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| Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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Musing about KISS & RCW. (what! me keep it short & simple)
The reports of my absence are exaggerated, but it sure is good to have
net friends who give a damn. I don't plan to lose you, so thanks for caring. That's enough sentiment. Now back to COC mode before I lose my stripes. IIRC it was the other Pope who wrote "A little learning is a dangerous thing", but I wonder if it applies to rcw. Each of us has some special knowledge or expertise about something, but we all are woodturners and I wonder if only a _little_ learning about things that aren't 'need to know' for turning isn't sufficient. I even wonder if too much dogmatic turning advice could sometimes hinder our progress and ruin our fun? Same with striving for perfection when we all know there never was, isn't now and never will be a perfect bowl. Can there be too much teaching, advising, etc? Is making mistakes and learning from them a bad thing? Why do so many good self-taught turners feel that others' hands must be held and why do so many otherwise smart and self-sufficient people want their hands held while multiple turning techniques (usually 90 t0 180 deg. out of phase) are spoon fed? Maybe demos, hands-on, net threads and the like serve as much for socializing as for learning. Chemistry, electronics, engineering, law, electric power distribution, metallurgy, allergy, oncology, toxicology, internal combustion, electric motors, physics, metaphysics, forestry, botany, strength of materials, economics, logic, business practices, philosophy, machining, welding, bull****, vulgarity, manners and music to name a _few  have all beendiscussed here and we recognize ourselves somewhere in the list. Enthusiasm for the non-turning things we each hold dear is fine, but I suspect small doses go down easier for most others. Woodturning can be and once was a simple craft. Just maybe 'keeping it simple' isn't all bad, or do you believe that we must "drink deep or not at all" in order to enjoy turning wood? Aren't musings just misplaced or disguised blogs? (just learned the word) The exceptions that prove the KISS rule. To the new turners on rcw, welcome. No you aren't confused and bewildered. I am. Just sigh & forgive or disagree like all the tolerant regulars do. A grain of salt helps. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
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#3
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Hi Arch Like a school kid back from holidays, you have to really put it on heavy do you ?? Yes you had us (at least me) worried, glad to have your usual musings back on line. This last one put a grin on my face, I think you have it all covered, again. Maybe all (most) of us formerly "The world will stop without us" experts do need some place to remind others of that, sometimes, ??? Taking someone by the hand goes well with that, maybe ? KISS ?? that's to hard to do it seems, and doesn't attract enough attention....... maybe ?? Is blogs another word for bullsh.....???, I wouldn't dream of putting your musings in the same category Arch. Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo Arch wrote: The reports of my absence are exaggerated, but it sure is good to have net friends who give a damn. I don't plan to lose you, so thanks for caring. That's enough sentiment. Now back to COC mode before I lose my stripes. /SNIP/ To the new turners on rcw, welcome. No you aren't confused and bewildered. I am. Just sigh & forgive or disagree like all the tolerant regulars do. A grain of salt helps. Turn to Safety, Arch |
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my thoughts, in as terse a form as possible to stimulate cognition:
1. Knowlege is not equal to expertise 2. Expertise can make the hard familar 3. The unchallanged turner stagnates 4. A form repeated often enough is just a link in a chain, not art 5. Discovery engenders knowlege 6. Beauty in art is in the unexpected snipped to retain essence only "Arch" wrote in message ... Can there be too much teaching, advising, etc? Is making mistakes and learning from them a bad thing? Why do so many good self-taught turners feel that others' hands must be held and why do so many otherwise smart and self-sufficient people want their hands held while multiple turning techniques (usually 90 t0 180 deg. out of phase) are spoon fed? Maybe demos, hands-on, net threads and the like serve as much for socializing as for learning. |
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#6
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Arch wrote:
I even wonder if too much dogmatic turning advice could sometimes hinder our progress and ruin our fun? You pegged my turning club. They turn bowls. Then for fun, they turn more bowls. Then they talk about bowls. The consider form, shape, technique, finishing, wood selection and anything else that could pertain to ...... bowls. They will not experiment, nor will they try new things. We had a great demonstrator come to the meeting last time, and by gawd, I thought he would be a slam bang hit. You see, he turns bowls. BUT.... he decorates his bowls. He dyes them; he carves on them; he even put gold leaf on one that night. The group couldn't wait for him to leave because he didn't turn bowls the way they think they should be done. Thin walled, shiny finish (necesary to brag about how many coats of XXX you put on and how you sanded to 12,000 grit) and not useful in any respect. The perfect bowl. Their minds are closed, and their imagination is shut down. I turn bowls, boxes, lamp finials, fan pulls, mushroms, ornaments, an occasional pen, gavels, carving mallets, some treen ware and anything else that catches my fancy. I make some of my own drive madrels, some of my own tools, I experiment with things like forced spalting, and make all of my own finishes. But I will definitely be the outsider at the club meeting Thursday because when show and tell comes... I won't have a bowl. I guess the good news is that there will be plenty of them there to look at as the rest of the club thinks that is all there is to turn on a lathe. Robert |
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wrote in message oups.com... Arch wrote: I even wonder if too much dogmatic turning advice could sometimes hinder our progress and ruin our fun? You pegged my turning club. They turn bowls. Then for fun, they turn more bowls. Then they talk about bowls. The consider form, shape, technique, finishing, wood selection and anything else that could pertain to ...... bowls. They will not experiment, nor will they try new things. We had a great demonstrator come to the meeting last time, and by gawd, I thought he would be a slam bang hit. You see, he turns bowls. BUT.... he decorates his bowls. He dyes them; he carves on them; he even put gold leaf on one that night. The group couldn't wait for him to leave because he didn't turn bowls the way they think they should be done. Thin walled, shiny finish (necesary to brag about how many coats of XXX you put on and how you sanded to 12,000 grit) and not useful in any respect. The perfect bowl. Their minds are closed, and their imagination is shut down. I turn bowls, boxes, lamp finials, fan pulls, mushroms, ornaments, an occasional pen, gavels, carving mallets, some treen ware and anything else that catches my fancy. I make some of my own drive madrels, some of my own tools, I experiment with things like forced spalting, and make all of my own finishes. But I will definitely be the outsider at the club meeting Thursday because when show and tell comes... I won't have a bowl. I guess the good news is that there will be plenty of them there to look at as the rest of the club thinks that is all there is to turn on a lathe. Robert =========================== That's really a sad, SAD story! So much more they could be doing to expand their capabilities. Ken Moon Webberville, TX. |
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wrote in message oups.com... You pegged my turning club. They turn bowls. Then for fun, they turn more bowls. Then they talk about bowls. The consider form, shape, technique, finishing, wood selection and anything else that could pertain to ...... bowls. SNIP Thin walled, shiny finish (necesary to brag about how many coats of XXX you put on and how you sanded to 12,000 grit) and not useful in any respect. The perfect bowl. Amazing how some folks like different things, isn't it? I could be worse. There are people who think the pinnacle of turning is the "hollow form." At least you can puke into a bowl if the conversation gets too sickening. |
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#9
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Robert,
What's this about "forced spalting"??? Please fill a newbie in. Tom Nie wrote in message oups.com... Arch wrote: I even wonder if too much dogmatic turning advice could sometimes hinder our progress and ruin our fun? You pegged my turning club. They turn bowls. Then for fun, they turn more bowls. Then they talk about bowls. The consider form, shape, technique, finishing, wood selection and anything else that could pertain to ...... bowls. They will not experiment, nor will they try new things. We had a great demonstrator come to the meeting last time, and by gawd, I thought he would be a slam bang hit. You see, he turns bowls. BUT.... he decorates his bowls. He dyes them; he carves on them; he even put gold leaf on one that night. The group couldn't wait for him to leave because he didn't turn bowls the way they think they should be done. Thin walled, shiny finish (necesary to brag about how many coats of XXX you put on and how you sanded to 12,000 grit) and not useful in any respect. The perfect bowl. Their minds are closed, and their imagination is shut down. I turn bowls, boxes, lamp finials, fan pulls, mushroms, ornaments, an occasional pen, gavels, carving mallets, some treen ware and anything else that catches my fancy. I make some of my own drive madrels, some of my own tools, I experiment with things like forced spalting, and make all of my own finishes. But I will definitely be the outsider at the club meeting Thursday because when show and tell comes... I won't have a bowl. I guess the good news is that there will be plenty of them there to look at as the rest of the club thinks that is all there is to turn on a lathe. Robert |
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wonder if only a _little_ learning about things that aren't 'need to
know' for turning isn't sufficient. I even wonder if too much dogmatic turning advice could sometimes hinder our progress and ruin our fun? Hi Arch, Are you asking if a little knowledge is okay and we should let it go at that and not get so hung up on myriad tools and techniques? If so, it's a good question. "Whatever makes you happy" is probably the best answer, and it will be different for each of us. Personally, I like knowing all the possible ways to do something, not just find one way that works and then do it the same way every time. For instance, I like to know about lots of different chucking methods so I can choose the one that seems best suited for the current project. And I like to be skilled at being able to make the same cut (like rolling a bead, for example) with many different types of tools so I can use the best method for my current situation, not just the only one I know. I think turning is more fun if you have a certain amount of mastery, and that comes with knowledge and practice. And even if I was going to be a one technique kind of guy, my favorite technique might well be the one I haven't learned yet, so I need to try everything sooner or later, anyway. But that's just me, your mileage may vary. I think if a guy wants to putter around on his mini lathe and make a doorknob with a scraper because that's the only tool he's confident with, and if he's having fun and he's happy, then that's the right thing for him to do, and more power to him. Been there, done that. But I'm in a different place now. Maybe I'll go back to that someday, who knows? We each gotta find our own way, and we shouldn't disparage anyone who does it differently. If we turn for pleasure, then the bottom line is "whatever makes you happy." best wishes, -mike paulson, fort collins, co |
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#11
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What's this about "forced spalting"??? Please fill a newbie in.
Tom Nie Tom, get a cup of coffee. This explanation turned out longer than I intended... This is something I picked up on this very group a few years ago. Your mileage will vary, but this is my take on the procedure after a few years of experimenting: You need to start out with green (really green) wood. Rough out your desired piece to close to finished dimension. Take a plastic grocery store bag or something similar, and put a thick layer (2 -3") at the bottom. Put the piece in, and pack it tight with the green shavings, bark and all. Tie off the bag with a loose knot, and turn it upside down and put it in another grocery bag. This way it is pretty well sealed with the knots on either side of the piece. I put this under my shop, where it is warm but out of direct sunlight. Check on this piece in about a month. It should be starting to turn black and maybe even smell a little swampy. I take out about half the shavings, then seal it up and wait another month. When I check it the second time, I take out half the remaining shavings and seal it back up in the bags. One month later, I take a look at it. If it is going to crack or split like a bowl, center piece, vase, etc., it will usually be doing it now. Surprisingly, gel CA will work wonders on this wood at this point, even though it is moist and nasty, so that is my chosen crack defense. I then put it back in the plastic bag with no shavings and let it finish drying out, usually another month and it is perfect. You will be surprised how much of the black spalting and mold color will turn off in some pieces and how much won't from others. I get strange colors (the ash pencil holder I just finished had a large emerald green streak in it that finshed beatifully) and different patterns that show up you never would have seen. That same piece of ash now looks like some tropical wood, nicely brown toned (ash is light tan to white) over the whole piece, quite exotic. But I have done other pieces of ash that just look like dirty old wood when finished. Those pieces go to the ebonizing lab. I have plenty of ash around here, plenty of hackberry, and pecan to practice on. Each piece will turn out different, and even different shapes that dry differently will look completely different from another finished piece off the same branch (literally). Like I said, you never know what you will get. One larger centerpiece I roughed out turned completely black. Like the bottom of a boot. I let it finsh drying though, and then finished it out. It honestly looked like a piece of nice walnut after sanding and the final finish on it. So experimentation is the key. One good bonus to this method is that you rarely have any piece warp badly due to the fact you have slowed the drying to a crawl. Also, you can also stop the spalting along the way in this process and double bag the piece to let it finish drying. When I trim my trees, or when my neighbors trim theirs, I usually have log or two of green stuff to begin the process. Turning green is fun and fast... so I have a lot of pieces in different stages under the shop at any given time. I have had no luck with anything in the oak family, nor mesquite. I would think that the best woods would be those medium hardwoods that are of lighter color so that you can see the effects of the process. I hope you try this out as I have sure had a lot of fun with it. Robert |
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#12
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That's really a sad, SAD story! So much more they could be doing to expand
their capabilities. Ken Moon Webberville, TX. It really is. There is some real talent in the group. Great techniques, and some of them are really good guys. But the pervasive attitude is if you aren't turning bowls, you are just screwing around. Years ago, this group was quite active and there was always somebody trying something new and fun. Neat stuff, off the wall stuff. Some of it worked, some if it didn't. But I always got a charge out of reading the posts that were so far off the beaten path. I honestly believe that in my beginning years of turning I would have sold the lathe if it weren't for the folks here always pushing the envelope and then sharing their experiences. But I do agree with Mike's comment, and that is whatever makes one happy is good enough. I respect that. But for me, I feel like if I am standing still I am wasting my time. Robert |
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#13
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#14
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On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:31:04 -0400, "George" George@least wrote:
wrote in message roups.com... You pegged my turning club. They turn bowls. Then for fun, they turn more bowls. Then they talk about bowls. The consider form, shape, technique, finishing, wood selection and anything else that could pertain to ...... bowls. SNIP Thin walled, shiny finish (necesary to brag about how many coats of XXX you put on and how you sanded to 12,000 grit) and not useful in any respect. The perfect bowl. Amazing how some folks like different things, isn't it? I could be worse. There are people who think the pinnacle of turning is the "hollow form." At least you can puke into a bowl if the conversation gets too sickening. rofl... Never thought about naming a bowl "ralph".. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
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wrote in message ups.com... What's this about "forced spalting"??? Please fill a newbie in. Tom Nie Tom, get a cup of coffee. This explanation turned out longer than I intended... http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/te...alted_wood.pdf |
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#16
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Jeeezus...
Robert.. sounds like you need to bring some new blood into the group before it becomes the coffee club with occasional bowl turning discussions... IMHO, your group has become exactly what clubs shouldn't be... elitists.. mac I feel like I was slapped. I could not have described out meetings any better with a year's worth of thought. Talk about dead on... almost like you have been there. In the clear light of day that description sure puts a point on what is wrong in our club. I champion getting new folks in there, but the old guys now feel like it is "their" club, and they do not roll out the red carpet for new members. They feel like the new people should keep quiet for a few meetings "to get a feel for things" and to "know what questions to ask to keep from wasting the more experienced turners time". New folks come for a meeting or two... then they never return since they are made to feel that they have nothing of interest to say. I may just have link this thread to a couple of other members that might be interested. I'll tell them its about how to turn Christmas ornaments that look like bowls... then I'll get 'em. Thanks Mac... you may have really stoked me up on this issue. I do remember when the club meetings were FUN. To put a point on it, we have about 80 paying members on the roster, but an average attendance of only about 15 with about 5 guests a meeting (the ones we never see again!) Robert |
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,,,just to continue a ? thread that all you guys salvaged and made
interesting: ...doubt an EMT would advise pukeing into today's artistic cutting edge bowls. True, these bowls aren't dull & boring, but they are a little leaky & unsanitary. Maybe they are hoping for a National Endowment of Arts grant.  ...and then there are the clubs whose purpose seems to be about Robert's (not you, Robert) rules and what the refugees from civic clubs aka officers & board members (some, not all! not all!) decide is meet, proper & worthwhile to consider. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
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#19
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Arch wrote:
and what the refugees from civic clubs aka officers & board members Refugees from civic clubs?? WELL SAID. All but one of our board members is retired, and those guys take turns passing around the job when voting time comes around. So no one new ever gets in. I swear you must have been there, at least in spirit. Hey... wait a minute... you didn't sneak down here to our club meetings in your late disappearance from here did you? Is that how you pegged it so close? Robert |
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#23
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Prometheus,
Well said about the Masons and the resulting membership problem. I'm na inactive 32nd degree and a Shriner. I found that only the Shrine clubs move beyond the repetition and there's still a lot of what you guys are talking about. What's I've always watched in wonderment is how so many people react in a position of "power". It's like the epitomy of their life to be in charge of something or someone. At least, in their case, the charitable works aspect is a saving grace. Those kids move your heart. Tom Nie "Prometheus" wrote in message ... On 24 Aug 2005 23:52:09 -0700, wrote: Arch wrote: and what the refugees from civic clubs aka officers & board members Refugees from civic clubs?? WELL SAID. All but one of our board members is retired, and those guys take turns passing around the job when voting time comes around. So no one new ever gets in. I swear you must have been there, at least in spirit. Hey... wait a minute... you didn't sneak down here to our club meetings in your late disappearance from here did you? Is that how you pegged it so close? Nah, there's no need for anyone to spy on any particular club to know the score... I was made a Mason when I was 23, and the description fits them to a "T" as well. I soldiered along with it for several years because I liked the philosophies and allegories in the literature, but it just isn't worth my time (and money) to finance a retired folks' coffee night for the one minute a week when the central ideas are mentioned in passing. Too bad, really- but that just seems to be the way any social group like that ends up, unless there is some sort of pressing goal or mission. |
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#24
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"Tom Nie" wrote in message ... What's I've always watched in wonderment is how so many people react in a position of "power". It's like the epitomy of their life to be in charge of something or someone. At least, in their case, the charitable works aspect is a saving grace. Those kids move your heart. There are always a couple (or more) options in organizations of all sorts. Do something or be someone. If you're someone who favors the former course, be prepared to begin by helping the band unload and stick around to sweep the floor afterward, while the others talk about what great things community dances can be. Reminds me - need to order some sweeping compound.... |
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#25
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Arch,
I don't know if this proliferation of information, classes, demonstrations, and other learning modes is a good or bad thing. But, it sure can cost the new woodturner a lot of money if they try to keep up with the many different tool recommendations they are getting. A typical wood turner is exposed to at least 3 demonstrations of turning techniques in a years time. Each of them will be using different tools, and may even be selling them right there at the demonstration. It is possible to spend several hundred dollars on the newest "best" tools, and still not have a clue on how to turn wood. Russ Fairfield http://www.woodturner-russ.com/ |
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#26
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Russ Fairfield wrote:
But, it sure can cost the new woodturner a lot of money if they try to keep up with the many different tool recommendations they are getting. A typical wood turner is exposed to at least 3 demonstrations of turning techniques in a years time. Each of them will be using different tools, and may even be selling them right there at the demonstration. It is possible to spend several hundred dollars on the newest "best" tools, and still not have a clue on how to turn wood. This goes right back to what Arch was saying, and one of the biggest things that I see in our club. The newer guys (and the more experienced ones for that matter) need to get together with the better turners and see what tools they use for the operations involved in making projects they like. I went in WoodCraft the other day and was stunned, just stunned at their newest round of price increases. How can a Sorby roughing gouge cost $75? How can a spindle gouge average about $55 to $60? With that in mind, how does a beginning turner feel comfortable buying ANY tool for a hobby? I am doing the demo at my club next month (and it ain't bowls!) on easy Christmas gifts. I am skipping ornaments as we have someone that does that every year and he does a great job. So I am going to make lamp pulls, mushrooms with hollowed caps, fan fulls, weed pots, clock bases for fit ups and oil candle bases for glass fit ups from log to finish. Out of my 70 odd turning tools, I will take only the ones I use: - 3/4 roughing gouge - 3/8 bowl gouge - 1/2 in shallow spindle gouge - 3/16 diamond parting tool - 3/4 straight scraper (for fit up bottoms) As I learned, each tool should be explored and used to see how it works. The reason we have all the new tools out is someone that was experimenting in his shop found out how to make a tool that worked well for them, and then that became "the way". With ten billion turners out there, there are probably ten billion ways to do just about anything on spinning wood. I can see a time when one making some of their own tools will be as much a part of this craft as the turning. More experienced turners will want to make the perfect tool for their turning style, and less experienced turners will have to make some of their own in order to have tools to turn with. Robert |
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