Inspired by the thread "Corgi's [sic] and electrics".

The question is, do tradesmen need to be renaissance men (women)? I'm
not really talking about largeish companies here where they can afford
to have one or two "competent persons" on their staff who (in theory)
check the work of others, but of the one-, two-, and three-man bands who
seem to do the bulk of small to medium household work in this country.

Example: Installing a new boiler invariably involves at least some
electrical work.

Will the CORGI exams in years to come involve electrical work? Do they
at the moment? If electrical work is to become regulated in the same way
as gas and high-presure plumbing (part P) then they must. Either that,
or you get into the realm of a gas man having to get his electrical work
checked by someone competent. If that is the case then it makes just as
much sense for the householder competent with a soldering iron and a
screwdriver to do all his own work and get both the plumbing and the
electrics checked afterwards.

What about builders? Most household building work will involve either
plumbing or electrical work (or both), even if it is simply moving a
socket or a radiator from one wall to another. When was the last time
you saw a CORGI or NICEIC-registered general builder?

What about electricians? An electrician called in to do a (relatively)
minor job may see all sorts of infringements of building regulations.
How far should/can he go down this route? I'm thinking in particular
here of the thorny issue of ventillation, particularly of bathrooms.
Yes, I have had a problem along these lines lately.

Sorry, just a bunch of questions, but it might be the start of an
interesting discussion...

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... I can't believe my computer's on fire.

In article ,
Martin Angove wrote:
Inspired by the thread "Corgi's [sic] and electrics".

The question is, do tradesmen need to be renaissance men (women)? I'm
not really talking about largeish companies here where they can afford
to have one or two "competent persons" on their staff who (in theory)
check the work of others, but of the one-, two-, and three-man bands who
seem to do the bulk of small to medium household work in this country.

Seems to me that if a 'plumber' can do the wiring on an average heating
installation so it 'works', it's pure laziness or meanness if he makes a
botch of the job.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:00:28 +0100, Martin Angove
strung together this:

Will the CORGI exams in years to come involve electrical work? Do they
at the moment?

I thought basic electrical skills were included in the CORGI training
at ther mo, can't remember which module off hand.

When was the last time
you saw a CORGI or NICEIC-registered general builder?

Some of the larger property maintenance types sometimes are, but in
general you're correct, builders on the whole aren't registered as
being plumbers, gas or electrical engineers.

What about electricians? An electrician called in to do a (relatively)
minor job may see all sorts of infringements of building regulations.
How far should/can he go down this route? I'm thinking in particular
here of the thorny issue of ventillation, particularly of bathrooms.
Yes, I have had a problem along these lines lately.

Usually it gets thrown back to the builder, of course if it's an old
installation then building regs don't apply.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:00:28 +0100, Martin Angove wrote:

Inspired by the thread "Corgi's [sic] and electrics".

The question is, do tradesmen need to be renaissance men (women)? I'm
not really talking about largeish companies here where they can afford
to have one or two "competent persons" on their staff who (in theory)
check the work of others, but of the one-, two-, and three-man bands who
seem to do the bulk of small to medium household work in this country.

Example: Installing a new boiler invariably involves at least some
electrical work.

Will the CORGI exams in years to come involve electrical work? Do they
at the moment? If electrical work is to become regulated in the same way
as gas and high-presure plumbing (part P) then they must. Either that,
or you get into the realm of a gas man having to get his electrical work
checked by someone competent. If that is the case then it makes just as
much sense for the householder competent with a soldering iron and a
screwdriver to do all his own work and get both the plumbing and the
electrics checked afterwards.

What about builders? Most household building work will involve either
plumbing or electrical work (or both), even if it is simply moving a
socket or a radiator from one wall to another. When was the last time
you saw a CORGI or NICEIC-registered general builder?

What about electricians? An electrician called in to do a (relatively)
minor job may see all sorts of infringements of building regulations.
How far should/can he go down this route? I'm thinking in particular
here of the thorny issue of ventillation, particularly of bathrooms.
Yes, I have had a problem along these lines lately.

Sorry, just a bunch of questions, but it might be the start of an
interesting discussion...


AFAIK there is some scheme emerging from CORGI to offer some sort of minor
electrical registration for gas fitters so they will be able to work on
heating controls is kitchens & bathrooms from next April.

I confess to having wired up one system using two power supplies.
One in the airing cupboard from a 3A FCU which used to supply the boiler,
in the kitchen, via a three core flex.
One new one in the kitchen to _power_ the boiler and use the original flex
to operate the boiler from its low-voltage link terminals to the micro
switches of the zone valves in the airing cupboard.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:00:28 +0100, Martin Angove
strung together this:

Will the CORGI exams in years to come involve electrical work? Do they
at the moment?

I thought basic electrical skills were included in the CORGI training
at ther mo, can't remember which module off hand.

Not in the ACS IIRC, but thre is a chapteron electrics in Treloar's
'Plumbing' which is the text for NVQ plumbing so it'll be part of a formal
Plumbing training.

CORGI are applying to be allowed to run a scheme to certify registered gas
installers to be able to self-certify the electrical work they do as part of
their gas work, under part L.


When was the last time
you saw a CORGI or NICEIC-registered general builder?

I've seen CORGI reg chimney sweeps.

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I confess to having wired up one system using two power supplies. One in
the airing cupboard from a 3A FCU which used to supply the boiler, in
the kitchen, via a three core flex. One new one in the kitchen to
_power_ the boiler and use the original flex to operate the boiler from
its low-voltage link terminals to the micro switches of the zone valves
in the airing cupboard.

With low voltage links between the programmer and boiler this would be
fine. The problem occurs when 230 volts can be fed from 'either end'. The
important thing is to make sure isolation from mains is provided for
service purposes.

--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes

AFAIK there is some scheme emerging from CORGI to offer some sort of minor
electrical registration for gas fitters so they will be able to work on
heating controls is kitchens & bathrooms from next April.

This must be a good move.
As I have said here before I employed a corgi fitter to install a boiler
for me and do a small amount of pipe work and I could not fault his work
except for his electric's. He had used 1mm T&E for a control line and
used the E as a switched live! This I found some years later when
re-routing some cables.
--
Bill

In article , Bill wrote:
He had used 1mm T&E for a control line and
used the E as a switched live!

Cowboy. He should have done the job like a true pro with 3-core flex
g

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
Bill wrote:
He had used 1mm T&E for a control line and
used the E as a switched live! This I found some years later when
re-routing some cables.

That's because he was too mean to buy the correct cable. To the average
plumber, there's no such thing as cable unless it's 1mm TWE or 5 amp flex.
I can't believe any pro doesn't know of the existence of triple and earth
- given that it's also correct for a 'normal' room stat.

At one time, plumbers were also electricians. Perhaps that's why IMM looks
down his nose at plumbers...

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:54:36 +0100, Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Bill wrote:
He had used 1mm T&E for a control line and
used the E as a switched live!

Cowboy. He should have done the job like a true pro with 3-core flex
g

AIUI the 'correct' method is to used T&E when fixed rigidly to the house
and then a short length of flex from a flex outlet into the appliance.

Just about no one ever does it this way though.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:16:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bill wrote:
He had used 1mm T&E for a control line and
used the E as a switched live! This I found some years later when
re-routing some cables.

That's because he was too mean to buy the correct cable. To the average
plumber, there's no such thing as cable unless it's 1mm TWE or 5 amp flex.
I can't believe any pro doesn't know of the existence of triple and earth
- given that it's also correct for a 'normal' room stat.

At one time, plumbers were also electricians. Perhaps that's why IMM looks
down his nose at plumbers...

I've noted that Toolstation are doing some mains rated 6 core flex, I've
whinged at s/fix for not doing it. The worst case I think is 6 cores (5 +
earth which would be needed for a 3-way port. Also you could wire up
a Suprima (spit) (L,N,E, SW-L, Pump L, Pump N) with one cable.

PS OT.
I compared a long list of stuff I was getting in between Tollstation.com
(oops that should be Toolstation but I _like_ that typo 8-) ) and Screwfix.com
It was a mixture of items but a little skewed toward heating controls.

Most things were pence cheaper at ToolStation but some things were pounds
cheaper at S/fix.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:27:05 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I confess to having wired up one system using two power supplies. One in
the airing cupboard from a 3A FCU which used to supply the boiler, in
the kitchen, via a three core flex. One new one in the kitchen to
_power_ the boiler and use the original flex to operate the boiler from
its low-voltage link terminals to the micro switches of the zone valves
in the airing cupboard.

With low voltage links between the programmer and boiler this would be
fine. The problem occurs when 230 volts can be fed from 'either end'. The
important thing is to make sure isolation from mains is provided for
service purposes.

I was aware of the issues and this was less than ideal. My mitigating plea
was that it was mid December the boiler having poured it's contents over
the kitchen a day earlier. The direct route was under a tiled floor and
any other route would have been round the entire house.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I've noted that Toolstation are doing some mains rated 6 core flex, I've
whinged at s/fix for not doing it. The worst case I think is 6 cores (5 +
earth which would be needed for a 3-way port. Also you could wire up
a Suprima (spit) (L,N,E, SW-L, Pump L, Pump N) with one cable.

TLC do both 4 and 5 core heat resistant flex in 0.5mm, and 'ordinary' 7
core 0.75mm. They also sell it in cut lengths, so there's no excuse even
for a one off installation.

It is, of course, slightly more expensive than using two lengths of 3 core
flex...

--
*A hangover is the wrath of grapes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:47:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I've noted that Toolstation are doing some mains rated 6 core flex, I've
whinged at s/fix for not doing it. The worst case I think is 6 cores (5 +
earth which would be needed for a 3-way port. Also you could wire up
a Suprima (spit) (L,N,E, SW-L, Pump L, Pump N) with one cable.

TLC do both 4 and 5 core heat resistant flex in 0.5mm, and 'ordinary' 7
core 0.75mm. They also sell it in cut lengths, so there's no excuse even
for a one off installation.

It is, of course, slightly more expensive than using two lengths of 3 core
flex...

This issue for me is that I want to avoid deleivery charges on orders and
also avoid 'shopping' as much as I can during work hours.

From my point of view it is better to have one just one online supplier so
I can manage things to always be able to make a big enough order when I
need something quickish.

BES have now introduced £30 quid minimum.
Tollstation are £50 minimum.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
TLC do both 4 and 5 core heat resistant flex in 0.5mm, and 'ordinary'
7 core 0.75mm. They also sell it in cut lengths, so there's no excuse
even for a one off installation.

It is, of course, slightly more expensive than using two lengths of 3
core flex...

This issue for me is that I want to avoid deleivery charges on orders and
also avoid 'shopping' as much as I can during work hours.

Yes - it was more meant as a point of information for others reading here.

From my point of view it is better to have one just one online supplier
so I can manage things to always be able to make a big enough order when
I need something quickish.

BES have now introduced £30 quid minimum.
Tollstation are £50 minimum.

I've usually little trouble making up the minimum charge with these sort
of firms - unfortunately as I'm paying myself. ;-)

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.