DIYbanter - Replacing windows: with/without adding lintels?

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Replacing windows: with/without adding lintels?

Time has come to replace my rotting timber single-glazed windows with modern
uPVC jobs; the only question is whether to diy or (argh) get in a Window
Replacement Company.

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete) lintels
fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't nothing over the
outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I go to a
FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones without
adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle, nobody
will be any the wiser. But if I diy, then I have to go through Building
Control don't I; and you can bet your life they will insist on lintels being
put in.

Is this synopsis about right? Are there 'special' uPVC windows available
which would legitimately obviate the need for fitting this lintel? I'm
looking at selling up pretty soon, so tbh I have to say I don't really have
a vested interest in ensuring the new windows last for 30 years...!

Finally - before I get into WRC plc hell, has anyone got a ballpark figure
for what I might be quoted for a full replacement job? It's a two bedroom
terraced with 7 reasonably large windows.

Cheers
Dave

Wot, nobody got any thoughts on any of this at all? I *am* surprised!!

Dave

"Dave P" wrote in message
...
Time has come to replace my rotting timber single-glazed windows with
modern uPVC jobs; the only question is whether to diy or (argh) get in a
Window Replacement Company.

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete) lintels
fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't nothing over
the outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I go to a
FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones without
adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle, nobody
will be any the wiser. But if I diy, then I have to go through Building
Control don't I; and you can bet your life they will insist on lintels
being put in.

Is this synopsis about right? Are there 'special' uPVC windows available
which would legitimately obviate the need for fitting this lintel? I'm
looking at selling up pretty soon, so tbh I have to say I don't really
have a vested interest in ensuring the new windows last for 30 years...!

Finally - before I get into WRC plc hell, has anyone got a ballpark figure
for what I might be quoted for a full replacement job? It's a two bedroom
terraced with 7 reasonably large windows.

Cheers
Dave

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:57:32 GMT, "Dave P"
wrote:

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete) lintels
fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't nothing over the
outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I go to a
FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones without
adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle, nobody
will be any the wiser.

Thats what happened here, although our inner lintels are timber.
Apparently it was compounded further by replacing the existing timber
windows that had side openers [hence another one or two uprights in
the frame] with upvc windows that had top openers.

That said, the two replacement windows that do have side openers seem
to be holding up well enough [fx: touces wood, throws salt over
shoulder etc]

--

Macie

Dave P wrote:
Time has come to replace my rotting timber single-glazed windows with modern
uPVC jobs; the only question is whether to diy or (argh) get in a Window
Replacement Company.

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete) lintels
fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't nothing over the
outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I go to a
FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones without
adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle, nobody
will be any the wiser. But if I diy, then I have to go through Building
Control don't I; and you can bet your life they will insist on lintels being
put in.

Is this synopsis about right? Are there 'special' uPVC windows available
which would legitimately obviate the need for fitting this lintel? I'm
looking at selling up pretty soon, so tbh I have to say I don't really have
a vested interest in ensuring the new windows last for 30 years...!

Finally - before I get into WRC plc hell, has anyone got a ballpark figure
for what I might be quoted for a full replacement job? It's a two bedroom
terraced with 7 reasonably large windows.

Cheers
Dave

You can easily get upvc windows, like mine, which are fully steel
re-inforced.
But are you sure there that your lintels aren't in fact "boot-lintels"
where its not obvious on the outside that there is a lintel on the outer
leaf?
I had a house survey failed by a vendor's surveyor because he thought
there were no lintels on the outer leafs. My surveyor sent him a page
from a text book showing that in fact it was a fairly common occurance
of a hidden lintel. Vendor's ignorant surveyor, egg on face, backed down
and sale went through.

"Old Bill" wrote in message
...
Dave P wrote:

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete)
lintels fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't
nothing over the outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I
go to a FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones
without adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle,
nobody will be any the wiser. But if I diy, then I have to go through
Building Control don't I; and you can bet your life they will insist on
lintels being put in.

You can easily get upvc windows, like mine, which are fully steel
re-inforced.

Now that's really interesting: news to me. Presumably these are
building-regs compliant? Who sells them?

But are you sure there that your lintels aren't in fact "boot-lintels"
where its not obvious on the outside that there is a lintel on the outer
leaf?

Well... I have looked into this, and a structural engineer friend told me he
was sure there weren't any. Definitely there's nothing visible on the
outside: you can see the bottom face of all the bricks on the outer leaf
(well, the 50% which is visible in front of the top of the window frame,
anyway). There's also a diagonal crack therough the brick joints heading up
for about 6 courses, at 45 deg, from the corner of one wiondow. Is it
*possible* there's some form of lintel in there? Would save me a lot of
grief!! How can I tell for sure without without taking a window out?

Cheers
Dave

Dave P wrote:
"Old Bill" wrote in message
...

Dave P wrote:

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete)
lintels fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't
nothing over the outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I
go to a FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones
without adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle,
nobody will be any the wiser. But if I diy, then I have to go through
Building Control don't I; and you can bet your life they will insist on
lintels being put in.

You can easily get upvc windows, like mine, which are fully steel
re-inforced.

Now that's really interesting: news to me. Presumably these are
building-regs compliant? Who sells them?

But are you sure there that your lintels aren't in fact "boot-lintels"
where its not obvious on the outside that there is a lintel on the outer
leaf?

Well... I have looked into this, and a structural engineer friend told me he
was sure there weren't any. Definitely there's nothing visible on the
outside: you can see the bottom face of all the bricks on the outer leaf
(well, the 50% which is visible in front of the top of the window frame,
anyway). There's also a diagonal crack therough the brick joints heading up
for about 6 courses, at 45 deg, from the corner of one wiondow. Is it
*possible* there's some form of lintel in there? Would save me a lot of
grief!! How can I tell for sure without without taking a window out?

Cheers
Dave

The steel reinforced upvc windows are often specced for bay windows in
older houses where the orig bay frame is supporting the stuff above.
The Kommerling ones fitted for me by
http://www.allstylewindows.co.uk/prodwindows.html have it as standard.

Cowboy upvc outfits, e.g. Anglian, won't bother.
Anyway, it could be your walls don't have a lintels and maybe should
have them fitted to avoid collapse.

Dave P wrote:
"Old Bill" wrote in message
...

Dave P wrote:

Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete)
lintels fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't
nothing over the outer leaf. Now, I have absolutely no doubt that if I
go to a FENSA-registered WRC plc, they will happily bung in new uPVC ones
without adding lintels, and until the frames start sagging in the middle,
nobody will be any the wiser. But if I diy, then I have to go through
Building Control don't I; and you can bet your life they will insist on
lintels being put in.

You can easily get upvc windows, like mine, which are fully steel
re-inforced.

Now that's really interesting: news to me. Presumably these are
building-regs compliant? Who sells them?

But are you sure there that your lintels aren't in fact "boot-lintels"
where its not obvious on the outside that there is a lintel on the outer
leaf?

Well... I have looked into this, and a structural engineer friend told me he
was sure there weren't any. Definitely there's nothing visible on the
outside: you can see the bottom face of all the bricks on the outer leaf
(well, the 50% which is visible in front of the top of the window frame,
anyway). There's also a diagonal crack therough the brick joints heading up
for about 6 courses, at 45 deg, from the corner of one wiondow. Is it
*possible* there's some form of lintel in there? Would save me a lot of
grief!! How can I tell for sure without without taking a window out?

Cheers
Dave

See long post by Jarth 17 June 2000 in free.uk.diy.home
Subject "Can't you see mate? I've got double glazing already!"

In article ,
Dave P wrote:
Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete)
lintels fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't
nothing over the outer leaf.

I'd be amazed if this were the case. The average wood window frame just
ain't capable of supporting any part of a wall.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave P wrote:
Problem is that I've discovered that although there are (concrete)
lintels fitted over the inner leaf of the cavity wall, there ain't
nothing over the outer leaf.

I'd be amazed if this were the case. The average wood window frame just
ain't capable of supporting any part of a wall.

Well it would be very nice if you're right about that; however (see earlier
post) this was the diagnosis of a structural engineer. I've just found and
read the post cited by Old Bill (thanks, Old Bill!) which is at:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...818fc381c51658 -
ah, what the hell, here's a cut and paste: below - it makes interesting
reading:

Dave

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jareth
Date: 2000/06/17
Subject: "Can't you see mate? I've got double glazing already!" - PART 1

How we all get ticked off by window companies canvassing for trade - even if
it is blatantly obvious that I already have a full compliment of replacement
windows, roofline, conservatory, porch and even the garage door. I have no
such problem when they call. I put them on the spot and ask "Just what are
the benefits to me of taking out my windows and installing theirs?"

The majority of double-glazing customers know little about the products they
buy. Most buy on price without giving a thought to just how long the company
has been trading or what their track record is. Anyone considering making a
capital investment in their home should first check out with Trading
Standards officers, the Consumer Council, the GGF, local newspapers and
consumer rights programmes/publications.'Safebuy UK', 'CPA', 'Fair Trades'
endorsements do not carry the same level of benefits as the GGF.

Avoid being guided by friends who mean well but who might not be aware of
the shortfalls of their own installation, eg. discoloration, distortion &
warping, splitting and cracking of PVCu, security issues, failure of sealed
units, etc. A warranty which is insurance-backed may not be worth the paper
it's written on.

The exclusion of lintels is the most common practice of many local firms and
some national companies. Did you never wonder how their prices could be so
much lower than everyone elses? How can you tell if you need a lintel?
Indicators could be soldier bricks (vertical or end-on) or creasing tiles
(ceramic) over a window casement. Try sliding a metal rule under the seal at
the top of the window and see if there is the metallic lip of a boot lintel
or beam. If you have plastic windows already see if the is any evidence of
distortion in the horizontal members of the window or door frame. Do windows
and doors catch the frame when closing? Are there cracks in the brickwork
above patio doors and windows? Are any sealed units with cracks running
diagonally? The exclusion of lintels undermines the structural integrity of
your home and contravenes building regulations. Check also for trickle vents
to rooms with a gas supply (even if it is no longer used).

The quality of the product and service will be reflected in both the price
and in the reputation the company has. The local firm frequently are
fabricators and sub-contract out for the manufacture and supply of
components. British Standard Kitemarks and guarantees often are held by the
supplier so any claims made, eg. "Installers of Kitemarked Windows" or
"Security by Design" need to be ignored. If they are not BS EN ISO 9002
registered they cannot make any claim to BS Kitemarks.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
I'd be amazed if this were the case. The average wood window
frame just ain't capable of supporting any part of a wall.

Older casement window frames are quite often 4x2 and will be
stronger than a stud wall because of the shorter length of the
'studs'. Even a modern casement window would probably hold up
quite a weight, though not designed to do so: a 50x75 1.2m long
will hold up 1.3 tons

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm