.

It's an extremely capable and flexible controller. I have one driving
the spindle on my ShopBot. Did you get the manual containing all of
the register/parameter info?

Yep, sure did. Devoted an hour last night reading the 200 pages of
mostly well presented and detailed info, and much of the time was
spent shaking my head as to why Delta didn't utilize/allow to be
utilized more of it's inherent features. (i.e.: They've set P2-00~04
and/or P4-04~08 to ignore all of the Multi-Function Inputs.) Or why,
in spite of the harmonics present in the motor feed, they chose to run
the brake resistor wires parallel to and through the same grommet as
the motor supply wiring - which may be a source of erratic behavior.

Now I'm trying to figure out what I did with the old homebrew
RS-232/RS-485 interface converter. Apparently haven't used it since
December 17, 1987 - when it all became moot. It's probably ashes at
this point. Found a box of old Heathkit computer main boards I need
to toss, however. Now I get to paint siding. Big Sigh...


Greg G.

DGG wrote:


And that the replacement sells for $772.39 !!!


I am surprised they have the nerve to put a price on it. Considering the
fault could seriously injure somebody.

Your's will be under warranty won't it?

I recall you bought a display model. I guess it always worked properly
at the store.

John

Eddie Munster said:

DGG wrote:

And that the replacement sells for $772.39 !!!

I am surprised they have the nerve to put a price on it. Considering the
fault could seriously injure somebody.

I certainly don't mind them listing prices on their decidedly
unresponsive web site, my primary objection remains the excessive
markup. Especially when Powermatic sells their nearly identical VFD
for half the price. Which is what prompted me to explore who actually
manufactured the thing.

B&D management has apparently spent far too much time under the hot
sun while golfing Longboat Key. I fear they are now embracing the
modern era "screw everything that walks" business philosophy that is
making this country such a great place to live and work in these last
15 years. Pride, workmanship, and customer service have been
supplanted by avarice and exploitation. But that's just my opinion.

Your's will be under warranty won't it?

Yes, but... I'll apparently lose 3 months of it while it sits idle
waiting for the replacement. It _may_ not take that long. but I'm not
going to hold my breath. New management doesn't exactly impress.
Delta used to be pretty good with customer service, now it seems not
so much. I fear they are beginning to rival Stanley on my growing
"better off bankrupt" list of irresponsible US Corporations.

At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.
It is too intermittent and doesn't seem to be heat related, which
would be one of my first suspects for an intermittent condition, the
other being a cold solder joint. (Used to repair Paragon Industrial
controllers and Tektronix/Military test equipment.)

I recall you bought a display model. I guess it always worked properly
at the store.

They never powered it up - it is a 220vac unit and they don't have
outlets in the retail store. Mostly it sat around, shoved from one
spot to another and being cursed by the store manager. His parting
comment was, "Thanks for getting this thing out of here".
Leaves one with a rather disconcerted feeling, especially considering
that large, new empty spot in the wallet.

But I'm sure it will all work out in the end - one way or another.

FWIW

Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
all the way to Minnesota to get it.
your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?
So WMH is simply a company who puts their names on other peoples stuff?
I also have had problems with the quality of my 1014 out of the box, but
its been remedied. But it wasn't up to what I was told it would be
initially.
I'd give their customer service a 7.

Troy

DGG wrote:
Eddie Munster said:



I certainly don't mind them listing prices on their decidedly
unresponsive web site, my primary objection remains the excessive
markup. Especially when Powermatic sells their nearly identical VFD
for half the price. Which is what prompted me to explore who actually
manufactured the thing.

B&D management has apparently spent far too much time under the hot
sun while golfing Longboat Key. I fear they are now embracing the
modern era "screw everything that walks" business philosophy that is
making this country such a great place to live and work in these last
15 years. Pride, workmanship, and customer service have been
supplanted by avarice and exploitation. But that's just my opinion.



Yes, but... I'll apparently lose 3 months of it while it sits idle
waiting for the replacement. It _may_ not take that long. but I'm not
going to hold my breath. New management doesn't exactly impress.
Delta used to be pretty good with customer service, now it seems not
so much. I fear they are beginning to rival Stanley on my growing
"better off bankrupt" list of irresponsible US Corporations.

At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.
It is too intermittent and doesn't seem to be heat related, which
would be one of my first suspects for an intermittent condition, the
other being a cold solder joint. (Used to repair Paragon Industrial
controllers and Tektronix/Military test equipment.)



They never powered it up - it is a 220vac unit and they don't have
outlets in the retail store. Mostly it sat around, shoved from one
spot to another and being cursed by the store manager. His parting
comment was, "Thanks for getting this thing out of here".
Leaves one with a rather disconcerted feeling, especially considering
that large, new empty spot in the wallet.

But I'm sure it will all work out in the end - one way or another.

FWIW

Troy writes:

Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
all the way to Minnesota to get it.
your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?

I think he said that the VFD controller is from the same factory, and that
both Jet and Delta buy it from that factory.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

DGG wrote:


At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.


Is this something you can touch up? (shielding, ferrite beeds) If so you
got nothing to lose, if it doesn't work, put it back how it was.

Troy said:

Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
all the way to Minnesota to get it.
your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?

No, we are discussing the VFD - the electronic speed control module.
The same electronic controller is used on the Delta/PM/Jet lathes.
This doesn't apply to reeves drive lathes at all, and I believe yours
uses a mechanical speed control system.

So WMH is simply a company who puts their names on other peoples stuff?

Well, they sort of all do this. It's a long story...

I also have had problems with the quality of my 1014 out of the box, but
its been remedied. But it wasn't up to what I was told it would be
initially.
I'd give their customer service a 7.

Welcome to the new millennium. ;-)

mechanical? No, my speed is both electronically and mechanically variable.
I set the initial pulley size and then a pot controls the speed within
the set range from there.

Troy

DGG wrote:
Troy said:



No, we are discussing the VFD - the electronic speed control module.
The same electronic controller is used on the Delta/PM/Jet lathes.
This doesn't apply to reeves drive lathes at all, and I believe yours
uses a mechanical speed control system.



Well, they sort of all do this. It's a long story...



Welcome to the new millennium. ;-)

Eddie Munster said:

DGG wrote:

At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.

Is this something you can touch up? (shielding, ferrite beeds) If so you
got nothing to lose, if it doesn't work, put it back how it was.

I'm working towards that very idea. I'm going to monitor/capture any
hash on the lines with a scope to see what is there.

Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)

FWIW

"DGG" wrote in message
...
Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)


Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)

Troy said:

mechanical? No, my speed is both electronically and mechanically variable.
I set the initial pulley size and then a pot controls the speed within
the set range from there.

OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.

Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)

My bad...

George said:

"DGG" wrote:
Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)

Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of flying debris and metal
tools being a hazard than the piddling amounts of RF/EMI.

Never having used one, does this beat a Hameg? ;-)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc.../ScopeHell.JPG

FWIW

In rec.crafts.woodturning Troy wrote:
: Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
: all the way to Minnesota to get it.
: your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?


The original post was about a controller, but to partially answer your
broader question: sort of.

Most non-industrial woodworking machines made today, including
classical American companies like Delta, are made, or at least the heavier
metal parts are made, overseas. Taiwan is still the major
ocation, although mainland China and India are getting into the game.
(For an example of the latter, I bought one of the last pairs of cast-iron
legs for the Nova 3000 lathe to be imported into the US; they were
cast in India).

Individual companies specify what they want, and the factories give them
what they ask for. This includes design of the machines, but also
things like uniformity of the cast iron, tolerances in size, etc.

It's not a bad thing, necessarily; you pay a lot less than if
it were made in the US totally, is the argument.

-- Andy Barss

oh ok.. I was just wondering....
since your an et guy I've got a question for you. I've been wondering
how difficult/costly it would be to add a digital readout to the unit.
I realize this would have to be a interpolated reading since we're
varing the speed analog instead of digitally as you are using. And of
course what benefit would I truly gain other then it looks pretty. Yes
I have a degree in electronics but I'm rusty as heck. My degree was
focus'd more towards computer repair/engineering then the analog world,
and I never did quite get the analog down. My X was just the opposite.
She got the analog but never the digital... go figure.

Troy

DGG wrote:
Troy said:



OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.

Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)

My bad...

WOAH!... tetronix heaven!
Troy aka N6REJ


DGG wrote:
George said:



Well, I was thinking more along the lines of flying debris and metal
tools being a hazard than the piddling amounts of RF/EMI.

Never having used one, does this beat a Hameg? ;-)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc.../ScopeHell.JPG

FWIW

"DGG" wrote in message
...
George said:

"DGG" wrote:
Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)

Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of flying debris and metal
tools being a hazard than the piddling amounts of RF/EMI.

Never having used one, does this beat a Hameg? ;-)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc.../ScopeHell.JPG

FWIW

They all look alike to me. Having struggled with the old kind, I sure do
love the recording types!

There's a few types out there, being sold to the hobby machine
shop/hobby cnc people. Here's a link or two:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...ProductID=1684

http://cnc4pc.com/Index_Pulse_Card.htm

Jack


Troy wrote:
oh ok.. I was just wondering....
since your an et guy I've got a question for you. I've been wondering
how difficult/costly it would be to add a digital readout to the unit.
I realize this would have to be a interpolated reading since we're
varing the speed analog instead of digitally as you are using. And of
course what benefit would I truly gain other then it looks pretty. Yes
I have a degree in electronics but I'm rusty as heck. My degree was
focus'd more towards computer repair/engineering then the analog world,
and I never did quite get the analog down. My X was just the opposite.
She got the analog but never the digital... go figure.

Troy

DGG wrote:

Troy said:


OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.

Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)

My bad...

OOPS, On the 2nd link, that type is used on a cnc converted machine
using a computer for the readout.


Taunt wrote:
There's a few types out there, being sold to the hobby machine
shop/hobby cnc people. Here's a link or two:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...ProductID=1684

http://cnc4pc.com/Index_Pulse_Card.htm

Jack


Troy wrote:

oh ok.. I was just wondering....
since your an et guy I've got a question for you. I've been wondering
how difficult/costly it would be to add a digital readout to the
unit. I realize this would have to be a interpolated reading since
we're varing the speed analog instead of digitally as you are using.
And of course what benefit would I truly gain other then it looks
pretty. Yes I have a degree in electronics but I'm rusty as heck. My
degree was focus'd more towards computer repair/engineering then the
analog world, and I never did quite get the analog down. My X was
just the opposite. She got the analog but never the digital... go figure.

Troy

DGG wrote:

Troy said:


OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.

Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)

My bad...

interesting, thanks for the links.

Troy

Taunt wrote:
There's a few types out there, being sold to the hobby machine
shop/hobby cnc people. Here's a link or two:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...ProductID=1684

http://cnc4pc.com/Index_Pulse_Card.htm

Jack


Troy wrote:

Morris Dovey said:

DGG (in ) said:

| The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
| controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
| the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
....

It's an extremely capable and flexible controller. I have one driving
the spindle on my ShopBot. Did you get the manual containing all of
the register/parameter info?

As an update, couldn't find the old DIY interface card, so I drug out
the old IC data books and cobbled up a new one. Far fewer parts this
time around, due to the more modern ASIC's available. Gotta love that
misc. semiconductor junkbox that the ex-SWMBO wanted me to toss.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...5Interface.jpg

It took far longer to find the almost forgotten prototype stuff than
to build the RS232/RS485 interface. Granted, it's not destined for
retail distribution, but it satisfied my curiosity as to what's going
on in the controller. At least I now have a dump of the internal
register settings - few of which differ from the factory defaults.

Suddenly, a CNC lathe for turning segmented vessels is sounding like
an interesting (and complex) project. One hand turned original, and a
limited production run of signed, machine turned copies. That CNC
hollowing rig is sure to be a bear to design.

These damned evil computers are now invading the woodshop...
Is there no escape?!

FWIW

George said:

Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)

They all look alike to me. Having struggled with the old kind, I sure do
love the recording types!

Almost indispensable for digital work. Problem then becomes keeping
up with the constant need to upgrade to ever increasing sample rates.

Everything has become so intricate and specialized, it seems there is
little room for generalists these days - particularly those with low
thresholds for boredom, a desire for breadth, and an inherent mistrust
of all blustering authority.

FWIW

DGG said:

This post contains updates and corrections to information presented in
my original Delta 46-756 lathe review.

The VFD controller information, in particular, is relevant to
Powermatic and Jet EVS owners as well, since it turns out they all
come from the same factory as the Delta units. Primary differences
lie in the varying degrees of eloquence in implementing the units into
the final product.

Don't care? Don't own one? Stop here...
Otherwise, on with the show...

The original post discusses problems with runaway motor speed
and failure to remove motor drive when the stop button is pressed.
Additional info as follows.

These findings are applicable to all AC motor/VFD setups.
Additionally, I am now able to reproduce the fault at will.

The process of exploration reveals that the motor rotor is a rich
source of EMF which is induced by the harmonic rich pulses from the
VFD Drive. It seems to be aggravated by the 10kHz carrier rate
chosen. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that there is up to 45
volts of crap present on the rotor, and current up to .5 amps. The
unpowered-state resistance of the rotor to ground varies from 0 to 125
ohms. I would hazard a guess that bearing erosion or fluting is a
potential problem since the only path to ground for this potential
lies in the bearings themselves. A prudent consideration on any VFD
setup that does not use a specialty motor would be some sort of rotor
grounding mechanism. A graphite tipped grounding strap which rides on
the end of the rotor shaft, for instance; similar to almost every VCR
head drum motor ever built.

But this is not the only source of my immediate problem, however.
Apparently, the controller is working as advertised, but excessive
regeneration is causing the controller to hang in an infinite state of
overvolt protection while waiting for the DC Bus voltage to subside
before decelerating the motor. The feedback from the freewheeling
motor never subsides, so the controller just sits and waits. How do
you reduce regeneration? Well, one way is to apply a load - and sure
enough, placing heavy pressure on the handwheel causes the controller
to respond and continue on to decelerate the motor.

So, what is the cure? That's a tougher question, since any meaningful
changes would probably require rewriting register settings in the
controller and/or the addition of a zero phase reactor and/or shielded
motor feed wiring - which would most likely nullify their picky-ass
warranty. But since any number of replacement controllers are
probably going to respond in the same way, the fix is probably not as
straightforward as replacing a defective part. So we end up in a
Catch-22 situation that has probably resulted in loads of these lathes
being shipped back as terminally defective. And I'll be darned if I'm
waiting until January of next year for a part that probably won't fix
anything, or paying for the modifications out of pocket. I've got at
least two hours in the project already - not counting the interface
and VFD familiarization.

The thing that gets me, however, is that I bought a lathe to turn
wood, not to troubleshoot in lieu of the seemingly dysfunctional R&D
team at Block and Wrecker, or to sit for 3 months+ waiting on a fix.
This could get ugly... ;-)

Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?

I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.

John

The Visitor said:

Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?

I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.

Your controller sounds like the old Baldor unit. And from what I
understand, many had problems with it going into FAULT mode a lot.

The Delta.tw unit is totally digital and contains no potentiometers.
The accel/decel rates are set by writing to EEPROM registers through
an RS485 port. There are two groups of registers for fast and slow,
selectable by switch. However, mine is already set to slow.

But the problem is that it WON'T shut off the motor. I'd prefer a
coast down condition over a won't stop running situation any day.


nonsensical ramblings...
I do note that they have the Braking Resistor Threshold set at 380v
but the Over Volt Stall Threshold set to 370v. Normally the OVST
would be set a little higher than the BRT. The AVR is turned off
during decel as well. All three of these are potential suspects.

I'm guessing that if the BRT were set to 370 and the OVST were set to
380, all would be good in the universe as concerns the failure to
shutdown motor drive.

FWIW

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:42:31 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

Most non-industrial woodworking machines made today, including
classical American companies like Delta, are made, or at least the heavier
metal parts are made, overseas. Taiwan is still the major
ocation, although mainland China and India are getting into the game.
(For an example of the latter, I bought one of the last pairs of cast-iron
legs for the Nova 3000 lathe to be imported into the US; they were
cast in India).

Individual companies specify what they want, and the factories give them
what they ask for. This includes design of the machines, but also
things like uniformity of the cast iron, tolerances in size, etc.

It's not a bad thing, necessarily; you pay a lot less than if
it were made in the US totally, is the argument.

I don't know about that- we've all been getting a line of bs about the
"service industry" and "information economy" for a while now. Sure,
it might be cheaper for now- but if we keep sending everything away to
be made by cheap foreign labor for too long, there isn't going to be
enough equipment and know-how left in the US to make things we need
should it become necessary. Sure, there may still be plenty of
engineers- but they're not going to be out on a shop floor running
parts, and it takes time to train new operators. Especially if the
labor pool is made up of cooks, salesmen and office assistants. It's
getting bad enough that a lot of people can't even read a measuring
tape or rule- much less a caliper or a mic.

It's going to pinch us in the long run. No doubt we can rebuild the
factories, but that does take time. It's worthwhile to pay the extra
to preserve US manufacturing capability- and it's still true that you
get what you pay for. Every factory I've been in here has tolerances
and standards far tighter than the stuff I see on the shelves at the
WalMart.

Sure would be nice to see another *real* American tool company-
they're still around in the industrial market, but I'd love to have
the choice for my tools at home.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:27:10 -0400, wrote:

George said:

Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)

They all look alike to me. Having struggled with the old kind, I sure do
love the recording types!

Almost indispensable for digital work. Problem then becomes keeping
up with the constant need to upgrade to ever increasing sample rates.

Everything has become so intricate and specialized, it seems there is
little room for generalists these days - particularly those with low
thresholds for boredom, a desire for breadth, and an inherent mistrust
of all blustering authority.

I hear ya there. Gotta have a real big toolbox to be a floater in
today's world.

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:42:56 -0400, wrote:

The Visitor said:

Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?

I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.

Your controller sounds like the old Baldor unit. And from what I
understand, many had problems with it going into FAULT mode a lot.

The Delta.tw unit is totally digital and contains no potentiometers.
The accel/decel rates are set by writing to EEPROM registers through
an RS485 port. There are two groups of registers for fast and slow,
selectable by switch. However, mine is already set to slow.

But the problem is that it WON'T shut off the motor. I'd prefer a
coast down condition over a won't stop running situation any day.


nonsensical ramblings...
I do note that they have the Braking Resistor Threshold set at 380v
but the Over Volt Stall Threshold set to 370v. Normally the OVST
would be set a little higher than the BRT. The AVR is turned off
during decel as well. All three of these are potential suspects.

I'm guessing that if the BRT were set to 370 and the OVST were set to
380, all would be good in the universe as concerns the failure to
shutdown motor drive.

FWIW

Heh. Reading through this thread has made me truly appreciate my
second-hand reeve's drive Delta (even has a Made in USA tag). Had a
loose bolt on it once, but that was the extent of the trouble, and the
sucker is over twenty years old. No special tools or computers
required- a welcome change from the *ahem* real world.

Prometheus said:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:27:10 -0400, wrote:

Everything has become so intricate and specialized, it seems there is
little room for generalists these days - particularly those with low
thresholds for boredom, a desire for breadth, and an inherent mistrust
of all blustering authority.

I hear ya there. Gotta have a real big toolbox to be a floater in
today's world.

Hey, leave my toolbox outta this... ;-)


Greg G.

Prometheus said:

Heh. Reading through this thread has made me truly appreciate my
second-hand reeve's drive Delta (even has a Made in USA tag). Had a
loose bolt on it once, but that was the extent of the trouble, and the
sucker is over twenty years old. No special tools or computers
required- a welcome change from the *ahem* real world.

Spent months a couple of years ago looking for an older Unisaw.
Week after week I read gloats from guys who found 4-8 year old
Unisaws, complete with accessories, for $1200 - and less. Pennsylvania
in particular seems to have been lucrative for some.

Never came up with anything used here, however, and the local "used"
dealer wanted WAY too much for my tastes. So I bought new stuff.
Can't explain why, but people around here don't seem to have much
interest in anything done with their own two hands. Mostly corporate
fuel-screw types. Most of the "old-hands" either moved away or died
after I moved to Florida. And they apparently took their old US made
equipment with them.

I'm going to be buried with my collection of Chinese pot metal, a
testament to the changing times. Ahem, indeed.


Greg G.

wrote in news:f6kfi2pf83lgrf4qsd6k47fvblk5q2ls2v@
4ax.com:

The Visitor said:

Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?

I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.

Your controller sounds like the old Baldor unit. And from what I
understand, many had problems with it going into FAULT mode a lot.

The Delta.tw unit is totally digital and contains no potentiometers.
The accel/decel rates are set by writing to EEPROM registers through
an RS485 port. There are two groups of registers for fast and slow,
selectable by switch. However, mine is already set to slow.

But the problem is that it WON'T shut off the motor. I'd prefer a
coast down condition over a won't stop running situation any day.


nonsensical ramblings...
I do note that they have the Braking Resistor Threshold set at 380v
but the Over Volt Stall Threshold set to 370v. Normally the OVST
would be set a little higher than the BRT. The AVR is turned off
during decel as well. All three of these are potential suspects.

I'm guessing that if the BRT were set to 370 and the OVST were set to
380, all would be good in the universe as concerns the failure to
shutdown motor drive.

FWIW


So who makes the VFD for Delta/Jet et. al.?

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 00:08:28 -0400, Greg wrote:

Prometheus said:

Heh. Reading through this thread has made me truly appreciate my
second-hand reeve's drive Delta (even has a Made in USA tag). Had a
loose bolt on it once, but that was the extent of the trouble, and the
sucker is over twenty years old. No special tools or computers
required- a welcome change from the *ahem* real world.

Spent months a couple of years ago looking for an older Unisaw.
Week after week I read gloats from guys who found 4-8 year old
Unisaws, complete with accessories, for $1200 - and less. Pennsylvania
in particular seems to have been lucrative for some.

Never came up with anything used here, however, and the local "used"
dealer wanted WAY too much for my tastes. So I bought new stuff.
Can't explain why, but people around here don't seem to have much
interest in anything done with their own two hands. Mostly corporate
fuel-screw types. Most of the "old-hands" either moved away or died
after I moved to Florida. And they apparently took their old US made
equipment with them.

Yep, no luck with the saws around here either- I spot one every so
often hidden under a pile of boxes in someone's garage, but the story
is always that it was Grandpa's and has sentimental value. I always
suspected they just didn't want to bother with moving the boxes,
myself.

The lathe was a one-of-a-kind find, as a friend of mine had bought it
in the early eighties, used it in his shop for 20-odd years, and then
decided to move up to a Oneway. I happened to have just finished
helping him build his turnery, and got the right of first refusal from
him. Pretty good price, and it had been taken care of- ready to go
the day I got it, even had brand-new link belts.

I'm going to be buried with my collection of Chinese pot metal, a
testament to the changing times. Ahem, indeed.

I think one of these days, I'm just going to get fed up and start
making my own tools. A little engine lathe, a decent welder and some
negotiation for a little personal time on the equipment at work might
add up to a winning combination. Still have to buy the motors and
switches, but that seems like a minor problem at best- I'm continually
surprised that no one (that I know of) has started a little tool
factory in their garage to cater to discerning woodworkers yet.
Seems like an untapped market that gets a little bigger every year as
overall tool quality declines- though that may be just wishful
thinking.

R. Pierce Butler said:

So who makes the VFD for Delta/Jet et. al.?

As mentioned WAAYY up this thread, it is Delta Electronics of Taiwan.
No relation to Delta WW. I thought perhaps they were labeling their
own until the need revealed that it was an independant Asian company.

An industrial user relates his experience:
---------
I have a lot of experience with Delta drives.

We have a lab set-up where we did the Pepsi challenge with Delta
versus other drives. (The tester is a NEMA 4 cabinet with heaters and
a variac to raise the line voltage to over 500 vac to simulate NA
utility conditions. Externally it has a bonitron unit for braking,
marathon blackmax motors, and opposing drives which have torque
limiting to provide loads. It's a really interesting set-up needless
to say.)

We ran these drives at ~150*F at 520 vac for over a month. We ran them
loaded with an 5 sec accel and decel time. All the other drives
failed, these ones, we couldn't get to trip or fail.

It was a test to see how well they were made. The research that I
found, was that Delta is one of the biggest power supply mfg. in Asia.
We felt that if they make great power supplies then their drives would
be made just as well.

Inexpensive yes, Cheap no.

The problem with most Asian drives is that they are voltage intolerant
on the high end. In Japan for instance, the micro-drives are designed
for a 400 volt system. When they go to get UL listed, they have to
drop there high end to 460 instead of 480 to meet the requirements.
They can still be used with great success if the proper line reactor
or bucking transformer is used to stay under 460 +/- 10%.

The Delta's don't have this problem.

I'm not a salesman or rep...I have no real brand loyalty per say. Are
there drives out there that can do a better job with more bells and
whistles, sure. But I happen to agree with dpc. If they work for you,
then use them.

IMHO,
Carl
---------

FWIW

Prometheus said:

Greg G. wrote:
I'm going to be buried with my collection of Chinese pot metal, a
testament to the changing times. Ahem, indeed.

I think one of these days, I'm just going to get fed up and start
making my own tools. A little engine lathe, a decent welder and some
negotiation for a little personal time on the equipment at work might
add up to a winning combination. Still have to buy the motors and
switches, but that seems like a minor problem at best- I'm continually
surprised that no one (that I know of) has started a little tool
factory in their garage to cater to discerning woodworkers yet.
Seems like an untapped market that gets a little bigger every year as
overall tool quality declines- though that may be just wishful
thinking.

Sounds like the classic American dream, but current market conditions
would appear to make that problematic at best. Never worked up a
prospectus on such a thing, as I have neither the engineering talent
nor the funds for such an undertaking, but it would be an interesting
adventure. In today's mass produced, imported 50 cent an hour,
blister-packed culture, it would be difficult to compete in an already
competitive (and limited) market without some real innovation, quality
control, and marketing. But hey, some of those fancy planes they're
selling today are pretty high dollar.

Casting or forging steel and iron would be especially difficult in the
garage. But hey, they did it in Israel and Palestine in 1300 BC...
And that's probably the quality we're getting in our tools now. ;-)

And yes, I too wish for the space and bucks for some metalworking
equipment. Perhaps with winnings from the lottery I don't play.
But guess where a lot of that machinery comes from these days...


Greg G.

sticking my neck out a bit, as I recall a bit earlier in the thread the
problem lied with interference in the logic. could a Marconi shield be
easily manufactured to solve the problem?

Troy

Greg G. wrote:
Prometheus said:


Greg G. wrote:

I'm going to be buried with my collection of Chinese pot metal, a
testament to the changing times. Ahem, indeed.

I think one of these days, I'm just going to get fed up and start
making my own tools. A little engine lathe, a decent welder and some
negotiation for a little personal time on the equipment at work might
add up to a winning combination. Still have to buy the motors and
switches, but that seems like a minor problem at best- I'm continually
surprised that no one (that I know of) has started a little tool
factory in their garage to cater to discerning woodworkers yet.
Seems like an untapped market that gets a little bigger every year as
overall tool quality declines- though that may be just wishful
thinking.


Sounds like the classic American dream, but current market conditions
would appear to make that problematic at best. Never worked up a
prospectus on such a thing, as I have neither the engineering talent
nor the funds for such an undertaking, but it would be an interesting
adventure. In today's mass produced, imported 50 cent an hour,
blister-packed culture, it would be difficult to compete in an already
competitive (and limited) market without some real innovation, quality
control, and marketing. But hey, some of those fancy planes they're
selling today are pretty high dollar.

Casting or forging steel and iron would be especially difficult in the
garage. But hey, they did it in Israel and Palestine in 1300 BC...
And that's probably the quality we're getting in our tools now. ;-)

And yes, I too wish for the space and bucks for some metalworking
equipment. Perhaps with winnings from the lottery I don't play.
But guess where a lot of that machinery comes from these days...


Greg G.

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 10:38:42 -0400, Greg wrote:

Prometheus said:

Greg G. wrote:
I'm going to be buried with my collection of Chinese pot metal, a
testament to the changing times. Ahem, indeed.

I think one of these days, I'm just going to get fed up and start
making my own tools. A little engine lathe, a decent welder and some
negotiation for a little personal time on the equipment at work might
add up to a winning combination. Still have to buy the motors and
switches, but that seems like a minor problem at best- I'm continually
surprised that no one (that I know of) has started a little tool
factory in their garage to cater to discerning woodworkers yet.
Seems like an untapped market that gets a little bigger every year as
overall tool quality declines- though that may be just wishful
thinking.

Sounds like the classic American dream, but current market conditions
would appear to make that problematic at best. Never worked up a
prospectus on such a thing, as I have neither the engineering talent
nor the funds for such an undertaking, but it would be an interesting
adventure. In today's mass produced, imported 50 cent an hour,
blister-packed culture, it would be difficult to compete in an already
competitive (and limited) market without some real innovation, quality
control, and marketing. But hey, some of those fancy planes they're
selling today are pretty high dollar.

Casting or forging steel and iron would be especially difficult in the
garage. But hey, they did it in Israel and Palestine in 1300 BC...
And that's probably the quality we're getting in our tools now. ;-)

Casting Iron, yes- that's a problem. But maybe not too bad if you buy
thick sheets and grind them yourself. As far as forging steel goes, I
think I'd pass. What I've seen in some big industrial equipment is
more my speed- they cut several pieces from thick sheet goods, then
weld them together to make thicker parts. That's possible with a
cheap plasma cutter, and bound to be better than cast pot-metal.

Far as innovation goes, I think I'd pass- seems like there's a crying
need for some simple, well-built tools. I'd pay more for a simple saw
with good parts than I would for one with lasers and a plastic base.

But sadly, I believe you're right- it'd be awfully hard to make it pay
as a business venture. I was thinking more along the lines of a guy
making one at a time as orders came in, and selling them to interested
parties in his (or her) spare time. You don't get rich that way, you
just get the satisfaction of making good stuff.

And yes, I too wish for the space and bucks for some metalworking
equipment. Perhaps with winnings from the lottery I don't play.
But guess where a lot of that machinery comes from these days...

I've got the space in the garage, but not a lot of discretionary
income. I'll build a metal shop someday, but it'll be slow going like
the wood shop was.

Prometheus said:

Far as innovation goes, I think I'd pass- seems like there's a crying
need for some simple, well-built tools. I'd pay more for a simple saw
with good parts than I would for one with lasers and a plastic base.

Innovation doesn't necessarily translate into cheap gimmickry.
It can be a simpler or better way of accomplishing a goal.

I've got the space in the garage, but not a lot of discretionary
income. I'll build a metal shop someday, but it'll be slow going like
the wood shop was.

Same here - for the moment.


Greg G.

Prometheus wrote:
I'm continually
surprised that no one (that I know of) has started a little tool
factory in their garage to cater to discerning woodworkers yet.


Steve Knight comes to mind.

http://www.knight-toolworks.com/

DGG said:

This post contains updates and corrections to information presented in
my original Delta 46-756 lathe review.

Their computer shows the part it to be backordered till Jan 16, 2007.

Well, kudos to Delta/B&D for getting a replacement part shipped well
ahead of the computer projected date. Received it yesterday, and I am
now finishing up a large 13" Ash and Black Mesquite bowl.

I've been using a small 6" straight rest for bowl interiors on the Jet
Mini, and with a certain amount of adjustment, it works fine. But now
that I've progressed to larger diameters, it turns out that a straight
rest doesn't deal well with deeper bowl bottoms. Bought a Delta
46-404 "French Curl" tool rest, and consider it a bargain at $23.
Made in Taiwan, reasonably well finished, although the curves are not
quite what I expected. The acutely curved side works OK on interiors,
but the other side was probably designed to be used on bowl exteriors,
and due to the bulk and design of the rest, the angles are wrong for
interior work. And if the bowl were much deeper, it would be less
useful. I would have preferred two interior curls, one large, one
small, as I still use a straight rest on the exterior, but that's my
preference.

FWIW