I'm looking for a system to control a central heating and hot water
system that's divided into several zones, which can be set easily to
cater for 5+2 day usage patterns + holidays + exceptions to the
programmes (e.g. one zone to stay on for a few hours) and where the
holidays & exceptions can be programmed in advance.

The application is for a school: the normal 5+2 pattern will be
schooldays (e.g. heating from 09:00-15:30), it should be possible to
program holidays when the times of these are known, and to program
extensions (such as heating on in zone xyz between 20:00 - 22:00 on
dd/mm/yyyy for meeting etc) as these dates & times become known. Optimum
start for the heating would be an advantage especially as part of the
building has UFH.

Another of the school's buildings (with a heating system independent of
the main school building's) is shared between school and residential use
(in different parts of the building) and there we need one programme
running for the residential part and another, similar to the main school
building's setup, for the other. At the moment this building isn't zoned
at all, but it could be, but we really need a control system that
doesn't necessitate having a dedicated programmer-wallah going round
setting bog-standard programmers all over the place.

Does anyone know of any ready-rolled systems which might meet our needs?
Ideally we want some known quantity that any heating engineer can deal
with if problems arise. I can't find anything in the Honeywell catalogue
(at least not the CD - can't lay my hands on the treeware version) but
maybe there are other manufacturers who cover this market (at a price,
no doubt).

Next best would be some conventional timers/programmers (or programmable
thermostats) which could be programmed remotely through some open (or at
least hackable) interface, so that we could have a PC driving them from
a cron job but if that broke down the system would default to being
human-drivable mode.

To add sauce to the mixture the building with mixed uses is ramshackle
and listed, so we'd probably want wireless control of its system, and
this building houses the office which is where we'd want the main
control system to run from for the school block itself, which is about
200m distant (without anything much better than phone wire linking it).

Oh, and the school is a poor as church mice so it's all got to be really
cheap :-)

So far I've found a list of companies involved BMS systems at
http://www.feta.co.uk/bcia/bcia04.htm and had a look at a couple of the
companies listed there, but I don't know who's who in this business and
would appreciate any pointers to good outfits to look at from the POV of
our requirements.

tia

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:19:39 +0000, John Stumbles
wrote:

I'm looking for a system to control a central heating and hot water
system that's divided into several zones, which can be set easily to
cater for 5+2 day usage patterns + holidays + exceptions to the
programmes (e.g. one zone to stay on for a few hours) and where the
holidays & exceptions can be programmed in advance.

The application is for a school: the normal 5+2 pattern will be
schooldays (e.g. heating from 09:00-15:30), it should be possible to
program holidays when the times of these are known, and to program
extensions (such as heating on in zone xyz between 20:00 - 22:00 on
dd/mm/yyyy for meeting etc) as these dates & times become known. Optimum
start for the heating would be an advantage especially as part of the
building has UFH.

Another of the school's buildings (with a heating system independent of
the main school building's) is shared between school and residential use
(in different parts of the building) and there we need one programme
running for the residential part and another, similar to the main school
building's setup, for the other. At the moment this building isn't zoned
at all, but it could be, but we really need a control system that
doesn't necessitate having a dedicated programmer-wallah going round
setting bog-standard programmers all over the place.

Does anyone know of any ready-rolled systems which might meet our needs?
Ideally we want some known quantity that any heating engineer can deal
with if problems arise. I can't find anything in the Honeywell catalogue
(at least not the CD - can't lay my hands on the treeware version) but
maybe there are other manufacturers who cover this market (at a price,
no doubt).

Next best would be some conventional timers/programmers (or programmable
thermostats) which could be programmed remotely through some open (or at
least hackable) interface, so that we could have a PC driving them from
a cron job but if that broke down the system would default to being
human-drivable mode.

To add sauce to the mixture the building with mixed uses is ramshackle
and listed, so we'd probably want wireless control of its system, and
this building houses the office which is where we'd want the main
control system to run from for the school block itself, which is about
200m distant (without anything much better than phone wire linking it).

Oh, and the school is a poor as church mice so it's all got to be really
cheap :-)

So far I've found a list of companies involved BMS systems at
http://www.feta.co.uk/bcia/bcia04.htm and had a look at a couple of the
companies listed there, but I don't know who's who in this business and
would appreciate any pointers to good outfits to look at from the POV of
our requirements.

tia


I looked at this kind of thing about a year ago and came up with a few
solutions.

It's going to be difficult to meet all the criteria in one product,
though. Is this being done as a normal arm's length commercial job,
John, or are you willing to invest some time into it on the basis of
the status of the customer?

- SmartKontrols/Seachange. www.smartkontrols.co.uk
www.seachange.co.uk

I believe that the Smartkontrols stuff is from the Seachange range,
scaled down to a complex domestic environment. There's a whole bunch
of interfaces and I'm pretty sure it would cover the requirement here.


- I found a small UK firm with a boiler energy management and zone
control product that had been used by a few local authorities. I
can't find the link any more unfortunately and am not sure how many
zones. It was more like a domestic controller on steroids though.

- You could talk to Comfort Home Controls. www.comfort.org.uk Their
system has an interface to the Honeywell Smartfit system, but AIUI,
only to one. Their system is reasonably priced and could drive a load
of stuff through relay outputs. There are dealers as well and a good
support mail group. I've got one of these, as has Andrew Gabriel,
although mine is not involved in the heating. Watch out for the
module prices though, they mount up.

- If you're prepared to invest some time in it or can get somebody
reasonably sentient to do so, there are some good PLC packages around.
For example, I've been looking at a Crouzet Millenium 2 for a project.
You can get a starter kit version from RS (e.g. 413-4056) which has 12
inputs and 8 relay outputs (expansion modules available), an LCD
display and keypad, programming software for a PC including an
application library; all for £165. You can program and use EPROM
modules. I think that that's about as cheap as it will get and again
cover the lot, but there is a question over whether "any heating
engineer" could cope with it.

Equally though, I wonder whether "any heating engineer" could
necessarily cope with anything beyond basic heating controls. Any of
the building energy management systems probably imply a contract with
the supplier. Then you have to ask whether you want to remain in the
loop.








--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

John Stumbles wrote:
I'm looking for a system to control a central heating and hot water
system

The specification for this system is beyond the capabilities of
domestic controllers. You could get it to run with a collection of
domestic controlers, but you'd have to abandon any hope of central
control.

IMHO, I think you'd be best advised to go with the commercial BMS
option. The additional capital expense could probably be recovered in
the reduced running costs. All my experience has been with Trend
http://www.trend-controls.com/index.asp
This proved to be a very reliable and adaptable system. I think it was
the best option, but I've no experience of systems suppied by other
manufacturers, so probably can't make a comparison.

I've been on the lookout for a control system with abilities and
adaptability of BMS. There isn't one as yet, SFAIK. Callefi were
rolling out a system in the US which looked interesting, but it's not
yet available in the EU.

This is a commercial system so go with the big commercial boys: Honeywell, Landis & Gyr (Landis & Staefa/Seimens), Johnson Controls, etc. Their controls intermesh with the BES system, rather than have a control system and one to monitor and switch, which is having essentially two.

Using domestic controllers is possible, but you will have basically separate systems with all user interfaces all in one location. Sometimes this works just as well, and if analogue visual controls, you can see what the settiing are all at a glance, rather than flipping through a computer screen. It is usually easier to maintain and trouble shoot too. Look at The Honeywell CM67 web site. I recall they had a number off them linked up for a commercial setup

BES systems are only viable in a large system. With small commercials it is somtimes difficult to financially justify.

"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...

John Stumbles wrote:
I'm looking for a system to control a central heating and hot water
system

The specification for this system is beyond the capabilities of
domestic controllers. You could get it to run with a collection of
domestic controlers, but you'd have to abandon any hope of central
control.

IMHO, I think you'd be best advised to go with the commercial BMS
option. The additional capital expense could probably be recovered in
the reduced running costs. All my experience has been with Trend
http://www.trend-controls.com/index.asp
This proved to be a very reliable and adaptable system. I think it was
the best option, but I've no experience of systems suppied by other
manufacturers, so probably can't make a comparison.

I've been on the lookout for a control system with abilities and
adaptability of BMS. There isn't one as yet, SFAIK. Callefi were
rolling out a system in the US which looked interesting, but it's not
yet available in the EU.


Heres a few companies from a first search

AMS Ltd - Kidderminster
Andover Controls Europe Ltd - Ashby de la Zouch
Ashdown Control Services Ltd - Crowborough
Camrascan Ltd - Peterborough
Combined Services GB Ltd - High Wycombe
Daikin Airconditioning UK - Woking
Dalkia plc - Staines
DSA Facilities Management - Farnborough
ENV Surveys Ltd - Brighton
Fairburn Engineering Ltd - Hull
FHP Engineering Services Solutions - Manchester
Future Electrical Services Ltd - Stansted
Hayes Control Systems - Henley on Thames
Industrial Drives and Controls Ltd - Stockport
Palcon Systems Ltd - High Wycombe
Realtime Control Systems - Watford
SES Controls Ltd - Petersfield
Severn Controls Ltd - Stonehouse
Smart Kontrols - Uckfield
Swift Automation and Control Systems Ltd - Carlisle
Systems Controls and Instruments (UK) Ltd - Chertsey