Chris Bacon wrote:
wrote:

ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement
parts
or repair are available for budget tools.

They're cheap. They will do the job. If they blow up before their
guarantee is up, get a refund or replacement. If they don't blow
up,
they may well be OK for a long while. **** This is uk.d-i-y, not
uk.i.come.over.my.expensive.tools!**** This really does need to be
born in mind. Deriding someone who buys an adequate =A330 tool for
a little bit of DIY where a =A3300 one is available is ridiculous.

did someone do that?

No, NT, not really in the FAQ - however the group is, I have noticed
rife with such comment, and I detected a spill-over of
hoity-toityness
in the FAQ which is up for review.

On reflection I think you might possibly be right a little bit. The FAQ
needs to recognise that most diyers actually do buy 'dumbell' quality
tools, and needs to address those just as much as the better q stuff.
The tools I have are a mixture across the quality range, from Very-Best
to what-the-hell-is-that, and I do this for business. They do include
some stuff that has been much scoffed about here, in some cases
rightly, and in some cases quite wrongly. If the faq is going to guide
people on buying tools it does need to be realistic in this respect.

I doubt I'm alone in this, and I'll bet you many who are well into the
subject have a range of kit, covering everything from top notch to
crude. Maybe its changing consumer attitudes these days, and I'm one of
the old school of thinking.

Dont forget as well this faq is for the whole country, not just the
rich areas, but also the places where kids still play in the street
with no shoes, fences are built from scrap or nothing, and shops sell
40 year old power drills for =A33.


No offence, but it's a bit long-
winded and pompous for my taste, too.

Bear in mind that putting it in html format will break it into much
shorter sections, and make it much more digestible.


And all this cock about "Ooh-er, if it goes wrong, you won't be able
to
get spares or service". If you're doing a bit of DIY, it won't matter
much. If you're a tradesman (don't forget this *is* uk.d-i-y) and
your expensive tool breaks, you will be able to get it serviced. If
it's the only one you've got, though, you'll be fsck'd, which is why
the tradesman has two expensive tools, or at least some sort of
backup!

indeed, i just hope it will be said directly and to the point instead
of in 8 paragraphs. If I want to read about tools, I want to read about
tools. Not the state of the building industry, what countries which
tools come from, and not read points 3 times with junk padding.


BTW what on earth are you using for posting these days?

a pigeon.


NT

Old tools turn up for silly prices sometimes, and sometimes are a real
bargain, even though their usefulness is generally more limited.

Another reason for a few words on old tools is that many readers will
have kit from way back when and will want to know what the new stuff
does that the old doesnt. Eg maybe someone has a drill but is having a
problem drilling the concrete walls, they'll want to know what
difference in features they will need to look for in a new drill - and
possibly, as I hinted, what tricks they can use to get the old one to
do it. After all, we did drill everything in the days before hammer
drills.


NT

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:17:27 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Mar 2005 21:24:41 -0800, wrote:

I can't imagine why anybody would want to do business with Argos.

You must lack imagination then, personal experience, or perhaps they see you
coming in.

Why would you imagine that I would want to go into one of their
stores?


They want to be a bricks and mortar retailer and an internet trader
and fail miserably at both

Really? IME out of stock is unusual and they SMS me when its back in,
never experienced a reserved item not reserved, never had a problem
returning duff Challenge gear, or any other items for that matter , home
deliveries always in agreed time band. What's your problem?

None at all really. I simply would never consider doing business with
them. It's a linsey-wolsey company. Neither one thing nor the
other.


M&S OTOH never have my trouser size.

I had that issue with them regarding a shirt. They gave me £10 for
the inconvenience. I hadn't bought anything.

However, I will remember that they went out of their way to redress
the situation and next time I want to buy a shirt, may give them
favourable consideration.



--

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On 9 Mar 2005 17:17:25 -0800, wrote:

dont forget argos. Customer service is incompetent, but prices keen.

Like the Challenge saws for example.

I can't imagine why anybody would want to do business with Argos.
They want to be a bricks and mortar retailer and an internet trader
and fail miserably at both.

Price. Primarily for low end stuff, but also B&D and Bosch SDS for eg.

I never buy on price, so that may well be a reason that I wouldn't
want to go into such a place.

The Burberry hats and dripping gold don't encourage me to want to go
there either.



--

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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:38:10 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

wrote:
ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement parts
or repair are available for budget tools.

They're cheap. They will do the job. If they blow up before their
guarantee is up, get a refund or replacement. If they don't blow up,
they may well be OK for a long while. **** This is uk.d-i-y, not
uk.i.come.over.my.expensive.tools!**** This really does need to be born
in mind. Deriding someone who buys an adequate £30 tool for a little bit
of DIY where a £300 one is available is ridiculous.


No. Once again you are making the assumption that DIY is limited and
cheap.

It may be from your perspective. It is not from that of others who
may have a broader view of what it includes....




--

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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:38:10 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

wrote:
ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement parts
or repair are available for budget tools.

They're cheap. They will do the job. If they blow up before their
guarantee is up, get a refund or replacement. If they don't blow up,
they may well be OK for a long while. **** This is uk.d-i-y, not
uk.i.come.over.my.expensive.tools!**** This really does need to be born
in mind. Deriding someone who buys an adequate £30 tool for a little bit
of DIY where a £300 one is available is ridiculous.

No. Once again you are making the assumption that DIY is limited and
cheap.

It may be from your perspective. It is not from that of others who
may have a broader view of what it includes....

His point is that your view is the only given prominence. There was a whole
thread about your views, attitude and your hyenas.


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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:02:35 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:38:10 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

wrote:
ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement parts
or repair are available for budget tools.

They're cheap. They will do the job. If they blow up before their
guarantee is up, get a refund or replacement. If they don't blow up,
they may well be OK for a long while. **** This is uk.d-i-y, not
uk.i.come.over.my.expensive.tools!**** This really does need to be born
in mind. Deriding someone who buys an adequate £30 tool for a little bit
of DIY where a £300 one is available is ridiculous.

No. Once again you are making the assumption that DIY is limited and
cheap.

It may be from your perspective. It is not from that of others who
may have a broader view of what it includes....

His point is that your view is the only given prominence. There was a whole
thread about your views, attitude and your hyenas.


I think you'll find that overall this provides a balanced view to the
notion that DIY is a thing of limited scale to be done on the cheap.

I am sure that some people do see it that way, and I have no issue
with that notion.

I do have an issue with the assumption that everybody should have a
limited view.

It isn't a matter of which has prominence, since both are valid and
indeed there is a whole spectrum in between.

Have you been visiting the zoo?



--

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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:31:07 +0000, in uk.d-i-y John Rumm
wrote:

wrote:

maybe you can describe 2 typical sole plates, 1 pressed steel 2mm
thick, one cast ali x mm thick. Without this, newbies buying really
havent got any clue how to interpret what constitutes a sufficiently
solid sole plate and what doesnt.

Being on the web and all, we could even include a photo! (or is that
going against the spirit of the FAQ?)

No reason why not if appropriate.

Phil
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:44:12 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Pete C
wrote:

I have the version of this saw without the laser. I've used it and
thought it was fairly good and am quite pleased with it. It came with
an extra finer toothed blade.

The going rate for a cheap saw like the Challenge is around £25-30,
though for £40 you can get an entry level Skil. The Skil only has a
40mm depth of cut, though being smaller is less unwieldy.

I'd like to hear what sort of circular saw people have, what they have
used it for and what it's good/not good at.

Many years ago I bought a B&D circ saw as one of my first bits of DIY
kit. It was flimsy and I soon found its limitations but it served me
well through those learning years when money was tight too. I've now got
a 2.4kw 235mm Triton saw mostly used in their work-cemtre.
http://www.triton.net.au/products/saw_2.html

Still have the old B&D and still occasionally use it for light work to
save dismounting the Triton.

Phil
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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:45:52 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
wrote:

None at all really. I simply would never consider doing business with
them. It's a linsey-wolsey company. Neither one thing nor the
other.

Argos was bought up by GUS a couple of years ago.

Phil

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:12:55 +0000, in uk.d-i-y John Rumm
wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:

It's just that you put the colour in brackets. I (the reader) am not
sure if they just happen to be that colour, or if Bosch etc really call
them their Green Pro Range, or whatever. I don't want to march up to a
trade counter boldly saying "I want an xyz from their green pro range"
only to be told they are yellow this year. Its a trivial point - forget
it.

I would guess if you went into a tool shop and asked for a blue Bosch
they would know what you were on about, if you asked the same question
in Homebase however they may look at you funny (since it should be
obvious that they are all green!) ;-)

Bosch themselves do distinguish quite clearly between the ranges, for an
example see:

http://ukptocs.bosch-pt.com/boptocs-...p?ccat_id=9580
http://www.bosch-pt.com/uk/en/start/...s/Overview.htm

Ah yes, that's clear enough.

Another example:

I wanted a radiator shelf in my dining room that would match the general
shaping of the table etc. This oval ish, but with the occasional little
flourish or pointy bit. I had a nice bit of hardwood ready, and
carefully marked out all the curves such that it would have a bow front,
plus some corner details. At the time the only jigsaw I has was a 30
quid B&D "nothing special" one. It was just about possible to cut out
the shape I had marked, but the finish left much to be desired. since I
was going to be using the edge I had just cut with a bearing guided
cutter on a router it was important to get the quality of the finish as
high as possible since every tiny mark or undulation in the cut surface
would be picked up by the router and copied into the final profile.
Hence many hours of careful sanding were needed to get a surface good
enough to use. Had I have had my Makita jigsaw then it would have been a
very much more straight froward job: cut, quick sand, route.

I wonder if we should distinguish between the DIYer who would be quite
happy using your jig-sawed template for a functional shelf, vs the
hobbyist wood-worker who might regard the shelf as a piece of beautiful
furniture to be carefully crafted. Hobbyists fall between DIY and PRO.
They understand and want pro equipment. Included in this group are hobby
diyers, who do diy for the satisfaction of knowing they can, and don't
want the risk of a getting in a contractor who may cut corners and not
do it quite as he would.

Another class of diyer is one who is pushed into it to save cash or
because he can't find a contractor to do the job, or perhaps does not
know how to specify the job to a pro, or is out at work all week and
doesn't want to leave a contractor alone in his house. He could be the
sort of guy who's wife asks him to put up a curtain rail (say), and
thinks "ok, I should be able to that" rather than grabbing yellow pages
to get a man in.

Wavy cuts are a good example - it is hard to do a long cut that is not
with that type of tool. Part of this is that the lack of blade guide
accuracy means it wanders off line and you need to keep dialling in
adjustments to get back on track. With the better tool, it is that much
better at going where you want it to in the first place. I guess it is a
case with a jigsaw that even small errors in accuracy get multiplied
quite fast by the nature of the thing.

Thanks. I now have Makita (or Bosh) on my wants list :-)

Not possessing a pro jigsaw, just how is a tool-less blade fixed in?

You see the little lugs at the top of the blade:

http://www.axminster.co.uk//images/p...s/T101D_xl.jpg

The jaw mechanism grabs onto those and pulls them into the blade holder.
The jaws are opened by giving a quarter turn to the blade guard, you pop
the blade in the hole, and then release the guard which locks the blade
in under spring tension.

Got it.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:02:35 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:38:10 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

wrote:
ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement parts
or repair are available for budget tools.

They're cheap. They will do the job. If they blow up before their
guarantee is up, get a refund or replacement. If they don't blow up,
they may well be OK for a long while. **** This is uk.d-i-y, not
uk.i.come.over.my.expensive.tools!**** This really does need to be
born
in mind. Deriding someone who buys an adequate £30 tool for a little
bit
of DIY where a £300 one is available is ridiculous.

No. Once again you are making the assumption that DIY is limited and
cheap.

It may be from your perspective. It is not from that of others who
may have a broader view of what it includes....

His point is that your view is the only given prominence. There was a
whole
thread about your views, attitude and your hyenas.


I think you'll find that overall this provides a balanced view to the
notion that DIY is a thing of limited scale to be done on the cheap.

I am sure that some people do see it that way, and I have no issue
with that notion.

I do have an issue with the assumption that everybody should have a
limited view.

The word "prominence". Look it up.


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Pete C wrote:

The going rate for a cheap saw like the Challenge is around =A325-30,
though for =A340 you can get an entry level Skil. The Skil only has a
40mm depth of cut, though being smaller is less unwieldy.

I'd like to hear what sort of circular saw people have, what they
have
used it for and what it's good/not good at.

cheers,
Pete.


People may baulk at this after all the unrealistic comments so far, but
to get real, I've yet to find anything wrong with the challenge ones.
Sure the blades wont give you a perfect edged cut, but they do the job
without problem.

And soleplate flimsy? hardly.

Of course they could be better, but theyre surprisingly good for the
money, and I'd recommend them if you want a low cost circ saw.


NT

Phil Addison wrote:

I wonder if we should distinguish between the DIYer who would be quite
happy using your jig-sawed template for a functional shelf, vs the
hobbyist wood-worker who might regard the shelf as a piece of beautiful
furniture to be carefully crafted. Hobbyists fall between DIY and PRO.
They understand and want pro equipment. Included in this group are hobby
diyers, who do diy for the satisfaction of knowing they can, and don't
want the risk of a getting in a contractor who may cut corners and not
do it quite as he would.

Yup, I think that is good enough to nick for the FAQ, Ta! ;-)

I get the feeling it is probably this catagory of buyer that many people
find hardest to "get".


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:35:54 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:




The word "prominence". Look it up.


With your regular butchery of the English language, I wouldn't suggest
the use of a dictionary to others if I were you....



--

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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:29:05 +0000, in uk.d-i-y John Rumm
wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:

I wonder if we should distinguish between the DIYer who would be quite
happy using your jig-sawed template for a functional shelf, vs the
hobbyist wood-worker who might regard the shelf as a piece of beautiful
furniture to be carefully crafted. Hobbyists fall between DIY and PRO.
They understand and want pro equipment. Included in this group are hobby
diyers, who do diy for the satisfaction of knowing they can, and don't
want the risk of a getting in a contractor who may cut corners and not
do it quite as he would.

Yup, I think that is good enough to nick for the FAQ, Ta! ;-)

YVW

I get the feeling it is probably this catagory of buyer that many people
find hardest to "get".

A discerning lot.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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