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  #41   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote a delightful piece of science fiction.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don, it pegged my BS meter, as well. Also my entertainment meter. Martin,
you are in the wrong forum--this needs to be submitted to
Rec.Ent.Sciencefiction.


  #42   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article ,
Don Murray wrote:

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

Special angles for smart assess on Tuesdays.
Actually - I'm a Physicist. I know that the center tap is not perfect.
So the end phases are not perfect.
That is the fact of manufacture. My brother makes Utility Transformers.


It's not really a center tap. There's two separate coils on the
secondary and for a 240 transformer the 2 coils are in series, and the
center point is connected to a bushing and brought to the outside of the
can. The same transformer can be used on a 208 service by parallelling
the secondary coils inside the can. Didn't your brother explain this to you?

This is 220 service.

No, it's 240 service.


IT depends on your high line service and if the high line was kicked up
to allow more power or not.


More BS. If you have anything to back this up, show me.


_I_ only have 208V. not 220, or 240. I've got meter readings to back
that claim, *and* utility warning stickers at the meter.

I have lived using 110, 112, 115, 120, 125, 130 volts on home wall plugs.


More BS. Granted years ago there was 110, and now the service voltage is
120 plus or minus 5%. But nowhere in the United States has 130V in wall
plugs. If they do show me.


You had better not bet money against that 130v. I used to have a calibrated
westinghouse line-voltage monitor that I used wherever I was living.

In one old apartment building (1905 construction) I lived in -- which was less
than 70 ft from the substation -- I had a measured 129.5V on the third floor.

Took some _quite_ fussing at the electric utility to get them to send somebody
out to check the situation. When the _engineer_ finally showed up, he took
one look at the gear sitting on my 'workbench', said "h*ll, you've got better
test gear than I do", and radioed dispatch to roll a service truck to the
substation 'right now'.

  #43   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote: (clip) I had a measured 129.5V on the third floor.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gosh! Think how high it must have been on the FIRST floor.


  #44   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Leo Lichtman wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote a delightful piece of science fiction.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don, it pegged my BS meter, as well. Also my entertainment meter. Martin,
you are in the wrong forum--this needs to be submitted to
Rec.Ent.Sciencefiction.


You guys are just not up to speed on custom large factory Production machines.

I have been turning wood since 1957 on and off. Have to turn a handle for the
2" wide steel wrench I cut with my cnc plasma torch. It will be in Walnut.

I have been designing electronic and electrical things since before that date.
National Science Fair first place winner in 57. That was the weirdest year
in my life. Having 3 wings of B-52's in battle dress form up and head East
while I was on the play yard.

Yes I have seen it - done it - been there and had it done to me.

The CANCO plant - makes cans from sheet metal - that was or still is in Arlington Tx
was the place with this nasty transformer and motor. Three phase normal to nasty.

I think you guys are good in your trade but never ran across this stuff and so
it is out of your background.

Ever see a 10,000 amp Ignatron (Mercury tube with an igniter ) They are used to
electro plate large metal items - like whole cars or truck bodies.
They are getting old now - going to solid state stuff but I bet some are still around.

Martin


--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

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  #45   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote: (clip) I think you guys are good in your trade
but never ran across this stuff and so it is out of your background. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some of the things I have never seen do not exist.




  #46   Report Post  
Ken Moon
 
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"DJ Delorie" wrote in message
...
"Martin H. Eastburn" writes:
Your one high voltage (really medium or somewhat low for service) is

SNIP ..........
There are unique transformers that can generate twisted star
voltages and phases


No, they can *convert* voltages that are already three phase to other
three phase voltages. They come in delta and wye configurations. An
isolation transformer can extract one of the phases and yield a single
phase service, but no simple transformer can turn N phases into N
phases.

but the are not at homes.


Maybe not *your* home.

==============================
Technically true, but in practice, a wye primary can be used with a delta
secondary allowing, when rectified, a 12 pulse output rather than the 6
pulse of either the dellta/delta or wye/wye. This feature is used in X-ray
generators to achieve near DC levels at the X-ray tube.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.


  #47   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Leo Lichtman wrote:

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote: (clip) I think you guys are good in your trade
but never ran across this stuff and so it is out of your background. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some of the things I have never seen do not exist.


Like the sound in the forest or the semi-tractor at the 4-way stop ?

There is a lot of things I haven't and won't also.
Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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  #48   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article ,
Leo Lichtman wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote: (clip) I had a measured 129.5V on the third floor.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gosh! Think how high it must have been on the FIRST floor.


You just *THINK* you're being a smart-ass.

Given the quality of the wiring in the building -- and that I got a measured
seven-volt drop at the wall outlet when I kicked on a piece of gear that
drew a whopping 8 amps -- I *do* expect the first-floor folks _were_ seeing
significantly higher voltages. Simply by virtue of being on significantly
shorter runs of that antique 'house' wiring.


  #49   Report Post  
Don Murray
 
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Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

I was a professor for years and aided Electric Power and Transmission
companies
and Electric service companies in learning and teaching - and
understanding odd things.

Martin


I'd really like to know the specifics of the odd things. I really have a
fascination for the odd and unusual in the electrical industry.

Don

  #50   Report Post  
Don Murray
 
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Robert Bonomi wrote:



_I_ only have 208V. not 220, or 240. I've got meter readings to back
that claim, *and* utility warning stickers at the meter.


208V is a common service voltage. You still have 2 120V hot legs to
neutral. You find these in apartment buildings, shopping centers, office
buildings, strip malls and warehouses, but it would be very rare to have
one in a single family dwelling.




You had better not bet money against that 130v. I used to have a calibrated
westinghouse line-voltage monitor that I used wherever I was living.

In one old apartment building (1905 construction) I lived in -- which was less
than 70 ft from the substation -- I had a measured 129.5V on the third floor.

Took some _quite_ fussing at the electric utility to get them to send somebody
out to check the situation. When the _engineer_ finally showed up, he took
one look at the gear sitting on my 'workbench', said "h*ll, you've got better
test gear than I do", and radioed dispatch to roll a service truck to the
substation 'right now'.

This just backs up what I'm saying. 130V in a wall outlet is just wrong.
In your case in the apartment building, it was probably a 120/208V
service, in which case the problem was the regulator back at the
substation. Most times when I see 130V on one hot leg, it's a neutral
problem on a 120/240V service.

Don



  #51   Report Post  
Don Murray
 
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Martin H. Eastburn wrote:


You guys are just not up to speed on custom large factory Production
machines.



Martin



Martin

I did see the bit about the canning factory in your other post, and
dismissed it. The fact of the matter is when your can company or your
chrome plating company or some of the companies in my service area,
like, Airco, Blue Diamond, and Aerojet, have a problem with the power
being served them by the utility, I'm the guy that shows up. Also when
the Police call when there's a pole in the road that a car's knocked
down, or the Fire Department calls because they want the power shut off
to a burning building, or someone calls because they want the power shut
off to change their panel or a main breaker, or a little old lady calls
that just changed a fuse and her power still doesn't work, I'm the guy
that shows up.

I run into a lot of plant mechanics, maintanence workers, maintanence
engineers, and various other titles that are responsible for the
electrical systems in their plants, and I'd have to say it runs about
70/30 to the ones that have a good understanding of their electrical
systems and ones that are winging it. I spend a lot of my time educating
the 30% that don't.

Don

  #52   Report Post  
Roy Smith
 
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Don Murray wrote:
208V is a common service voltage. You still have 2 120V hot legs to
neutral. You find these in apartment buildings, shopping centers, office
buildings, strip malls and warehouses, but it would be very rare to have
one in a single family dwelling.


I used to live in such a building. 54 units, each with two phases run
into the apartment (each line of apartments got a different pair of
phases).
  #53   Report Post  
Don Murray
 
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Ken Moon wrote:


==============================
Technically true, but in practice, a wye primary can be used with a delta
secondary allowing, when rectified, a 12 pulse output rather than the 6
pulse of either the dellta/delta or wye/wye. This feature is used in X-ray
generators to achieve near DC levels at the X-ray tube.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.



Ken

I don't doubt that X-ray machines have special transformers in them for
their needs. But for distribution transformers a wye primary and a delta
secondary is very common, as is a delta primary and a wye secondary. The
determining factor on whether the primary is going to be wye or delta is
the actual line voltage and the nameplate rating on the transformer. For
example, we have a 12KV 3 wire primary that is 12KV phase to phase and
6930V phase to ground. And we also have a 20.8KV 3 wire primary with a
common neutral that is 12KV phase to ground. And we stock 12KV
transformers. So if you are going to hang a bank in the 12KV primary, it
will be delta. And if you hang a bank in the 21KV primary, it will be wye.

The determining factor on whether the secondary is going to be delta or
wye is the voltage that you want to serve. If you are going to serve a
120/240V 3 phase service the secondary will be delta. And if you are
going to serve a 120/208V 3 phase service the secondary will be wye.

Note: to serve a 120/208V service we must pull the lids off the
transformers and parallel the secondary coils inside.

So by stocking 12KV 120/240V transformers we can use these in both
primary systems and serve 120/240V 3 phase, and 120/208V 3 phase and
120/240V single phase.

Next week we'll be covering VARS (volt amps reactive) captive reactance
and inductive reactance, circulating current, fault current, third
harmonic overvoltage, and ferro-resonance.

Don


  #54   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Don Murray wrote:



Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

I was a professor for years and aided Electric Power and Transmission
companies
and Electric service companies in learning and teaching - and
understanding odd things.

Martin


I'd really like to know the specifics of the odd things. I really have a
fascination for the odd and unusual in the electrical industry.

Don

I was cleaning up my new desk - less than half the size of the older "Everlast"
I have now in the shop. (All metal with a 1939 floor top.) (has the drill holes
for locks and all.) I ran across an old IR - International Rectifier handout -
that I generated years ago. I was a great (and still am) fan of IR. Power!
http://www.irf.com/indexsw.html There are application notes on IGBTS and such that
control power hogs. Motors and heaters...
I'm taking an1045 from http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes.htm#acdc
in the shop to verify or not some full wave power bridges I have.

My old version - General information - Silicon Rectifier Circuit diagrams -
Has six phase - Uses a Wye and a Delta driving a common array of 6 rectifiers each
that are tied anodes to - and cathode (the bar on the rectifier) to either end of
a winding - the delta diodes to one end, wye to the other - the center tap is the +.
I don't see it as a buck or a boost, simply two series inductors that tie together.
(that was a parallel bridge) The series bridge is the same without the inductor

The other odd ball one is the Triple Diametric three phase which has El/Edc - No load rms voltage
divided by no load dc voltage. It matches the full wave center tap supply of 2.22 has a 6f
ripple frequency and a 180 degree conduction cycle.
A double wye - using 6 diodes conducts for only 120 degrees.

some interesting notes - Thyristors - relay controls - on the archive site
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/anarchive.html

Martin




--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #55   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Don Murray wrote:



Martin H. Eastburn wrote:


You guys are just not up to speed on custom large factory Production
machines.



Martin



Martin

I did see the bit about the canning factory in your other post, and
dismissed it. The fact of the matter is when your can company or your
chrome plating company or some of the companies in my service area,
like, Airco, Blue Diamond, and Aerojet, have a problem with the power
being served them by the utility, I'm the guy that shows up. Also when
the Police call when there's a pole in the road that a car's knocked
down, or the Fire Department calls because they want the power shut off
to a burning building, or someone calls because they want the power shut
off to change their panel or a main breaker, or a little old lady calls
that just changed a fuse and her power still doesn't work, I'm the guy
that shows up.

I run into a lot of plant mechanics, maintanence workers, maintanence
engineers, and various other titles that are responsible for the
electrical systems in their plants, and I'd have to say it runs about
70/30 to the ones that have a good understanding of their electrical
systems and ones that are winging it. I spend a lot of my time educating
the 30% that don't.

Don

Don - both good and bad for you. Nice to be at the forefront of power but
sometimes when fire is flicking in a storm - we want you there last.

I used to live in a Coastal Redwood forest. I always hated to see the
guys come in from the flat land central valley to help out. It was great
training, but very dangerous for them. At home, a bucket truck could do
everything. Only the power station high lines would need special help,
but that was someone else. These young men would have a fallen
Fir that was maybe 48" at 4' across a road being held up by the telephone
line. The power lines snapped the insulators off the poles.
To make things worse, the tree was across a steep narrow road. Cutting
the trunk would allow a killing log to roll and the size was much to big
to 'tie up'. Finally the short end was tied up in a spider web of lines
to every tree they could find. A crane at risk down-hill would hold up
a short section as the big tree saw came to play. That was not for
those to learn, but someday they might be training someone else.
The tree had fallen across most of the width of my property. Tons of limbs.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


  #56   Report Post  
Lew Hodgett
 
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Martin H. Eastburn wrote:


snip some not so funny stuff

Guess it is a case of If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle
them with bull ****.

Lew








I was cleaning up my new desk - less than half the size of the older
"Everlast"
I have now in the shop. (All metal with a 1939 floor top.) (has the
drill holes
for locks and all.) I ran across an old IR - International Rectifier
handout -
that I generated years ago. I was a great (and still am) fan of IR.
Power!
http://www.irf.com/indexsw.html There are application notes on IGBTS and
such that
control power hogs. Motors and heaters...
I'm taking an1045 from http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes.htm#acdc
in the shop to verify or not some full wave power bridges I have.

My old version - General information - Silicon Rectifier Circuit diagrams -
Has six phase - Uses a Wye and a Delta driving a common array of 6
rectifiers each
that are tied anodes to - and cathode (the bar on the rectifier) to
either end of
a winding - the delta diodes to one end, wye to the other - the center
tap is the +.
I don't see it as a buck or a boost, simply two series inductors that
tie together.
(that was a parallel bridge) The series bridge is the same without the
inductor

The other odd ball one is the Triple Diametric three phase which has
El/Edc - No load rms voltage
divided by no load dc voltage. It matches the full wave center tap
supply of 2.22 has a 6f
ripple frequency and a 180 degree conduction cycle.
A double wye - using 6 diodes conducts for only 120 degrees.

some interesting notes - Thyristors - relay controls - on the archive site
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/anarchive.html

Martin




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