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  #1   Report Post  
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Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

It looks like the Group has slowed down a bit so thought I would post my latest
test results of the Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood technique. There may be some who
feel this is a farce, but in the past I've had excellent results with it. My
latest test was on a piece of wet walnut tree root that was about 5 inches in
diameter. Because of its size, I turned an endgrain vase out of it. The rough
turned wall thickess was about 5/8". I soaked it in alcohol that we've used
several times before for 24 hours. I removed it from the alcohol and let it dry
off for a short while and then wrapped it in brown grocery sack on the outside
and top rim, leaving the inside open and upright. I weighed it as soon as it was
wrapped, here are the results:

At time of wrapping 5-4-06 Weight was 450 grams
The next morning 5-5-06 Weight was 400 grams
5-6-06 365 grams
5-7-06 320 grams
5-8-06 310 grams
5-9-06 265 grams
5-11-06 240 grams
5-13-06 200 grams
5-14-06 190 grams
5-15-06 190 grams

After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I
could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. There were no
cracks or checks. The piece has lost 58 percent of its original weight in ten
days setting in my shop. It was out of round by less that 1/16 inch. The wood
was very dry when turned.

I have no previous experience with walnut tree root, but these results fit
nicely with other tests that we've made. I've never known a soaking wet piece of
turned wood to dry completely in 10 days without some sort of help. I hope this
information will be of use to some of the people on this newsgroup. It will not
help the non-believers who will not give it a try or who have claimed to try it
and found it not to work. For the rest of you, I recommend you give it a try on
your next wet turned piece. We used Methel Alcohol, so don't drink the stuff!!

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com


--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

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Harry Pye
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Fred,

After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I
could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece.


Your results are very similar to mine. I've done about thirty small
bowls with the alcohol soaking method with excellent results. Except for
two ash blanks that took over three weeks to reach equilibrium, all the
others dried in two weeks or less.

Most of these bowls have been out-of-round. Enough that I had to true
the tenon before completing them. Most of the bowls have been either
English Walnut or Cherry though there were a couple birch, maple and oak.

Some people over analyze the process. To me it just plain works!

Harry
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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


"Harry Pye" wrote in message
groups.com...
Fred,

After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that
I
could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece.


Your results are very similar to mine. I've done about thirty small bowls
with the alcohol soaking method with excellent results. Except for two ash
blanks that took over three weeks to reach equilibrium, all the others
dried in two weeks or less.

Most of these bowls have been out-of-round. Enough that I had to true the
tenon before completing them. Most of the bowls have been either English
Walnut or Cherry though there were a couple birch, maple and oak.

Some people over analyze the process. To me it just plain works!


Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray
"Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet
under the sink?


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Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Well George, thank God that you weren't the judge when some of the great
discoveries of our time were being discussed, not on a newsgroup of course. It
never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so critical of a process that
works very well. It has even worked well on madrone for my wife and I. She
definitely doesn't wear and ionized braclet or use the dish detergent except to
wash dishes. I don't care if you ever take advantage of the alcohol drying
process (and hope you don't enjoy the benefits of it), but I hate to see you
debunk it and maybe keep others from trying it to get good results with their
wood drying.

Fred Holder
http://wwww.fholder.com

In article , George says...


"Harry Pye" wrote in message
sgroups.com...
Fred,

After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that
I
could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece.


Your results are very similar to mine. I've done about thirty small bowls
with the alcohol soaking method with excellent results. Except for two ash
blanks that took over three weeks to reach equilibrium, all the others
dried in two weeks or less.

Most of these bowls have been out-of-round. Enough that I had to true the
tenon before completing them. Most of the bowls have been either English
Walnut or Cherry though there were a couple birch, maple and oak.

Some people over analyze the process. To me it just plain works!


Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray
"Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet
under the sink?




--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

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Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Aw Fred, c;mon. You know, it's just George's way of letting us know
he's still around. As evidenced by his posting techniques, about the
only way he knows how to express himself is to crap on something.

I have seen a lot of evidence that this procedure works, although no
one seems to know why. I have emailed back and forth with different
individuals that are like you and I, ones that do not care "why" but
only use the method as a means to an end. Some swear by it, others
have had different levels of success.

You know the longtime friend of this NG, Leif, swears by the LDD method
and it works well for him. Others have found that protcol successful,
moderately successful, and not successful at all. I think it is the
same for he alcohol method. I was glad you took the time, made the
effort and then went a step farther and shared with all of us.

I would be willing to bet that George has not tried the alcohol method,
but even if he did, it is a shame that a grown man (at least I am
assuming this... maybe not) replies to someone simply sharing
information backed by his careful fact gathering by sarcastic, snotty
opinion. It is often the response of the small mind to make fun of
something they don't understand or are unfamiliar with. But at the
very least, lack of understanding, unfamiliarity, or any other reason
doesn't excuse that kind arrogant, sarcastic remark to someone that is
simply trying to share.

I know this is the kind of horsecrap that ran you off for a long time,
as well as many others. All I can say Fred, is don't go away because
of some of jerks that post here. It is a public forum, and like the
members of the flat earth society (you cannot prove the earth is round
to their satisfaction, nor can you prove we ever went to the moon) they
have a right to their opinion. They are one dimensinal thinkers. If
they haven't experienced "it" themselves in some way, it may not exist
at all.

George is "one of those". He posts very pleasant threads when he is
trolling for compliments on something he has done, or if he agrees with
you, or understands what you are saying. The rest of the time, it's...
well... George. He is no different on the other NGs on which he
participates. The people here are just nicer and more tolerant of his
behavior.

I live this quote, but don't know who said it. It may have been the
"anti George":

"Brave he be, who first tasteth the oyster"

How would you have liked to try to convince your friends you could
actually eat those things raw? Now to me, that's REAL uncharted
territory.

Thanks for the post.

Robert



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robo hippy
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

I am still experimenting with the various drying methods, and for the
way I do things I don't notice a whole lot of difference.

At first, I would just turn to about 1/4 to 3/8 thick (wet wood), in
sizes from 16 inches diameter to 3 inches diameter, and put the bowls
on a shelf and let them dry. While I never weighed them, they would be
mostly dry in 2 weeks or less: say about 98% of all movement had
ceased, they were dry enough to sand easily (no loading of the
sandpaper), and didn't feel cool to the touch.

The same seems to hold true for the alcohol bath and LDD methods. I
have never bagged a bowl blank. I have had about the same amount of
cracking with all methods. Most of the cracks coming from cracks in the
wood that I didn't cut out, some knots, and some crotch wood. I left
pieces to soak for 24 hours to a month, and got the same results. I
haven't noticed that any of the methods had any effect on movement,
especially on the Madrone.

I was at a demo at Dale Larsons place and the topic of the alcohol
soaking came up, and there was a chorus responce about alcohol soaking
hardens the wood. I had thought to myself that I had noticed how hard
some of them were to sand before I heard that.

The biggest difference that the LDD soak makes is in sanding. I don't
leave my blanks thick, and then return them, I turn to finish
thickness, and then sand. When sanding any of the LDD bowls, the dust
comes off like big wet snow flakes, rather than fine powder. It does
take about 2 plus weeks for the fragrences in the LDD to go away, but
that is minor.

The last batch that I soaked, I added the last 3 gallons of my left
over alcohol to the LDD mix (10 plus gallons). The biggest difference
that I noticed was that it thinned down the solution so that the mix
dripped off a lot faster when removed from the tub. They sanded out
nicely.

Some time in the future, I will take a bunch of bowl blanks of Madrone
(the most difficult wood I have found to dry), from the same tree,
make them as identical as possible, and try all of the methods, and be
a bit scientific about it all. My curiosity is demanding it of me just
to see what and how much difference there really is.

As far as how it works, I have talked to a number of people about this.
Most recently at my last show. As near as I can tell, alcohol and
glycerine (in the soap) act in similar ways to reduce the surface
tension in the water which allows the water to move out easier. Or
something like that. I don't really care about how it works, just the
end results.

To be continued......

robo hippy

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Dave Leader
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood - offline response

I apologise for the off-line response, but I don't post to the USENET
any more. The tenor has changed, and I'm not interested in flame wars.

robo hippy wrote:
snip
At first, I would just turn to about 1/4 to 3/8 thick (wet wood), in
sizes from 16 inches diameter to 3 inches diameter, and put the bowls
on a shelf and let them dry. While I never weighed them, they would be
mostly dry in 2 weeks or less: say about 98% of all movement had
ceased, they were dry enough to sand easily (no loading of the
sandpaper), and didn't feel cool to the touch.


The same seems to hold true for the alcohol bath and LDD methods. I
have never bagged a bowl blank. I have had about the same amount of
cracking with all methods. Most of the cracks coming from cracks in the
wood that I didn't cut out, some knots, and some crotch wood. I left
pieces to soak for 24 hours to a month, and got the same results. I
haven't noticed that any of the methods had any effect on movement,
especially on the Madrone.

snip
The biggest difference that the LDD soak makes is in sanding. I don't
leave my blanks thick, and then return them, I turn to finish
thickness, and then sand. When sanding any of the LDD bowls, the dust
comes off like big wet snow flakes, rather than fine powder. It does
take about 2 plus weeks for the fragrences in the LDD to go away, but
that is minor.


The last batch that I soaked, I added the last 3 gallons of my left
over alcohol to the LDD mix (10 plus gallons). The biggest difference
that I noticed was that it thinned down the solution so that the mix
dripped off a lot faster when removed from the tub. They sanded out
nicely.

snip

While I wouldn't presume to question a turner as experienced as you are,
I'm curious about one aspect of your LDD use. When I use it, I turn to
final thickeness and then finish immediately. I don't allow the wood to
dry before I finish it. Is that what you are doing, or are you drying it
before finishing? I ask because I haven't had very many bowls crack,
some warped, but cracks were very rare.

Dave Leader
--
Volunteer at Cluade Moore Colonial Farm (National Park)
http://www.1771.org
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.patinatools.org
M-WTCA - Mid-West Tool Collectors Assoc
http://www.mwtca.org/
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Owen Lowe
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

In article ,
Fred Holder wrote:

At time of wrapping 5-4-06 Weight was 450 grams
The next morning 5-5-06 Weight was 400 grams
5-6-06 365 grams
5-7-06 320 grams
5-8-06 310 grams
5-9-06 265 grams
5-11-06 240 grams
5-13-06 200 grams
5-14-06 190 grams
5-15-06 190 grams

After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I
could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. There were no
cracks or checks. The piece has lost 58 percent of its original weight in ten
days setting in my shop. It was out of round by less that 1/16 inch. The wood
was very dry when turned.


Hi Fred. After the last discussion on alcohol, I contacted Dave Smith to
get permission to run his article in our chapter newsletter. Several
members approached me telling me it really does work for them. I've not
tried it yet, but plan to give it a go today if I remember to hit the
local hardware for some alcohol.

What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above
would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped
forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping
and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go
myself, but I don't have a scale...

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.
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robo hippy
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood - offline response

Dave,
I haven't tried to sand and finish the bowl as soon as it comes out of
the LDD solution. I would guess that one reason for doing this would be
that by putting the finish on you would slow down the drying rate, and
keeping the wood moist with finish. Both of these would aid in the slow
controlled dry = less cracks method. One reason that I don't do this is
that I turn a lot of bowls first, and then sand them all at once. I
have a big sanding hood that I use that I can't turn inside of, so has
to come off and on between turning and sanding. Another is that I think
(haven't tried so it isn't proven to me) I would have to spend more
time with the cleaning stick on the sand paper that I would if it is
dry wood. Another is that I would worry about sealing the soap
fragrance in the bowl, which I would not like. Some woods like blm (big
leaf maple) which are starting to rot smell sour. They have to dry
totally to get the sour smell out. Now I guess that I will have to try
sanding and finishing a wet bowl some time.
Don't worry about questioning me about anything, I do it to myself all
of the time, and am always experimenting. After all, that is how we all
learn.
robo hippy

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Harry Pye
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

George,

Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray
"Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet
under the sink?


My mother taught me that if I couldn't say anything nice, not to say
anything at all. Also there is an old saying, "It is better to keep
quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

You may want to think about these things.


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Arch
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood1 (dry & long)

Hi Fred, Thanks for sharing your success with us. I don't know or care
how much of woodturning is art and how much is craft, but for me it's
sure not science and I don't care. Well actually I do care a little,
I'm glad it's not science because whatever facet of the endeavor I am
involved in at the time, I don't want to burden my efforts and fun with
too much deductive or inductive reasoning or data gathering. I think
it's the same for most of us whether we turn as a business, a hobby or
more often both.

When a drying method works to the satisfaction of a woodturner I think
there is merit in it. Whether the satisfaction is due to scientific
proof, placebo effect, herd instinct, appeal to authority or a
visitation from the Almighty the method is valid for the believer so why
should he care what disbelievers think. Although I may not believe, I
know I can't disprove a positive with a negative, so I'm always glad to
hear about someone's success.

Several methods for drying wood are satisfactory for somebody, but not
for everybody. Usually when several techniques are in use, there is no
one best technique. Boiling, LDD, alcohol, waxing, thinning & bagging
all work for many of us and I have no trouble in believing in the merits
of each. The option is mine, but I seldom choose to use any one of them,
not because I 'know' it won't work, but simply because it is usually too
much trouble. I rely on the kindness of mother nature. She will always
take back some of her timber, but then I will always have wood to burn.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

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Dan Bollinger
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Fred, here is what the FPL says, thought it would add to the discussion:

Solvent Seasoning

The solvent seasoning process involves subjecting the wood

to a spray or continuous immersion in either hot acetone or a

similar solvent miscible with water for a number of hours

until most of the water is extracted from the wood. The

solvent is removed by steaming or with a vacuum. Additional

water is removed at the same time.

Although solvent seasoning has not been applied to eastern

U. S. hardwoods, extensive research has been done in California

on using this method to dry tanoak sapwood. For 4/4

lumber, drying time is as short as 30 h. A few pieces of

lumber have suffered streaks of collapse, probably because

of the presence of heartwood or bacterial infection.



Dan



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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
Well George, thank God that you weren't the judge when some of the great
discoveries of our time were being discussed, not on a newsgroup of
course. It
never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so critical of a process
that
works very well. It has even worked well on madrone for my wife and I. She
definitely doesn't wear and ionized braclet or use the dish detergent
except to
wash dishes. I don't care if you ever take advantage of the alcohol drying
process (and hope you don't enjoy the benefits of it), but I hate to see
you
debunk it and maybe keep others from trying it to get good results with
their
wood drying.


Well, I have to say the scientific method employed seems a bit dubious,
Fred.

I was, however able to duplicate your results yesterday.

Took a plate of wet dirt - it's been raining, and carefully monitored and
recorded the data so I could look like _I_ knew something too.

0800 145 grams
1000 138 grams
1200 124 grams
1400 116 grams
1600 114 grams

Stable thereafter. So, based on your experimental results and mine, I'll
have to concede that if you put something wet where air can get to it, it'll
lose weight, and it seems to be from loss of moisture.

Ran a parallel experiment to document whether or not this was the case. Put
the dogs' dish on the counter out of reach and measured an 18mm depth of
water at 0800 , and 17mm at 1800 when the dirt was stable. Couldn't have
lost anything but water, so I consider that it might have been the case with
the dirt.

Since I formed the wet dirt on to the bottom of a paper plate, I have to say
that, subjectively at least, there seemed to be little distortion during the
process.


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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


wrote in message
oups.com...
Aw Fred, c;mon. You know, it's just George's way of letting us know
he's still around. As evidenced by his posting techniques, about the
only way he knows how to express himself is to crap on something.



I see, you like "me too" posts. See the one I just sent.




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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news

What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above
would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped
forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping
and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go
myself, but I don't have a scale...


As I have said before, I have done exactly that, with successive cubes from
1x1 cuts, to make distortion measurement easy and valid. The answer is the
one I keep giving. Not only is there no scientific validity to the
assertions made by proponents - the speculative mechanisms violate known
scientific laws - it makes no difference whether the piece is soaked or not.
I keep suggesting that Fred take up the challenge and do it for himself, and
instead we see what he posted yesterday, a documentation of evaporation.

Note that the piece is protected from rapid loss by control of relative
humidity, a method which has been used to control loss from drying wood for
as long as man has cut it, and you find the real answer. Just as the LDD
types who turn thin and experience little failure. If you turn thin, you
won't, unless you throw the thing out into the desert, or an air-conditioned
home, which is about the same.





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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


"Harry Pye" wrote in message
groups.com...
George,

Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray
"Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet
under the sink?


My mother taught me that if I couldn't say anything nice, not to say
anything at all. Also there is an old saying, "It is better to keep quiet
and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

You may want to think about these things.


I was answering one.


  #18   Report Post  
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TonyM
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

GEORGE HAS SPOKEN!

no need to carry on this thread or method of drying

Tony Manella
ndd1"at"ptd.net (remove "at")

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news

What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above
would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped
forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping
and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go
myself, but I don't have a scale...


As I have said before, I have done exactly that, with successive cubes
from 1x1 cuts, to make distortion measurement easy and valid. The answer
is the one I keep giving. Not only is there no scientific validity to the
assertions made by proponents - the speculative mechanisms violate known
scientific laws - it makes no difference whether the piece is soaked or
not. I keep suggesting that Fred take up the challenge and do it for
himself, and instead we see what he posted yesterday, a documentation of
evaporation.

Note that the piece is protected from rapid loss by control of relative
humidity, a method which has been used to control loss from drying wood
for as long as man has cut it, and you find the real answer. Just as the
LDD types who turn thin and experience little failure. If you turn thin,
you won't, unless you throw the thing out into the desert, or an
air-conditioned home, which is about the same.







  #19   Report Post  
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Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

I agree. I'm sorry that I posted the information to arouse the God of Drying,
but I hope my mis-information may still help some poor uninformed soul who isn't
biased by science.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article , atsymbol says...

GEORGE HAS SPOKEN!

no need to carry on this thread or method of drying

Tony Manella
ndd1"at"ptd.net (remove "at")

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news

What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above
would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped
forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping
and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go
myself, but I don't have a scale...


As I have said before, I have done exactly that, with successive cubes
from 1x1 cuts, to make distortion measurement easy and valid. The answer
is the one I keep giving. Not only is there no scientific validity to the
assertions made by proponents - the speculative mechanisms violate known
scientific laws - it makes no difference whether the piece is soaked or
not. I keep suggesting that Fred take up the challenge and do it for
himself, and instead we see what he posted yesterday, a documentation of
evaporation.

Note that the piece is protected from rapid loss by control of relative
humidity, a method which has been used to control loss from drying wood
for as long as man has cut it, and you find the real answer. Just as the
LDD types who turn thin and experience little failure. If you turn thin,
you won't, unless you throw the thing out into the desert, or an
air-conditioned home, which is about the same.









--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

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Kevin
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


(Tongue planted firmly in cheek)
Now Fred, you do realize that true 'scientfic method' would involve using 1"
cubes for the test as opposed to something that will actually be turned or
has been turned? The size makes it so much easier to measure distortion and
actual weight loss or gain. Besides, as so many of us use 1" cubes in our
work, the results will be applicable to a much wider range of possibilities.
What good is possibly gained by using an actual turned object?
Further, a true 'scientfic method' would involve taking measurements of the
surrounding environment (tempertarure, change in temperature, rate of change
in tempertature, relative humidity (as well as any changes thay may occur),
air flow, etc...) The measurements could then be input into a stats package
(SAS, Statistica, Stata, SPSS, S-Plus) and regressions run to determine the
coefficients (not paramters here as we are dealing only with samples and not
populations.) With the time data (discrete measurements over equally spaced
periods) included (rate of change in temp, humidity, air flow of
environment) we are now blessed with the possibility of using time series
procedures whereby we can determine if our model is more of an MA (Moving
Average) or an AR (Auto Regressive) or, perhaps, an ARIMA (AutoRegrssive
Integrated Moving Average). We may of course wish to subject our (not too
patient by now readers) to ARCH, CATS, and GARCH modeling procedures. But
we will leave such discussions for a more opportune time & place.
If we wish to include the actual species of wood in our experiment, we can
then run ANOVA (Analysis of Variance) or MANOVA (Multiple Analysis of
Variance) models and check for any statistically significant differences
either within or between groups which in turn will help us in determining
which species of wood, if any, is more susceptible to our alcohol-based
drying method. As with a true 'scientific method' we would want to include
measurements at various times so as to enable the employment of, at a
minumum tw-way AMOVA or MANOVA modeling techniques. Of course with the
inclusion of categorical data (wood species) and ANOVA modeling, the results
will not be quite as robust as the regression analysis.
I am sure there are other 'scientific methods' that can be gainfully
employed with the end result of sucking all of the joy, happiness, sense of
accomplishment, and just plain fun out of woodturning, but being just a
simple statistician I will leave them to others to outline. Such sucking
seems to be the sine qua non of some on this group.
(Tongue removed from cheek)

Thanks for the info. It works for you. If it works for others so much the
better.


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
It looks like the Group has slowed down a bit so thought I would post my

latest
test results of the Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood technique. There may be

some who
feel this is a farce, but in the past I've had excellent results with it.

My
latest test was on a piece of wet walnut tree root that was about 5 inches

in
diameter. Because of its size, I turned an endgrain vase out of it. The

rough
turned wall thickess was about 5/8". I soaked it in alcohol that we've

used
several times before for 24 hours. I removed it from the alcohol and let

it dry
off for a short while and then wrapped it in brown grocery sack on the

outside
and top rim, leaving the inside open and upright. I weighed it as soon as

it was
wrapped, here are the results:

At time of wrapping 5-4-06 Weight was 450 grams
The next morning 5-5-06 Weight was 400 grams
5-6-06 365 grams
5-7-06 320 grams
5-8-06 310 grams
5-9-06 265 grams
5-11-06 240 grams
5-13-06 200 grams
5-14-06 190 grams
5-15-06 190 grams

After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that

I
could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. There were no
cracks or checks. The piece has lost 58 percent of its original weight in

ten
days setting in my shop. It was out of round by less that 1/16 inch. The

wood
was very dry when turned.

I have no previous experience with walnut tree root, but these results fit
nicely with other tests that we've made. I've never known a soaking wet

piece of
turned wood to dry completely in 10 days without some sort of help. I hope

this
information will be of use to some of the people on this newsgroup. It

will not
help the non-believers who will not give it a try or who have claimed to

try it
and found it not to work. For the rest of you, I recommend you give it a

try on
your next wet turned piece. We used Methel Alcohol, so don't drink the

stuff!!

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com


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  #21   Report Post  
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Lobby Dosser
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

"Kevin" wrote:

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek)


You forgot the laminar flow analysis.
  #22   Report Post  
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robo hippy
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

With all of the George bashing that has been going on, did anyone
notice that in my post, that with all of the experimenting that I have
done, that I haven't noticed any real difference in the drying methods?
I am not saying that it, or any of the other methods don't word, I am
saying that I can't tell any real difference. Some day I will have to
do a more scientific testing.
robo hippy

  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

I just started a new test with the walnut root, except I cut the root in half
and turned two small bowls with 1/2" wall thicknesses. I soaked one in alcohol
for two hours and the other one I simply wrapped the outside with paper. Both
are wrapped in paper with the inside of the bowl open to the air. The wood was
extremely wet. I'll weigh them each day until they quit losing weight and then
will report back with my findings. Their initial weight, weighed at the same
time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl.
Incidentally, I noticed that you said you didn't notice any difference in drying
with any of the various methods and that is why I decided to make a comparison
test. I personally believe that the wood soaked in alcohol dries more quickly
than wood that has not been soaked, maybe my test will show that I'm wrong or
hopefully it will show that myself and a lot of other people are right about the
alcohol soak. In any case, I'll report my findings in a week or two. You'll note
that I'm using bowls for my test and not 1" cubes.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article .com, robo hippy
says...

With all of the George bashing that has been going on, did anyone
notice that in my post, that with all of the experimenting that I have
done, that I haven't noticed any real difference in the drying methods?
I am not saying that it, or any of the other methods don't word, I am
saying that I can't tell any real difference. Some day I will have to
do a more scientific testing.
robo hippy



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  #24   Report Post  
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robo hippy
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Might have to start another thread for that one Fred, I should be
turning next week, and will see if I can do the same thing with the
LDD.
robo hippy

  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
Dan Bollinger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

I just started a new test with the walnut root, except I cut the root in half
and turned two small bowls with 1/2" wall thicknesses. I soaked one in alcohol
for two hours and the other one I simply wrapped the outside with paper. Both
are wrapped in paper with the inside of the bowl open to the air. The wood was
extremely wet. I'll weigh them each day until they quit losing weight and then
will report back with my findings. Their initial weight, weighed at the same
time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl.
Incidentally, I noticed that you said you didn't notice any difference in
drying
with any of the various methods and that is why I decided to make a comparison
test. I personally believe that the wood soaked in alcohol dries more quickly
than wood that has not been soaked, maybe my test will show that I'm wrong or
hopefully it will show that myself and a lot of other people are right about
the
alcohol soak. In any case, I'll report my findings in a week or two. You'll
note
that I'm using bowls for my test and not 1" cubes.


Fred, The folks at Forest Product Labs expect you to find a difference. At
least that's what I got form the excerpt I posted, that solvent drying is a
valid procedure.

Dan



  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

A 14 hour period is not much of a test, but between 5:00 pm yesterday and 7:00
am this morning the alcohol soaked bowl lost 25 grams and the unsoaked bowl lost
10 grams. This is the first time that I've checked two identical pieces (i.e.,
same wood) at the same time.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article , Dan Bollinger
says...

I just started a new test with the walnut root, except I cut the root in half
and turned two small bowls with 1/2" wall thicknesses. I soaked one in alcohol
for two hours and the other one I simply wrapped the outside with paper. Both
are wrapped in paper with the inside of the bowl open to the air. The wood was
extremely wet. I'll weigh them each day until they quit losing weight and then
will report back with my findings. Their initial weight, weighed at the same
time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl.
Incidentally, I noticed that you said you didn't notice any difference in
drying
with any of the various methods and that is why I decided to make a comparison
test. I personally believe that the wood soaked in alcohol dries more quickly
than wood that has not been soaked, maybe my test will show that I'm wrong or
hopefully it will show that myself and a lot of other people are right about
the
alcohol soak. In any case, I'll report my findings in a week or two. You'll
note
that I'm using bowls for my test and not 1" cubes.


Fred, The folks at Forest Product Labs expect you to find a difference. At
least that's what I got form the excerpt I posted, that solvent drying is a
valid procedure.

Dan



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  #27   Report Post  
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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood


"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
With all of the George bashing that has been going on, did anyone
notice that in my post, that with all of the experimenting that I have
done, that I haven't noticed any real difference in the drying methods?
I am not saying that it, or any of the other methods don't word, I am
saying that I can't tell any real difference. Some day I will have to
do a more scientific testing.


Yes indeed. As you might have noticed elsewhere, people who are not
intimidated by the alcohol "tailors" into holding their tongue in the
presence of the emperor are having similar problems. You must use good
procedure for good results, none of which has anything to do with ethanol.

My spouse, bless her soul, is fond of answering the question of "how's
George?" with another question.

"Compared to what?"

So, here's a comparison to help answer the question as to whether there's
anything remarkable in the decidedly skimpy "data" provided as conclusive
evidence at the beginning of this thread.

My neighbor felled a cherry tree on the weekend of the eighth of April of
this year. It had not yet come into bud, so it was certainly low in unbound
moisture. We hauled it to my place the following Thursday, April 13, and I
began turning from it that weekend. Yesterday, after posting my
confirmation of evaporation data, and before the 911 difficulties began an
afternoon and evening of festivities, I went over to the shelf where a
half-dozen early pieces made of that wood were stored.

Pieces were roughed between 1"and 1 1/8" thick to allow for a bit of design
change later as desired, placed on the table in a shop with 65% day, much
lower during the heated night relative humidity until no dark spots from
centrifugally expressed moisture were visible, then stored under the drill
press near the floor. Locating closer to the floor gives an additional 10%
RH, on average, bit more when heated air is dumped from above. I'm in no
rush to dry them.

They were moved to their present location 3 feet off the floor and out of
the shop so the Son-in-Law and I could make all the %$#@&!! mortises for
slats in the king-size mission bed my daughter wants on the 5th of May,
where relative humidities are in the high 60s or even higher still (75-80)
the last ten rainy days.

How have they fared? Average of 16% at the moment, measured at the worst
place, the bottoms they're resting on. This compared to the best case EMC
of 14.3 for 75% and 65 degrees - the current averages. Had they been
thinner, of course, they'd be as dry as they can get in this humidity, since
doubling the thickness triples the dry time. They'll be final turned at
9-10%, for 50% RH/70 degrees when the dehumidifier comes on line if I need
their variety and size for late summer shows, or in the fall.

As to distortion, it's safe to say that this is as poorly understood as
chemistry among some. Anyone who studies wood knows that distortion is
related to the interval, orientation and curvature of the annual rings, and
the relative density of the early and late wood. This tree grew pretty
evenly, with an average of more than an eighth of an inch between rings, and
the pieces were cut on average an inch from the center, making the shortest
radius ring about 3/4 to 1". Anticipated diameter loss in a cherry bowl
at 10% EMC , 12-15" in diameter and this ring interval/orientation seems to
range from 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch exclusive of rim drop. These fit in
nicely, with the worst and largest at nearly 3/8.

Liquid solvent dehydration processes, as I have referenced, are performed by
dilution, the same way at least Arch can remember dehydrating samples in
Histology lab. The dilute solution is removed and freshened after each soak
in successive operations until the desired concentration is obtained. The
dehydrated material must then be dried, of course! The magic of alcohol
seems to be that it, as the bush on Sinai, burns yet is not consumed.
Chemical reactions deplete the reagent(s), replacement dilutes the solvent,
which is why it is removed and replaced with fresh to get to the desired
concentration. See any of that in the alcohol process? Must be obeying
some law other than the known laws of chemistry to work.

"But - but - but, doesn't the alcohol, with its higher vapor pressure (lower
boiling point) evaporate faster than water?" Sure, but it doesn't dry the
piece any faster unless you've done the dilutions. You can't have it both
ways and say that the alcohol speeds the evaporation of water in a
short-soak piece. If you distill alcohol from aqueous solution to get to
your 95% azeotrope by using Raoult's law, you can't simply repeal it for the
evaporation stage to make your theory work.

Which it doesn't. Keep an eye on the relative humidity. You can do as I
and leave it open for the air to dilute the water, or protect the wood from
too great a surface/interior gradient by bagging, wrapping, coating, or
containing. They're all doing the same thing. Which is why they all work,
and have since records have been kept and before. It's also why the
alcohol "works" - because the water molecules are continually washed away by
the surrounding air. It's the dilution you didn't do.

On the subject of weight. Was roughing a piece from near the end of a
year-old maple log and noticed how light it felt compared to one I had
roughed 40 inches into the same log two days prior, of similar thickness and
shape. Piece from just inside the end checks weighed 2155 grams, while the
other, which was just barely losing the shadow of unbound surface moisture
tilted the scale by weighing more than 3 kilos. The real fun was in the
difference between the wet and dry ends of the piece I turned. If I had
whipped the speed up on the lathe, that sucker would have wobbled and flown.
More than one way to get a piece out of balance.


  #28   Report Post  
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Harry Pye
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Fred,

A 14 hour period is not much of a test, but between 5:00 pm yesterday and 7:00
am this morning the alcohol soaked bowl lost 25 grams and the unsoaked bowl lost
10 grams. This is the first time that I've checked two identical pieces (i.e.,
same wood) at the same time.


I have noted this in every bowl I've dried using the alcohol method. I
believe it is due to much of the alcohol evaporating. I chart the drying
progress of each bowl done this way. In addition, I weigh the bowl
before immersing it in alcohol.

Try weighing the bowls every day at roughly the same time. I usually
consider the bowl dry enough when I get the same reading on three
consecutive days. (Using a postal scale that measures to 0.1 ounce.)

Please keep us posted on the progress.
  #29   Report Post  
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Dan Bollinger
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

My spouse, bless her soul, is fond of answering the question of "how's
George?" with another question.

"Compared to what?"


Next time, correct her with "Compared to whom?"
  #30   Report Post  
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Derek Andrews
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

Fred Holder wrote:
Their initial weight, weighed at the same
time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl.


Was that before or after the alcohol soak?

What might be interesting to note is the weight of the bowl before and
after the soak, and the weight of the tub of alcohol before and after.
Or a chemical analysis of the alcohol to see how much water it gains
during the soak.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners










  #31   Report Post  
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Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

The weight was after the alcohol soak. I never thought to weigh it before.
However, before the paper and tape would not have been installed so the weight
would have been different anyway. I'm not running a scientific laboratory so did
not bother with weighing the alcohol before and after. I was interested in a
comparison of a soaked bowl to an unsoaked bowl with both treated the same
otherwise. Actually, I don't even need to prove this to myself. I know that it
works, reguardless of whether George or anyone else says that it can't work. I'm
doing the test for the people who might wish to use the process, not to prove
anything to myself.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article , Derek Andrews
says...

Fred Holder wrote:
Their initial weight, weighed at the same
time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl.


Was that before or after the alcohol soak?

What might be interesting to note is the weight of the bowl before and
after the soak, and the weight of the tub of alcohol before and after.
Or a chemical analysis of the alcohol to see how much water it gains
during the soak.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners










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  #32   Report Post  
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Tom Nie
 
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Default Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood

And, Fred, the effort and sharing is appreciated.

When dealing with George's data you might try the parallel experiment that
Arch has just documented .

TomNie

I'm
doing the test for the people who might wish to use the process, not to
prove
anything to myself.



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