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In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I've 2 plumbers in the family and they rarely use copper and only in the
circumstances you and I mention. far too much faffing about, especially
when time is money, especially OPM (other peoples money)


Seems like a good reason to DIY, where time isn't money.
The heating system I installed 3 years ago is all copper,
with end-feed soldered joints. (It was last drained and
filled 2 years ago, and has not needed topping up since.)


Yup. Surely the main reason to DIY is to get the best possible end result
*and* save money?

Copper tube with solder fittings is cheaper than push fit plastic - and
*proved* to last a lifetime and more.

This is not so though Dave, the only plumbing failures I have had in my
current house are pin holes in the copper pipe. I think the influx of
cheap imported copper in the last few years is a bit of a time bomb, you
must have compared wall thicknesses? some of this imported pipe must be
difficult to bend without getting a kink, its so thin.
--
David
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In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
wrote:
Open any plumbers van these days and you will find them full of plastic,
the norm is to use plastic where they can, copper where its visible or
necessary (rad tails etc)


Well, yes, but then they don't have to live in the house - or worry about
things lasting more than a year or so.

Come on Dave, these aren't just fly by night plumbers who rip-em-off and
run-off, these are reputable companies that *will* put things right if
they go wrong, the two houses going up behind me are being built to a
very high standard with lots of extra touches going in that the
purchasers won't even know about, the company doing the plumbing are a
firm that get all their work through recommendation, they use plastic
extensively. We've just had a new boiler installed and some extra
pipework put in at our local village hall, we asked a lot of questions
before settling on a company to do it to make sure we had quality of
workmanship and guarantees in place that meant something, the only place
they used copper was where the pipe was visible, the owner of the
company (who I got to know well) told me that plastic has become the
norm for him, this is another company that gets work through
recommendation. I don't believe that these companies are risking their
reputations by using materials that will fail after a year, they have
been around for many years and expect to be around for a lot more.


--
David
  #44   Report Post  
[news]
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Open any plumbers van these days and you will find them full of plastic,
the norm is to use plastic where they can, copper where its visible or
necessary (rad tails etc)


Well, yes, but then they don't have to live in the house - or worry about
things lasting more than a year or so.


plastic has been used below gound for years, where's it's really inconvenient
to just pop another elbow on, hasn't it ? so plastic can be shown to be effective
and your theory of joints lasting no more than a year or so doesn't scan.

plastic and pushfit has been around long enough for it's longevity to be proven
and it's benefits, in some cases, far outweigh that of copper.


RT



  #45   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
[news] wrote:
Well, yes, but then they don't have to live in the house - or worry
about things lasting more than a year or so.


plastic has been used below gound for years, where's it's really
inconvenient to just pop another elbow on, hasn't it ? so plastic can be
shown to be effective and your theory of joints lasting no more than a
year or so doesn't scan.


So you're saying that the pipe used underground is the same and uses the
same sort of connectors?

plastic and pushfit has been around long enough for it's longevity to be
proven and it's benefits, in some cases, far outweigh that of copper.


I'm not denying it has its uses and may well be easier to use for those
without the skills to work copper. Or those doing it for a living where
speed is more important than cost.

But the point I'm trying to make is that for DIY where speed shouldn't be
such a factor and the satisfaction of a job well done should come into the
equation, taking the time to learn the few skills needed for working
copper pays off in a neater job.

YMMV, of course.

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #46   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
wrote:
This is not so though Dave, the only plumbing failures I have had in my
current house are pin holes in the copper pipe. I think the influx of
cheap imported copper in the last few years is a bit of a time bomb, you
must have compared wall thicknesses? some of this imported pipe must be
difficult to bend without getting a kink, its so thin.


The only pin hole I ever had was in an end feed fitting bought as part of
a bulk pack from Wicks.

So I only now buy tube and fittings from my local PM.

I've not had problems with tube kinking using a decent pipe bender.

--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #47   Report Post  
[news]
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
[news] wrote:
Well, yes, but then they don't have to live in the house - or worry
about things lasting more than a year or so.


plastic has been used below gound for years, where's it's really
inconvenient to just pop another elbow on, hasn't it ? so plastic can be
shown to be effective and your theory of joints lasting no more than a
year or so doesn't scan.


So you're saying that the pipe used underground is the same and uses the
same sort of connectors?


no, but I will for you. it'll give you something else to argue about.

plastic and pushfit has been around long enough for it's longevity to be
proven and it's benefits, in some cases, far outweigh that of copper.


I'm not denying it has its uses and may well be easier to use for those
without the skills to work copper. Or those doing it for a living where
speed is more important than cost.


But the point I'm trying to make


the point you were trying to make was clear for all to see, the joint will fail,
won't 'last a year or so' which is so obviously wrong.


RT





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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
[news] wrote:
the point you were trying to make was clear for all to see, the joint
will fail, won't 'last a year or so' which is so obviously wrong.


My point was that the parameters a pro uses for assessing a product aren't
necessarily the same as mine, and I'm just a DIYer, and this a DIY group.

You only need to look at the number of crap boilers recommended by pros
because they get the best deal on them. And because they stick to one
makes it easier to install without thinking. For example.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #49   Report Post  
 
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In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
wrote:
This is not so though Dave, the only plumbing failures I have had in my
current house are pin holes in the copper pipe. I think the influx of
cheap imported copper in the last few years is a bit of a time bomb, you
must have compared wall thicknesses? some of this imported pipe must be
difficult to bend without getting a kink, its so thin.


The only pin hole I ever had was in an end feed fitting bought as part of
a bulk pack from Wicks.

So I only now buy tube and fittings from my local PM.

I've not had problems with tube kinking using a decent pipe bender.

Yes I also only buy pipe from merchants now (after realising the
difference) but the copper that the builder used to plumb my house is
definitely of a poor quality, the comment about kinking was just a
thought but if you're not using the thin stuff anyway its not applicable
to you anyway
--
David
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In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
[news] wrote:
Well, yes, but then they don't have to live in the house - or worry
about things lasting more than a year or so.


plastic has been used below gound for years, where's it's really
inconvenient to just pop another elbow on, hasn't it ? so plastic can be
shown to be effective and your theory of joints lasting no more than a
year or so doesn't scan.


So you're saying that the pipe used underground is the same and uses the
same sort of connectors?

plastic and pushfit has been around long enough for it's longevity to be
proven and it's benefits, in some cases, far outweigh that of copper.


I'm not denying it has its uses and may well be easier to use for those
without the skills to work copper. Or those doing it for a living where
speed is more important than cost.

But the point I'm trying to make is that for DIY where speed shouldn't be
such a factor and the satisfaction of a job well done should come into the
equation, taking the time to learn the few skills needed for working
copper pays off in a neater job.

The inference here is that we plastic users are not doing a proper job
by using plastic, I don't agree but I can't see our opinions changing by
arguing it here so I guess we can just agree to differ, unless you want
to change your mind? :-)
--
David


  #51   Report Post  
John
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
This is not so though Dave, the only plumbing failures I have had in my
current house are pin holes in the copper pipe. I think the influx of
cheap imported copper in the last few years is a bit of a time bomb, you
must have compared wall thicknesses? some of this imported pipe must be
difficult to bend without getting a kink, its so thin.


The only pin hole I ever had was in an end feed fitting bought as part of
a bulk pack from Wicks.


You are lucky Dave. - I spent several hours on a job last week cutting out
and renewing lengths of steadily perforating 28mm copper pipe under a
bedroom floor, which was said to have been installed during refurbishment
about fifteen years ago. Little green spots were developing about every
500mm along its length and a few were dribbling water. The householder
assured me it was a heating pipe so having tied up the ball valve and
drained the boiler the dribbling continued unabated. Ho ho we thought there
must be a trapped drop section so having arranged a collection bowl and
bucket I started to rotate a pipeslice. A jet of water appeared so I stopped
cutting and started collecting water. Having filled the bowl I emptied it
into the bucket and he took the bucket away to empty while I held the bowl
again. Several buckets later I asked him to go and tie up the other ball
valve and run the bath taps to drain the Cold water tank in case the
cylinder coil was holed. The taps ran dry while I continued to collect water
and the flow continued unabated. Another forty or so buckets after that with
the water coming out getting steadily hotter the water flow finally stopped.
After doing the job and untying the heating F&E ball valve the heating
system filled up but the offending pipe remained empty. Untying the other
ball valve resulted in the pipe cooling rapidly as it filled with cold water
and creeping about in voids and under cupboards to trace it I found it was a
long supply pipe from the loft tank to the cylinder but via a convoluted
route.
Oh how I do love old houses where standard methods are the exception rather
than the norm!


  #52   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
John wrote:
The only pin hole I ever had was in an end feed fitting bought as part of
a bulk pack from Wicks.


You are lucky Dave. - I spent several hours on a job last week cutting
out and renewing lengths of steadily perforating 28mm copper pipe under
a bedroom floor, which was said to have been installed during
refurbishment about fifteen years ago. Little green spots were
developing about every 500mm along its length and a few were dribbling
water.


Wonder what the problem was? Chemical reaction or impurities in the
'copper'?

--
*Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #53   Report Post  
Andrew Gabriel
 
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In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Seems like a good reason to DIY, where time isn't money.
The heating system I installed 3 years ago is all copper,
with end-feed soldered joints. (It was last drained and
filled 2 years ago, and has not needed topping up since.)


Yup. Surely the main reason to DIY is to get the best possible end result
*and* save money?


In my case just to get the best possible end result.
With regards to money, I often end up buying more expensive
materials to get a better end result, since I'm not spending
money on a tradesman. In the case of this heating system, I
went for a condensing boiler (when they were a lot less
popular than they now are) with oversized radiators, and
the radiators themselves were more expensive and stylish
than the cheapest I could have bought, and the system is
zoned. I could probably have got the cheapest possible
system installed by a tradesman for much the same price I
paid for the parts alone, but I got a very much better
system for that money instead, to exactly my spec and my
required workmanship quality. That's why I DIY (and I enjoy
too, obviously).

Copper tube with solder fittings is cheaper than push fit plastic - and
*proved* to last a lifetime and more.


It does have an excellent track record.

--
Andrew Gabriel
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Andy Wade
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Wonder what the problem was? Chemical reaction or impurities in the
'copper'?


The following is copied from
http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/pub33/33_2000.pdf

Pitting Corrosion of Copper Tubes
---------------------------------
It should be emphasised that the number of copper
tubes affected by pitting corrosion is an extremely small
percentage of the total amount manufactured and
installed in the United Kingdom. The majority of copper
tubes give satisfactory service over many years. Two
forms of corrosion to which copper tubes are
susceptible under specific circumstances are recognised
and described in the literature.

A1 Carbon film
--------------
This form of pitting, sometimes referred to as ‘Type 1’,
corrosion can cause premature failure in copper cold
water pipes carrying hard or moderately hard deep well
waters. Two factors are involved in this form of attack.
Firstly the water must be capable of supporting it:
organic matter found in surface derived water provides
inhibition against attack, and only deep well waters can
support it. Secondly, attack occurs only when a thin film
of carbon is formed within the bore of the tube during
the manufacturing process. The cleaning processes now
used by major manufacturers ensure that copper tubes
meet the requirements of BS EN 1057 concerning the
absence of deleterious films in the bore.

A2 Hot, soft water
------------------
This type of pitting corrosion, sometimes referred to as
‘Type 2’, is extremely rare in the United Kingdom: it
seldom causes failure in less than about ten years.
Carbon films are not a factor in this type of attack. It
occurs in hot water pipes in some soft water areas
specifically if the operating temperature is above 60oC.
This should be borne in mind when specifying higher
temperatures in an attempt to eliminate problems
associated with Legionnaires’ Disease. (See also section
on Commissioning and Appendix E).

A3 Flux
-------
Excessive use of flux resulting in flux runs within the
bore of the tube may cause corrosion and should be
avoided. Hence the need to use fluxes sparingly and
according to manufacturers instructions.
/copy

--
Andy
  #55   Report Post  
 
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In article , Andy Wade
writes
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Wonder what the problem was? Chemical reaction or impurities in the
'copper'?


The following is copied from
http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/pub33/33_2000.pdf

Pitting Corrosion of Copper Tubes
---------------------------------
It should be emphasised that the number of copper
tubes affected by pitting corrosion is an extremely small
percentage of the total amount manufactured and
installed in the United Kingdom.


bit ambiguous that, does it mean that it doesn't include imported copper
tube? I understand the thin walled stuff is all manufactured overseas

The majority of copper
tubes give satisfactory service over many years. Two
forms of corrosion to which copper tubes are
susceptible under specific circumstances are recognised
and described in the literature.

A1 Carbon film
--------------
This form of pitting, sometimes referred to as €˜Type 1,
corrosion can cause premature failure in copper cold
water pipes carrying hard or moderately hard deep well
waters. Two factors are involved in this form of attack.
Firstly the water must be capable of supporting it:
organic matter found in surface derived water provides
inhibition against attack, and only deep well waters can
support it. Secondly, attack occurs only when a thin film
of carbon is formed within the bore of the tube during
the manufacturing process. The cleaning processes now
used by major manufacturers ensure that copper tubes
meet the requirements of BS EN 1057 concerning the
absence of deleterious films in the bore.

This sounds like my problem, not sure about the deep well waters though
but we're certainly hard around here

A2 Hot, soft water
------------------
This type of pitting corrosion, sometimes referred to as
€˜Type 2, is extremely rare in the United Kingdom: it
seldom causes failure in less than about ten years.
Carbon films are not a factor in this type of attack. It
occurs in hot water pipes in some soft water areas
specifically if the operating temperature is above 60oC.
This should be borne in mind when specifying higher
temperatures in an attempt to eliminate problems
associated with Legionnaires Disease. (See also section
on Commissioning and Appendix E).

A3 Flux
-------
Excessive use of flux resulting in flux runs within the
bore of the tube may cause corrosion and should be
avoided. Hence the need to use fluxes sparingly and
according to manufacturers instructions.
/copy


--
David


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John
 
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"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Wonder what the problem was? Chemical reaction or impurities in the
'copper'?


The following is copied from
http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/pub33/33_2000.pdf

Pitting Corrosion of Copper Tubes


SNIP

I don't think any of the options described in the article fitted with the
pipe I dealt with. It carried cold water from a loft tank where oxygenation
could take effect, it wasn't down to soft water since ours is pretty hard,
and some of the pits formed at the top of the tube where carried over flux
is unlikely to deposit although some of them were at the sides and the
bottom.

I'd say free particles of a contaminant such as iron in the copper would be
a more logical cause

John


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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
John wrote:
I'd say free particles of a contaminant such as iron in the copper would
be a more logical cause


Presumably then that tube wouldn't meet the appropriate BS?

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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John
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
I'd say free particles of a contaminant such as iron in the copper would
be a more logical cause


Presumably then that tube wouldn't meet the appropriate BS?


Probably not but IIRC there was a choice of cheap imported (Polish I think)
stuff or none at all at the time so it was used. Its only after a number of
years that the chickens are coming home to roost

There was a mild steel tube also produced which had exact dimension match
for the non available copper and lots of this went into heating systems.
That was said to be OK as long as the system was dosed against corrosion and
I still come across bits from time to time.


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John
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
I'd say free particles of a contaminant such as iron in the copper
would be a more logical cause


Presumably then that tube wouldn't meet the appropriate BS?



Probably not but IIRC there was a choice of cheap imported (Polish I
think) stuff or none at all at the time so it was used. Its only after
a number of years that the chickens are coming home to roost


But surely the copper shortage was many, many, years ago? Rhodesia
declaring UDI in the Harold Wilson era?


Whatever the reason Dave it became "bad to get hold of" at odd times since,
and yes I recall the shortage you mention which affected everything and
resulted in a lot of aluminium cable being sold. There were various failures
with surface corrosion and "Copperclad Aluminium conductor" small sized
cable was introduced but it seems to have died out again fairly soon after.
Large CSA cables and busbars employing aluminium are still used today but it
requires competent installation.


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