Greetings,

Curmudgeon would appreciate assistance in turning small details.
This is more new ground for me.

Taking a vessel such as this, the areas of concern are marked in blue:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...es/Vessel1.gif

What tools do you use to turn the rolled lip and beaded base details?
These are 1/4" ID or so.

The shops I have looked at don't sell many tools this small, but I
have a 1/4" round section gouge. Used as a scraper, it's shaft tends
to chatter. Used as a gouge, it's very grabby. I ground the ears
back to give it more of a fingernail shape, but it's still difficult
to use without tear-out and catching. I think I need to reduce the
bevel angle as well.

And with the plate I last made, the bottom of the plate's body gets in
the way of using a skew from one direction - so it seems impossible to
use a skew to cut a 1/4" inverted round at the point between the body
and the foot. Tear-out was also a problem with the wood used and at
the angles I was able to approach it.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Greetings,

Curmudgeon would appreciate assistance in turning small details.
This is more new ground for me.

Taking a vessel such as this, the areas of concern are marked in blue:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...es/Vessel1.gif

What tools do you use to turn the rolled lip and beaded base details?
These are 1/4" ID or so.

The shops I have looked at don't sell many tools this small, but I
have a 1/4" round section gouge. Used as a scraper, it's shaft tends
to chatter. Used as a gouge, it's very grabby. I ground the ears
back to give it more of a fingernail shape, but it's still difficult
to use without tear-out and catching. I think I need to reduce the
bevel angle as well.

And with the plate I last made, the bottom of the plate's body gets in
the way of using a skew from one direction - so it seems impossible to
use a skew to cut a 1/4" inverted round at the point between the body
and the foot. Tear-out was also a problem with the wood used and at
the angles I was able to approach it.

Any suggestions?

Pointed gouge. Means ears waaaay back, drop at the sides almost vertical.
Enter with the sharp nose, then drop the handle and roll to shear scrape.

Narrower nose and more consistent angle of the bevel makes it less grabby
than a fingernail pattern.

I would use a 1/8" Oland tool with the sides ground back. A bit of rotation
allows a shear cut at the end to give a good sanding surface.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Depending on the wood, I use my 1/4 bowl gouge (yup... that is what
they call it!) with the ears ground back, but a round point on it. It
is easy to put a point on that thing and you wind up with a million
tiny grooves. This only works well if the wood isn't too prone to tear
out.

However, go to Darrell's site and check out his Oland tools. I am
experimenting with the concept/shape/design of the bits, and some of
them are pretty cool, and in some configurations on certain woods they
leave a surface smooth enough to finish sand.

The one I am experimenting with now is a 3/16" round bit with a 60
degree bevel on it, and cut across the top at about 5 degrees to give a
negative rake. Because the bite is so small using it as a spindle
gouge, it cuts the tough stuff like butter and leaves a great surface
behind. Once correctly ground, the 5% cobalt bit takes a few swipes
with the stone and it is good as new. It never really feels sharp...
but the steel wool like shavings tell me I am doing OK.

And with the same bit, you can end grain hollow so fast it will scare
you. It is perfect for my seasonal candle/oil lamp business since I
can just jam the thing in the wood to cut out for the candle fit ups.
Each candle fit up requires fitting to one lamp as they are all
different sizes, but since it only has to be about 3/4" deep, this is
the ticket.

I am thinking that if you are making a bunch of your bowls you might
want to look into making something similar, and dedicate your tool or
at least the specific bit to the job.

Just a thought.

Robert

Darrell,

Help me with where there's an Oland tool on your website. Could be I looked
at it and didn't know what I was looking at.

Robert, thanks for the details in your post.

Merry Christmas
TomNie

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:Nqjqf.24$OU5.3@clgrps13...
I would use a 1/8" Oland tool with the sides ground back. A bit of rotation
allows a shear cut at the end to give a good sanding surface.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Tom Nie said:

Darrell,

Help me with where there's an Oland tool on your website. Could be I looked
at it and didn't know what I was looking at.

I'm not Darrell, but here goes...

http://aroundthewoods.com/oland.shtml

I have a Oneway Termite whose shaft can be used in such a fashion.
I was able to clamp the HSS cutter from a Sorby Hollowmaster securely.
It didn't cut very well with the stock grind however... ;-)

FWIW,

Greg G.

Greg G. said:

What tools do you use to turn the rolled lip and beaded base details?
These are 1/4" ID or so.

Well, I messed around with this challenge a bit yesterday.
For you who are Masters of the Black Art of hand grinding fine
profiles, excuse the repetition of an exhausted subject.
It's all new to me...

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...ailGrind01.jpg

All I had to work with was a small 1/4" Crown spindle gouge.
No one had a small bowl gouge in stock locally, and I don't have any
HSS handy. My old drill bits seem far too brittle...

But with a little grinder work and probably more to come, I have come
up with a grind that, while perhaps not perfect, seems serviceable.

I used a strip of 7 ply plywood, and a scrap of maple to test the
various grinds. I figure if it cuts these examples, an actual piece
should present no new problems.

The 1/4" gouge is more shallow than I had hoped, and cutting a smooth
round on the end is a real PITA. It's far too easy to end up with a
ragged, too-long finger when trying to obtain an effective side grind.
Treating the sides/edges first, then moving to blend with the tip
seems most effective. I think I'm going to try and reduce the bevel a
bit more as well. I've developed an interesting combination rotating,
sweeping, and rising movement for sharpening this blasted thing...

One of these days, I'm going to have to buy a book on the subject.
Did I mention how difficult it is to get a nice smooth, rounded end?

FWIW,

Greg G.

George said:


"Greg G." wrote in message

What tools do you use to turn the rolled lip and beaded base details?
These are 1/4" ID or so.

Pointed gouge. Means ears waaaay back, drop at the sides almost vertical.
Enter with the sharp nose, then drop the handle and roll to shear scrape.

Narrower nose and more consistent angle of the bevel makes it less grabby
than a fingernail pattern.

Thanks, George,
I used your info, along with other respondents', to obtain a
manageable grind. See addendum post for details if you're interested.


Greg G.

Darrell Feltmate said:

I would use a 1/8" Oland tool with the sides ground back. A bit of rotation
allows a shear cut at the end to give a good sanding surface.

I fumbled around your site and found the info on the Oland tool.
I have a Termite handle that seems natural for a bit holder.
Tried it out (sorta) with a Sorby HM scraper bit, and it seemed very
controllable, but the grind on the scraper wasn't optimal.

I need to come up with a source for HSS, without the ususal "minimum
order, we don't stock that, never heard of that" routine. Probably
wouldn't use more than 2 feet of stock in a lifetime.

Thanks, Darrell.


Greg G.

said:

Depending on the wood, I use my 1/4 bowl gouge (yup... that is what
they call it!) with the ears ground back, but a round point on it. It
is easy to put a point on that thing and you wind up with a million
tiny grooves. This only works well if the wood isn't too prone to tear
out.

Couldn't find a bowl gouge that small.
Rockler, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft, nothing.
(Perhaps as part of a mini-turning set or something...)
I have a 3/8, but it's far too big.

However, go to Darrell's site and check out his Oland tools. I am
experimenting with the concept/shape/design of the bits, and some of
them are pretty cool, and in some configurations on certain woods they
leave a surface smooth enough to finish sand.

I did, and experimented briefly with the idea.
Have no HSS handy, and if I have to invest time into it, we're not
using soft steel.

The one I am experimenting with now is a 3/16" round bit with a 60
degree bevel on it, and cut across the top at about 5 degrees to give a
negative rake. Because the bite is so small using it as a spindle
gouge, it cuts the tough stuff like butter and leaves a great surface
behind. Once correctly ground, the 5% cobalt bit takes a few swipes
with the stone and it is good as new. It never really feels sharp...
but the steel wool like shavings tell me I am doing OK.

Heck, I was amazed at the tiny little 3 foot long shavings I got from
that kiln dried segmented dish. The glue held together, even at that
resolution. Looked like a pile of Walnut brown steel wool. I
stretched a couple of the Maple sections out lengthwise, and they
exceeded 4 feet. Way Cool!

It would be interesting to see a pictorial representation of your tool
and grind. Uh... Let me rephrase that... g

I am thinking that if you are making a bunch of your bowls you might
want to look into making something similar, and dedicate your tool or
at least the specific bit to the job.

These types of details are pretty common, so I would probably want a
tool dedicated to the task. I was quite surprised at being unable to
find a detail gouge/tool designed expressly for this purpose.

Thanks for all the info, Robert.


Greg G.

Greg
try Busy Bee Tools for the HSS. Get HSS tool bits that they use in the metal
turning industry. They come in various square section bits about 2 1/2"
long. Busy Bee will sell you one or fifty without breaking a sweat. If you
are in the States try Enco. I think the urls are
http://www.busybeetools.com and
http://www.use-enco.com
If wrong a Google search will point the way. One of these days I have to put
up a links page.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good turn(ing)

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:47:48 -0500, Greg wrote:

Darrell Feltmate said:

I would use a 1/8" Oland tool with the sides ground back. A bit of rotation
allows a shear cut at the end to give a good sanding surface.

I fumbled around your site and found the info on the Oland tool.
I have a Termite handle that seems natural for a bit holder.
Tried it out (sorta) with a Sorby HM scraper bit, and it seemed very
controllable, but the grind on the scraper wasn't optimal.

I need to come up with a source for HSS, without the ususal "minimum
order, we don't stock that, never heard of that" routine. Probably
wouldn't use more than 2 feet of stock in a lifetime.

Thanks, Darrell.


Greg G.

Greg... I bought these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=40088

They're perfect for my Oland tools but to use in your Termite handle (I have 2
hours termite experience now) they'll have to be rounded at the base.. they seem
to cut very well, are easy to grind and hold an edge pretty well... and they're
very affordable..

You can make a set of tips in whatever shapes you like, or just regrind what you
need and change bits when you're down to a stub..

I ended up making 3 Oland tools so that I can either have 3 different grinds to
work with, or my "late night stealth" mode, where they're all a general grind
but I can go a LONG time without running the grinder or sander and ****ing off
the neighbors..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:24:50 -0800, mac davis
wrote:

Greg...
I'm replying to my own post here... lol

I had a couple of large bowls to turn last night and decided to use the Termite
handle for an Oland bit...
I used the bench grinder to roughly round one end of the 1/4 x 1/4" HSS stock to
a slightly loose fit on the termite handle and ground the other end as normal..
worked very well with good control, once I got used to the LONG handle..
Try it, you'll like it, and it's a "cheap" way to get as lot more use out of the
termite... or at least the handle..

BTW: Tried the Termite a little last night, not for end grain, but on the pine
bowl blank that I was hogging out (cross grain)
Kind of fun if you're careful, and an awfully clean cut... looks like a fun
addition to the chisels!

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:47:48 -0500, Greg wrote:

Darrell Feltmate said:

I would use a 1/8" Oland tool with the sides ground back. A bit of rotation
allows a shear cut at the end to give a good sanding surface.

I fumbled around your site and found the info on the Oland tool.
I have a Termite handle that seems natural for a bit holder.
Tried it out (sorta) with a Sorby HM scraper bit, and it seemed very
controllable, but the grind on the scraper wasn't optimal.

I need to come up with a source for HSS, without the ususal "minimum
order, we don't stock that, never heard of that" routine. Probably
wouldn't use more than 2 feet of stock in a lifetime.

Thanks, Darrell.


Greg G.

Greg... I bought these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=40088

They're perfect for my Oland tools but to use in your Termite handle (I have 2
hours termite experience now) they'll have to be rounded at the base.. they seem
to cut very well, are easy to grind and hold an edge pretty well... and they're
very affordable..

You can make a set of tips in whatever shapes you like, or just regrind what you
need and change bits when you're down to a stub..

I ended up making 3 Oland tools so that I can either have 3 different grinds to
work with, or my "late night stealth" mode, where they're all a general grind
but I can go a LONG time without running the grinder or sander and ****ing off
the neighbors..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis said:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:24:50 -0800, mac davis
wrote:

Greg...
I'm replying to my own post here... lol

I talk to myself all the time. No one else listens... ;-)

Try it, you'll like it, and it's a "cheap" way to get as lot more use out of the
termite... or at least the handle..

I have - and it holds promise - for a handle... ;-)
When I looked at the link that Darrell posted, the first thing I did
was run to the garage and grab the termite handle so that I could
locate something laying in a drawer that would work as a bit. Now I
just have to get the proper steel to make a few _real_ bits. I'm
thinking that the actual Oland Tool that Highland Hardware sells uses
a 1/4" round back bit. I could pick one of those up quick for $3.00.
And of course, the Sorby HM bit fit as well - but I don't know where
to get a replacement.

BTW: Tried the Termite a little last night, not for end grain, but on the pine
bowl blank that I was hogging out (cross grain)

I bought it originally to endgrain hollow a spalted birch log.
Nothing else would cut it without ripping out large chunks of the
semi-rotten wood. It's a little grabby, but not bad as long as you
leave a lip to ride in on, but as a touch-up tool it blows.

Kind of fun if you're careful, and an awfully clean cut... looks like a fun
addition to the chisels!

I've not used it a whole lot, and for what it cost, I guess I should.
But like most categories of tools, sometimes ya just gotta have one.

Thanks,

Greg G.

Greg
I use hook tools instead of the Termite. I ma not sure what a hook costs but
I think with the cost of propane to make them, 10 cents each? No more
certainly. I jsut turned an end grain apple bowl from the but end of the log
with a hook tool. As soon as I get the final finsih on it I will post a
picture.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Darrell Feltmate said:

Greg
I use hook tools instead of the Termite. I ma not sure what a hook costs but
I think with the cost of propane to make them, 10 cents each? No more
certainly. I jsut turned an end grain apple bowl from the but end of the log
with a hook tool. As soon as I get the final finsih on it I will post a
picture.

Thanks, I'll look into this as well.
I'm not a big fan of throwing money at overly complicated solutions.
Happen to know of a page showing various grinds on the Oland bits?
I made up a few bits from 1/8" HSS and tried them out:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...landtool01.jpg

Works well, but grinding is... uhhh... a bit picky.

I'm seeing a wooden jig on a drill press w/ a sanding drum... ;-)

TIA,

Greg G.

Greg
The round tip is good but I would bring the angle sharper, to 45 for
faceplate and up to 60 for spindle turning. I will put some pictures on my
site. For the jig I use, check my site under sharpening.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Greg,
Got any pictures?
TomNie

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
said:

Depending on the wood, I use my 1/4 bowl gouge (yup... that is what
they call it!) with the ears ground back, but a round point on it. It
is easy to put a point on that thing and you wind up with a million
tiny grooves. This only works well if the wood isn't too prone to tear
out.

Couldn't find a bowl gouge that small.
Rockler, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft, nothing.
(Perhaps as part of a mini-turning set or something...)
I have a 3/8, but it's far too big.

However, go to Darrell's site and check out his Oland tools. I am
experimenting with the concept/shape/design of the bits, and some of
them are pretty cool, and in some configurations on certain woods they
leave a surface smooth enough to finish sand.

I did, and experimented briefly with the idea.
Have no HSS handy, and if I have to invest time into it, we're not
using soft steel.

The one I am experimenting with now is a 3/16" round bit with a 60
degree bevel on it, and cut across the top at about 5 degrees to give a
negative rake. Because the bite is so small using it as a spindle
gouge, it cuts the tough stuff like butter and leaves a great surface
behind. Once correctly ground, the 5% cobalt bit takes a few swipes
with the stone and it is good as new. It never really feels sharp...
but the steel wool like shavings tell me I am doing OK.

Heck, I was amazed at the tiny little 3 foot long shavings I got from
that kiln dried segmented dish. The glue held together, even at that
resolution. Looked like a pile of Walnut brown steel wool. I
stretched a couple of the Maple sections out lengthwise, and they
exceeded 4 feet. Way Cool!

It would be interesting to see a pictorial representation of your tool
and grind. Uh... Let me rephrase that... g

I am thinking that if you are making a bunch of your bowls you might
want to look into making something similar, and dedicate your tool or
at least the specific bit to the job.

These types of details are pretty common, so I would probably want a
tool dedicated to the task. I was quite surprised at being unable to
find a detail gouge/tool designed expressly for this purpose.

Thanks for all the info, Robert.


Greg G.

Tom Nie said:

Greg,
Got any pictures?

Sure , Tom - I have pictures. I have pictures of tools, furniture,
birds, piles of wood shavings, DIY electronics, the re-roofing job,
big rocks in Arizona, lepidoptera, etc. ;-)
(Just yanking your chain...)

Here's one to get you started:
(This one makes my walls and skin crawl...)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...termites01.jpg

Or would this be more to your liking? g

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...landtool01.jpg



Greg G.

Darrell Feltmate said:

Greg
The round tip is good but I would bring the angle sharper, to 45 for
faceplate and up to 60 for spindle turning. I will put some pictures on my
site. For the jig I use, check my site under sharpening.

Thanks for the info. I considered building a similar sharpening jig,
but instead developed a free-hand technique that works perfectly fine
for me with standard lathe tools.

While grinding this 1/8" tip into various forms, the tip demonstrated
a tendency to want to catch on the grinding wheel, or bounce, which is
not a particularly desirable occurrence. Dressing the wheel didn't
help and additionally, the wheel cuts so fast that it is difficult to
maintain a really smooth, rounded edge. I use a 120G 8" white wheel.
That's why I was considering a DP/sanding jig - for a slower, more
controllable cut.

The bevel is not acute enough, but since I have a total of 15 minutes
into this so far, it worked well enough to deduce that it should work
well when refined, and the behavior of the tool is predictable.

Wasn't sure whether to emulate the angles of a gouge, or if this was
an entirely new grinding paradigm. ;-) Looked around the web at a
few sites, but no one showed good close-ups of their favorite grinds.

Thanks,

Greg G.

I definitely second the "Oland tool" approach. I was fumbling around
trying to deal with small details as well. Stumbled over Darrell's
site and built my first tool using 1/4" HSS toolbit from Enco. I have
since ground over half-dozen profiles - on both ends of the toolbit.

I do the rough grind on the 80grit grinding wheel, then finish up on
the belt-sander. Finally, I do a quick hone on a bench-stone. As I
use the tool, I just hone on the stone to maintain an edge.

Also, I've been playing with cutting profiles using the small grinding
stones you can get for the Dremel and other hand-held grinders. It's
slow going as the stones don't hold up well to HSS but you can get some
interesting results.

Bill W