Next door's foghorn
 

Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

What is worrying us is that the vibrations are coming up through our
separate mains and making our pipework vibrate quite seriously. My feet
can feel it through our concrete floor several feet away from where our
main comes up. Despite the two pipes splitting several metres away and
being underground.

They have had it suggested to them (by someone) that their stopcock
needs replacing, but I can't quite get my head around what could be
wrong to make this amount of noise and vibration. It does not seem to
occur every time that they draw any water - but only from time to time.
Oddly, always sometime around 18:00 to 18:30 and going on for anything
from a minute to maybe quarter of an hour. The only mechanism that I can
think of that could make this noise is water being forced back through a
dodgy non-return valve.

We would like it sorted and reckon that our best way of achieving it is
to point out to their landlords that there is some danger (if there
really is). Otherwise we might have to live with it for several weeks
until arse is gotten into gear.

Any suggestions on what is really happening here?

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

Next door's foghorn
 

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

What is worrying us is that the vibrations are coming up through our
separate mains and making our pipework vibrate quite seriously. My feet
can feel it through our concrete floor several feet away from where our
main comes up. Despite the two pipes splitting several metres away and
being underground.

They have had it suggested to them (by someone) that their stopcock
needs replacing, but I can't quite get my head around what could be
wrong to make this amount of noise and vibration. It does not seem to
occur every time that they draw any water - but only from time to time.
Oddly, always sometime around 18:00 to 18:30 and going on for anything
from a minute to maybe quarter of an hour. The only mechanism that I can
think of that could make this noise is water being forced back through a
dodgy non-return valve.

We would like it sorted and reckon that our best way of achieving it is
to point out to their landlords that there is some danger (if there
really is). Otherwise we might have to live with it for several weeks
until arse is gotten into gear.

Any suggestions on what is really happening here?

Rod


We had a neighbour a few years back with the same problem as this, and the
plumber found out it was the rubber washer in the main stopcock had fallen off
the head gear. It was vibrating like a reed on a clarinet, right through all
the pipework in the area. The houses we lived in were all timber construction
and the vibrations used to shake the whole house. It even caused ripples across
the top of the pool.


---
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Next door's foghorn
 

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

What is worrying us is that the vibrations are coming up through our
separate mains and making our pipework vibrate quite seriously. My feet
can feel it through our concrete floor several feet away from where our
main comes up. Despite the two pipes splitting several metres away and
being underground.

They have had it suggested to them (by someone) that their stopcock
needs replacing, but I can't quite get my head around what could be
wrong to make this amount of noise and vibration. It does not seem to
occur every time that they draw any water - but only from time to time.
Oddly, always sometime around 18:00 to 18:30 and going on for anything
from a minute to maybe quarter of an hour. The only mechanism that I can
think of that could make this noise is water being forced back through a
dodgy non-return valve.

We would like it sorted and reckon that our best way of achieving it is
to point out to their landlords that there is some danger (if there
really is). Otherwise we might have to live with it for several weeks
until arse is gotten into gear.

Any suggestions on what is really happening here?

You say when they are not drawing water? The cold tank may be filling and
they are not aware of this. Tell them to fit a "full bore" mains stop cock.
It could be the ball valve in the tank. Best have both replaced, it should
not happen again.

Next door's foghorn
 

In article , Rod Hewitt
writes
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

This happens in our industrial unit at work. It happens (only sometimes)
when the hot water header tank is filling. It appears to be caused by a
long length of unsupported pipework resonating.

I think changing the ballcock valve in the hot water header tank to a
torbeck type thing (or maybe just a new ballcock valve) would fix it.
--
Tim Mitchell

Next door's foghorn
 

"Tim Mitchell" wrote in message
...
In article , Rod Hewitt
writes
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

This happens in our industrial unit at work. It happens (only sometimes)
when the hot water header tank is filling. It appears to be caused by a
long length of unsupported pipework resonating.

I think changing the ballcock valve in the hot water header tank to a
torbeck type thing (or maybe just a new ballcock valve) would fix it.

And install a shock arrestor.

Next door's foghorn
 

"BigWallop" wrote in message ...
"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

What is worrying us is that the vibrations are coming up through our
separate mains and making our pipework vibrate quite seriously. My feet
can feel it through our concrete floor several feet away from where our
main comes up. Despite the two pipes splitting several metres away and
being underground.

They have had it suggested to them (by someone) that their stopcock
needs replacing, but I can't quite get my head around what could be
wrong to make this amount of noise and vibration. It does not seem to
occur every time that they draw any water - but only from time to time.
Oddly, always sometime around 18:00 to 18:30 and going on for anything
from a minute to maybe quarter of an hour. The only mechanism that I can
think of that could make this noise is water being forced back through a
dodgy non-return valve.

We would like it sorted and reckon that our best way of achieving it is
to point out to their landlords that there is some danger (if there
really is). Otherwise we might have to live with it for several weeks
until arse is gotten into gear.

Any suggestions on what is really happening here?

Rod


We had a neighbour a few years back with the same problem as this, and the
plumber found out it was the rubber washer in the main stopcock had fallen off
the head gear. It was vibrating like a reed on a clarinet, right through all
the pipework in the area. The houses we lived in were all timber construction
and the vibrations used to shake the whole house. It even caused ripples across
the top of the pool.


I had something similar after fitting one of those taps that cuts it's
own hole. The valve in the cold water tank started shrieking when the
tank was filling. Upon dismantling I found a little circle of copper.

MBQ

Next door's foghorn
 

"IMM" wrote in :


You say when they are not drawing water?

No - I wrote this:
"It does not seem to occur every time that they draw any water - but only
from time to time."

I do not follow their habits sufficiently intently to know precisely what
they are doing when it shrieks - but on the basis that many hours go by
without it occurring, it seems safe to assume that they can draw some
water, sometimes, without causing the problem.

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

Next door's foghorn
 

"IMM" wrote in :

And install a shock arrestor.

Maybe the landlord would do this, but I doubt it.

Many thanks for all the responses. At least it doesn't appear to be a
danger.

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

Next door's foghorn
 

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in
:

And install a shock arrestor.

Maybe the landlord would do this, but I doubt it.

Many thanks for all the responses. At least it doesn't appear to be a
danger.

A shock arrestor is only around £10. It is in his interest to install a
full bore ball valve as the problem will not then re-occur.

Next door's foghorn
 

Rod Hewitt wrote in message ...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.

What is worrying us is that the vibrations are coming up through our
separate mains and making our pipework vibrate quite seriously. My feet
can feel it through our concrete floor several feet away from where our
main comes up. Despite the two pipes splitting several metres away and
being underground.

They have had it suggested to them (by someone) that their stopcock
needs replacing, but I can't quite get my head around what could be
wrong to make this amount of noise and vibration. It does not seem to
occur every time that they draw any water - but only from time to time.
Oddly, always sometime around 18:00 to 18:30 and going on for anything
from a minute to maybe quarter of an hour. The only mechanism that I can
think of that could make this noise is water being forced back through a
dodgy non-return valve.

We would like it sorted and reckon that our best way of achieving it is
to point out to their landlords that there is some danger (if there
really is). Otherwise we might have to live with it for several weeks
until arse is gotten into gear.

Any suggestions on what is really happening here?


Water systems can go into resonance, this is whats happening. It comes
down to chance to a fair extent: if the position of any movable bit in
the system (eg a rubber washer) just happens to be such that as the
pipe vibrates the flow changes, and this causes pressure waves that
happen to increase the vibration, then youre in for a foghorn.

Solutions:
1. replace rubber discs in whatever waterflow item is causing the
foghorn. If theyre not aware of drawing water at the time it'll be a
tank / cistern ballcock. Theres no reason to change whole ballcocks.

Often its also poss to stop it by turning a service valve down a bit
to reduce flow to the point where the horn stops. This is a 30 second
job.

As far as the neighbour goes, if the vibration forces from their pipes
cause your pipes to spring a leak and do £10,000 worth of damage,
theyre going to have some problems. Maybe.


Regards, NT

Next door's foghorn
 

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.


It's possibly the toilet filling. One of ours does the same from time to
time. The contributing factors a the age and stiffness of the ball-valve
diphragm (worse when its older and stiffer - as the actress said to the
bishop), the presssure of the water (higher=worse) and the temperature of
the water (colder=worse as the diaphragm gets stiffer) plus, of course, the
resonant capability of the pipework. I changed the ball valve diaphragm once
and it went away for a few months but comes back now when the conditions are
right. It's only occasional now but I would probably add another pipe
bracket somewhere with a rubber sleeve next to change the resonant frequency
of the pipes next if I could be *rsed.

You can generally stop it by opening a mains tap as this drops the pressure
a bit - in fact you can tap out signals by turning it on and off if you've
nothing better to do - try it with next door's!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Next door's foghorn
 

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.


It's possibly the toilet filling. One of ours does the same from time to
time. The contributing factors a the age and stiffness of the
ball-valve
diphragm (worse when its older and stiffer - as the actress said to the
bishop), the presssure of the water (higher=worse) and the temperature of
the water (colder=worse as the diaphragm gets stiffer) plus, of course,
the
resonant capability of the pipework. I changed the ball valve diaphragm
once
and it went away for a few months but comes back now when the conditions
are
right. It's only occasional now but I would probably add another pipe
bracket somewhere with a rubber sleeve next to change the resonant
frequency
of the pipes next if I could be *rsed.

You can generally stop it by opening a mains tap as this drops the
pressure
a bit - in fact you can tap out signals by turning it on and off if you've
nothing better to do - try it with next door's!

Just fit a shock arrestor next to the ball valve and stop messing about.

Next door's foghorn
 

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.


It's possibly the toilet filling. One of ours does the same from time to
time. The contributing factors a the age and stiffness of the
ball-valve
diphragm (worse when its older and stiffer - as the actress said to the
bishop), the presssure of the water (higher=worse) and the temperature
of
the water (colder=worse as the diaphragm gets stiffer) plus, of course,
the
resonant capability of the pipework. I changed the ball valve diaphragm
once
and it went away for a few months but comes back now when the conditions
are
right. It's only occasional now but I would probably add another pipe
bracket somewhere with a rubber sleeve next to change the resonant
frequency
of the pipes next if I could be *rsed.

You can generally stop it by opening a mains tap as this drops the
pressure
a bit - in fact you can tap out signals by turning it on and off if
you've
nothing better to do - try it with next door's!

Just fit a shock arrestor next to the ball valve and stop messing about.

Firstly, I'm not messing about (well, other than by posting a reply) - if
you read the text above you'll see I'm not doing anything, the severity of
the problem not warranting it!

Secondly, the shock arresters are for water hammer, which generally occurs
on tank/ball valve arrangements where the resonance occurs when the ball
float moves up and down due to water ingress which moves the valve causing a
spurt of water which causes the float to move etc., etc. or where pipes
feeding mains taps are loose. It is not clear to me that the shock arrester
would be effective for higher frequency resonances set up in
diaphragms/washers, whic arren't really "hammer". Using an electrical
analogy, the shock arrester adds a capacitive-resistive element to the
circuit. It's size and shape will determine the range of frequencies it
filters out.

Thirdly, they are reasonably sized devices and the area under the toilet
cistern inquestion is somewhat cramped so I probably couldn't get one in if
I wanted (at least, not neatly).


--
Bob Mannix

Next door's foghorn
 

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water
supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it
I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.


It's possibly the toilet filling. One of ours does the same from time
to
time. The contributing factors a the age and stiffness of the
ball-valve
diphragm (worse when its older and stiffer - as the actress said to
the
bishop), the presssure of the water (higher=worse) and the temperature
of
the water (colder=worse as the diaphragm gets stiffer) plus, of
course,
the
resonant capability of the pipework. I changed the ball valve
diaphragm
once
and it went away for a few months but comes back now when the
conditions
are
right. It's only occasional now but I would probably add another pipe
bracket somewhere with a rubber sleeve next to change the resonant
frequency
of the pipes next if I could be *rsed.

You can generally stop it by opening a mains tap as this drops the
pressure
a bit - in fact you can tap out signals by turning it on and off if
you've
nothing better to do - try it with next door's!

Just fit a shock arrestor next to the ball valve and stop messing about.

Firstly, I'm not messing about (well, other than by posting a reply) - if
you read the text above you'll see I'm not doing anything, the severity of
the problem not warranting it!

Secondly, the shock arresters are for water hammer, which generally occurs
on tank/ball valve arrangements where the resonance occurs when the ball
float moves up and down due to water ingress which moves the valve causing
a
spurt of water which causes the float to move etc., etc. or where pipes
feeding mains taps are loose. It is not clear to me that the shock
arrester
would be effective for higher frequency resonances set up in
diaphragms/washers, whic arren't really "hammer".

I have never come across a situation with any noise from pipework where they
never cured it.

Thirdly, they are reasonably sized devices and the area under the toilet
cistern inquestion is somewhat cramped so I probably couldn't get one in
if
I wanted (at least, not neatly).

It is best nearest to the offending valve, but they will fully work, in the
vast majority of cases, in any part of the offending pipework. Well in a
domestic house that is. In most cases any shock is taken up by the water
mains itself.

Next door's foghorn
 

"IMM" wrote in message
...
"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...


Well good ol' neighbours. They have a problem with their water supply.
Several times a day it makes an awful noise - trying to describe it I
came up with foghorn - but a bit higher pitched.


IMM's solution to a dodgy rubber washer. Well, why not eh.

Regards, NT