A while ago I submitted a building control notice to convert my
attached garage into living space (Utility room and study). Shortly
afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying that I
needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee of
£220!).

At around the same time the documents came through from the solictor
(we had just bought this house) and the original planning permission
granted for the 2-storey extension that contains the garage (ground
floor Kitchen + Garage, 1st Floor Bedroom) had a condition attached to
it that the garage must remain a garage to preserve on-site parking.

What led me to believe I could convert the garage in the first place
was the presence in the locality (on my street and adjacent roads) of
other properties where similar works had been carried out.

Does anyone have any experience of dealing with planning departments /
getting conditions removed or establishing planning precedents?

Another thing I cannot understand is the that they require the full
fee for the planning permission. For £110 you could make an addition
(extension, conservatory etc) but for change of use the full rate is
levied.....why?

Thanks

At around the same time the documents came through from the solictor
(we had just bought this house) and the original planning permission
granted for the 2-storey extension that contains the garage (ground
floor Kitchen + Garage, 1st Floor Bedroom) had a condition attached to
it that the garage must remain a garage to preserve on-site parking.

What led me to believe I could convert the garage in the first place
was the presence in the locality (on my street and adjacent roads) of
other properties where similar works had been carried out.

Rule one is to check and check again before buying.

Does anyone have any experience of dealing with planning departments /
getting conditions removed or establishing planning precedents?

In order to get a condition altered you have to convince the planners that
it is reasonable and will comply with current planning rules. It sounds if
if others may have just ignored the condition. In most cases after four
years the power to enforce it lapses. The fact that others have got away
with it probably increases the liklihood that the Council will not alter it
since the purpose was to reduce on street parking.

Another thing I cannot understand is the that they require the full
fee for the planning permission. For £110 you could make an addition
(extension, conservatory etc) but for change of use the full rate is
levied.....why?


--
gee six jay en

Replace the words with the numbers to email me

x-no-archive: yes
Jizzy_Lizzy wrote in message
om...
A while ago I submitted a building control notice to convert my
attached garage into living space (Utility room and study). Shortly
afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying that I
needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee of
£220!).

At around the same time the documents came through from the solictor
(we had just bought this house) and the original planning permission
granted for the 2-storey extension that contains the garage (ground
floor Kitchen + Garage, 1st Floor Bedroom) had a condition attached to
it that the garage must remain a garage to preserve on-site parking.

What led me to believe I could convert the garage in the first place
was the presence in the locality (on my street and adjacent roads) of
other properties where similar works had been carried out.

Does anyone have any experience of dealing with planning departments /
getting conditions removed or establishing planning precedents?

Another thing I cannot understand is the that they require the full
fee for the planning permission. For £110 you could make an addition
(extension, conservatory etc) but for change of use the full rate is
levied.....why?

Thanks

It's not a change of use you'd be applyiing for (the use is still
'residential') but for a variation of the Condition (= restriction) on the
original planning permission that states th garage must stay as a garage.
The council is right to say this needs permission, but they've got the fee
wrong - the fee for this type of application is £110 - ask them to check
again and show you the relevant bit in the Fees Regs (not their own
leaflets).

These days the government (& therefore councils) are urged to reduce parking
provision (in a vain attempt to reduce car use & car ownership) and so you
should have no difficulty in getting planning permission to have the
condition lifted - the Condition was imposed in the days of diferent
government policy.

Alternative would be to go ahead without planning permission and see if they
take enforcement action (extremely unlikely - the remedy would be to make
you put the room back into use as a garage - contrary to govt policy these
days), and in any event you'd have a right of appeal (for whcih you'd have
to pay £110 to the Planning Inspectorate!) and the chances are the council's
objection would be overruled. Telling the council about local precedents
(send photos to them) whether they are authroised or not, will help you.

So long as you still have one off-street parking space or garage you should
have no problem.

Shortly afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying
that I needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee
of £220!).

Odd. When I was considering converting my garage, the council said that it
did need planning permission to remove a restriction on conversion made when
the estate was built. However, they said that as it would otherwise not
require permission, that the fee would be entirely waived.

Apparently, their plan calls for two off street parking spaces for every
house of this size. The defined a parking space as being 2.4m x 4.8m. The
drive was only 9m long, hence 60cm too short. We would probably have got
permission, but moved house before the conversion.

We were planning to get an ultra large scale plan from the OS and photocopy
it at a few % enlargement and write "Not to scale" on it. We were advised to
do this by a builder friend, who said it often worked and wasn't illegal.
The planning bods would normally ignore the "not to scale" marking and read
distances off with a ruler.

Even so, I suspect permission would have been granted even if they knew the
length.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote

We were planning to get an ultra large scale plan from the OS and photocopy
it at a few % enlargement and write "Not to scale" on it.

LOL! That's good one - I'm going to remember that, cheers. But, from
experience, the OS digital plans are quite inaccurate anyway. Many times I've
measured an existing building, drawn it in AutoCAD and then found it won't fit
on the OS site plan!

Peter

In article , Peter Taylor wrote:
LOL! That's good one - I'm going to remember that, cheers. But, from
experience, the OS digital plans are quite inaccurate anyway. Many
times I've measured an existing building, drawn it in AutoCAD and then
found it won't fit on the OS site plan!

I had to sort out some lease plans last year and didn't trust my surveying
skills 100% so ordered a large scale digital plan as a check. It was not half as
accurate as I expected, and more worryingly omitted various buildings that had
been erected for a good 20 years. Definitely not what I was expecting.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

It was not half as accurate as I expected, and more worryingly omitted
various buildings that had been erected for a good 20 years.

Yes, the OS don't claim otherwise. Basically, the lines established on the
ground hold far more force in a dispute than the lines on the plan, which
frequently just show the intentions of the estate builder before various
issues caused them to change their minds.

Christian.

(Jizzy_Lizzy) wrote in message . com...
A while ago I submitted a building control notice to convert my
attached garage into living space (Utility room and study). Shortly
afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying that I
needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee of
£220!).

[ SNIP ]

You could do what everyone else seems to do. You convert the garage
to the room you want it to be but you leave the front of the garage
untouched.

Inside you have your room and from the street you see an up and over
garage door. You just have to make do with no windows to the front.

Not done this myself but know of at least 2 of these in my street.

"Philip" wrote in message
m...
(Jizzy_Lizzy) wrote in message
. com...
A while ago I submitted a building control notice to convert my
attached garage into living space (Utility room and study). Shortly
afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying that I
needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee of
£220!).

[ SNIP ]

You could do what everyone else seems to do. You convert the garage
to the room you want it to be but you leave the front of the garage
untouched.

Inside you have your room and from the street you see an up and over
garage door. You just have to make do with no windows to the front.

Not done this myself but know of at least 2 of these in my street.
This is very common in my area. No problem unless you want to sell with the
benefit of the extra living area being official ...

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:42:33 +0100, "BillV" wrote:


"Philip" wrote in message
om...
(Jizzy_Lizzy) wrote in message
.com...
A while ago I submitted a building control notice to convert my
attached garage into living space (Utility room and study). Shortly
afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying that I
needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee of
£220!).

[ SNIP ]

You could do what everyone else seems to do. You convert the garage
to the room you want it to be but you leave the front of the garage
untouched.

Inside you have your room and from the street you see an up and over
garage door. You just have to make do with no windows to the front.

Not done this myself but know of at least 2 of these in my street.
This is very common in my area. No problem unless you want to sell with the
benefit of the extra living area being official ...

Only a problem if you sell within the period (4 years?) before which you effectively get permission
by default if there are no objections - ( I think this may increase to 10 years if permission has
previously been refused)

Only a problem if you sell within the period (4 years?) before which
you effectively get permission by default if there are no objections

Assuming it is not a listed building or in a conservation area you can apply
for a certificate of lawfulness.

- ( I think this may increase to 10 years if permission has
previously been refused)

Not so.

(Jizzy_Lizzy) wrote in message . com...
A while ago I submitted a building control notice to convert my
attached garage into living space (Utility room and study). Shortly
afterwards I received a letter from the planning office saying that I
needed to apply for planning permission (with plans + full fee of
£220!).

At around the same time the documents came through from the solictor
(we had just bought this house) and the original planning permission
granted for the 2-storey extension that contains the garage (ground
floor Kitchen + Garage, 1st Floor Bedroom) had a condition attached to
it that the garage must remain a garage to preserve on-site parking.

What led me to believe I could convert the garage in the first place
was the presence in the locality (on my street and adjacent roads) of
other properties where similar works had been carried out.

Does anyone have any experience of dealing with planning departments /
getting conditions removed or establishing planning precedents?

Another thing I cannot understand is the that they require the full
fee for the planning permission. For £110 you could make an addition
(extension, conservatory etc) but for change of use the full rate is
levied.....why?

Thanks


To most people it would be of far more value to have the 2 floor
extension instead, future buyers included. And if you dont use your PP
you lose it.

Could you not do a skeleton build? Might not suit your purposes, or
maybe it would? By skeleton build I mean put up what you have to, and
thats it. No fitted kitchen, no plaster, no nothing: just space.


Regards, NT

In article ,
"Christian McArdle" writes:

Apparently, their plan calls for two off street parking spaces for every
house of this size. The defined a parking space as being 2.4m x 4.8m. The
drive was only 9m long, hence 60cm too short. We would probably have got
permission, but moved house before the conversion.

It's the same sort of thing in my area. I watched the planning process
for two new houses just up my road. These were 4 bedroom houses (must
be small bedrooms). They each required 2 off-street parking places, one
of which must be suitable for a disabled driver to load/unload their own
wheelchair and access the house (in effect, an extra-wide parking space).
This was satisfied in this case with a single garage built in to the house,
set back far enough for another parking space to be the driveway.
In practice, they use the garage as storage, and the extra wide parking
space for two cars.

However, the planning people aren't consistent. In the meeting, one of
the councillors asked the others "we don't require a driveway capable of
turning round a car off-road do we?", to which the others answered "no".
I have the planning permission for my house, 2 doors down the road,
which states that the drive must be large enough to enable a car to be
turned around off-road. So you get different rules made up for different
planning applications on the spur of the moment.

Actually, it was interesting to see how many mistakes were made in
building these two houses. When the walls were up to about 3' high,
they realised the garage was narrower than permitted (the minimum
size was to allow a car and two bicycles to be fitted in). This went
back to a planning meeting, and they were allowed to continue providing
garden sheds were built suitable for holding 2 bicycles, so these
two houses have a planning requirement to have garden sheds of a certain
minimum size. The house plans included chimneys from fireplaces in the
living room. They were not building these and went back to have them
removed from the plans, which was refused, so the chimney's had to be
built.

Planning permission also required a number of the trees and hedges
around the plot to be retained. These had already been ripped up by the
time planning permission was granted (probably at the instant anyone got
some hint their retention was going to be required), but no one seemed
to do anything about that.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote
| However, the planning people aren't consistent. In the meeting,
| one of the councillors asked the others "we don't require a
| driveway capable of turning round a car off-road do we?", to
| which the others answered "no".
| I have the planning permission for my house, 2 doors down the road,
| which states that the drive must be large enough to enable a car
| to be turned around off-road. So you get different rules made up
| for different planning applications on the spur of the moment.

I think it is a consistent rule, but depends on the type of road. If it's a
residential / housing estate road it's okay to reverse onto the road, but if
it's a main road it isn't - I've heard of houses having a turntable in the
drive to meet this requirement.

Discrepancy on the same road, I'm not sure - is your drive nearer a junction
perhaps.

Owain